Should the United States have better gun control ???

Denali n DOO

Original poster
Member
May 22, 2012
5,596
Based on my Newtown thread it seems everyone wants to comment on gun control. Here's a thread for you guys to discuss it. I'm sure we'll see that stupid video "25 reasons for gun control". Why do so many people need to own a gun? If you own a gun are they locked up properly or are they loaded laying under your bed ready for action?
 

DucatiSS

Member
Nov 19, 2011
369
First off as a moderator here, I doubt this thread will be open for very long because this is a passionate subject that gets people going on both sides.

That being said, I will respond.

I own a few (cough,cough) guns. I enjoy collecting, working on, and shooting all of them. I see it as a hobby much like others see collecting cars, model trains, or golf clubs for that matter. I know that I can open my safe at any time without fear that one of the guns will discharge and hurt someone. See, the gun by itself is nothing more than a chunk of machined steel, just like a car. In the right hands, both a car and a gun have the power to do many things that make some people go, Holy crap, I didn't know that was possible. On the other hand, a car or a gun in the wrong hands can be deadly for the owner as well as others.

When I take a gun to the range, it has the potential to become a fine tuned instrument capable of delivering greater than expected results at long range. I find pleasure in being able to put 10 holes in a piece of paper no larger than a nickle at 100 yards. To me, going to the range and busting 42 out of 50 clay pigeons and then having a piece of pie and coffee on the way home makes for a fantastic day.

I enjoy the solitude of sitting in my garage disassembling and cleaning my guns after a day of shooting. I also enjoy altering them with things like extended safetys, hammers, triggers, etc. or as us car guys call it, "modding". I strive to be the best shot I can be whether it be with a pistol, rifle of shotgun. I work on breath control, mind control so I can block out outside distractions, and strength. I will sit for hours reading articles on ballistics, compensation for windage and bullet drop just because I find that science interesting.

Yes, some people will come on here and start yelling 2nd amendment rights, and I do agree that in this country we do have right to own guns, but with that right comes great responsibility. I have heard lots of numbers being reported by the media (by the way, I believe they are more dangerous than my guns) about the number of guns and gun owners in this country. The numbers that come to mind are, we have approximately 300 million guns owned by 85 million Americans. When a nut job goes out and uses a gun for the wrong reasons, I know that 84,999,000 Americans did nothing to harm anybody that day. These are better numbers than the amount of people that are intoxicated behind the wheel of a 5000lb. killing machine.


Let the moderation watch begin. :smile:
 

HARDTRAILZ

Moderator
Nov 18, 2011
49,665
Denali n DOO said:
Why do so many people need to own a gun? If you own a gun are they locked up properly or are they loaded laying under your bed ready for action?

Guns are an inalienable Right in the US. They are needed to keep the government from having too much power. That was the intent of of the Constitution. This country was founded with guns and patriots died to give us the right to keep and bear arms, so we would not have to fight a war with an overbearing government as they did.

I have a guns where they need to be. An unloaded gun is just a paperweight. A loaded gun is an item which requires personal accountability and is a tool my forefathers died to ensure I could always have to protect myself and my family from evil. Guns also keep the US safe from invasion. "Behind every blade of grass."


And to answer your question... No. We do not need more gun control. We need personal accountability and training. Respect for each other and for the tool.

They should regulate the privilege of driving more rather than the right to own a gun. Cars kill far more than guns and driving is not a a right in this country. I do believe, you should have to prove you are a citizen and have the right to own a gun.

If you do not want the right that our countries founders bled and died for...you can leave this great country and go try life where guns are banned.
 

Denali n DOO

Original poster
Member
May 22, 2012
5,596
DucatiSS said:
First off as a moderator here, I doubt this thread will be open for very long because this is a passionate subject that gets people going on both sides.

That being said, I will respond.

I own a few (cough,cough) guns. I enjoy collecting, working on, and shooting all of them. I see it as a hobby much like others see collecting cars, model trains, or golf clubs for that matter. I know that I can open my safe at any time without fear that one of the guns will discharge and hurt someone. See, the gun by itself is nothing more than a chunk of machined steel, just like a car. In the right hands, both a car and a gun have the power to do many things that make some people go, Holy crap, I didn't know that was possible. On the other hand, a car or a gun in the wrong hands can be deadly for the owner as well as others.

When I take a gun to the range, it has the potential to become a fine tuned instrument capable of delivering greater than expected results at long range. I find pleasure in being able to put 10 holes in a piece of paper no larger than a nickle at 100 yards. To me, going to the range and busting 42 out of 50 clay pigeons and then having a piece of pie and coffee on the way home makes for a fantastic day.

I enjoy the solitude of sitting in my garage disassembling and cleaning my guns after a day of shooting. I also enjoy altering them with things like extended safetys, hammers, triggers, etc. or as us car guys call it, "modding". I strive to be the best shot I can be whether it be with a pistol, rifle of shotgun. I work on breath control, mind control so I can block out outside distractions, and strength. I will sit for hours reading articles on ballistics, compensation for windage and bullet drop just because I find that science interesting.

