Firearms

MRRSM

Lifetime VIP Supporter
If you go back as far as the Great War of WW1 and later in WW2… “The Browning Automatic Rifle” gets the nod for a Light Machine Gun (Mr. John Browning’s Machine Rifle) with a very distinctive sound cacophony and an astonishing amount of knock-down power at great ranges using the famous Remington .30-06 Caliber Rounds.

While the Infantrymen carried the similarly chambered .30-06 (Thirty-Aught-Six) M1 Garand (courtesy a design from our Brother from the GWN... Mr. John Garand) … This BAR Fully Automatic Weapon demanded an awful lot physical strength from the Battle Ready Soldier for carrying this weapon and its very heavy ammunition all over Hell and Gone and then engaging the enemy with either “Walking Fire” and/or offering suppression fire for his Squad Members from cover.

After WW1… many of these Automatic Weapons wound up in the hands of Criminals like “Bonnie and Clyde” (Google their names for the original pics they took of each other holding these weapons and their "Loot" from their bank Robbery activities, often cutting down the barrel length(s) to wield with less weight and the problems of being generally cumbersome to handle. Here is a great video that will startle many with just exactly how much serious power and punch this weapon implies:


The VOP (Video Original Poster) mentioned the name of the man who provided him with the weapons he would be demonstrating as “Machine Gun Mike”… Back in the 1970s when I was heavily involved in hand-loading and competition shooting… One Saturday afternoon… I got invited to this Man’s house with some other Fellow LEO friends and I had the privilege of viewing his weapons collections that included American and German WW2 Vintage Machine Guns.

Then I was even more dumbfounded when he brought me into a huge concealed room with metal clad walls and a Bank Safe Entrance. There inside were literally racks and racks of German Schmeisser MP-40s, MP-42s… and an assortment of Rare Rifles and other Exotic Military Weapons. He had a Full Filing Cabinet filled with all of his Federal Firearms Licenses and Tax Paperwork for these things that at that time... ran $200.00 per weapon! I couldn’t even get my head around how much of a fortune this affable, friendly Firearms Collector must have had to invest in fill up his Amazing Armory!

He even had not one… but two German Couriers’ Broom-Handled Schmeisser Machine Pistols that had Hollow Wooden Stocks that carried the weapons inside like a Sandwich in a Kid’s Lunchbox. My God… It was like dying and going to Weapons Heaven and it was indeed… a very rare and Good Day!

This video describes the M1 Garand Semi-Automatic Rifle chambered for the Remington .30-06 Round … the later NATO .308 Round replaced it with when the M14 M1A .308 Caliber Korean abd Viet Nam War conflict era Semi-Automatic Rifle came into its own (...the one shown in the Video is NOT the M1A1 Match Grade M14 Rifle...):


This historical review on the M1 Garand is well worth the viewing, too:

 

LVJJJ

Well-Known Member
My last name is Stoner (yeah, I've heard all about it). However, in this thread, I wanted to mention that someone in my extended family created the Stoner Rifle. I don't know much about it, anybody know much? I think it became the M-16, that true?
 

MRRSM

Lifetime VIP Supporter
Your Famous Relative is Mr. Eugene Stoner...and back in the 1950's... He designed first the AR-5 (and later the AR-10 Rifle in 7.62X51MM Cartridge) for the Armalite Corporation to assist downed USAF Pilots/Airmen with a Light Weight Survival Rifle. But for a catastrophic Materials Failure during a Field Test Shoot-Off to replace the M1-Garand (8 Shot Internal Magazine) ...his weapon design at that time might have been the winner as it was the only REAL competition when up against the Box Magazine Fed Garand-style M14 with Full and Semi-Auto firing capability and a rifle that would eliminate the Heavy .30-06 round in favor of the NATO .308 Caliber (... forget the FN-FAL).

