so who still uses the old site?

[The_Roadie]

Is it a sin that RayVoy, a few others and I hang out there from time to time? Or should I completely convert to the dark side?

Been meaning to talk to you about that..... Seriously, if you believe in the enthusiast-owned non-profit business model behind this site, and don't agree with the profit-sucking, community-destroying, parasitical business model practiced by Vertical Scope, why would ANYONE want to post up there and perpetuate their scam? Adding posts to their stats, answering noob questions to add to the archives, instead of using PMs to invite the noobs back here to where the community is, is something I'd never consider. Not demanding exclusivity like some sort of loyalty test, but personally, I'm confused why anyone would go back there to contribute. This is actually the subject of a separate discussion in a couple of threads, including http://gmtnation.com/f18/so-who-still-uses-old-site-959/ and http://gmtnation.com/f18/if-you-have-trailvoy-account-recruit-few-noobs-gmtnation-com-2789/ and http://gmtnation.com/f18/banned-invisible-trailvoy-members-check-tell-us-why-1683/

 

[CaptainXL]

Been meaning to talk to you about that..... Seriously, if you believe in the enthusiast-owned non-profit business model behind this site, and don't agree with the profit-sucking, community-destroying, parasitical business model practiced by Vertical Scope, why would ANYONE want to post up there and perpetuate their scam?

Exactly what is the scam? Also, it doesn't take a genius to figure out that all they are doing is trying to make a profit. Something everyone looks for in their paycheck.

Adding posts to their stats, answering noob questions to add to the archives, instead of using PMs to invite the noobs back here to where the community is, is something I'd never consider. Not demanding exclusivity like some sort of loyalty test, but personally, I'm confused why anyone would go back there to contribute.

To help others in need.

This is actually the subject of a separate discussion in a couple of threads, including http://gmtnation.com/f18/so-who-still-uses-old-site-959/ and http://gmtnation.com/f18/if-you-have-trailvoy-account-recruit-few-noobs-gmtnation-com-2789/ and http://gmtnation.com/f18/banned-invisible-trailvoy-members-check-tell-us-why-1683/

I just don't understand the animosity.

 

[The_Roadie]

I just don't understand the animosity.

Trust me, it's real. Let's take this discussion to one of those other threads.

 

[CaptainXL]

Trust me, it's real. Let's take this discussion to one of those other threads.

ok, move em

 

[Canadian Mike]

Hey! I made the "cool crowd" list!

Me too.

 

[Copasta]

I had no idea about this site until I posted on the OS about a problem with my TB's rear air not working! I hadn't been on the site for a LONG time, but after posting my question in one of the threads, I received a PM from someone named "-------" telling me about the new site! Whoever that was (didn't come up when I listed them as "referred by" on this site!), thanks SO MUCH for tuning me in to this site! Corporate greed is something I will have NO PARTS in! Glad to be here supporting you guys! Can't wait to get answers on some tech stuff! Thanks again!

 

[BO TIE SS]

I received a PM from someone named "-------" telling me about the new site!

We'll just keep that information a secret from prying eyes.

(angry owners from the OS would love to know who to ban)

 

[The_Roadie]

Exactly what is the scam?

The scam is explained here: http://gmtnation.com/f18/trailvoy-verticalscope-scamming-members-advertisers-1609/

Also, it doesn't take a genius to figure out that all they are doing is trying to make a profit. Something everyone looks for in their paycheck.

Of course. It's a business model that works for them. Many (if not most) of us disagree with the concept that the motorsport communities are better served by that sort of parasite. Excessive ads drive away new members until they figure out AdBlock. Any profit sent to Toronto drains resources that could be spent to benefit the community, such as for Carlisle, contests, products, etc. Our community started and was built on the owner-enthusiast non-profit model. And it worked well for a long time. Vertical Scope was damaging it, and to us, their need for profit was irrelevant. Their greed was too high a price to pay if there was an alternative using the former business model.

It's a bit like the difference between buying your produce from local organic farmers, or that imported from the nearest exploitive labor rate country by mega-chain supermarkets who pay their workers minimum wages that they can't support a family on. It's a political statement as much as a technical one.

To help others in need.