Yes, some people will come on here and start yelling 2nd amendment rights, and I do agree that in this country we do have right to own guns, but with that right comes great responsibility. I have heard lots of numbers being reported by the media (by the way, I believe they are more dangerous than my guns) about the number of guns and gun owners in this country. The numbers that come to mind are, we have approximately 300 million guns owned by 85 million Americans. When a nut job goes out and uses a gun for the wrong reasons, I know that 84,999,000 Americans did nothing to harm anybody that day. These are better numbers than the amount of people that are intoxicated behind the wheel of a 5000lb. killing machine.


Let the moderation watch begin. :smile:

I like what your saying, that does sound like fun, you probably have as much fun doing that as I do snowmobiling. Obviously you are responsible because you keep them in a safe place. I think some people own guns for the wrong reasons and aren't responsible enough to have them. Why do so many guns end up in the hands? There was a big uproar hear about the gun registry so they scrapped it. I thought it was a good idea because allowed our Police to know who owned guns and respond to calls accordingly. My friend has some guns locked in a safe, I know where he keeps the keys and I don't think I should, that to me is not responsible.

10 holes in a piece of paper the size of a nickel, at a 100 yards, that's some good shooting :thumbsup:
 

blazinlow89

Member
Jan 25, 2012
2,088
Gun laws do not work, if they worked guns would not have been present in areas where they are prohibited (schools, movie theaters, malls etc). If gun laws are followed then thousands of people murdered every year in cities and public areas that do not allow CCW, would not occur. Criminals do not follow laws, plain and simple. You increase control the only thing that effects the criminal is that price goes up, they can still get illegal weapons, and use them in an illegal manner. I think a bigger problem with the mass shooting's is that alot of the shooters had either some sort of mental disorder, or they had been on medication for depression, or had other mental diagnoses. People are not being treated for their problems, they are given happy pills and sent on their way to self administer medication. I am not saying anyone with a mental illness will do this, I am saying that most of the ones had warning signs that something was not right with their family life, their personal lives or another facet of life.

Proper storage of the weapons in the Sandy Hook tragedy would have prevented it, trigger locks and a gun safe. The possibility of the shooter killing his own mother and taking her weapons would have been less likely. Even then being submitted for proper treatment could have also prevented it.
 

Badbart

Member
Nov 20, 2011
633
Here in Florida, if you have children under the age of 16 you have to secure your firearms, either with trigger locks, or in a gun safe/cabinet. Sadly, over the past few years there have been incidents where a toddler or young child has gotten an unsecured pistol and shot themselves or others fatally. It's bad enough that a child has died, but knowing that a parent could have prevented it just by following the law....I don't know how I could live with myself in such a situation. And getting a prison sentence on top of all that. Yes, we all need to be responsible gun owners. I was raised in a family that owned guns and have been taught respect for the weapon since I was 2 years old. My Dad took me hunting with him starting at that age. Guns were not a novelty then(at least not to us), they were more of a tool that was used to put meat on the table. I personally never had a use for an assault weapon until my time in the military and my law enforcement career. But I did aquire an AR-15 back in the early 90's and it is a marvelous weapon. I have no practical use for it these days(early in my career I was permitted to carry it in my patrol car, back before they issued M-16's to us)but I keep it as a memento of earlier days, plus it's fun to shoot. All my weapons are secure except one shotgun, and my pistol stays in the console of my locked car when I don't wear it. The shotgun is unloaded, but the shells are "handy", meaning only I know where they are. I am not a paranoid, burned out excop who sleeps with a pistol under my pillow. I don't even lock my doors at night or ever. I have an alarm system which consist of a Doberman and a German Shepard.(did I mention I used to be a K9 handler?) so if I need to load the shotgun I have time. :biggrin:
The bottom line? I keep my guns as they should be kept and I'm not a crazed lunatic that should not have access to a gun. If someone would check with the other 299,999,999 gun owners out there and make sure they're doing their part, we would live in a safer world.
 

hockeyman

Member
Aug 26, 2012
726
I have quite a few guns, and I too like to shoot and modify them -as a hobby. I also keep a few loaded guns in my house, and I keep them to use as a friendly gesture to any possibly intruders. :wink:
I also do not have kids.

They say that the asshole (Ryan Lanza) had mental issues and learning disabilities, but he knew well-enough what the repercussions would be once he heard the sirens coming, then killed himself. It's too bad that he just didn't do that to himself first, then none of this would have taken place.
In a way, it's good that he's dead, so that there won't be any long drawn-out trial with some d-bag defense team trying to get him evaluated from some other mentally insane doctor!
*But, in another way, I would have liked to see him alive so that someone could have a chance to torture him very slowly until the dies. I know that would never happen though because there are too many Liberals living in [and running] this country that would protect him from that.

Bottom line, guns in the wrong hands give a bad-rap to the rest of us. As stated, guns are needed. Ban them here in the US, and it'll be like prohibition all over again as much more illegal guns will make their way over the borders. Besides, Mass Murders can occur without guns. Look what Timothy McVeigh did...

Gun control won't work, because it's in effect now and doesn't work.

Just opinion is just my $0.02 and I don't give a shit what any possible liberal (government or not) out there thinks about it. I think they're running this country into a piss-hole anyways!
 

hockeyman

Member
Aug 26, 2012
726
Oh, and I'm putting this reply here because I get my 100th post. yay...

