Tool Talk

jimmyjam

Member
Nov 18, 2011
1,634
HARDTRAILZ said:
Lowers have never pressed out of TB without drilling ball joint on my TB. Even with giant compressor and proper cups. They suck as many mentioned on here in recent weeks.
i've never had to drill anything. actually, they usually come out easier than putting the new ones in. glad I don't live in the rust belt!
 
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Hypnotoad

Member
Dec 5, 2011
1,584
HARDTRAILZ said:
Lowers have never pressed out of TB without drilling ball joint on my TB. Even with giant compressor and proper cups. They suck as many mentioned on here in recent weeks.
Might have something to do with the abuse you put them through.
 

HARDTRAILZ

Moderator
Nov 18, 2011
49,665
Hypnotoad said:
Might have something to do with the abuse you put them through.
Could be. My uppers will pop out with some basic BFH work, but the lowers wont budge until I drill some relief holes in them. Both times I had to do it.
 

IllogicTC

Original poster
Member
Dec 30, 2013
3,452
HARDTRAILZ said:
Could be. My uppers will pop out with some basic BFH work, but the lowers wont budge until I drill some relief holes in them. Both times I had to do it.
Time to rig yourself an "assisted" press.

TIEROD.GIF
 

HARDTRAILZ

Moderator
Nov 18, 2011
49,665
Next time I am swapping the whole LCA. Prolly should a this time
 

IllogicTC

Original poster
Member
Dec 30, 2013
3,452
Went and got some new toys... I mean tools.

HF had a coupon for the 3-ton jack stands (that seem to be permanently on-sale anyway), so I nabbed a pair. Also got one of their 3/8" torque wrenches for $10. I would like a 1/4" one too but as I've read theirs isn't very trustworthy though the two bigger sizes are generally okay. I'll go a different brand for it.

While I was there I also picked up a 3/8" breaker bar so I don't have to use a ratchet on the tensioner (and there's other good uses too), and a 6" C-Clamp. I don't care too much about the "quick adjust" thing on there, but I needed a larger C-Clamp.

Then I went and wandered Home Depot, where I found a home tool set on sale for $20. Hammer feels a little safer than the cheap-o HF one I had got that was SUPPOSED to be a temporary hold-over, snub-nose pliers since my originals disappeared (I suspect in my roommates' room, and that room is a pit I refuse to get into), snips, small vice grips to complement my larger ones, another set of needle-nose. Also came with a standard 3/8" ratchet and a few sockets to act as backups, and a 25' tape measure which is a definite upgrade over my current 12'.

One thing I really appreciated it for though was the ratcheting screwdriver, my hands can't really handle turning standard drivers too well, and also came with a few long precision drivers (and a "bonus" extra precision driver set), now I have more than just 3 straights and 2 philips. Hex and torx were included.

I really, really like sales and deals!
 

Einst-Hawk

Member
Jan 31, 2014
105
Thought I would give everyone a peek into my tool chest:



Metric Wrenches
IMG_20140524_192608.jpg

Pliers and such
IMG_20140524_192620.jpg

Ratchets and extensions
IMG_20140524_192639.jpg

Standard wrenches and sockets - not much use for these anymore
IMG_20140524_192650.jpg

Screwdrivers, Torx bits, Easy outs
IMG_20140524_192701.jpg

Stuff
IMG_20140524_192754.jpg

Metric sockets
IMG_20140524_194350.jpg

Hammers
IMG_20140524_19271222.jpg
 
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glfredrick

Member
Jan 14, 2014
172
Einst-Hawk said:
Thought I would give everyone a peek into my tool chest:



Metric Wrenches
attachicon.gif
IMG_20140524_192608.jpg

Pliers and such
attachicon.gif
IMG_20140524_192620.jpg

Ratchets and extensions
attachicon.gif
IMG_20140524_192639.jpg

Standard wrenches and sockets - not much use for these anymore
attachicon.gif
IMG_20140524_192650.jpg

Screwdrivers, Torx bits, Easy outs
attachicon.gif
IMG_20140524_192701.jpg

Stuff
attachicon.gif
IMG_20140524_192754.jpg

Metric sockets
attachicon.gif
IMG_20140524_194350.jpg

Hammers
attachicon.gif
IMG_20140524_19271222.jpg
Amateur... :raspberry:

Actually, you're doing well compared to many homeowner-types. I'm just spoiled after having been in business for quite a while. Perhaps I'll post some pics after I get everything cleaned up from the LONG cold winter. Garage is a MESS right now!
 