Yeah, we pity the poor noobs who find trailvoy by Googling their way. For most of us, it means inviting them here rather than adding to the post count and technical content of the OS. Again, it's a protest, and it's a darn shame not all the noobs get the word. The clever and perceptive ones do, though.

I just don't understand the animosity.

A bit more explanation is here: http://gmtnation.com/f5/welcome-gmtnation-com-heres-story-226/

Vertical Scope and autoguide.com have been destroying motorsport forums for over four years. Offroadtb.com was started by me and a couple of others within a few weeks of when VS bought trailvoy, in case we offroaders found the changes to be too onerous. It didn't go downhill at trailvoy as fast as we initially feared, but ORTB is thriving.

It bears posting again, but this is how VS was thought of after buying and destroying a Ducati forum:

[video=youtube;FV7bSXSkOI8]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FV7bSXSkOI8[/video]

 

[MDBT]

Vertical Scope owns and operates close to 250 automotive websites and hundreds more powersport, tech and other enthusiast sites. Allowing one site to carve it's own software path independent of the administrators for VS would be detrimental to the administration of all sites. The "straw that broke the camel's back" was reportedly a set of advertisements that the staff had to be naive to think wouldn't show up (just look at any other VS forum) and that can be easily resolved with a simple free multi platform browser plugin.

You people lived under VerticalScope's rule for two years so I am curious as to why you waited so long to decide to create a rival site. I know it takes some time for new owners to bring their changes upon the site but I would have thought it was done well before November of last year.

 

[The_Roadie]

... I am curious as to why you waited so long to decide to create a rival site. ...

I started the organizational process for offroadtb.com the first WEEK after they took over trailvoy, as soon as I did ten minutes of googling what happened to the culture on other sites they bought.

But I don't have the technical chops to initiate a site like this. It took a while for the entire team to have the spare time and initiative to begin, especially jman.

As explained here: http://gmtnation.com/f5/welcome-gmtnation-com-heres-story-226/

We also held out an irrational hope that the VS admin's commitments might come true. We volunteers were so gullible. We're not going to be anything but embarrassed at the delay, though. In retrospect, it should have been done the first month, except they lulled us into inaction with what turned out to be lies.

They EVEN TODAY promise a sticker package with premium memberships and since VS closed the merchandise store as soon as they took over, that's never happened. How hard would it be to READ their own site and take down false promises? Why no support for a store or meets?

And in what way is this a rival site? It's where what we think of as the community happens to hang out. The beer is cheaper and comes with fewer stings attached. VS only feels threatened by us because they care for the ad revenue; not the platform, not the people.

The last couple of "minders" we had admitted they were responsible for overseeing 50-70 sites EACH! VS was investing as little time as possible into the care and feeding of their adopted communities - it was ludicrous how little they would invest to milk them. What a parasitical business model.

 

[MDBT]

ORTB is a niche and I would have understood its presence even without the VS buyout of TV just as I see the purpose of the TBSSowners forum. TBSS and ORTB have a specialized subset of information and an enthusiast atmosphere which is often different than the interests of the general GMT360 owner community. For instance you will not see many questions and threads about SAS or 1/4 mile timeslips from your average TB owner.

Since I found this place the back story has been put front and center. As I can't seem to keep myself from clicking on the threads with this subject matter when they pop up on the "new posts" search I figure I might as well get what Paul Harvey calls "the rest of the story". Thank you for the clarification, I was genuinely interested in the response.

My use of the word "rival" was not done without forethought nor was it used in malice. GMTN added a few extra areas (that aren't getting much activity) but still focuses on the GMT360 platform. As you stated it's another place for the community to hang out which I think is a great way to look at it and also the mindset that will be necessary to bring GMTN out of the shadow of TV. But both sites are in competition for the same users and their content and as a result each site can be said to be a rival to the other. The staff supported spam, initial PM upon joining, threads like this and other comments by staff and members in the open forum are constant reminders of such a rivalry.

I like this site but I can't wait until the furor dies down and threads like these are no longer the ones with the most activity.

 

[The_Roadie]

...both sites are in competition for the same users and their content ...

But the essential difference is the motivation. At least to me.