This is also the very first thread I'm going to "like". Again, yay...
 

Jkust

Member
Dec 4, 2011
946
I'm not a gun guy. I have only one in the house for protection if the need ever arises. My very first ever real job when I was 14 was working at a gun club with trap, skeet and range practice so am comfortable around them. I do not think we need any more laws or even worse, regulations created by unelected officials. Egregious laws such as Obamacare for instance are simply aweful but as bad as it is, it will be the thousands of pages of regulations that are truly bad.
In the case of the most recent incident we need the ability to much more easily committ someone as was the case before the laws changed many years ago. I work with some Brits - think Lloyds of London, who are just aghast at the gun culture here in the U.S.A. and similar to how they are generations deep in their universal healthcare mindset, they can not understand why guns are so easily attainable here especially the gun show exclusion. Interestingly just days before the CT shootings, a similar type incident happened in China except it was 22 people and it was with an knife. To the argument my Brit friends respond yes the attack may have happened with a knife but many of those kids survived...with a gun the odds are much slimmer.

I honestly think that the advancement of a political agenda after each tragedy whatever it may be is shameful. The idea of not letting a crisis go to waste disgusts me.
 

BO TIE SS

Member
Nov 18, 2011
1,497
DucatiSS said:
First off as a moderator here, I doubt this thread will be open for very long because this is a passionate subject that gets people going on both sides.
:iagree:

I also believe that this site is made up of mature adults who can participate in a healthy debate without foul language or personal attacks. The amount of time that this thread will remain open is directly related to how well everyone can follow these simple guidelines. :yes:

DucatiSS said:
we have approximately 300 million guns owned by 85 million Americans. When a nut job goes out and uses a gun for the wrong reasons, I know that 84,999,000 Americans did nothing to harm anybody that day.
Ummm, Bill? That would be 84,999,999. :raspberry:
 

HARDTRAILZ

Moderator
Nov 18, 2011
49,665
gun_control_works2.jpg
 

D0M0

Member
Aug 2, 2012
38
I Think gun control laws are a joke to a degree. Bad guys will get guns however they want. I do think that in order to own a gun, you should go thru the process that is no different than when you get a license to drive a car.

I would like to own a gun one day, but I honestly believe that for ME its bad Karma. I think that once you own one, you invite that kind of violence onto yourself. that's just my belief.

People who take care of their guns and lock them away and understand the responsibility of owning one I salute you. I Understand the need for guns, mostly outside of a major city. Alot of the people crying about gun control live in areas where gun violence has gotten out of control. The Right has been abused. You don't see anyone in Wyoming crying about gun control because (imo) they NEED those guns. A Police officer isnt going to show up in 5 mins to save you from a threat, if it be another human or a animal (like a bear). They also use them to hunt.

I think that education and better judgement is the key here. It wont solve it altogether tho.
 

blazinlow89

Member
Jan 25, 2012
2,088
I think something a bit stricter than the requirements for a drivers license should be required, at least a basic psych eval, gun safety course, and renewal every 5 years to maintain eligibility to own. Living in MD we also have some of the strictest CCW laws, which hopefully will be changed by the court cases going on. I think CCW would be a great thing, a criminal would not know who is carrying and who isnt, making the chances of them trying to commit a crime of opportunity less.

We have also had the conversation at work about allowing teachers to carry, same concept with psych eval and everything should be required as well as a course so they can be mentally prepared to handle such a situation. Something along the lines of basic police training. Of course we have the guys saying what if, the problem is that there are to many variables to be able to cover every situation. Maybe they can encode guns like in Judge Dredd so only one person or a select few like a husband, wife etc could fire a certain gun.

Alot of things could have been done, not by authorities but by the gun owners themselves from allowing the guns to fall into the wrong hands. Proper technique can be taught, but the participants must be willing to follow the technique in order for it to work. More regulation will not be the answer, remove guns and people will find another way to cause harm.
 

Hatchet

Member
Nov 21, 2011
2,405
Being from Chicago I have seen gun laws and there effects. Before the Supreme Court of the US over turned the ban to own a gun in the city. You could go out any night in almost any part of the city and hear gun shots going on. Those are not legal gun owners, those are scum. A complete ban and yet there were still guns in the city. But here is the topper. Even when cops would arrest a gangbanger/felon with a gun, they plea bargain out and are on the streets in a few hours. They dont charge them or put them in jail. They send them back out to go do it again.

What they need to do first is to enforce the laws we have already. If they do that, alot of shootings will stop.

We will never be able to stop all the shootings. Its impossible. Look at England and Australia. They have total country wide bans on firearms. Since there bans have gone into effect, gun crimes have gone up in both countries. How so? Only law bidding citizens follow the laws. A person intent on doing harm, will do harm no matter what.

64078_435104676557085_1084466622_n.jpg
 

Short Bus

Member
Dec 2, 2011
1,906
Denali n DOO said:
Based on my Newtown thread it seems everyone wants to comment on gun control. Here's a thread for you guys to discuss it. I'm sure we'll see that stupid video "25 reasons for gun control". Why do so many people need to own a gun? If you own a gun are they locked up properly or are they loaded laying under your bed ready for action?

