the exhaust manifold crowd... :-(

[budwich]

I cut / drilled my "drill guide" plate. Still waiting on amazon to delivery the irwin bolt extractor kit / drills so I haven't drilled the hole that aligns with the broken bolt hole... just center punched where I think it should go.

some more questions... should I attempt the extraction and just keep increasing the drill size until I get most of the old bolt out and then try to run a tap to clean out whats left... maybe using a short bolt in the end.... which is maybe what gm did in the back? I lifted the washer tank to gain more space / access to the area. I am hoping ... that I might get a drill in there now although it depending on how long the shaft of the bit is ... and most of my drills are pretty "full body" so I still might have to use some form of right angle adapter. I picked up some carbide grinder bits to see if I can flatten the bolt surface a bit as it has a significant angle to it ( as can be seen from the earlier picture of the snapped portion).

forget the "doughnut" question... its obviously from looking at the joints involved.

 

[mrrsm]

That is a very nice piece of work you've done there...

The Game at Hand is to drill out only as much 'meat' from the center of the Broken Stud as is necessary to serve two purposes:

(1) Use the smallest EZ Out possible... But not so small as to get Snapped Off inside of the Broken Bolt ...to avoid reducing its center mass so much that the EZ Out action warps what is left of the stuck thread-lines and jams the remainder in tightly. Gradually increase the Drill Bit size to find just the right compromise between these conflicting issues. DO NOT OVER-DRILL INTO THE BOLT! 1nce the EZ Out can get a decent Bite down inside there... it WILL back out the Busted Bolt Piece,

(2) Get (1) Right ...Well enough to ensure that the Broken Bolt WILL come out... Work slowly in there and really 'Think Tactile'... FEEL what you are doing! Mind that the Depth of these EM Head Bolt Holes is only 25 MM!

About "Tapping The Hole" (There is a Bad Joke in there ...Somewhere) Please ...Delete that Expression from your Mechanic's Lexicon and instead choose to use "Thread Chasers". Taps are the inclined plane screw equivalent of a Surgeon's Scalpel... and are designed strictly for Cutting Metal Out... So if you use an 8MM X 1.25MM "Thread Chaser" ...you'll spare the destruction of the in-dwelling, Butter Soft Aluminum Engine Head Bolt Holes. Amazon has the kit for these Metric Thread-Chasers:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000XJ48V0/?tag=gmtnation-20

 

[budwich]

thanks for the guidance as "bolt extraction" is an art that I have never tried. There appears to be lots of discussion on the net about chasers versus taps. As with most, it is hard to tell what's what as "opinions" fall on both sides. I have used taps to clean and "rethread" with success as I usual am spinning them in with fingers and the "rethreading" was very limited and was more to take out "fractured bolt metal".

on a side note, it does appear that I can get my cordless drill in the area so hopefully that will make for a better drilling as opposed to relying on a right angle adapter.

 

[budwich]

The irwin extractor set showed up this afternoon. My concern lies with the "recommended bit size" on the package for M8 (actually says M7-9... bit is about 6.5mm). Basically the bit is "just" shy of the threadings... meaning that if you are off just a bit from "dead center", you will drilling the receiving threads of the head. Further, to me there won't be much /any bolt left to use the extractor on.... probably using a tap would take it out... maybe. Perhaps going down one size is a better "fit"... M5-7 with the bit appearing to be a 4mm reverse bit. If I do the "math", at "dead center", this would leave about 1mm of "solid metal" around the drilled hole and about 1mm of threading metal or there abouts.

 

[mrrsm]

If your "Centering Drill Plate and Drilled Out Bolt" combo align just right and the Kit you got includes a Reverse Twist Drill sized to fit inside of your rig... after you have removed say an 1/8" to 3/16" depth of Metal... try removing the entire Plate/Bolt Rigging...and then after ensuring that your Reversing Position is set correctly to operate counter-clockwise and your Drill Bit is TIGHT... with moderate inward pressure...you might get just the right amount of "bite" to reverse the Broken Off Stud... right out of the head... and then the choice of which EZ Outs to choose from can be saved for another project.

