Should the United States have better gun control ???

[Metalsmith]

 

[Badbart]

Just read the news this morning and I see the crazy people are still at it. A woman pushed a man to his death in front of a subway train yesterday in New York and a homeless woman in Los Angelos was set on fire while she slept on a park bench.

 

[HARDTRAILZ]

We need to control and ban mass transit and fire...

 

[Hatchet]

 

[blazinlow89]

Just read the news this morning and I see the crazy people are still at it. A woman pushed a man to his death in front of a subway train yesterday in New York and a homeless woman in Los Angelos was set on fire while she slept on a park bench.

Stories like this won't make national headline news as it has nothing to offer as an advantage to the liberal medias anti gun agenda.

On another note I have seen alot of conflicting news stories about the Sandy Hook incident.

Police: 20 children among 26 victims of Connecticut school shooting - CNN.com

This is an earlier one which says the Bushmaster was found in the car when police arrived on scene, and only the Glock and the Sig had been found on the shooter. Which goes against other reports that have said only the Bushmaster was used during the shooting, except the Sig which was the weapon used for suicide. I have issues when news networks cannot get facts straight. While this is an early story, it shows alot of how early on some things may be correct and the media will tailor the story the get different results from the reader. I would like to see an official police report too, but I know that could take months.

I have also seen some really crazy conspiracy theories on this entire chain of events.

 

[blazinlow89]

To go along with this

 

[Bartonmd]

Stories like this won't make national headline news as it has nothing to offer as an advantage to the liberal medias anti gun agenda.

On another note I have seen alot of conflicting news stories about the Sandy Hook incident.

Police: 20 children among 26 victims of Connecticut school shooting - CNN.com

This is an earlier one which says the Bushmaster was found in the car when police arrived on scene, and only the Glock and the Sig had been found on the shooter. Which goes against other reports that have said only the Bushmaster was used during the shooting, except the Sig which was the weapon used for suicide. I have issues when news networks cannot get facts straight. While this is an early story, it shows alot of how early on some things may be correct and the media will tailor the story the get different results from the reader. I would like to see an official police report too, but I know that could take months.

I have also seen some really crazy conspiracy theories on this entire chain of events.

Here is one that aired later: Investigation is 'very complex' - Video on TODAY.com

Says 4 pistols in the school, AR-15 found left in the car, and was never in the school. This was so much of a "we're waiting for one of these to happen after the election, to turn it into a media circuis, to push our political agenda" that it's hard to know what to believe.

What sucks is that the main stories that they're going with, now, don't match the video and 911 calls from the time of the incident, giving these conspiracy theories legs. One cop radios in that he has "them" proned out, outside the school, and others pull a guy dressed in black and stuff out of the nearby woods. Teacher locked herself and students in the bathroom, and wouldn't let the police in, because she thought they were the gunMEN who were lying to her. The news was saying that it was Adam's brother that was the shooter, and was dead, and that his girlfriend was missing from thier apartment (some saying she was dead), before the cops even showed up at the appt. Adam's brother saw himself on the news and posted on Facebook that he was still alive and not the shooter. Was he being set up to be a patsie, and messed it up by posting on FB? (seen the movie Shooter? where they know a suspicious amount about him like 5 minutes after it happened?) Were the 3 guys that they found, the hit team, that they later found out what it was and let them go? They say that his brother had his ID, but he says he hadn't seen his brother in 2 years. The memorial page for one of the teachers that died has an account creation date of 4 days before the shooting. There is not one single living witness that saw the shooter. You never see the AR-15 being carried out of the building (if it were, the media would have been ALL OVER IT, posting it as a video clip every time they talked about an AWB) or coming from his car, but from the helicopter footage, you can see the cops finding and unloading a Sagia 12ga in the trunk of his car. The father that didn't know he was on camera before an interview, laughing and joking with people around him, then you can see him "getting into charactor" and looking all sad right before he thinks the cameras are going to turn on. It's hard to tell what's just bad journalism, with journalists taking guesses based on tips, and wanting their -whatever- prize for getting "the scoop" and what is the "facts" just plain not matching the facts.

Mike

 

[Badbart]

Maybe we should just ban the media.....

 

[Bartonmd]

What sucks is that there really isn't any REAL unbiased media, any more. Fox is the "right media" and the other 4 are the "left media". Everybody is owned by somebody that has a stake or an ideaology in making a particular side look like they're "less bad". There's no real solution for it, that I know of. Can't heavily regulate it, because then it REALLY becomes the "government propaganda machine" (which some would say, most of it currently is).

Oh, and just in case anybody thinks that "all they want to take off the streets are the AWB and standard design capacity magazines, and they'll stop there," here's an interesting article from a couple years ago in England: BBC NEWS | Health | Doctors' kitchen knives ban call "A&E doctors are calling for a ban on long pointed kitchen knives to reduce deaths from stabbing."

Mike

 

[HARDTRAILZ]

The only way to fix the media is to forget the first amendment because it only applies to times when they used paper and a quill to write the news, much as the 2nd amendment is only about muskets...