Just for you :raspberry:

[video=youtube_share;3LndP0KN4aU]http://youtu.be/3LndP0KN4aU[/video]
 

Jkust

Member
Dec 4, 2011
946
blazinlow89 said:
, at least a basic psych eval.

Like I mentioned above, this tragedy is just being exploited by the left to add more control and regulate even more than the overeaching government already does. It's the same with every tragedy or natural disaster. That said the basic psych eval is a no go imo though it only makes sense. I can only imagine all the controversy surrounding someone in their 20's that was diagnosed with depression trying to buy a gun in their 30's and being denied. Or the thought of which diagnoses preclude you from ownership. This line of questions could go on and on and for each one there is a lobby in DC. From what I understand the gunman had what is increasingly a common diagnosis. The ACLU would go apoplectic. The sad thing here is how in hindsight this killer had trouble written all over him as I have read.
 

HARDTRAILZ

Moderator
Nov 18, 2011
49,665
Less gun control, but more enforcement of existing may just be the answer. Make people scared to use a gun for evil.
 

Denali n DOO

Original poster
Member
May 22, 2012
5,596
Short Bus said:
Just for you :raspberry:

[video=youtube_share;3LndP0KN4aU]http://youtu.be/3LndP0KN4aU[/video]

There's that video again :crazy:! I like the part at about 5:10 the best :raspberry:
 

Badbart

Member
Nov 20, 2011
633
HARDTRAILZ said:
Less gun control, but more enforcement of existing may just be the answer. Make people scared to use a gun for evil.

How can you scare someone into not using a gun if they're willing to to kill themselves after they massacre kids at a school? Florida already has a gun law called 10-20-LIFE. The law's name comes from three main mandatory sentences: 1) producing a firearm during the commission of certain felonies mandates at least a 10-year prison sentence; 2) firing one mandates at least a 20-year prison sentence; and 3) shooting someone mandates a minimum sentence of 25 years regardless of whether a victim is killed or simply injured. The maximum penalty is a life sentence unless the defendant is charged with felony murder or first degree murder in which case the maximum is the death penalty. I think they should the minimum life! They only have so many prisons though.
 

RayVoy

Member
Nov 20, 2011
939
I AM A CANADIAN, WE HAVE GUN LAWS AND I OWN GUNS

As a law abiding Canadian, I am permitted to legally purchase and possess rifles, shotguns, pistols and revolvers.

There are restrictions on barrel length, number of rounds in the mag and they can not be full auto. They also can not resemble an assault weapon.

They must be locked, they can not be stored loaded and the ammo must be stored and locked in a separate cabinet.

To remove them from my home (storage area), I must have a permit. If it is during a hunting season and I have the correct hunting licence, I have a permit to move the weapon. If outside a hunting season and I need to move the weapon (to a range, or for repair), a trip to a ranger office will usually obtain the necessary paper work.

Pistols and revolvers can not be used for hunting. The owner must belong to a gun club to legally move the weapon out of storage; or, be a registered collector.

We also have restrictions on ammo purchases. A lot of rounds are restricted.


Speed kills...........................down range delivery of multiple rounds per second kills very quickly. An assault rifle, on full auto, in the hands of a mad-man, killed 20 children; a knife, in the hands of a mad-man (in China) killed no children.

AS A CANADIAN, I AGREE WITH OUR BAN ON ASSAULT WEAPONS.
 

HARDTRAILZ

Moderator
Nov 18, 2011
49,665
Badbart said:
How can you scare someone into not using a gun if they're willing to to kill themselves after they massacre kids at a school? Florida already has a gun law called 10-20-LIFE. The law's name comes from three main mandatory sentences: 1) producing a firearm during the commission of certain felonies mandates at least a 10-year prison sentence; 2) firing one mandates at least a 20-year prison sentence; and 3) shooting someone mandates a minimum sentence of 25 years regardless of a whether a victim is killed or simply injured. The maximum penalty is a life sentence unless the defendant is charged with felony murder or first degree murder in which case the maximum is the death penalty. I think they should the minimum life! They only have so many prisons though.

Those laws are not everywhere and in some states you get out in under a year.

RayVoy said:
I AM A CANADIAN, WE HAVE GUN LAWS AND I OWN GUNS

As a law abiding Canadian, I am permitted to legally purchase and possess rifles, shotguns, pistols and revolvers.

There are restrictions on barrel length, number of rounds in the mag and they can not be full auto. They also can not resemble an assault weapon.

They must be locked, they can not be stored loaded and the ammo must be stored and locked in a separate cabinet.

To remove them from my home (storage area), I must have a permit. If it is during a hunting season and I have the correct hunting licence, I have a permit to move the weapon. If outside a hunting season and I need to move the weapon (to a range, or for repair), a trip to a ranger office will usually obtain the necessary paper work.

Pistols and revolvers can not be used for hunting. The owner must belong to a gun club to legally move the weapon out of storage; or, be a registered collector.

We also have restrictions on ammo purchases. A lot of rounds are restricted.


Speed kills...........................down range delivery of multiple rounds per second kills very quickly. An assault rifle, on full auto, in the hands of a mad-man, killed 20 children; a knife, in the hands of a mad-man (in China) killed no children.

AS A CANADIAN, I AGREE WITH OUR BAN ON ASSAULT WEAPONS.