 

[budwich]

still no joy in getting the bolt. My hole isn't perfectly in the center of the bolt piece.... so when trying to use the extractor, part of the extractor is binding on the head while the other section is binding on the remainder of the "shell" of the bolt. It looks like my only opportunity / method now is to grind out the remainder shell as best I can and then try "retapping/thread chase" what's left of the threading depending on how good the "grinding" goes.... :-( fingers are crossed though.

 

[budwich]

still no luck. grinding the bolt is difficult to know when I have started to hit the wall of the engine head. Another question, I was wondering if I could do a "progressive tap method"..... try tapping in a 7mm and then go to 8 mm after that. Will there be too much material taken out by the 7mm tap to allow the 8mm thereafter to provide sufficient threading of the hole and subsequent hold for the new bolt?

 

[budwich]

well the rat hole get deeper. A "half moon" shape of bolt "remains" is jammed at the bottom of the hole. Because of it shape, I can't drill is out (ie. causes off center drilling which will eat the sides of the head hole). There isn't really enough depth of hole to get a good solid bolt hole for a shorter bolt. :-( I tried punching it down (probably a mistake) but it didn't flatten or sink any further.

 

[Sparky]

Can you get something half-moon shaped (like a small rounded file) to fit next to it and then turn?

 

[budwich]

not really, its jammed in there pretty well. I thought I could punch it down / break it off but its not happening. :-(

I have tried drilling but it wanders because there is no "good" surface for the drill bit to get started well. Guess the question now it, well a helicoil repair work? Basically drill what ever I can out and hope there isn't some much damage to the head the a helicoil will seat well.... maybe.

 

[budwich]

So I ground out as much of the bolt as I could (dremel carbide). Of course, there is lots of messed up threads in side the hole from all the drilling / grinding. :-( A new bolt doesn't grab much for about the first 1/4-3/8 inch.... and then it stops travelling / turning about 1/4-3/8 further down the hole... so potentially I am only seeing / using a very limited amount of threads for holding. Might not be sufficient. A helicoil might be in my future... have people had success with this type of repair?

 

[budwich]

I temporally installed old manifold (a couple bolts) to check the hold on the "troubled hole"... :-( Basically, no hold at all. So that solves the question about the existing hole's integrity. Now the question is: should I try tap out the existing hole to the next size up (ie. 10mm) or should I attempt a helicoil insert repair for 8 mm bolt?

 

[Mooseman]

Well, you basically drill out and tap to that next size (or larger) to put the Helicoil in anyway. I'd just go to the next size bolt. DO NOT DRILL TOO BIG OR TOO DEEP. @MRRSM has experience with this, drilling into a water passage.

 

[budwich]

thanks.... I am some what concerned with this (drilling too deep)... I might have already gone deep when I was drilling out the bolt. I had marked the depth but frustration got the best of me as I chased that darn bolt.

Mooseman, are you saying that the "heli coil" insert is basically a 10mm bolt in terms of threading?

 

[djthumper]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Threaded_insert

 

[budwich]

thanks... "a heli we will go"... actually the canadian tire equivalent...

 

[budwich]

well not so fast... :-( So a "heli coil" like set for 8mm bolt has a threader that the square shank doesn't fit my "lowly" socket tap adapter (only goes to 1/4). That means, I need to also get a socket adapter as there is no room to spin the tap. So I am re-thinking the 10mm bolt instead.

 

[budwich]

So I did 21/64 drill out and then a 10mm 150 tap. The bolt has a bit of "slop"... probably more my tap technique may not be so good.
Anyways, the 10mm gets about 9 turns before is "bottoms out" on potentially the end of the tapped hole because I can only tap so far as there is still remnants of the bolt at the bottom which I didn't want to play with /drill any more for fear of misaligning... and thus the tap gets hung up a bit at it reaches the end. I think I get about 5/8-3/4 in worth of threading, hopefully enough holding power even with "slop".

 

[budwich]

It took some effort but got the bolts aligned and ready for tightening sequence. Still somewhat concerned about thread lock or not (right now not). 15 ftlbs seems pretty "thin" for holding this thing on.