 

[blazinlow89]

I thought the original theory behind the 2nd amendment was to prevent the formation of a totalitarian government, and to keep the government in control of the people. This to me is also a major reason no country has tried for an all out total invasion of the US mainland during a war. If the citizens are not armed it makes their job a hell of a lot easier to gain control.

Barton you are 100% correct, if the AR-15 had made even a glimpse it would have been put on display like the Stan. Cup with reporters taking guesses as to how it may have been modified to be an even more ruthless killing machine.

The constitution was put in place to protect our individual rights. Whether you agree or disagree with what some one says they have he same universal right. However it seems these days people get upset at the simplest things, a Christmas tree, a manger in front of a church, the star of david at a business, the American flag on display by a veteran in front of his own house. It seems people want to make everyone as miserable as themselves. What happened to unity amongst the community. This should not be something that is embraced after a tragedy, it should be constant. People are too worried about themselves, too worried about someone else being offended but something they may not be. There will be a time when the government can not protect each and every individual citizen and we as a nation may required to defend our rights. However the way some of these public officials and politicians speak that may be part of the plan.

 

[xj2202009]

Assault weapons have no business in the hands of civilians and guns have no place in schools. I you buy a hunting rifle and modify it to be an assault weapon then you should be charged with posession of an assault weapon. I understand that a pencil in a trained hand is as dangerous as a knife or hand gun, but how many people can you poke in the eye before someone takes that pencil away and woops your as. Having cops have not ceased crime but things would be alot worse without them. A six year old with twenty bullet holes is just.. There no words to describe it, not in the greatest country in the world. and anyone who is ok with that we need to strip of all guns not just assault weapons.

 

[Bartonmd]

Assault weapons have no business in the hands of civilians and guns have no place in schools. I you buy a hunting rifle and modify it to be an assault weapon then you should be charged with posession of an assault weapon. I understand that a pencil in a trained hand is as dangerous as a knife or hand gun, but how many people can you poke in the eye before someone takes that pencil away and woops your as. Having cops have not ceased crime but things would be alot worse without them. A six year old with twenty bullet holes is just.. There no words to describe it, not in the greatest country in the world. and anyone who is ok with that we need to strip of all guns not just assault weapons.

You may want to consider the facts and statistics, rather than purely emotions, to make up your mind about things like this. This has all been settled in this thread, already.

Mike

 

[Hypnotoad]

Assault weapons have no business in the hands of civilians and guns have no place in schools. I you buy a hunting rifle and modify it to be an assault weapon then you should be charged with posession of an assault weapon. I understand that a pencil in a trained hand is as dangerous as a knife or hand gun, but how many people can you poke in the eye before someone takes that pencil away and woops your as. Having cops have not ceased crime but things would be alot worse without them. A six year old with twenty bullet holes is just.. There no words to describe it, not in the greatest country in the world. and anyone who is ok with that we need to strip of all guns not just assault weapons.

No one has ever defined what an assault weapon is. Every time someone shoots up a school, federal building, airport, etc. the media tells us that assault weapons were used. Most times the weapon used is a semi auto hunting rifle or hand gun. If a rifle has a black stock or a legs, everyone thinks it's an assault rifle.

 

[HARDTRAILZ]

Assault weapons have no business in the hands of civilians and guns have no place in schools. I you buy a hunting rifle and modify it to be an assault weapon then you should be charged with posession of an assault weapon. I understand that a pencil in a trained hand is as dangerous as a knife or hand gun, but how many people can you poke in the eye before someone takes that pencil away and woops your as. Having cops have not ceased crime but things would be alot worse without them. A six year old with twenty bullet holes is just.. There no words to describe it, not in the greatest country in the world. and anyone who is ok with that we need to strip of all guns not just assault weapons.

Wow. I am deeply saddened by this post. It shows much of what is truly wrong with this country. Emotion, not facts or experience being used to base arguments on. Wrong terminology in the statements. Misspellings and a general lack grammar and punctuation showing a lack of decency to post something intelligent in a thread full of professional and polite debate.



Can you explain what an assault rifle is?

Is it actually possible to modify a hunting rifle to be an assault weapon?

How much crime is deterred by police presence? Should we place this presence in schools, since it has proved effective in protecting our money and politicians?

Not one person in this thread has been "ok" with the slaughter of those innocent children or adults. I can agree that someone deranged enough to approve of such an act should not possess weapons.

 

[blazinlow89]

Assault weapons have no business in the hands of civilians and guns have no place in schools. I you buy a hunting rifle and modify it to be an assault weapon then you should be charged with posession of an assault weapon. I understand that a pencil in a trained hand is as dangerous as a knife or hand gun, but how many people can you poke in the eye before someone takes that pencil away and woops your as. Having cops have not ceased crime but things would be alot worse without them. A six year old with twenty bullet holes is just.. There no words to describe it, not in the greatest country in the world. and anyone who is ok with that we need to strip of all guns not just assault weapons.

