Firearms

Chickenhawk

Member
Dec 6, 2011
784
Grimor said:
I love green lasers, it's soo much easier to find the person you're trying to shoot. Not the dot, the person holding the gun.
LOL! Love it!!

Now, while I would rarely criticize another person's choice of firearm, because firearms are so personal, I would like to correct some misconceptions. (I do this for what my wife laughingly refers to as "my living" after all.)

Lasers are toys, pure and simple.

#1 - Hollywood directors LOVE lasers. (I don't have a problem with them on set if they are paying me and if there are no safety issues involved.)

#2 - They have VERY limited use in training ... and in many ways, can actually detract from training when the student starts looking for dot feedback and stops looking at the front sight. With good techniques in teaching and lots of dry-fire practice, a handgun student can tell exactly what they are doing wrong and where the shot would have gone by the alignment of the front sight in the notch at the moment the hammer falls.

In nearly 30 years of teaching people how to shoot, I have never used a laser and never will. (Lest you think I am a Luddite and behind the times, I should also point out that I wrote the book - literally - on firearms and handgun safety training for my country.)

#3 - They have a limited use in the military, but only with NVG.

#4 - They are NEVER used in law enforcement. That extra second or two that it takes to first acquire the laser, then move the dot to the target will get someone killed. Plus, in a multiple shooter scenario, there is no way to determine who's dot is who's. Bystanders could get killed very easily. I say this again ... NO ONE in law enforcement uses a laser. (Or, certainly not in my country.)

#5 - No bad guy has EVER surrendered because they saw a dot on their chest.

If I am determined to cause grievous bodily harm to someone, the last thing I am ever going to do is watch my chest for dots ... and if I see one, I am going to charge forward even more determined because I know there is virtually no way they will work in a real-life dynamic situation.

The only people touting lasers are the manufacturers. Beyond their limited use in the military with NVG, they are simply toys.

Advocating lasers are how serious handgun shooters eliminate further advice from a purported instructor. They are just like shotgun instructors who try to tell people that the sound of a pump being racked will deter most bad guys. Except for limited circumstances in corrections where we actually DO teach ERU teams to rack the pump in front of an inmate when using less-than-lethal rounds, racking a pump will not stop someone determined to kill you.

After all, when it comes to shotguns, when sneaking in to my house to do me harm, the sound of a Benelli M4 cartridge drop lever being depressed and the swish of the bolt handle is very faint compared to the sound of a pump being racked ... but it is not the sound that will stop the bad guy; it is the 6 rounds of buckshot that can be fired from an M4 .18 seconds apart that does.

All that being said, if someone wants to use lasers to increase the fun value in shooting or the pride in owning firearms, then go for it. I highly support both activities.

But understand that professionals will always say that the BEST accessory one could ever get for a firearm that may be used to protect human life is a case of ammunition and a good training course or coaching from a person who knows what they are talking about.
 

xtitan1

Member
Jun 5, 2013
467
I've seen some documentaries of SF guys using IR devices that shoot a beam of light kind of like a laser but its only visible in the infrared and with NVGs but technically that's not a laser. Those types of units (I think they are called peq2 or something like that they're like $5k each) seem to actually be used at night a lot by those guys because they are great for IFF as well as for knowing what your buddies are looking at so I would t say that stuff is limited use. However, they technically are not lasers as lasers are a totally different spectrum of light.

I think it's a pretty tall claim that no one ever has had a laser on a gun pointed at them and surrendered lol. The guy saying that clearly was scoffing at relying on that anyway so you can't knock him for that.

I've seen Todd Jarett use lasers a heck of a lot to instruct people because its great for trigger control to see the laser move as you pull the trigger when dry firing. If you just use live ammo you only see the end result and not the entire effect on the target throughout the pull. I certainly don't think it will harm the student to observe that.

Of course, it isn't a vital training technique and I think we all agree that lasers or anything electronic for that matter should not be relied upon and one should always be comfortable and proficient with iron sights but lasers definitely do have a place in the self defense world in my opinion, but I'm not an experienced shooter or have any credentials. Although I know at least Massad Ayoob does recommend them for certain applications as well.
 