 

[budwich]

well... well.... I am an idiot. :-( So I spent most of my time focused on the bolt that I broke at the front. Remember at the start of this, I mentioned that the very rear bolt came out kind of easy (surprise) and was shorter (post "manufacturing" by someone... gm dealership). Well, I went to try the tightening sequence and what do you know, that bolt has no holding power, just spins. If you recall at the start of this thread also the the front and rear ports were burn marked on the inside indicating a leak. Now I know why. Thanks dealership. :-( I not sure I have much / any recourse on this but I probably need to at least try... I doubt anything will happen. :-(((((

 

[Mooseman]

You could try just using the bolts you can and hope it seals enough. But these things are so fragile that as soon as it gets hot, it will probably warp.

Maybe there is a broken piece deeper in there and when they tried torquing it, the few threads it had stripped.

What about a short Helicoil?

 

[budwich]

the biggest problem is getting at it. you need a really short 21/64 bit along with a very "stubby" right angle drill / head / arbor. :-( I am not even sure the dealer would even attempt it without taking off the head. That's probably how it got to where it is... they didn't want to have to remove the head on a "warranty job" so they did their "best" at "cobbling" knowing that it could last for while (1 year) and after that, if I brought it in, they would likely give me the "oh, we had problems with this and that and have to take the head off... ching, ching, thank you very much but we will get you fixed up as good as new"... ya right.

 

[budwich]

talked with the dealership shop foreman (only person available). He basically said the work was done correctly and its more than 4 years. He suggested getting a machine shop (or otherwise) to put try the thread insert since the dealership doesn't do that. Of course, most machine shops want just the head. :-( Certainly doesn't look good. He said he would talk with the service manager but gave me the impression to not hold my breath. He also said if there was a part problem (seems strange that there is so much difference between the manifold and the gasket... 1/2 in center hole / end to end hole) yet the third party manifold lines up perfectly with the gasket.... that is a GM problem and not dealership... but didn't give me much further to go on from there. Basically, he said they did what was warranteed and that's that.

 

[budwich]

well I am throwing in the towel so to speak. The corner garage says they "could do it" and will at least look at to see "what it will take / cost".
So although I am willing to spend some money to get it there, I am not willing to necessarily "sell the farm". So the further question is: IF it is "questionable" in terms of cost (and maybe even success without removing the head), what happens if I just decide to run with 10 out 11 bolts therein? I assume, one is the potentially for leaks as in o2 in causing too lean conditions forcing increase fueling, and another, the potential of CO leaking maybe into the cabin via the ventilation systems / heater / AC (probably small chance of that though).

 

[Sparky]

If it leaks, it'll leak as it has done already, and likely just be a bit noisier and get some exhaust in the engine bay. It isn't likely to suck air in because of where it is at.

 

[budwich]

Probably right. Went for a short highway drive with torque running monitoring fuel trims. It would appear from the brief test that the LT trim is behaving a bit better as it is "stable" at 0.0 for a lot of the time where as before (no the same actual test) LT trim would be slightly negative at -2 or so. Hopefully, the estimate won't be "out of line" and if the work is chosen, that it won't do more damage than repair ... my biggest fear.

 

[Mooseman]

Can you hear a leak? Usually sounds like a ticking noise.

 

[budwich]

it sounds pretty good... certainly better than the old. I have other noise in the front end / engine compartment that I am battling but I don't think there is any "ticking".

 

[Mooseman]

Personally, I'd call it done. Maybe give all of them a re-torque after a few heat cycles just to be sure but other than that, I think it's good enough.

 

[budwich]

thanks for the suggestion / support. It looks that way as the garage "estimate" is ~$400. So unless it "opens up" soon / often, I will likely pass for now. It will probably break again in 2-3 years based on current experience.