Einst-Hawk

Member
Jan 31, 2014
105
glfredrick said:
Amateur... :raspberry:
Funny :thumbsup:


Yes, please post what you have. I like seeing what everyone else has. Gives me some ideas of what I might need in the future.
 

IllogicTC

Original poster
Member
Dec 30, 2013
3,452
One thing that can be done with that tool chest with drawers I've seen others do is getting foam mats (like at Costco or something) and trimming spots for your tools to sit in. Gives it a clean look and if you need to move the chest it greatly reduces the chance of stuff jumping around.

I plan on doing this when I get a chest w/ drawers.
 

dmanns67

Member
Apr 3, 2013
32,979
Ohio
IllogicTC said:
One thing that can be done with that tool chest with drawers I've seen others do is getting foam mats (like at Costco or something) and trimming spots for your tools to sit in. Gives it a clean look and if you need to move the chest it greatly reduces the chance of stuff jumping around.

I plan on doing this when I get a chest w/ drawers.
In my profession we call this 5S (Sort, Set In Order, Shine, Standardize, and Sustain) which is apart of lean manufacturing and six sigma. It is mandatory for all of my mechanics, electricians, tool makers, pipe fitters, tin smiths, and mill wrights tool box to have these inserts. All of our work centers have them as well. I believe Toyota was the first to implement the idea of 5S in the 70's or 80's.

The inserts are very handy for organization and a quick snap shot to see what tools are missing. On the down side, at least with our inserts, it limits the space of the tool box drawers. I will have to snap a pic of one of our work centers when I get back to work.

I am sure we all have 5S'ed our garage or work space, but not ave thought of it that way. after understanding 5S I realized I do that about once a year in my own garage.
 
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IllogicTC

Original poster
Member
Dec 30, 2013
3,452
dmanns67 said:
In my profession we call this 5S (Sort, Set In Order, Shine, Standardize, and Sustain) which is apart of lean manufacturing and six sigma. It is mandatory for all of my mechanics, electricians, tool makers, pipe fitters, tin smiths, and mill wrights tool box to have these inserts. All of our work centers have them as well. I believe Toyota was the first to implement the idea of 5S in the 70's or 80's.

The inserts are very handy for organization and a quick snap shot to see what tools are missing. On the down side, at least with our inserts, it limits the space of the tool box drawers. I will have to snap a pic of one of our work centers when I get back to work.

I am sure we all have 5S'ed our garage or work space, but not ave thought of it that way. after understanding 5S I realized I do that about once a year in my own garage.
Yeah, Toyota pioneered the system. We use 5S also, though I've never seen us shining anything, it's more about putting tools where they are best to be (and putting away and locking up when done), housekeeping standards, and not having anything on-hand that isn't a requirement for the position we are at. For example, you wouldn't need diagonal cutters for running a saw as there's no vinyl welds at that stage.

Went and got a couple more goodies today. I was considering a 3/8-1/2 adapter but put it back for now, and a square as right now I have nothing for checking square for around the house, which I didn't get either.

However I DID get a little set of offset screwdrivers. Straight, philips and square drive. Kobalt needs to step up their quality assurance, the first package I looked at had a straight and two squares with no philips. And got a new multimeter, my third one (sigh) but hopefully my last. Includes all the basics, plus frequency up to 10MHz and capacitance. I don't care about autoranging or not, but it does have it which is neat. My previous one didn't have the extra features I pointed out, and my first one is a basic analog meter :rotfl: Of course I've already played with it, did you know the generating station supplying my house is giving us 59.97 hz? With one small jump up to a hair over 60 at one point, must have been a major load coming off the system.

Also got a little storage organizer for the nuts and bolts, screws and nails.
 

dmanns67

Member
Apr 3, 2013
32,979
Ohio
I did a little tool shopping today as well. Picked up a couple grinding wheels, metal, and plastic cut off wheels for the Dremel. I picked up a 1/4", 3/8", and 1/2" socket adapters for my DeWalt drill/driver. Also picked up a brass brush attachment and a grinding/sharpening attachment for the DeWalt.