Grimor

Member
Mar 28, 2013
954
xtitan1 said:
However, they technically are not lasers as lasers are a totally different spectrum of light.
"A laser is a device that emits light through a process of optical amplification based on the stimulated emission of electromagnetic radiation. The term "laser" originated as an acronym for Light Amplification by Stimulated Emission of Radiation"
There is no restriction limiting the term "laser" to only the visible spectrum. Googling "IR laser" provides millions of results that correctly and accurately refer to narrow spectrum IR emitting devices as lasers
 

xtitan1

Member
Jun 5, 2013
467
Grimor said:
"A laser is a device that emits light through a process of optical amplification based on the stimulated emission of electromagnetic radiation. The term "laser" originated as an acronym for Light Amplification by Stimulated Emission of Radiation"
There is no restriction limiting the term "laser" to only the visible spectrum. Googling "IR laser" provides millions of results that correctly and accurately refer to narrow spectrum IR emitting devices as lasers

Yeah I think I'm just wrong on that one, I stand corrected :diggrave:

BTW this is the thing I was talking about that SF uses AN/PEQ-2 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 

IComeInPeace

Member
Jun 21, 2013
9
Carolina_Jake said:
------------------------------------------------
I have a laser sight on my CCW gun. I use the LaserMax guide rod laser sight. I like the fact that it doesn't affect my holster selection. It is zeroed at approximately 10 yards. at 25 yards I'm about 2 inches off. (I can deal with that) . . . If you can afford the laser sight then get it. It doesn't hurt you, as long as you don't use it a crutch for proper shooting technique, but it can be a life saver in a bad situation.
I have a laser sight and tritium night sights on my gun. If/when my life is on the line, I wouldn't have it any other way.
Source(s):
NRA Life Member
Certified Handgun Instructor

Carolina_Jake,

Thanks for the affirmation!:smile: Sounds like we have the same combination; as I mentioned earlier, I have the LaserMax guide-rod sight, and Tijicon tritium three dot setup (green front, amber rear) installed in/on my carry. What I mean by affirmation is that I often wondered if the addition of these two mods was being a bit excessive--especially since this combination costs as much as the price of a new firearm. A good firearm. When you throw in the fact that I seldom practice with the laser, one would understand if buyer's remorse creeps in. Knowing that you have a similar system, affirms my decision. I am not alone!
 

Short Bus

Member
Dec 2, 2011
1,906
IComeInPeace said:
Carolina_Jake,

Thanks for the affirmation!:smile: Sounds like we have the same combination; as I mentioned earlier, I have the LaserMax guide-rod sight, and Tijicon tritium three dot setup (green front, amber rear) installed in/on my carry. What I mean by affirmation is that I often wondered if the addition of these two mods was being a bit excessive--especially since this combination costs as much as the price of a new firearm. A good firearm. When you throw in the fact that I seldom practice with the laser, one would understand if buyer's remorse creeps in. Knowing that you have a similar system, affirms my decision. I am not alone!

I had this

Short Bus said:
I got a new toy today!!!!! I picked up a Ruger LC9 with a LaserMax laser for 369.99

0222121558.jpg

No more lasers for me!!! I would rather have a good set of night sights.

Short Bus said:
I just ordered a Nebo Iprotec firearm light for the SD9 VE

[video=youtube_share;EZaiMglJmN4]http://youtu.be/EZaiMglJmN4[/video]

I got it dirt cheap :biggrin:

[EBAY]171058810185[/EBAY]

Got my Tac light today :biggrin:

mms_picture_zps70f9847b.jpg
 

Short Bus

Member
Dec 2, 2011
1,906
[video=youtube_share;06aRQ-ejqmU]http://youtu.be/06aRQ-ejqmU[/video]
 

Grimor

Member
Mar 28, 2013
954
Carolina_Jake said:
yep its slide fire.... they have 2 or 3 versions out now , takes getting use to but man they are badass fun

I have one for my AR, haven't used it yet since I'm down to 1k rnds and don't really wanna get too much lower without being able to get more in.
 