On our side, I've likened it to boy scouts competing over a small population of grannies who need to cross the street. A boy scout troop with a shortage of grannies is a group frustrated because it can't do enough good deeds to feel useful. We import grannies because they complete us. We make no more money from a large population of grannies than a small one. We discuss grannies a lot because the other neighborhood has a surplus of them they're not properly helping. It bothers us to see unhelped grannies, but we can't go over there and openly help them because the street gangs (what their boy scouts are underneath the uniform) censor us and drive us away. But they don't HELP their grannies, they just like to collect them. It's granny-abuse, I tell ya. I hate to see it happen in ANY neighborhood.

VS needs grannies to try to sell them their commercial street-crossing escort service - $50 a year will buy you non-guaranteed access to somebody in a boy scout uniform to help you find the crossing button on the stop light pole (the search button) so the granny can press it to get across the street on her own (locate the archived answer to their need). If those fake boy scouts really cared about the grannies, they'd use some of that fee to make sure the questions were answered competently and swiftly by compensated staff who knew the platform. But they just take the money, skim enough off the top to compensate Rob Laidlaw and his team for their "visonary" tactic to monetize communities like ours, and abandon the asylum to the inmates. What's the benefit to the community (the ants in their ant farm) after the purchase? More stable hosting? That's it?

We do it altruistically; they do it commercially. I believe that gives us the moral high ground in this jihad. YMMV.

Help us get higher in the granny's search engine results, and the focus will naturally change. We have the granny-helping gene in our constitutions, and that's now missing in that other neighborhood.

 

[Mark20]

This subject has actually been pretty dormant for about two weeks, replaced with significant platform discussions.

For better or worse its risen again probably helped by a recent influx of new members wanting to know details of what happened. It should die off again, hopefully longer this time. But I can see the subject rising again and again over the course of the next year.

 

[Jman423]

I like this site but I can't wait until the furor dies down and threads like these are no longer the ones with the most activity.

If you were along for the ride, you would completely understand the resentment. I don't look at TrailVoy as the rival, I look at VerticalScope as the rival. We've been made promises that were never delivered, we've been lied to, and we've been accused of things that either never happened, or happened in a completely different manner.

I challenge anyone to find more positive comments about a VS site-takeover than negative comments. The masses tell the whole story.

We dumped what I would consider a LOT of money into starting this site up because of how strongly we felt about the negative affects of VS on the community. Of the two founders, one dropped a LOT of money, and the other spent MANY hours volunteering time to get the site up and running. From there, the remaining staff helped get the ball rolling (along with some early adopters), and here we are.

If the original owner, the founder of TrailVoy, hadn't come into hard times financially, there is a very good chance that TrailVoy would still be an enthusiast owned site. As it stands now, it is not a website, it is a billboard and an archive. Members, vendors, advertisers, and supporters are all being lied to, right from the moment they all sign up, it is there for everyone to see.

How many T-Shirts, Decals, or free Premium Memberships have they GIVEN AWAY in the 3 years they've owned the site? Care to compare that to how many we've given away since we launched only 5 months ago... or even since yesterday (Easter)?

If VS turned that site back over to the enthusiast community, we would gladly support it, but while it is only an inlet for money and an outlet for BS... we'll focus on our goals- to help people that need it.

 

[Copasta]

We'll just keep that information a secret from prying eyes.

(angry owners from the OS would love to know who to ban)

Good point, Bo Tie SS! Sorry, I should have thought of that before I posted it! Hope it didn't get anyone in trouble over there, as that IS how I found my way here!

 

[Wyle]

Pretty soon the active members will be able carpool to a meet in one EXT.

View attachment 20266

 

[BO TIE SS]

Pretty soon the active members will be able carpool to a meet in one EXT.

Wow. I haven't seen it that low since joining in December 2007.

Spoiler

I'll try not to celebrate publicly, but it's hard to feel sorry for them after they banned my ass. (and the rest of me)

 

[The_Roadie]

Pretty soon the active members will be able carpool to a meet in one EXT.

Shocking. They're being MUCH more honest about what counts as an "active" member, and timing them out. Used to be any member who glanced at the site for 3 seconds any time in the previous WEEK was counted as "active" to inflate their scamful stats.

Maybe they had a server reboot in the middle of the night. This bears watching.

BTW, you might want to edit out the first entry in those sorts of screen shots. It reveals your lurking ID.