Good for you. I am not Canadian and do not want to be. Glad you are happy but you don't have the same Right as we do.
 

Badbart

Member
Nov 20, 2011
633
HARDTRAILZ said:
Those laws are not everywhere and in some states you get out in under a year.



Good for you. I am not Canadian and do not want to be. Glad you are happy but you don't have the same Right as we do.



1. Those laws don't work either.


2. My dad went to Canada one year with his fifth wheel camper. The guards at the border inspected his camper and found a bullet for his rifle. They then spent 3 hours tearing his camper apart looking for guns.
 

RayVoy

Member
Nov 20, 2011
939
HARDTRAILZ said:
you don't have the same Right as we do.
Actually, that is only your interpretation :raspberry: I have the same Right as you, it is just not written in the same manner. The biggest difference is that "you" define your "arms" differently than I do.

It is my observation, that most gun toting Americans hide behind your 2nd Amendment. Your founding fathers could never imagine the fire power of today's weapons of war. I do not believe your founding fathers intended today's assault weapons to be the arms you have the right to bear. That is my opinion and not intended to insult my American friends.
 

HARDTRAILZ

Moderator
Nov 18, 2011
49,665
Their muskets were the assault weapons of their time. An AR or AK is just a modern musket meant to protect us from tyranny.
 

The_Roadie

Lifetime VIP Donor
Member
Nov 19, 2011
9,957
Portland, OR
The intent, I believe, was that there should not be a lot of asymmetry in revolutionary times. Nowadays, the government may have rockets, bazookas, or flamethrowers and the populace is prevented from owning them. For the government to lower the threshold to "assault" firearms, and restrict citizens to bolt-action rifles, would not be met well.
 

RayVoy

Member
Nov 20, 2011
939
the roadie said:
Nowadays, the government may have rockets, bazookas, or flamethrowers and the populace is prevented from owning them.
A fully auto assault rifle is only one step down.


the roadie said:
For the government to lower the threshold to "assault" firearms, and restrict citizens to bolt-action rifles, would not be met well.
I agree, and it would not be well received here either. I can own a semi-auto, it simply must not look like an assault auto.
The mini ranch semi is restricted
images
 

hrddrv

Member
Dec 4, 2011
120
The problem is that most people want to ban assault weapons, but guess what I can purchase a hunting rifle and put a different stock on it and now it looks like your assault weapon. There is no such thing as an assault weapon unless it is used to assault. Is a guns primary purpose to kill? Yes. So is a sword by the way. So we ban the sell of magazines that hold more than 10 rounds. It would take over 75 years to get all the ones that is out there now off the streets, and that is after they are so beat up that they are unrepairable. So you want to make it harder for me to get a gun. OK but what is stopping the person who wants a gun now? Nothing. Trust me from someone who talks to high school students every day, I know who I need to talk to if I need to "purchase" just about anything. All this is going to do is make it harder for the law-abiding citizen to get a gun. As far as the other stuff it is going to be really hard to stop the sell of guns or parts from one person to another. That is like saying i can't sell my car to someone else after I have paid for it. Now are they supposed to register it? yes but I can tell you I have sold a few cars that never got registered for at least 2 years after I sold it.
 

DucatiSS

Member
Nov 19, 2011
369
BO TIE SS said:
:Ummm, Bill? That would be 84,999,999. :raspberry:

Sorry, it was early and dark when I wrote this..:redface:

RayVoy said:
An assault rifle, on full auto, in the hands of a mad-man, killed 20 children; a knife, in the hands of a mad-man (in China) killed no children.

.

The gunman in CT. had an AR-15 semi auto, 1 shot per trigger pull, not a full auto. Mixed reports, but most reports say the rifle was found in the trunk so he could not have used it. Lots of mis-information in the story.

Let's ask Nichole Brown Simpson how safe a knife in the hands of a mad man is. Oh yea, we can't. :undecided:
 

blazinlow89

Member
Jan 25, 2012
2,088
DucatiSS said:
Sorry, it was early and dark when I wrote this..:redface:

No excuse your computer monitor has a backlight :raspberry:

The point I was making earlier about the psych eval and I may have left it out, is that the eval must be done every 5 years. Sort of like a DOT physical to operate heavy machinery. You get checked out, the says ok you can renew your license. Doctor says no, well you can go through an appeals process and try again or wait for the next due date (any date can work). If anything it should make the state happy as the individual purchaser/user must pay for it out of pocket.

As for "assault" weapons, you can commit assault with a paper clip, a rubber band and a piece of tin foil. The term is generally placed upon weapons that fire automatically (by politicians, anything that is black, has a scope/attachment mounts or rail system, a clip/"magazine", and bitchen square pieces of metal in random places qualifies as an assault weapon, even though a much more tamed down version may look like a hunting rifle). The point against more regulation is that for some reason politicians do not understand that no matter how many laws, bans or restrictions you put on something people will still buy it. Look at prohibition, drugs, radioactive materials, ban on selling counterfeit products. It does not matter how illegal it is, someone will find a way to sell it, and someone will find a way to buy it.

Timothy McVeigh killed 168 people, with nothing more than some readily available items for sale to the general public. The problem is not the method in which the crime is done, the problem is person who committed the crime. Why punish the law abiding citizens for something the criminals do. So far it has not solved any problems.
 