Carolina_Jake

Member
Jun 7, 2013
28
Grimor said:
I have one for my AR, haven't used it yet since I'm down to 1k rnds and don't really wanna get too much lower without being able to get more in.

good thinking, Yeah its best to keep at least 1k per AR/AK/etc... and 1k to 1.5k per handgun ( main side arm).... Thats just my thoughts on it, I dont have any "pro advice" on it :smile:
 

Fishhunter911

Lifetime VIP Donor
Member
Nov 18, 2011
307
Here is my newest.. As with everything, I cannot help but mod it. Changed the grips from the wood to a more textured grip and added the Pierce finger grooves. Much better control. Next will be a stainless trigger and hammer.

Before:

na7aduqy.jpg


After:

ve4a4ute.jpg


Both of my everyday carries, depends on mood which one spends the day with me.

ry9uma7u.jpg
 

Short Bus

Member
Dec 2, 2011
1,906
Nice :thumbsup:

Fishhunter911 said:
Here is my newest.. As with everything, I cannot help but mod it. Changed the grips from the wood to a more textured grip and added the Pierce finger grooves. Much better control. Next will be a stainless trigger and hammer.

I'm glad I'm not the only one. Right now I have this list on it's way to me.

Apex spring kit

https://apextactical.com/store/product-info.php?pid57.html

Limbsaver Pro Grip

Amazon.com: Limbsaver Pro Full-Frame Compact Semi-Auto Handgun Grip: Sports & Outdoors

TRUGLO FIBER OPTIC SIGHTS (M&P sights fit the SD9/40)

[EBAY]380653093771[/EBAY]

Tools

[EBAY]310690977005[/EBAY] [EBAY]230575617360[/EBAY] [EBAY]140850802502[/EBAY]
 

Grimor

Member
Mar 28, 2013
954
xtitan1 said:
Speaking of green lasers being used by the military, those shots of Cairo show them being used
Unless the ones in the picture are for buckshot only, looks like a wide spread for a sight...
1372914199-crowds-celebrate-in-cairo-after-news-of-armys-ousting-of-president_2221605.jpg

Or it's just people with green laser pointers, them Egyptians love green lasers
 

xtitan1

Member
Jun 5, 2013
467
Grimor said:
Unless the ones in the picture are for buckshot only, looks like a wide spread for a sight...
1372914199-crowds-celebrate-in-cairo-after-news-of-armys-ousting-of-president_2221605.jpg

Or it's just people with green laser pointers, them Egyptians love green lasers

Haha Egyptians sure know how to turn a coup into an awesome rave
 

Grimor

Member
Mar 28, 2013
954
xtitan1 said:
Haha Egyptians sure know how to turn a coup into an awesome rave

coup? I thought it was a rave...
[video=youtube;iAwAnCj5PQw]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iAwAnCj5PQw[/video]
 

Fishhunter911

Lifetime VIP Donor
Member
Nov 18, 2011
307
Polished the trigger and hammer. I think it turned out pretty good....

bazy7y9y.jpg


6u4utatu.jpg
 

STLtrailbSS

Member
Dec 4, 2011
1,617
ohhhhh i want that!!!!! Very NICE
 

Playsinsnow

Member
Nov 17, 2012
9,727
Anyone know of a reputable online ammo dealer? I want a brick or two more of .22lr rounds, or more.. There's nothing in town at the moment. Any help is much appreciated.
 

Short Bus

Member
Dec 2, 2011
1,906
Playsinsnow said:
Anyone know of a reputable online ammo dealer? I want a brick or two more of .22lr rounds, or more.. There's nothing in town at the moment. Any help is much appreciated.

If you find .22lr at a reasonable price, please share.
 

Playsinsnow

Member
Nov 17, 2012
9,727
Short Bus said:
If you find .22lr at a reasonable price, please share.