AR10.png

Later on, the US Military would adopt the Colt AR-15 (M-16) to replace the M-14; a New Weapon...but one that was based upon Gene's Original AR Design that Colt purchased the Rights to Manufacture from Armalite. The Colt M-16 sported a Lighter, Higher Velocity Round with much less recoil using the NATO 5.56MM (.223 Caliber) Round that allowed Soldiers to carry MUCH MORE Ammunition onto the battlefield. This link will prove interesting and edifying for you:

https://gundigest.com/rifles/ars-rifles/ar-10-vs-ar-15-how-stoners-rifles-stack-up
 
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LVJJJ

Well-Known Member
Thanks MRRSM. I had heard about the Stoner Rifle many many years ago at a family gathering. Then forgot all about it (I don't own any guns but I sure want to be able to buy one if I need it). So last year we were going thru the International Border back into the states (we live in Blaine Washington right on the Canadian-USA border) and the border guard said "Stoner huh? You know your family created the M16 which started as the Stoner Rifle? Which reminded me of it, so we talked for a while, now, everytime we get that guard when we go to Canada, he remembers us and we have nice discussions. I'm telling ya, its really nice having a good relationship with the border guards when crossing, some of them can be jerks. Our daughter and grandson live in Canada so we cross quite often.
 

MRRSM

Lifetime VIP Supporter
This Video features some Slow-Mo Action taken at 12,500 Frames Per Second of a Tiny, Breech Locking-Loading, Single Shot Pistol... using Pin-Fire Ball Ammunition. But even something as Small as this REAL but very diminutive Weapon can still cause harm or blindness if fired into the Human Eye and it speaks to the Chemical Power of Gun Powder in the controlled apparatus of a Center-Fire Cartridge ...STILL so very Potent and Dangerous... even though the Gun and Cartridge have been made on such a small scale:

 

HARDTRAILZ

Moderator
Had a need to up the scope on a .243 and found a Black friday deal on one of these. Should work out pretty good

1543946091595.png
 

MRRSM

Lifetime VIP Supporter
@LVJJJ ...You're NOT going to believe this, Brother.. .but while purchasing a 2" X 2" X 6" Block of Extruded 6061 Aluminum I needed for a completely different Off Topic Project... I discovered that this is the IDENTICAL flavor of Heat Treated Kaiser Aluminum that is used to manufacture the Upper & Lower Receivers of the Stoner AR-10 and the Colt AR-15 Rifles... Take a close look at the image... and observe the NAME of the Company that sells this Aluminum Block:

2"X 2" 6061 SQUARE ALUMINUM SOLID FLAT BAR 6" long +.25"/-0 T6511 New Mill Stock

ALUMINUMBLOCK2X2X6.jpg

...as verified by the 6061 Aluminum WIKI:

6061-T6 is used for:

You have GOT to admit it.... Now THIS serendipitous stuff about The Stoner Name... is Weird! :jawdrop2:
 
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Capote

Platinum Supporter
Had a need to up the scope on a .243 and found a Black friday deal on one of these. Should work out pretty good

View attachment 86698
You mounted it yet? :pictures:

Although I've been a poor man for 2 months now, I've been putting a parts list together for a future .300 blackout SBR build.
 

HARDTRAILZ

Moderator
Nope. Firearm hunting just ended n I used my 308. Now in muzzleloader season.

I got a full .300 rifle setup to build and debating on doing a pistol build with the other 300 barrel i got. Just never seem to find the time I had to play like I could before the kids.
 

Capote

Platinum Supporter
I say you might as well do a pistol build since you've got an extra barrel. The AR platform is so modular and fun to work with.
Reason for me wanting to do an SBR with a 300 is due to the gas issues when you go below about a 10.3" with .223 & 5.56. 300 Blackout was designed around a 9" barrel setup. I'm wanting this thing pretty small & compact without having to deal with issues. I've even been looking into side-folding stock systems for the AR and removable barrel systems too. They're pretty spectacular. I only recently discovered the removable barrel setups. There's like 3 IIRC?? You ever see them before?
 

HARDTRAILZ

Moderator
I have not seen the removable barrels.

I just dont want to deal with the 200 for the SBR. rather buy a can stamp for 200.
 

Capote

Platinum Supporter
I do agree that it is better to spend a $200 tax stamp for supressor, especially for home defense.
 

djthumper

Administrator
Is anyone here an NRA TC? I am going down to the TC Development Workshop at the end of March and looking for pointers. Other than practice, practice, practice for the qualification.
 