Your post is very confusing, from what I gather you are either anti gun altogether or anti scary gun. Please show me the true definition of an assault weapon, what is an assault weapon, what does it look like, what size rounds does it shoot? I will say right now that the congressional/media definition is not an assault weapon, that definition is BS.

The debate has moved onto the true issue several times which is that people have no respect for, or do not understand guns. Most of these massacres happened with guns not owned by the assailant, the reason being they either could not own, possess or be within the vicinity of a gun. The other reason being they had psychiatric problems that prevent them from owning guns. Think about this point for a second, the shooter had no issue killing his own mother to gain possession of the weapons. He had a history of psychiatric problems and was on medication (which is not a fix for alot of peoples problems) to counteract the problems he had. Had the guns been stored properly, had the locks on to prevent unauthorized use this may have not happened at all. Then again he may have taken the guns from someone else.

No one will disagree with you that shooting innocent school children is immoral, wrong and just plain fucked up. Those kids died for no reason and it is tragic. I will disagree with this fact and will say that any person who even has the idea that it is in any form ok has some very serious issues.

Now to the point of the cops, some version of police has existed since the dawn of modern civilization. They are there to protect the innocent civilians from criminals. I am talking as far back and before Roman times, even as far back as when Egypt beginning to become civilized. The problem is that you do not have a police officer on every corner to protect you in the even of a crime, you do not have a personal body guard to protect you. In the event that you are met with force by a criminal the police may not show up until 5-10 minutes after the incident. Depending on the criminal that may be too late. Most middle and high schools these days have 1-2 cops on staff because well developing teenage boys like to play rough, sometimes it gets out of hand. While and armed guard in every school may prevent some of these issues, it will not prevent all of them.

This is one reason I am ok with teachers being allowed to carry in school, concealed too. The students should not know which teachers are armed, the same goes for someone who wants to go try and commit mass murder of the nations youth. The teachers should have to have proper training and screening so that they can handle these situations if the need ever arises. Think about this had the principle been armed or a guard posted at the front office, the shooter may not have made it very far and the casualty rate could have been 1, the shooter.

We do not need more gun control, we need criminal control. Why would a criminal be scared to walk around with a loaded gun knowing that if he gets arrested he could be released the same night on bond. There is nothing to make a criminal think that if they get caught it will result in severe consequences. Criminals are creatures of habit, they tend to revert back to crime when released from jail. I mean why not, go to jail get fed 3 times a day, free place to sleep, you get to hang out with your buddies all day, do not need to go to work, work out and watch tv. Its like getting a free stay in a Ramada inn.

I believe no citizen who is not confident, or does not know the consequences, or responsibility of owning an automatic weapon should be able to own one, which by the way in MD is illegal and you need a class 3 license to even own one. They are not easy to get and most of the people that collect automatic weapons have them for the purpose of collecting or putting on display. Most of the weapons I am talking about require 2 guys to operate and cannot be carried and shot at the same time. Then we come to weapons like the UZI, SMG's and the such. These are very hard to own and get a hold of and are very expensive. Your average person may never see one that still works (firing pin removed as well as other components to prevent functionality), the people that do own them are gun dealers who cannot sell them to general public legally.

The point I am trying to make is that the law abiding citizen is not the person to worry about, it is the criminal. More laws will not prevent a criminal from doing harm. My other point is that treating people for psychiatric problems is not either handled properly, or the person is not receiving proper care or getting evaluated frequently. Proper treatment no longer exist, the doctor gives you a pill, if you do not take the pill it is hard to way what might happen.

 

[HARDTRAILZ]

I believe no citizen should be able to own an automatic weapon, which by the way is illegal and you need a class 3 license to even own one. They are not easy to get and most of the people that collect automatic weapons have them for the purpose of collecting or putting on display. Most of the weapons I am talking about require 2 guys to operate and cannot be carried and shot at the same time. Then we come to weapons like the UZI, SMG's and the such. These are very hard to own and get a hold of and are very expensive. Your average person may never see one that still works (firing pin removed as well as other components to prevent functionality), the people that do own them are gun dealers who cannot sell them to general public legally.

The first part of this is extremely contradictory. Every person has and should have the right to own an automatic weapon! At present, most have the chance to and do need a Class 3 permit, which requires a tax stamp, waiting period and background check. Pretty good safety measures, but does not prevent the upstanding citizen from owning one.

I see far more used than I do on display, but I live in a different part of this country. I know where a couple people keep automatics in their living rooms. One is a police officer.

Most auto's I see are single person weapons. Fairly common and quite useful when suppressive fire is needed.

UZI...saw my first functioning one at 12 years old. SMG...I assume is sub-machine gun. They have machine gun shoots, so I would imagine far more function than you believe.

I can drive to a half dozen or more Class 3 dealers in under an hour and, as general public, legally buy an UZI, SMG, suppressor, grenade, so long as I buy the stamp and submit to the wait and background check.