Socket adapters come in handy. I picked up a set of Craftmans 1/4" to 3/8", 3/8" to 1/4", 3/8" to 1/2", and 1/2" to 3/8" adapters off of Amazon for $15. I also have a battery terminal puller on the way.
 

IllogicTC

Original poster
Member
Dec 30, 2013
3,452
Yeah, I was thinking for adapting my 3/8 breaker to 1/2 to use with my axle nut socket in case it's tough to get off. But it's not like I couldn't fashion a cheater bar out of the stuff we have around here either.
 

dmanns67

Member
Apr 3, 2013
32,979
Ohio
Piece of pipe over a 1/2" ratchet. I have been in a spot where I did not have a pipe and used my 4-way lug wrench on the end on my 1/2" ratchet for extra leverage.
 

IllogicTC

Original poster
Member
Dec 30, 2013
3,452
dmanns67 said:
Piece of pipe over a 1/2" ratchet. I have been in a spot where I did not have a pipe and used my 4-way lug wrench on the end on my 1/2" ratchet for extra leverage.
We used to have some 6-foot-long sections of tubing for the fencing, but we let the neighbor dude have them as he's raising kids and appreciated a little bit of scrap to sell off and we appreciated having them not stacked on the side of the house. I could have had a pretty sweet cheater then. Even bike handlebars have been used (not by me), just poke a hole through the rubber grip or remove it entirely. I love resourcefulness.
 
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IllogicTC

Original poster
Member
Dec 30, 2013
3,452
Playing with my new toy, and the old ones. Each one is linked up to a speaker (the speaker itself is rated 4 ohms, but some have MUCH longer wires as they're off an old surround sound system).

13za4jt.jpg
 

Mark20

Member
Dec 6, 2011
1,630
IllogicTC said:
One thing that can be done with that tool chest with drawers I've seen others do is getting foam mats (like at Costco or something) and trimming spots for your tools to sit in. Gives it a clean look and if you need to move the chest it greatly reduces the chance of stuff jumping around.

I plan on doing this when I get a chest w/ drawers.
We commonly call this shadow boxing. Its not good to leave stuff that shouldn't be there when it goes on an aircraft.
 

IllogicTC

Original poster
Member
Dec 30, 2013
3,452
Mark20 said:
We commonly call this shadow boxing. Its not good to leave stuff that shouldn't be there when it goes on an aircraft.
I'd imagine when it involves commercial aircraft there's probably fines for leaving something behind. Is there?
 

Hypnotoad

Member
Dec 5, 2011
1,584
IllogicTC said:
Playing with my new toy, and the old ones. Each one is linked up to a speaker (the speaker itself is rated 4 ohms, but some have MUCH longer wires as they're off an old surround sound system).

13za4jt.jpg
That middle one doesn't look too accurate.
 

BlazingTrails

Member
Apr 27, 2014
19,409
IllogicTC said:
I'd imagine when it involves commercial aircraft there's probably fines for leaving something behind. Is there?
That's true! Even in some of the manufacturing facilities I have worked in every single part has to be accounted for. If you lose a washer the machine can not be started again until it is found! That can be pretty stressful lol
 

IllogicTC

Original poster
Member
Dec 30, 2013
3,452
Hypnotoad said:
That middle one doesn't look too accurate.
They don't all have solid connections, there was some light fluctuation due to that. I just twisted the wire around the probe for demonstration purposes. Each one is hooked up to a different speaker, I think that one was hooked to one with a super-long cord, which of course would increase resistance. I may do another round where all 3 are measured against a common resistance with a firm connection.

I don't expect 100% from that middle one anyway, had it a few years and it's a cheap-o $20 Wally World special. The one to the right is my new toy. The one to the left is the first one I ever got, like 6-7 years ago.
 

glfredrick

Member
Jan 14, 2014
172
Einst-Hawk said:
Funny :thumbsup:


Yes, please post what you have. I like seeing what everyone else has. Gives me some ideas of what I might need in the future.
Working on it. I need updated pics for insurance purposes anyway. I'm into tools at about $100K now, so insurance is a BIG DEAL. Generally, they "decide" that no homeowner has THAT many tools, so they feel any claim is an attempt at fraud. Only cure is pictures.

As soon as I get a rainy day in the garage so I can organize and snap shots...
 