Whats a reasonable price per round? I havent bought 22 in ten some years and it was cheap then. This whole shortage nonsense has me wanting to load the safe full of ammo haha
jimmyjam said:

Thanks! I found their site but I guess I started getting greedy. Now to find a box with more than 50rounds in it... Good to know I am in the right spot.
 

Short Bus

Member
Dec 2, 2011
1,906
Playsinsnow said:
Whats a reasonable price per round?

IMO the $0.05 a round is pushing it for .22, but if you don't have any (I have a little) you might have to pay if you want to shoot.
 

HARDTRAILZ

Moderator
Nov 18, 2011
49,665
5 cents a round is all I would psy but .22 is getting the hell gouged out of it lately.
 

Playsinsnow

Member
Nov 17, 2012
9,727
Yeah it is. I remember paying under 3cents a round. Now up to 30cents for a hallow point. :no:

There are a few stores around that I will check out in the AM and then maybe just buy some at < 20cents just to have. 9-16 is what I am seeing right now. Hopefully it doesn't go the other way.
 

HARDTRAILZ

Moderator
Nov 18, 2011
49,665
Just recently paid 23 cents a round for 9mm, no way I will pay that for .22.
 

Playsinsnow

Member
Nov 17, 2012
9,727
the roadie said:
My cost for reloading 9mm is 12c each. Would annoy me to pay more for somebody else to assemble it.

How much is your time worth? I know a few whole reuse shells, but how time consuming is it? How much do you save over an hour of"work"? Can I reload 100shells in an hour to save $11? Curious is all...
 

The_Roadie

Lifetime VIP Donor
Member
Nov 19, 2011
9,957
Portland, OR
I have a friend with the machine and dies for many calibers, so I just do it in his garage when I go for beers and bbq. More useful to be in the garage than listening to the women talk. I can do about 400-500 an hour, and local cost is not as low as Kyle's 23c, so I calculate the time is worth around $100/hour.
 

HARDTRAILZ

Moderator
Nov 18, 2011
49,665
I used to get 9mm reloads for virtually nothing until this crap came around. That excellent resource dried up quick.

My buddy reloads but does not do 9mm. Bigger rifle calibers and shotgun shells. Maybe I should look into buying the dies n such i need and using his stuff.
 

strat81

Member
Dec 29, 2011
399
Playsinsnow said:
How much is your time worth? I know a few whole reuse shells, but how time consuming is it? How much do you save over an hour of"work"? Can I reload 100shells in an hour to save $11? Curious is all...

Don't get hung up on the "how much is your time worth" unless you spend every waking hour engaged in some kind of activity that earns you money. According to http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/22/u...-but-is-still-6-below-its-2007-peak.html?_r=0, median household income is $52,100, which translates to $25.05/hr assuming 2,080 hours worked per year. I can crank out between 150 and 175 rounds per hour on my turret press. An progressive press will do 500 per hour. Considering premium ammo in most calibers is at least $1 per round for factory stuff and I can often handload for 50% of that, yes, it is worth my time to handload.

Either way, the value proposition varies based on what caliber you are loading. You'll see lower savings on 9mm and .223 compared to .44 Mag and .375 H&H. The amount you save also varies based on the prices you pay. Buy powder by the keg or case and you'll save more compared to someone who buys powder by the 1lb cannister. Buying in bulk also means you'll carry some inventory which is nice when ammo is scarce.

Handloaded ammo can also be "matched" to a particular firearm, result in better accuracy. You can make reduced loads, mid-range loads, hot loads, and everything in between.

One caliber I could not make the numbers worth with was 12ga, namely 1 1/8 oz target loads. Bulk packs are far cheaper and my costs were slightly higher than buying Winchester AA from Wal-mart. Perhaps if I buy shot by the pallet the numbers work.
 

Decado

Member
Sep 16, 2013
88
I know someone who was recently selling .22LR Remington Hollow Points 36 grain for as low as .15/rd with quantity. I sent him a message to see if he still has any. If that is a reasonable enough price I will pass his email along via PM to anyone interested.
 

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