Also, most gun dealers do not hold them in inventory. There is no money in that. Most owners are John Q. Public and if you want to buy one, a dealer helps you locate one from an owner or another dealer that happens to have one, not pulls one out of the back room.

 

[Bartonmd]

Hunting rifles... Yeah, I'm cool with that...

My deer rifle:

My groundhog/coyote rifle:

One of my squirrel rifles:

 

[HARDTRAILZ]

I you buy a hunting rifle and modify it to be an assault weapon then you should be charged with posession of an assault weapon.

Which is an assault rifle?

 

[blazinlow89]

The first part of this is extremely contradictory. Every person has and should have the right to own an automatic weapon! At present, most have the chance to and do need a Class 3 permit, which requires a tax stamp, waiting period and background check. Pretty good safety measures, but does not prevent the upstanding citizen from owning one.

I see far more used than I do on display, but I live in a different part of this country. I know where a couple people keep automatics in their living rooms. One is a police officer.

Most auto's I see are single person weapons. Fairly common and quite useful when suppressive fire is needed.

UZI...saw my first functioning one at 12 years old. SMG...I assume is sub-machine gun. They have machine gun shoots, so I would imagine far more function than you believe.

I can drive to a half dozen or more Class 3 dealers in under an hour and, as general public, legally buy an UZI, SMG, suppressor, grenade, so long as I buy the stamp and submit to the wait and background check.

Also, most gun dealers do not hold them in inventory. There is no money in that. Most owners are John Q. Public and if you want to buy one, a dealer helps you locate one from an owner or another dealer that happens to have one, not pulls one out of the back room.

Sorry Kyle I should clarify my statement of "no citizen" (I will edit my post to reflect as well). I am talking your average person who may have only shot a rifle, shotgun or handgun. Not your avid shooter who does it for sport and has the time under stand what he weapon is capable of.

Look at my location lol, I live in the east coast California. Suppressors are illegal, grenades I wish, we have some of the most ridiculous gun laws in the country. I will admit I am ignorant when it comes to alot of other states, and if Sons of Guns has taught me anything you can own anything in Louisiana. For me to buy a gun I must purchase the gun either from a dealer or online, online it has to be shipped to an FFL, then I can submit for a background check (first time for handguns), wait 7-14 days and then pick up the weapon once everything is cleared. It is easier the times after that, and we are restricted to one handgun purchase every 30 days.

I have seen dealers here with class 3 weapons but they are illegal for sale in this state. Can only be sold to out of state residents.

I know it may different for you guys in other states where guns are not frowned upon in the hands of law abiding citizens. Luckily for me when I was younger my uncle was a gun dealer, he had access to class 3 weapons and we would shoot in the land behind my mothers house. I want to say the first time I got to shoot an UZI was around 8, most people around here even people who are avid hunters have never seen some of the weapons. . I apologize for confusion with my post as I was mainly referring to how it is in this state.

I will be buying my first handgun registered in my name in march. Springfield XD 9MM. I have shot plenty and own a couple of rifles and shotguns, but I have wanted a pistol for a while. Also our states CCW laws are likely to change when the case goes to the supreme court, right now we are a may issue state and to get issues a CCW is quite difficult for your average citizen. The court said that the laws violate our rights of the 2nd amendment, the state police requested a stay of current laws which was granted for 18 months. The stay ends in April, at which point the case will go back to the court for final ruling. I have been watching closely.

My uncle is getting back into dealing and still has some of his weapons from when he was a dealer. He used to own a 50 cal with bi pod which was insanely awesome, even cooler when he would shoot at things like old washers and dryers with an incendiary round.

 

[HARDTRAILZ]

My uncle is getting back into dealing and still has some of his weapons from when he was a dealer. He used to own a 50 cal with bi pod which was insanely awesome, even cooler when he would shoot at things like old washers and dryers with an incendiary round.

Play with some Tannerite sometime. If want to blow stuff up....this stuff is fairly cheap and fun.

 

[blazinlow89]

Play with some Tannerite sometime. If want to blow stuff up....this stuff is fairly cheap and fun.

That stuff is awesome. My uncle used to get them when we would go shooting on his friends farm. IIRC it was banned in MD Oct 2012.

My post was edited to reflect my bad wording.

 

[Short Bus]

Play with some Tannerite sometime. If want to blow stuff up....this stuff is fairly cheap and fun.

5LB. under a rail road tie =

 

[HARDTRAILZ]

LP tanks, Gas tank, Acetylene tank..... Hmmmm

 

[xj2202009]

You may want to consider the facts and statistics, rather than purely emotions, to make up your mind about things like this. This has all been settled in this thread, already.

Mike

Well Mike perhaps your comment here is as emotional as my post.

Wow. I am deeply saddened by this post. It shows much of what is truly wrong with this country. Emotion, not facts or experience being used to base arguments on. Wrong terminology in the statements. Misspellings and a general lack grammar and punctuation showing a lack of decency to post something intelligent in a thread full of professional and polite debate.



Can you explain what an assault rifle is?