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Mark20

Member
Dec 6, 2011
1,630
IllogicTC said:
I'd imagine when it involves commercial aircraft there's probably fines for leaving something behind. Is there?
Commercial and military. Not necessarily fines but you could get in various forms of trouble including termination. One place I worked went on the war path to prevent stuff from getting into the shipped products that shouldn't have been there. One more thing on the long list of things that made it a non-fun place to work. The upper management couldn't figure out you get more flies with honey than vinegar.

Reba McIntyre's personal jet had to land with the nose gear stuck up. When it was inspected to find out why, they pulled a large Maglight flashlight out. It was left in the wheel well and lodged in the gear preventing extension.
 

glfredrick

Member
Jan 14, 2014
172
dmanns67 said:
In my profession we call this 5S (Sort, Set In Order, Shine, Standardize, and Sustain) which is apart of lean manufacturing and six sigma. It is mandatory for all of my mechanics, electricians, tool makers, pipe fitters, tin smiths, and mill wrights tool box to have these inserts. All of our work centers have them as well. I believe Toyota was the first to implement the idea of 5S in the 70's or 80's.

The inserts are very handy for organization and a quick snap shot to see what tools are missing. On the down side, at least with our inserts, it limits the space of the tool box drawers. I will have to snap a pic of one of our work centers when I get back to work.

I am sure we all have 5S'ed our garage or work space, but not ave thought of it that way. after understanding 5S I realized I do that about once a year in my own garage.
I'd have to get a MUCH larger tool storage unit to do that! I'm already running two boxes with a side cabinet and another wood cabinet for the "plastic boxes" full of goodies that don't fit into drawers, and if I were to line out everything in the 5S style it would mean the "Mr. Big" box for me! Can't see over $20K for just a box though...

KEXN725A0PJH.jpg
 

IllogicTC

Original poster
Member
Dec 30, 2013
3,452
Mark20 said:
Commercial and military. Not necessarily fines but you could get in various forms of trouble including termination. One place I worked went on the war path to prevent stuff from getting into the shipped products that shouldn't have been there. One more thing on the long list of things that made it a non-fun place to work. The upper management couldn't figure out you get more flies with honey than vinegar.

Reba McIntyre's personal jet had to land with the nose gear stuck up. When it was inspected to find out why, they pulled a large Maglight flashlight out. It was left in the wheel well and lodged in the gear preventing extension.
I think I sent my ID badge out in a window. It never has turned up yet, I wonder if the customer hasn't cranked it open yet? :rotfl: I know not quite the same as a plane. My company goes on strange war paths, it doesn't help that some manager positions have too much overlap which doesn't make much financial sense and just sends each person in 3 directions to begin with.

I made a little list of tools I really would find some use in and need to acquire first if possible. Should help me direct my purchases toward things I really need first. I mainly deal in automotive, but have some stuff for the home on hand too and would like to get some more oriented in that direction.
 

glfredrick

Member
Jan 14, 2014
172
When shopping for decent tools at decent prices consider Snap On's Blue Point line. Blue Point are tools not specifically build by or branded exclusively by Snap On, but they are very high quality and carry the same warranty, service, etc.

A few that I highly recommend (and the Blue Point site is listed below):

http://www.snapon-bluepoint.com/en/index/

Automotive SETS:

http://www.snapon-bluepoint.com/en/products/list.asp?idtree=.0.63.66.79.

This SET is nice, with sockets, wrenches, etc.

http://www.snapon-bluepoint.com/en/products/detail.asp?id=483


Ratcheting wrench sets are real time-savers!

http://www.snapon-bluepoint.com/en/products/detail.asp?id=591

These bit sets are awesome -- GOOD STEEL!

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Blue-Point-32-piece-Bit-Set-w-Case-Snap-On-Tools-/281349661523?pt=US_Hand_Tools&hash=item4181bf2353
 
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IllogicTC

Original poster
Member
Dec 30, 2013
3,452
Blue Point appears to be above the "common" stuff (which is itself above the junk), but below the super-mega brands like Snap-On, Mac, etc. Is that about right?

Also, got me yet some more stuff today. Stuff I actually need. There's 7-piece ratcheting wrench sets on sale at The Home Depot for $20 (got an SAE and a metric set so $40) when the 5-piece sets usually cost $25. Not too bad I think, I'll need them in case I have to pop the alternator.