HARDTRAILZ

Moderator
Nov 18, 2011
49,665
The existing laws work. He was denied purchase of a gun. However; since he was a criminal, he was not hindered by the laws and stole the guns used in the tragedy.


If guns are outlawed.... only outlaws will have guns.
 

Badbart

Member
Nov 20, 2011
633
Found this article this morning. Might be what it comes down to.

HARROLD, Texas (AP) — In this tiny Texas town, children and their parents don't give much thought to safety at the community's lone school — mostly because some of the teachers are carrying concealed weapons.

In remote Harrold, the nearest sheriff's office is 30 minutes away, and people tend to know — and trust — one another. So the school board voted to let teachers bring guns to school.

"We don't have money for a security guard, but this is a better solution," Superintendent David Thweatt said. "A shooter could take out a guard or officer with a visible, holstered weapon, but our teachers have master's degrees, are older and have had extensive training. And their guns are hidden. We can protect our children."

In the awful aftermath of last week's Connecticut elementary school shooting, lawmakers in a growing number of states — including Oklahoma, Missouri, Minnesota, South Dakota and Oregon — have said they will consider laws allowing teachers and school administrators to carry firearms at school.

Texas law bans guns in schools unless the school has given written authorization. Arizona and six other states have similar laws with exceptions for people who have licenses to carry concealed weapons.

Harrold's school board voted unanimously in 2007 to allow employees to carry weapons. After obtaining a state concealed-weapons permit, each employee who wants to carry a weapon must be approved by the board based on his or her personality and reaction to a crisis, Thweatt said.

Employees also must undergo training in crisis intervention and hostage situations. And they must use bullets that minimize the risk of ricochet, similar to those carried by air marshals on planes.

CaRae Reinisch, who lives in the nearby community of Elliott, said she took her children out of a larger school and enrolled them in Harrold two years ago, partly because she felt they would be safer in a building with armed teachers.

"I think it's a great idea for trained teachers to carry weapons," Reinish said. "But I hate that it has come to this."

The superintendent won't disclose how many of the school's 50 employees carry weapons, saying that revealing that number might jeopardize school security.

The school, about 150 miles northwest of Fort Worth near the Oklahoma border, has 103 students from kindergarten through 12th grade. Most of them rarely think about who is carrying a gun.

"This is the first time in a long time that I've thought about it," said Matt Templeton, the principal's 17-year-old son. "And that's because of what happened" in Connecticut.

Thweatt said other Texas schools allow teachers to carry weapons, but he would not reveal their locations, saying they are afraid of negative publicity.

The Texas Education Agency said it had not heard of any other schools with such a policy. And the Brady Center to Prevent Gun Violence did not know of any other districts nationwide that allow school employees to carry concealed handguns.

But that may change soon.

Oklahoma state Rep. Mark McCullough said he is working on a bill that would allow teachers and administrators to receive firearms training through the Council on Law Enforcement Education and Training, which would authorize them to carry weapons at school and at school events. Other states are proposing or considering similar measures.

However, Michigan Gov. Rick Snyder this week vetoed legislation that would have allowed concealed weapons in schools, churches and day care centers, saying he seeks a more "thoughtful review" that includes school emergency policies and mental health-related issues.

In Texas, guns have an honored place in the state's culture, and politicians often describe owning a gun as essential to being Texan. At the state Capitol, concealed handgun license holders are allowed to skip the metal detectors that scan visitors.

Gov. Rick Perry has indicated he would prefer to give gun owners the widest possible latitude. Just days after the Connecticut attack, Perry said permit holders should be able to carry concealed weapons in any public place.

Last year, many Texas lawmakers supported a plan to give college students and professors with concealed handgun licenses the right to carry guns on campus, but the measure failed.

Opponents insist that having more people armed at a school, especially teachers or administrators who aren't trained to deal with crime on a daily basis, could lead to more injuries and deaths. They point to an August shooting outside the Empire State Building, where police killed a laid-off clothing designer after he fatally shot his former colleague. Nine bystanders were wounded by police gunfire, ricochets and fragments.

"You are going to put teachers, people teaching 6-year-olds in a school, and expect them to respond to an active-shooter situation?" said Ladd Everitt, a spokesman for the Washington, D.C.-based Coalition to Stop Gun Violence, who called the idea of arming teachers "madness."

Kristin Rowe-Finkbeiner said she would not have felt better if teachers at her children's Seattle school had been armed during a May shooting at a nearby cafe. A gunman killed four people at the cafe and another woman during a carjacking before killing himself. The school went on lockdown as a precaution.

"It would be highly concerning to me to know that guns were around my kids each and every day. ... Increasing our arms is not the answer," said Rowe-Finkbeiner, co-founder and CEO of MomsRising.org.

Dan Gross, president of the Brady Campaign, said focusing on arming teachers distracts from the "real things" that could help prevent a school shooting "and at worse it furthers a dangerous conversation that only talks about guns as protection without a discussion about the serious risks they present."

As the debate continues, Harrold's school plans to leave its policy unchanged.