Is it actually possible to modify a hunting rifle to be an assault weapon? Unless I misunderstood someone in a previous post suggested that is possible and I was commenting to that.

How much crime is deterred by police presence?In my school alot
Should we place this presence in schools, since it has proved effective in protecting our money and politicians? Why don't we vote for politicians who will protect us and not their ow greed.

Not one person in this thread has been "ok" with the slaughter of those innocent children or adults. I can agree that someone deranged enough to approve of such an act should not possess weapons.

Well HARDTRAILZ I can also say "It shows much of what is truly wrong with this country." people who believe their ideals are correct and everyone else is wrong simply because they need their way.
"Misspellings and a general lack grammar and punctuation showing a lack of decency to post something intelligent in a thread full of professional and polite debate."
"Change starts with the man in the mirror".

"Emotion, not facts or experience being used to base arguments on. How many shootouts did your high school have? how many classmates died within two square miles of your school? How many of your classmates guts got splattered all over the side? I can't find it on your "fact sheet".

"Wrong terminology in the statements." I give you that.. I am not a gun expert and have not interest in being one.
Can you explain what an assault rifle is? I can not, if you can then by all means.

 

[Hypnotoad]

It's always shocked me that the story of the principal who held a school shooter at gun point and saved several lives, was never covered by the major media.

http://www.davekopel.com/2a/othwr/principal&gun.htm

How can this story be ignored?!?! Unbelieveable.

 

[Badbart]

It has been reported that the killer in Newtown, Ct. never engaged with the assault rifle. My understanding is that all of the killing was done with two semi-auto pistols. My contention is that if a law enforcement officer had been on campus the killer could have been stopped. If the school had been equipped with cameras and an LEO was monitoring them and saw this young man approaching the school, this incident could have been ended before it started possibly.
In all reality, with no LEO present, do you realize that the killer could have entered that school with a baseball bat and killed as many or more children and adults? And I say possibly more due, in part, that no gunshots would have been heard. Would that make this crime less horrible? Would that prompt lawmakers to ask for a ban on baseball bats? There are 11.8 million baseball bats sold to Little Leaguers alone every year. If this was the weapon of choice would that shift the blame away from assault rifles? What about shotguns? At close range, like inside of a school, they are more deadly than a rifle, easily capable of taking out several people with one shot. So if they ban the assault rifles, will the crazy people then steal shotguns to commit these crimes? And, by the way, a Saiga 12 gauge can can use 20 round drum magazines. Think that's for skeet shooting? Just a few things to think about....

 

[Badbart]

It's always shocked me that the story of the principal who held a school shooter at gun point and saved several lives, was never covered by the major media.

A principal and his gun

How can this story be ignored?!?! Unbelieveable.

Very simple. The leftist media wants to cast guns and gunowners in a negative light. This would do nothing to further that cause. Quite the opposite really.

 

[Hypnotoad]

Can you explain what an assault rifle is? I can not, if you can then by all means.

They're loaded words that appeal to your emotions. The point is that no one knows what an assault weapon is. Yet the media uses these words in reference to any kind of gun. When your average Joe hears these words, they think of machine guns, Uzis, guns with large scopes or bayonets.

 

[Badbart]

They're loaded words that appeal to your emotions. The point is that no one knows what an assault weapon is. Yet the media uses these words in reference to any kind of gun. When your average Joe hears these words, they think of machine guns, Uzis, guns with large scopes or bayonets.

I guess before they can ban them, they'll have to define them....that could take time. We're talking about Washington here....

 

[BO TIE SS]

This thread is once again starting to head the wrong direction. The personal attacks need to stop.

Stay on topic and remain civil toward one another. It's not too much to ask.

 

[Badbart]

No need to get pissy guys, that doesn't accomplish anything. I know it's a frustrating topic due to the nature of the crime and that the death of children is involved, but the facts are a bit slow in coming in and many seem to want a "right now" fix, regardless of whether it's effective or not. If you can't discuss this without losing your temper, then just watch from the sidelines.

 

[xj2202009]

I apologize for lack of explanation. I have no problem with the guns, my ordeal is with who's finger is on the trigger.
1. Since we have irresponsible adults and zero accountability for them and the criminals then we need stronger laws. Case in point, this lady new she had a nut job of a son, she did not need to have those guns regardless whether she kept them secure or not. As a civilian I can not see a need for a cabinet full of guns to protect my home and definitely not of full automatics.
The way I see it:
If you had twenty people standing around and a gun man with a semi or full automatic weapon. The gun man would have an advantage over the mob of people
who would try to knock him down and disarm him before he takes out everybody vs if he had a revolver, shotgun or whatever category these kind of guns fall under.
The point of my scenario is twenty people vs a single person with a gun. What kind of gun would give the gunman the list advantage over the crowd.
My understanding is that a twelve gauge shotgun can penetrate twenty people but it would be very hard for one person to line up twenty people. I understand in this scenario there would still be deaths but not as many as with the semi and definitely not as much as with the full automatic.