Here's this morning's stats:

View attachment 20269

 

[LordBear]

bit of a rant i guess.. i get the idea... trying to promote this site and sticking it to VS. .. but getting multiple msgs in pm's is getting old. i found this site and supported it with out any invites. i agree with what this site is for and doing. however i am getting really annoyed with nagging every time i post something on the os in pms. i dont do so often and for the noobs coming in i do pm them give them the info for this site.

i will continue to stay at the os as well due to it having a massive library of info. years of accumilation. and venders that i have not seen here yet..although i dont think there active there at all any more either but i do see posts to there ads from time to time. since i have came here i have asked my questions i have needed here. some answered some not. have gotten offers of help and support which im greatfull for. but being on an almost zero budget and having way to much free time on my hands i need to self diagnose my vehicle issues the best i can from the info on both of these sites and suffering from a lot of boredom i can not help but post msgs around...specially when i see some one saying they have 990000 miles..lol...wow..either its a typo and funny or wow..they got a chit load of miles.. i know the pms im getting are probably ment well. but they feel dictative..

 

[The_Roadie]

... i know the pms im getting are probably ment well. but they feel dictative..

I know MANY of us are into the process of inviting noobs because HERE is where they will be better served by active answers. The OS of course has the archives. Good for searching, but not for building an active community.

The staff members here were particularly stung by the poor treatment by VS over the last couple of years, so we feel the emotion more than the general populace.

But it's a free country. Do whatever floats your boat. But know that any post over there just adds incrementally to the statistics that VS uses to pretend to the advertisers that they have command of ALL of our eyeballs. They do not. It enriches them unjustly, and to me, it's offensive if they make a tenth of a penny more than they deserve, given their abusive history. Many folks don't mind if they make an unjust dollar, or perhaps an even higher threshold.

If anybody feels like the noobs are better served by answering their questions over there, live it up. I can't promise the PMs are going to stop, unless we keep a list of folks who we shouldn't pester. It's like having a friend who goes into a store whose owner's politics you disagree with - you want to keep them as a friend, but you can't let it go unmentioned when you see him continue to go into that store. After a while, you have to wonder if your friend just doesn't share your politics, and if the friendship runs deeper than the difference in their depth of feeling for the politics. I admit many people just don't let their politics get in the way of hunting a bargain. My commitment to certain things runs deeper than that. YMMV.

 

[Wyle]

BTW, you might want to edit out the first entry in those sorts of screen shots. It reveals your lurking ID.

Not if you're not logged in. Besides, "Wyle" still has a valid library card to visit the OS.

 

[The_Roadie]

Not if you're not logged in.

I forgot that. You just can't do PMs or get a "New posts" list without a login.

 

[Me007gold]

It seems the GM social media reps are back

 

[The_Roadie]

It seems the GM social media reps are back

Cool. Spammers run rampant, useless GM flacks post insane suggestions unmolested, and the VS admin only visits once a week or so for a partial thread clean-up. Sort of like a free-run dog park where nobody ever picks up the poop.

If anybody's wondering, posts of the kind that the GM social media flacks make make over there violate our rules and would get them sanctioned here. We do not suffer fools gladly.

 

[The_Roadie]

A confused noob or corporate tool didn't appreciate his invitation:

Re: Did you get the memo about the new site?
yea smaart ass comments get you no were lol hope u still have this profile to spread the word after I report it for third party infrigement

I suspect he has no idea what the word "infringement" means. "Inconceivable."

 

[Jman423]

A confused noob or corporate tool didn't appreciate his invitation:

Re: Did you get the memo about the new site?
yea smaart ass comments get you no were lol hope u still have this profile to spread the word after I report it for third party infrigement

I suspect he has no idea what the word "infringement" means. "Inconceivable."

OH NO!!! What ever will you do if that account is reported? IT'S ALL OVER NOW!!

I'll go ahead and get ready to close our site down...

Jackass!

 

[The_Roadie]

Here's the goofball's thread:
B4 after pics of a new tb lol lots of pics - Chevy TrailBlazer, TrailBlazer SS and GMC Envoy Forum

Can't even post right side up pictures. Sigh.....

Three hours later, still trolling for comments:

no commens??

Two hours later:

please comment thouh anyone veiwing i want opions

What a needy noob. He's on a dead site, demanding a reaction to his build.

 

[Fire06]

Loved ready the link. Good for a laugh. Almost sad for the guy

 

[The_Roadie]

So who's on each site now?