Then I got a flex-head 3/8" ratchet, and a hook/pick set. A bigger toolbox with drawers is already priced up, because the one I just got a while ago is already packed now :rotfl:
 

glfredrick

Member
Jan 14, 2014
172
IllogicTC said:
Blue Point appears to be above the "common" stuff (which is itself above the junk), but below the super-mega brands like Snap-On, Mac, etc. Is that about right?

Much of Blue Point rivals Mac, Matco, and Cornwall. EVERYTHING else is a cut below those, with the exception of a couple of specialty brands that are not commonly available, especially in the States. Craftsman is the worst of the bunch these days unless one gets their pro line, which is, in many cases similar to a Blue Point, Mac or Matco. Snap On is a cut above all of them. Price point is mid-way. Know that many automobile engineers design their vehicles around Snap On tool sizes. That means that a Snap On tool will fit and work, but a rival brand may not. For much of mechanics work, it is whatever fits, but there are some really trickly spots where nothing seems to fit at all (including Blue Point) -- it is there that the Snap On will fit. I found that to be the case one day during a car show when a person had to change out a Boyd's custom wheel. No socket would fit the lug and the machined hole for it except a particular Snap On brand. They actually called me (with my tool truck) to the show to figure out what would work. I've seen similar in dealerships of every brand.
 

IllogicTC

Original poster
Member
Dec 30, 2013
3,452
I figured it up, not including storage for the things I'm in at roughly 800 bucks on tools and at this point I'd say $100 investment will get the basic DIY-er all they need to do most simple and some moderate automotive jobs. To be fair, some of my stuff is for around-the-house also. Can't say I'm anywhere near the $100k league guy up there but this is just the stuff for my personal use, not used for a living but because it's fun and is an investment which pays itself off the more things I do myself.

More to the point, I finally got a new storage solution I've been thinking on. I was going to do it last week but held my money until this week so I could get a few more goodies to go in it. I got the 26" cabinet/chest combo Husky unit, now I have an appreciable amount of space to grow and can get an intermediate drawer chest or two to help fill the gap before I get another or do a full upgrade.

I looked at the HF ones, they look pretty nice but the stuff they had in-stock to take home right away was a bit above what I was looking to spend and a lot larger than I needed, and this house isn't exactly friendly in the square-footage region. I had also taken a look at some of the Kobalt stuff but it seemed to go straight from boxes maxing out at the size I had, straight to a giant thing that resembled a barbecue and cost over a grand, with no happy medium in-store.

And to complement my new storage solution, I finally got some stubby wrenches, a long-needed mini-pliers set, a long flat screwdriver that's designated for light pry bar use, and some various large wrenches (1", 19, 21, 22mm, my current stock only went up to 7/8" and 18mm) just in case. I'm a very happy camper, especially since now I can properly sort and lock my investment up. A few hundred is pocket change to the guy getting Snap On for a big garage or something, but it's a lot of money to me and I'd like to protect it lol.
 

MAY03LT

Member
Nov 18, 2011
3,422
Delmarva
glfredrick said:
For much of mechanics work, it is whatever fits, but there are some really trickly spots where nothing seems to fit at all (including Blue Point) -- it is there that the Snap On will fit.
I ended up buying a few older gen snap on flare wrenches for this very reason. I had a heck of a time doing some brake lines when my 3/8 craftsman pro and my matco flare wrenches wouldn't really bite into the fittings. I mean they fit, but when I got on them they wanted to start to round off the fittings. Ended up borrowing a buddy's snap on flared 3/8's and that did the job. That night I was on ebay.
 
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IllogicTC

Original poster
Member
Dec 30, 2013
3,452
For anyone less than the professional using tools for a living or an extreme tool nut with stacks of cash casually laying around the house, Snap On isn't the first choice to come to mind. But while I've seen plenty of people call them out on being way too expensive, I feel they just haven't been presented a scenario difficult enough where sheer precision in manufacturing of the tool is the absolute key. I mean, you want to turn some bolts, go grab a wrench, any wrench, yeah whatever. But there are moments where paying say $30 for a single small wrench ends up paying off.