"Nothing is 100 percent at all. ... But hope makes for a terrible plan, hoping that (a tragedy) won't happen," Thweatt said. "My question is: What have you done about it? How have you planned?"

___

Associated Press writers Juan A. Lozano in Houston and Nomaan Merchant in Dallas contributed to this report.
 

mikeinDE

Member
Jan 4, 2012
855
Just wanted to post up something I just saw on FB......

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Hatchet

Member
Nov 21, 2011
2,405
RayVoy said:
Actually, that is only your interpretation :raspberry: I have the same Right as you, it is just not written in the same manner. The biggest difference is that "you" define your "arms" differently than I do.

It is my observation, that most gun toting Americans hide behind your 2nd Amendment. Your founding fathers could never imagine the fire power of today's weapons of war. I do not believe your founding fathers intended today's assault weapons to be the arms you have the right to bear. That is my opinion and not intended to insult my American friends.

Well they couldnt have thought about internet, tv, radio, etc. So should the 1st amendment be revoked also?
 

HARDTRAILZ

Moderator
Nov 18, 2011
49,665
Great question Mr Hatchet!


Some of the things I have seen recently...

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Denali n DOO

Original poster
Member
May 22, 2012
5,596
HARDTRAILZ said:
The existing laws work. He was denied purchase of a gun. However; since he was a criminal, he was not hindered by the laws and stole the guns used in the tragedy.


If guns are outlawed.... only outlaws will have guns.

The proper storage part of the laws do not work. If they did then guns would be harder to steal. It's not hard to break into someone's house when the owner isn't at home and go steal the loaded shotgun under the bed or the pistol in the night table drawer. If all these illegal guns weren't out on the street then you wouldn't need a gun to protect yourself either would you? If irresponsible people leave their guns lying around then irresponsible people can steal then and use them, or even just sell them to someone else that'll use em. If the guns in Newtown were properly stored then this might not have happened. And don't tell me he's just gonna go and steal the crack dealers gun, why would he if he knows the crack dealer is armed with an illegal gun and would most likely shoot him.

On a positive note, I spoke to Bob in Newtown last night and his son (10 yrs) was unharmed and didn't see the carnage. No school till after Christmas. He lives 1 mile from the school and says there has been lots of media around with their big rigs and equipment so it's hard to not talk about. He said the people in the community and the grief counselors are awesome. Some lady from Iowa who owns a bakery loaded up an rv with 1200 apple pies and came to Newtown to give them away.
 

HARDTRAILZ

Moderator
Nov 18, 2011
49,665
Denali n DOO said:
The proper storage part of the laws do not work. If they did then guns would be harder to steal. It's not hard to break into someone's house when the owner isn't at home and go steal the loaded shotgun under the bed or the pistol in the night table drawer. If all these illegal guns weren't out on the street then you wouldn't need a gun to protect yourself either would you? If irresponsible people leave their guns lying around then irresponsible people can steal then and use them, or even just sell them to someone else that'll use em. If the guns in Newtown were properly stored then this might not have happened. And don't tell me he's just gonna go and steal the crack dealers gun, why would he if he knows the crack dealer is armed with an illegal gun and would most likely shoot him.

There is no proper storage laws and no way to enforce them if there were. It is illegal to break into a house, it is illegal to steal a gun...OBVIOUSLY the laws are not working.

If all the illegal guns were not out on the street....YES I would need a gun to protect myself. I need one to keep myself from ending up as the colonists did....subjects, not citizens. A gun is not solely to protect me or my loved ones from the evil you see in the news, but from what could be if guns were not in the hands of citizens.

Denali n DOO said:
And don't tell me he's just gonna go and steal the crack dealers gun, why would he if he knows the crack dealer is armed with an illegal gun and would most likely shoot him.
Because desperate people do desperate things. A week ago you would have said he would not kill his mother...his own f'ing mother...to get her guns and commit these acts.

FYI-- They are finally admitting it was not an assault weapon, but pistols that he used. The media just needed to create the panic without having the facts and the president, ploticians, and other allowed it to happen.

The United States needs media control, not gun control.

Talk about the innocent being murdered....

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v7guy

Member
Dec 4, 2011
298
The simple fact that Columbine happened right in the middle of the federal assault weapons ban should speak volumes to the effectiveness of these types of laws. More regulation is not going to stop these types of events.
We have systems in place to do background checks and verify someone is ok, they check for warrants, restraining orders, mental health issues etc. In the case of Sandy Hook, Adam Lanza stole the guns and he wasn't allowed to have a gun on school property, we already have laws for those. More laws wouldn't have stopped this.

I understand the emotional response and the desire to do something. But do we really want to continue taking freedoms away from everyone because a very very small minority of people will do bad things with their freedoms?
 

HARDTRAILZ

Moderator
Nov 18, 2011
49,665
Guess our national leaders didn’t expect this, hmm? Darrell Scott, the father of Rachel Scott, a victim of the Columbine High School shootings in Littleton , Colorado , was invited to address the House Judiciary Committee’s subcommittee. What he said to our national leaders during this special session of Congress was painfully truthful.