View attachment 20308

View attachment 20309

The invitations are continuing to be effective. Keep it up!

View attachment 20310

Total abandonment of their jobs - nooberator apathy, as predicted

View attachment 20311

 

[CaptainXL]

Why am I getting an email for only this latest reply? I should have gotten multiple emails about this thread if I am subscribed.

 

[The_Roadie]

I thought emails were suppressed if you missed or ignored one about a thread and failed to visit, but I see evidence to the contrary every day, so I can't be sure, for sure. Sorry. Just visit every day and check to see we're not talking about you here. It's the only way to be sure.

 

[CaptainXL]

I thought emails were suppressed if you missed or ignored one about a thread and failed to visit, but I see evidence to the contrary every day, so I can't be sure, for sure. Sorry. Just visit every day and check to see we're not talking about you here. It's the only way to be sure.

Lol. OK.

 

[TollKeeper]

So I just got an email from a girl who owned a Isuzu Ascender that I recomeded check out the OS back in November. She got banned, and she never even made a post, or sent a IM.. and shes blaming me. Aparently she just joined a week or something ago.. WTF?

Now they are banning people on a wim?

All I got to say to those admins is..

[video=youtube_share;BNL6aoWJnsE]http://youtu.be/BNL6aoWJnsE[/video]

 

[BO TIE SS]

Total abandonment of their jobs - nooberator apathy, as predicted

...and appreciated!

 

[The_Roadie]

Oh, and just for fun, here's an overlay of GMTNation.com new member stats versus Trailvoy for the last three weeks. We're blue, they're orange.

KEEP UP THE RECRUITING! And posting technical threads that get us higher in Google!

View attachment 20383

 

[The_Roadie]

Amazing. The Admin wakes up for his monthly visit while the nooberators remain sleeping, and posts in this thread:

PM's Deleted from my inbox?? - Chevy TrailBlazer, TrailBlazer SS and GMC Envoy Forum

Fair use excerpt: Hey everyone just to get things straight there were two users that were removed recently and that was because he has been warned a multiple times to stop violating the rules. This automatically removed all their posts which were used strictly only to refer ALL to the other site and PM's as well. No other messages in your inbox should have been deleted, especially the ones unrelated to the user....

The paranoia and obsession with ad dollars and not helping the members continues. If he cared about helping HIS members, he'd get a membership here, start offering a few bucks (because $$ is all he's got to offer) and see if he could lure some competent diagnosticians back over there to answer questions with speed and accuracy. But no......he can only compete by being a bully and censoring the truth and banning sometimes innocent ones who get caught in the crossfire. Lame, very lame.

 

[The_Roadie]

The Admin continues to backpedal with revisionist theories:

There is no grudge and the difference is that some members that refer to the other site are still using and making accounts with the intent to solely remove members from this community because of the event that happened. Accounts and posts are made for this purpose only and you see that. I think it's common sense why this is not allowed.

When confronted with the observation that it's ONLY GMTN that's being censored and members banned who discuss it, he has no answer. Advertised web sites are posted all OVER the place, so it's not a simple rule of "thou shalt not MENTION any other sites and worship them before me". He might use the rationalization that only gmtnation is "competing" with his site, but that's YET ANOTHER admission that it's all about the money. How does a new member here COST HIM anything over there? Really. It's all about the post count.

There is no reason to see gmtnation.com as any sort of threat as long as VS is truly in it for the benefit of the members! We don't REMOVE members from trailvoy, we tell them the truth, which is the current location of the most active folks who can answer questions and who wrote a lot of the trailvoy archives. If the educated member chooses to join up here, THE MEMBER benefits. We certainly don't get paid extra.

VS, yet again, shows its true nature. They collect member NUMBERS but they care nothing for the individuals. Or getting their problems solved. If VS did, they would take some of their profits and pay staff to answer the questions. Like the commercial problem-solving sites. But that business model is not as short-term successful as the parasitical one they run.

 

[kardain]

^A commentary of epic proportions.

 

[Jman423]

Let him think what he wants. His efforts are futile.

 

[The_Roadie]

The more you tighten your grip Trailvoy, the more members will slip through your fingers

[video=youtube;-wntX-a3jSY]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-wntX-a3jSY[/video]