 

[mrrsm]

I'm damned sorry that all of your prior efforts lead to more troubles... But since you have the Best Understanding of Electronics and Wiring issues of the majority of us... with that comfort level you have with Electricity... if you have access to a Mig Welder and perhaps a small tank of Argon Gas... you might still be able to get through this nightmare using the technique applied successfully in this video:

 

[budwich]

thanks... no problem, you guys gave me enough info to get to a "run point" which is fine. The garage was able to get a "longer bolt" on for $150 ... that was supposed to be "give me an estimate" but was the bill when I showed up... :-( Not sure how many threads are holding it but it probably can't be any worse than it was previously from the dealer. Hopefully, it will last a few years. On to the water pump and fan clutch. Hopefully, there won't be any bolt gotcha. I hope to use the chain method to hold the clutch for loosening as the readings herein gave a good description of that method. It would be nice if it only takes an hour or two... but I figure at my pace, maybe a day or two with luck...

 

[mrrsm]

I'd like to Update @budwich 's Thread with some interesting ...and heretofore unknown to me... New Information about an almost Universal Set of Exhaust Manifold and Header Bolts for GM Vehicles Made by Felpro via Part# ES-75120.

As usual and expected, when it comes to having FelPro Quality... These measure out at M8X 1.25 X 30 MM and come as a Set of (12) Flanged, Fully Threaded Bolts. They display the Highest Quality Black Steel bearing 10.9 Hardness also Blue Powder Coating Protection is present. These are much preferred to using any Stainless Steel Bolts for the GM Stock Exhaust Manifolds that get attached to Aluminum Engine Heads as well as for typical Exhaust Header Flange Bolt Ups... ( But NOT the Dorman Versions with the Thicker Bolt Flanges).

According to the Packages Documentation... These are Perfect for the Following Cross-Platform GM Vehicles-Engines:

6.2L, 6.0L, 5.3L, 4.8L and the GM Atlas 4.2L

...as well as for these Chrysler Engines:

Chrysler 3.8L , Chrysler 3.3L

Pretty soon, I'll be using THIS Felpro Bolt Set to install some Stainless Steel Headers on my 2000 Chevrolet Silverado 5.3L Engine and afterwards I'll update if there are any problems with their length and fitting issues as a follow on Post.

Here are some "Beef Cake" Images of the Whole Shebang:

 

[Mooseman]

So these are basically regular 10.9 graded bolts in Felpro packaging. I'd look at my local fastener supply house for the same thing at much cheaper cost, like I did way back when I replaced my manifold. All were in good condition and came out easy when I pulled the manifold before scrapping the truck 6 years later.

If unavailable elsewhere, these would be a good substitute.

 

[mrrsm]

Hmmmmm... Well, I suppose I could have done that... But in THIS case:

(1) I used one of our Preferred Vendors: RockAuto.
(2) I got precisely the Fasteners I wanted...and from a Quality Company: FelPro.
(3) I did not have to leave the house... (My Favorite Part in all of this...)
(4) I received my Order very quickly.
(5) I only Paid... Wait for it... $3.62* for the Felpro Part# ES-75120 Bolt Set.

So... I think ...I made out Okay... ( :>)

*See the attached RockAuto Receipt for 'Proof of Purchase'

 

[xavierny25]

Hard to see since it's in a smaller print and shipped from a different location from RA.
I ordered those up for the TBSS back in may before the American racing manifolds went in along with the slp exhaust.

 

[Mooseman]

That was a good price on those bolts. Just noticed that yours were on wholesaler closeout, which explains that price. My search on RA came to $16.22USD not including shipping. Prices I saw on the Net was anything between $15-25 for the set. At your price, I would have gone with them too especially since you already had other stuff ordered for combined shipping.

 

[mrrsm]

@gmcman has a similar Thread that deserves a Link to this one as it concerns the only time that it becomes necessary to employ the (5)MM Longer Exhaust Manifold Bolts(M8X 1.25 X 35MM) is when the Dorman Exhaust Manifold for the GM LL8 4.2L Engines is installed instead of GM's OEM Flavor. Likewise, as clarified by @Mooseman in Post # 74... The Online Fastener Supply House was the "Go To" solution in his case:

Exhaust manifold with proper length bolts

I'm looking to replace my exhaust manifold, I hear the Dorman has worked well, but I have read about using 35mm bolts instead of 30mm. I assume these are the manifold to head bolts. Any particular bolt I should use?

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