In the late 80's, if I remember correctly. I was reading in a gun magazine that you can get the "44 magnum" in a semi pistol (don't remember if was with a 13,15 or 17 round magazine). The other option was in a machine gun style of gun that was capable of shooting 1000 rounds a minute and was no bigger than probably average size toy water riffle and the rounds where in a chain that went in one side and straight out the other. The second one scared the hell out of me. This was over twenty years ago and I hope this kind of gun is no longer in production.

In Florida we have the "10-20 to life"and I don't think that is being used, unless we just have "Big Balls" Floridians or just pure dumb asses. Why don't we upgrade that to "10-20 to immediate death sentence" across the country.


By the way, thank you for the professional reply it does proof we have professional folks in here.

Your post is very confusing, from what I gather you are either anti gun altogether or anti scary gun.
Please show me the true definition of an assault weapon, what is an assault weapon, what does it look like, what size rounds does it shoot? I will say right now that the congressional/media definition is not an assault weapon, that definition is BS.

The debate has moved onto the true issue several times which is that people have no respect for, or do not understand guns. Most of these massacres happened with guns not owned by the assailant, the reason being they either could not own, possess or be within the vicinity of a gun. The other reason being they had psychiatric problems that prevent them from owning guns. Think about this point for a second, the shooter had no issue killing his own mother to gain possession of the weapons. He had a history of psychiatric problems and was on medication (which is not a fix for alot of peoples problems) to counteract the problems he had. Had the guns been stored properly, had the locks on to prevent unauthorized use this may have not happened at all. Then again he may have taken the guns from someone else.

No one will disagree with you that shooting innocent school children is immoral, wrong and just plain fucked up. Those kids died for no reason and it is tragic. I will disagree with this fact and will say that any person who even has the idea that it is in any form ok has some very serious issues.

Now to the point of the cops, some version of police has existed since the dawn of modern civilization. They are there to protect the innocent civilians from criminals. I am talking as far back and before Roman times, even as far back as when Egypt beginning to become civilized. The problem is that you do not have a police officer on every corner to protect you in the even of a crime, you do not have a personal body guard to protect you. In the event that you are met with force by a criminal the police may not show up until 5-10 minutes after the incident. Depending on the criminal that may be too late. Most middle and high schools these days have 1-2 cops on staff because well developing teenage boys like to play rough, sometimes it gets out of hand. While and armed guard in every school may prevent some of these issues, it will not prevent all of them.

This is one reason I am ok with teachers being allowed to carry in school, concealed too. The students should not know which teachers are armed, the same goes for someone who wants to go try and commit mass murder of the nations youth. The teachers should have to have proper training and screening so that they can handle these situations if the need ever arises. Think about this had the principle been armed or a guard posted at the front office, the shooter may not have made it very far and the casualty rate could have been 1, the shooter.

We do not need more gun control, we need criminal control. Why would a criminal be scared to walk around with a loaded gun knowing that if he gets arrested he could be released the same night on bond. There is nothing to make a criminal think that if they get caught it will result in severe consequences. Criminals are creatures of habit, they tend to revert back to crime when released from jail. I mean why not, go to jail get fed 3 times a day, free place to sleep, you get to hang out with your buddies all day, do not need to go to work, work out and watch tv. Its like getting a free stay in a Ramada inn.

I believe no citizen who is not confident, or does not know the consequences, or responsibility of owning an automatic weapon should be able to own one, which by the way in MD is illegal and you need a class 3 license to even own one. They are not easy to get and most of the people that collect automatic weapons have them for the purpose of collecting or putting on display. Most of the weapons I am talking about require 2 guys to operate and cannot be carried and shot at the same time. Then we come to weapons like the UZI, SMG's and the such. These are very hard to own and get a hold of and are very expensive. Your average person may never see one that still works (firing pin removed as well as other components to prevent functionality), the people that do own them are gun dealers who cannot sell them to general public legally.

The point I am trying to make is that the law abiding citizen is not the person to worry about, it is the criminal. More laws will not prevent a criminal from doing harm. My other point is that treating people for psychiatric problems is not either handled properly, or the person is not receiving proper care or getting evaluated frequently. Proper treatment no longer exist, the doctor gives you a pill, if you do not take the pill it is hard to way what might happen.

 

[mikeinDE]

Saw this one on the news yesterday:


3 Cops Shot: Gunman Dead in NJ Police Station Shooting | NBC 10 Philadelphia


Dude actually thought he would make it out of the police station??

 

[Short Bus]

I apologize for lack of explanation. I have no problem with the guns, my ordeal is with who's finger is on the trigger.
1. Since we have irresponsible adults and zero accountability for them and the criminals then we need stronger laws. Case in point, this lady new she had a nut job of a son, she did not need to have those guns regardless whether she kept them secure or not. As a civilian I can not see a need for a cabinet full of guns to protect my home and definitely not of full automatics.

Anyone with a nut job relative shouldn't own guns? That eliminates most if not everyone.