They were not prepared for what he was to say, nor was it received well. It needs to be heard by every parent, every teacher, every politician, every sociologist, every psychologist, and every so-called expert! These courageous words spoken by Darrell Scott are powerful, penetrating, and deeply personal. There is no doubt that God sent this man as a voice crying in the wilderness.. The following is a portion of the transcript:

Since the dawn of creation there has been both good & evil in the hearts of men and women. We all contain the seeds of kindness or the seeds of violence. The death of my wonderful daughter, Rachel Joy Scott, and the deaths of that heroic teacher, and the other eleven children who died must not be in vain. Their blood cries out for answers.

The first recorded act of violence was when Cain slew his brother Abel out in the field. The villain was not the club he used.. Neither was it the NCA, the National Club Association. The true killer was Cain, and the reason for the murder could only be found in Cain’s heart.

In the days that followed the Columbine tragedy, I was amazed at how quickly fingers began to be pointed at groups such as the NRA. I am not a member of the NRA. I am not a hunter. I do not even own a gun. I am not here to represent or defend the NRA – because I don’t believe that they are responsible for my daughter’s death. Therefore I do not believe that they need to be defended. If I believed they had anything to do with Rachel’s murder I would be their strongest opponent.

I am here today to declare that Columbine was not just a tragedy — it was a spiritual event that should be forcing us to look at where the real blame lies! Much of the blame lies here in this room. Much of the blame lies behind the pointing fingers of the accusers themselves. I wrote a poem just four nights ago that expresses my feelings best.

Your laws ignore our deepest needs,
Your words are empty air.
You’ve stripped away our heritage,
You’ve outlawed simple prayer.
Now gunshots fill our classrooms,
And precious children die.
You seek for answers everywhere,
And ask the question “Why?”
You regulate restrictive laws,
Through legislative creed.
And yet you fail to understand,
That God is what we need!


Men and women are three-part beings. We all consist of body, mind, and spirit. When we refuse to acknowledge a third part of our make-up, we create a void that allows evil, prejudice, and hatred to rush in and wreak havoc. Spiritual presences were present within our educational systems for most of our nation’s history. Many of our major colleges began as theological seminaries. This is a historical fact. What has happened to us as a nation? We have refused to honor God, and in so doing, we open the doors to hatred and violence. And when something as terrible as Columbine’s tragedy occurs — politicians immediately look for a scapegoat such as the NRA. They immediately seek to pass more restrictive laws that contribute to erode away our personal and private liberties. We do not need more restrictive laws. Eric and Dylan would not have been stopped by metal detectors. No amount of gun laws can stop someone who spends months planning this type of massacre. The real villain lies within our own hearts.

As my son Craig lay under that table in the school library and saw his two friends murdered before his very eyes, he did not hesitate to pray in school. I defy any law or politician to deny him that right! I challenge every young person in America , and around the world, to realize that on April 20, 1999, at Columbine High School prayer was brought back to our schools. Do not let the many prayers offered by those students be in vain. Dare to move into the new millennium with a sacred disregard for legislation that violates your God-given right to communicate with Him. To those of you who would point your finger at the NRA — I give to you a sincere challenge.. Dare to examine your own
heart before casting the first stone!

My daughter’s death will not be in vain! The young people of this country will not
allow that to happen!”

Darrell Scott



FYI--the NRA has not been vocal about the recent tragedy out of respect for the victims, while the anti-gun side has been quite outspoken without any care of the victims or their feelings.
EDIT:
Here is the text of the NRA statement on the Connecticut school shootings, released Tuesday Dec. 18.

NRA STATEMENT

The National Rifle Association of America is made up of four million moms and dads, sons and daughters – and we were shocked, saddened and heartbroken by the news of the horrific and senseless murders in Newtown.

Out of respect for the families, and as a matter of common decency, we have given time for mourning, prayer and a full investigation of the facts before commenting.

The NRA is prepared to offer meaningful contributions to help make sure this never happens again.

The NRA is planning to hold a major news conference in the Washington, DC area on Friday, December 21.

Details will be released to the media at the appropriate time.

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redleg6

Member
Apr 10, 2012
686
First off, I don't own a gun or a rifle, I did think about it recently (thanks to sales ads a few weeks ago), but now wonder if it's still something I want to pursue.

I thought that since both my wife and I used to like shooting a rifle at a range, we could enjoy it together again. I'm sure myself and my wife would benefit from a safety course (which is probably a requirement), prior to purchasing.

What I learned from the Army about shooting firearms I still keep in my head to this day. Misuse or improper use can kill someone or yourself. Of course anything illegal with a firearm is improper use.

Do we need better gun control? I can't answer that, I do wish it was better managed though for the sake of the innocent lives killed in the US.

I just figure gun control starts with ownership.
 

Denali n DOO

Original poster
Member
May 22, 2012
5,596
HARDTRAILZ said:
Because desperate people do desperate things. A week ago you would have said he would not kill his mother...his own f'ing mother...to get her guns and commit these acts.

But you keep missing the point, her guns were easy access for him because they weren't locked away and he knew where to get them. Let's say she didn't own any guns then what, she may still be alive. I'll also point out that If she owned one of those guns for protection as per her constitutional right, it didn't work out so well did it?

Not sure what Hitler and the other idiots have to do with this at all. This isn't Germany, Russia, Cuba or Korea we're talking about and You can't compare 70 years ago to modern day. Your grasping at straws for your argument...
 

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