The lifetime replacement used to be a big thing, but now it seems many tool labels are doing it. Tool trucks used to be mighty handy because you could call ahead of time or just get what you need right off the truck if you know they usually have it, and you don't even need to run to the store (provided it's not an emergency NEED IT RIGHT NOW scenario), but now Amazon makes getting pretty much any brand of anything on your doorstep at your convenience. Now what they have left is still some of the most important traits - professional grade quality, nice engineering and precision, and a Made in the USA pedigree.

I don't own any "truck tools." If I had stacks of cash or needed them for a living, I likely would. I get by with lesser brands as a weekender. I don't glorify or worship any one particular brand over another, as many brands have some interesting and unique concepts and twists on things. But I do rightfully respect the "big dog" brands. If a tool is $10 at Wal-Mart or $40 on the truck, there generally seems to be a good reason it costs more.
 

MAY03LT

Member
Nov 18, 2011
3,422
Delmarva
IMG_20140620_230110_450.jpg
IMG_20140620_230234_219.jpg

Well since I don't have the luxury of borrowing tools from work anymore it's time to start buying stuff. Got a ball joint press and the GM update kit to do the GM trucks/SUVs. Pretty nifty that OTC left room for add ons in the frame case since the update kit didn't come with a case.
 
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glfredrick

Member
Jan 14, 2014
172
When one is a pro, things like rounding off bolts make the difference between a profitable job and working extra hours for free to repair what just should have come apart. Many mechs are paid by the hours published in the repair guides, and if it takes them an extra hour or two to do the job they don't get paid extra. On the other hand, if they can beat the book time, they bank extra hours and make more money. As a for instance, my son spent a couple of days working at V3 Jeep Shop in Louisville for his older brother while were were there last week. He banked 22 hours in two days (16 hours of actual on the job time) because he workes faster than the book. He did a clutch on a jeep that booked 4.5 hours and had it done in 2.5 hrs. (yes, he is fast!). He got paid for the 4.5 but was already on another job for the additional 2 hours, literally doubling up his money per hour. He made about $600 in the two days of work. Had he spent the entire day on just the clutch he would have only been paid for the 4.5 hrs, even if it took him 8.

That's why pros have ALL the tools, the BEST tools, and also know just what works where, how to best use air, etc. It's also why they have huge tool boxes, not just for showing off their stuff, but so that they can touch whatever tool they need in seconds instead of digging through drawers that takes minutes or hours per day. Time is money!

I don't have the luxury of a big X huge tool box right now, so my stuff is, well, stuffed. Every drawer is packed full and I do have to do some digging to find what I need. Slows me down, but I'm not getting paid, so whatever. I DO have the stuff... Most everything that one could have on the level of a pro shop with the exception of a few of the large shop-supplied items like a vehicle lift, AC machine (I have portable equipment), transmission flusher, etc. I do have metal-working (inc. welding and fabrication), wood working, electrical and electronic, plumbing, grounds (landscaping), and gunsmithing tools, so I'm well equipped.
 

sawicksted

Member
Dec 7, 2011
366
I find I like a lot of the NAPA tools as their price is not "Snap On" but the tool quality is very good.....Life time war.....etc.
 

glfredrick

Member
Jan 14, 2014
172
sawicksted said:
I find I like a lot of the NAPA tools as their price is not "Snap On" but the tool quality is very good.....Life time war.....etc.
Napa isn't bad... They are a good compromise between the high dollar Snap On and pure crud like Craftsman. On par with Mac, Matco, and Blue Point for the most part.

Another company that I've seen with good compromise quality is K-Tools. Great value with decent performance. I used to carry a line of these on my tool truck for the entry-level guys that could not afford to move up to Snappy quality right away.

http://www.ktoolinternational.com/

http://www.toolsource.com/tool-international-m-15575.html?page=4&sort=3a
 
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sawicksted

Member
Dec 7, 2011
366
glfredrick said:
Napa isn't bad... They are a good compromise between the high dollar Snap On and pure crud like Craftsman. On par with Mac, Matco, and Blue Point for the most part.

Another company that I've seen with good compromise quality is K-Tools. Great value with decent performance. I used to carry a line of these on my tool truck for the entry-level guys that could not afford to move up to Snappy quality right away.

http://www.ktoolinternational.com/

http://www.toolsource.com/tool-international-m-15575.html?page=4&sort=3a
Yeah....
I'm in the "entry" level crew for the most part. I have quite a few snap on wrenches that I have picked up over the years too. Some blue point stuff as well.
 

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