She didn't have the right to have more than 1 gun so she'll have a gun that best fits the need that arises? Try picking 1 or 2 tools to work on your truck and that's all you get.

Full automatics are heavily regulated and expensive.

The way I see it:
If you had twenty people standing around and a gun man with a semi or full automatic weapon. The gun man would have an advantage over the mob of people
who would try to knock him down and disarm him before he takes out everybody vs if he had a revolver, shotgun or whatever category these kind of guns fall under.
The point of my scenario is twenty people vs a single person with a gun. What kind of gun would give the gunman the list advantage over the crowd.
My understanding is that a twelve gauge shotgun can penetrate twenty people but it would be very hard for one person to line up twenty people. I understand in this scenario there would still be deaths but not as many as with the semi and definitely not as much as with the full automatic.

Your understanding is WAY OFF With a semi auto after the bad guy shot the first shot the crowd (like all the good guys are going to be standing around in a crowd anyway, but that's the way you see it) would scatter and take cover/engage the bad guy, but being armed now they can defend themselves instead of JUST calling 911 to let the police know they'll have a mess to clean up because the law prevented them from protecting themselves.

With a full auto the bad guy would run out of ammo sooner need to reload more and have less control over his shots.

A shotgun CAN NOT penetrate twenty people, it spreads a group small lead balls thus could hit more than 1 person, but it's unlikely unless they're crowded together.

In the late 80's, if I remember correctly. I was reading in a gun magazine that you can get the "44 magnum" in a semi pistol (don't remember if was with a 13,15 or 17 round magazine). The other option was in a machine gun style of gun that was capable of shooting 1000 rounds a minute and was no bigger than probably average size toy water riffle and the rounds where in a chain that went in one side and straight out the other. The second one scared the hell out of me. This was over twenty years ago and I hope this kind of gun is no longer in production.

The only 44 Mag semi auto that I know of is the Desert-Eagle and it's only 8 shots

Magnum Research Desert Eagle, .44 Magnum, Brushed Chrome - Style # DE44BC, MRI Shop / Firearms

The other would be full auto, thus heavily regulated and expensive, and being belt fed I think it would require 2 people to operate, but I could be wrong.

In Florida we have the "10-20 to life"and I don't think that is being used, unless we just have "Big Balls" Floridians or just pure dumb asses. Why don't we upgrade that to "10-20 to immediate death sentence" across the country.

Now you're getting to what we really need, REAL punishment for the laws we already have (and get rid of the laws that keep GOOD GUYS from protecting themselves).

Saw this one on the news yesterday:


3 Cops Shot: Gunman Dead in NJ Police Station Shooting | NBC 10 Philadelphia


Dude actually thought he would make it out of the police station??

No GOOD GUYS KILLED, 1 BAD GUY DEAD!!! Could it be because the good guys had guns and could defend themselves?

 

[Hypnotoad]

My understanding is that a twelve gauge shotgun can penetrate twenty people but it would be very hard for one person to line up twenty people. I understand in this scenario there would still be deaths but not as many as with the semi and definitely not as much as with the full automatic.

Maybe in a Terminator movie. I'm no expert, but I don't know of a gun that could penetrate 20 people, unless it was mounted to a tank or battle ship. It think you'd have a hard time lugging that kind of firearm anywhere.

 

[mikeinDE]

No GOOD GUYS KILLED, 1 BAD GUY DEAD!!! Could it be because the good guys had guns and could defend themselves?

I liked the outcome on that one too!! I know it's not really the same scenario as what is being discussed, but just thought I would share. Glad she got some quick help from the other two cops....

 

[Bartonmd]

I apologize for lack of explanation. I have no problem with the guns, my ordeal is with who's finger is on the trigger.
1. Since we have irresponsible adults and zero accountability for them and the criminals then we need stronger laws. Case in point, this lady new she had a nut job of a son, she did not need to have those guns regardless whether she kept them secure or not. As a civilian I can not see a need for a cabinet full of guns to protect my home and definitely not of full automatics.
The way I see it:
If you had twenty people standing around and a gun man with a semi or full automatic weapon. The gun man would have an advantage over the mob of people
who would try to knock him down and disarm him before he takes out everybody vs if he had a revolver, shotgun or whatever category these kind of guns fall under.
The point of my scenario is twenty people vs a single person with a gun. What kind of gun would give the gunman the list advantage over the crowd.
My understanding is that a twelve gauge shotgun can penetrate twenty people but it would be very hard for one person to line up twenty people. I understand in this scenario there would still be deaths but not as many as with the semi and definitely not as much as with the full automatic.

In the late 80's, if I remember correctly. I was reading in a gun magazine that you can get the "44 magnum" in a semi pistol (don't remember if was with a 13,15 or 17 round magazine). The other option was in a machine gun style of gun that was capable of shooting 1000 rounds a minute and was no bigger than probably average size toy water riffle and the rounds where in a chain that went in one side and straight out the other. The second one scared the hell out of me. This was over twenty years ago and I hope this kind of gun is no longer in production.

In Florida we have the "10-20 to life"and I don't think that is being used, unless we just have "Big Balls" Floridians or just pure dumb asses. Why don't we upgrade that to "10-20 to immediate death sentence" across the country.


By the way, thank you for the professional reply it does proof we have professional folks in here.

For the record, to your previous post, my post to you was not emotional at all.

The reason I said it had all been covered in this thread, is because it already came out in this thread that not only are (legal) full auto weapons really hard for a civilian to own, but they have NEVER been used in a mass public shooting, and have only ever been used in a couple shootings, and at least one of which was self-defense.

The .44mag semi-auto pistol is a Desert Eagle, and the standard capacity magazine is 8rd, the same as you can get in some revolvers (S&W made an 8rd revolver several years ago). A belt-fed rifle has never been used in a non-military public shooting (or any non-military shooting in the US, as far as I know). There is no need to be "scared" of an inanimate object, which is where it reads like most of your argument is coming from (and that you specifically said, above). That's not an insult, either, but an honest assessment based on what you typed. Being scared of a crazy person when they have any weapon is reasonable, but being scared of an inanimate object, or even an inanimate object in the hands of a "normal" person is not logical. (mods, if this is deemed to be an insult, please DO NOT delete this whole post. Tell me, and I'll delete, or you can delete that sentence)

As also has already been settled in this thread, despite the media circus and innate emotional response that they elicit, you are more likely to win the lottery, or be struck by lightning than you are to die in a mass public shooting. As scary as the thought is, they are an extremely small problem, in the grand scheme of things. Less than 300 people have been killed in public mass shootings in the last 17 years in the US, whereas in Chicago, where guns are basically completely outlawed, they have around 300 (ETA: actually 400-500) murders a year, most of them with illegally possessed guns. Also, despite Europe's extremely tough gun control laws, they have roughly the same number of mass public shootings as we do, and they have the 2 with the highest body count. Lawful public possession of standard design capacity magazines and semi-auto rifles has basically zero impact on public mass shootings, because, as we've seen in Europe, if they can't get things legally, they'll get them illegally. Also, with about any mass public shooting scenario, in order to kill more people than you can with a couple revolvers and a shotgun with what they already have in their cylinders or tubes, you have to walk around and find people to shoot (Columbine, VA Tech, etc), which gives PLENTY of time to reload in a gun-free zone, where nobody is shooting back.

To your "20 people standing around and a guy with a semi-auto weapon" situation, people scatter much faster than you can shoot them, and magazine capacity doesn't matter (hardly) at all. FWIW, I used to trap shoot with a pump action shotgun, and I had exactly the same between-shot time as the (mortal) guys with the semi-auto shotguns (you still have to aim). As opposed to what the movies would tell you, a shotgun is not a "point it in the general direction and pull the trigger" weapon. At the normal self-defense and probable active-shooter distances, a shotgun makes around a 4" pattern. A 12ga shotgun, is actually a good home-defense weapon, because it WON'T penetrate much farther than 1 person with buck shot, where a lot of the (revolver, in particular) rounds will go through a person and several walls. The fastest shooting records are all set with revolvers, because the action doesn't have to cycle a slide like a semi-auto, and all you need is multiple revolvers. Also, the revolver competition guys reload a 6-rd revolver in a little over 1 second, which is at or less than the average time to put a new magazine in a semi-auto pistol.

If you talk about getting rid of anything that can do anything like that, you are talking about a complete ban on anything that holds more than 1 round. Since handguns are used in self-defense around 100,000 times a year, you'd lose MANY TIMES as many people to not being able to defend themselves against criminals, as you'd possibly save from active public shooters. More to that, as we've seen, criminals, by definition, don't obey the law. Because of this, even if you take all the guns out of the hands of law-abiding citizens (Also in the process, killing the ~5000 people/year that currently shoot their attackers, which would now be unable to defend themselves), any potential shooter or criminal can get anything on the black market.

We don't have a gun problem. We have a crazy people problem. This problem is made worse by the media that plasters the shooters' names and faces all over the place for weeks after an event. There are more crazy people made from over-use and improper use of psychotropic drugs that do help a lot of people, but if they don't work with your system, they can make you paranoid and suicidal. FWIW, all of the public active shooters we've had in this country in the last 20 years have been on psychotropic prescription drugs.

As I said in my original post to you, most of this stuff had already been covered in this thread.

Mike

 

[Short Bus]

I liked the outcome on that one too!! I know it's not really the same scenario as what is being discussed, but just thought I would share. Glad she got some quick help from the other two cops....

I think it's exactly on point, trained people with guns nearby = 3 wounded, No armed GOOD GUYS = 27 DEAD

 

[Badbart]

Saw a neat video on Youtube. A guy dumps 200 rounds through a 12 gauge Saiga in less than 3 minutes. I dont know how to get the link on here but if you want to copy and paste it on Youtube:

Saiga 12 Winchester Universal 200 round

My favorite shotgun! Unbelievable firepower and reliability.