MRRSM

Lifetime VIP Supporter
Youtube is a good source of getting inside many of the Processes and Procedures as well as informing you of what your expectations SHOULD be as an NRA TC Candidate. How you will behave when you are EXPECTED to Step OUT of your Normal Role as an "Experienced Instructor" ...and then Genuinely Behave like RAW STUDENT TRAINEE will make all the difference in the outcome of the Seminar:

Your shooting skills will be the LEAST Important thing to bring along with you. I was a Certified NRA Police Firearms Instructor for 25 Years and was often called upon by police personnel who were about to lose their jobs ...because they could NOT Qualify on the Department's PPC Courses and I would be their Last Chance.

Understanding what that feels like and conveying that understanding to YOUR NRA TC Instructors will make the critical difference. This Video will lead you to other helpful videos. Please Pay Particular Attention to The Woman whenever she speaks. Her advice to You ... is PURE GOLD.


The Very Best of Luck to You, Larry
 
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HARDTRAILZ

Moderator
I got an extra AR15 platform lower and looking to buy a full kit to build another weapon. Not real picky on an specifics, not style or caliber even, other than going for low budget. Any one seen any killer deals on a full build kit lately?
 

wstuckey1

Well-Known Member
I got an extra AR15 platform lower and looking to buy a full kit to build another weapon. Not real picky on an specifics, not style or caliber even, other than going for low budget. Any one seen any killer deals on a full build kit lately?
PSA sells a "blemished" m4 kit with everything but a lower for under $300. I bought one and I can't find any blemish on it. I have that with a custom lower and I absolutely love it.
 

HARDTRAILZ

Moderator
PSA sells a "blemished" m4 kit with everything but a lower for under $300. I bought one and I can't find any blemish on it. I have that with a custom lower and I absolutely love it.
PSA, Ceratac, outdoorsportsusa have all been on the radar. Nice to hear a recommendation.
 

wstuckey1

Well-Known Member
PSA, Ceratac, outdoorsportsusa have all been on the radar. Nice to hear a recommendation.
My brother has a PSA m16 and I have an m4. We both love the rifles and haven't had any problems with either.
Here's the link to that kit, needs a lower and a sight. I went with the Magpul MBUS on mine. It occasionally drops down to $290 but its at $300 right now.
 

djthumper

Administrator
Check out Short Round Supply. I have bought a couple of uppers from PSA.

 

wstuckey1

Well-Known Member
My PSA M4
 

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HARDTRAILZ

Moderator
I got everything but the lower from DTT in 350 Legend which shipped out today. Under 300 delivered puts it right in the budget AR realm other than I do need a different mag for the odd caliber. For extra $20 I can grab one and have a rifle for those straight wall states if needed. Plus I can slap in my spare 300 blk barrel if I dont like it. I usually do not do the new or wildcat rounds much, but this one has me curious. Will see how the quality is when it arrives. It says tomorrow by 8 but it is Fedex so prolly by end of next week it will actually arrive
 

Beacon

Well-Known Member
Which states are straight wall? I never heard of this as a regulation before.
Edit. Never mind, I googled it.
 
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HARDTRAILZ

Moderator
Anyone fluent on current rules of using a stripped lower to build a pistol? I got one awhile back that I do not know what it would have been registered as when bought. I did not think it matter until assembled, but keep reading all kinds of stuff. I would not think when purchased they could label it rifle or pistol, but it would be other if stripped. Wanting a pistol and second guessing if I need to buy another lower to be certain. I figure if I take the stripped lower n document building it a pistol I should be fine, but not worth hassle if its better to just buy fresh.

Anyone got any legitimate insight?
 

Hatchet

Well-Known Member
The stripped lower should have been marked as other on the ATF form, which means it can be built into either. Build it as a pistol first, you can convert to rifle and back to pistol as you wish. IF you build it as a rifle first, its a rifle forever.

Some dealers have been known to mark it differently, so if you don't know for a fact if it was marked as "other", i would probably go a safe route and get a new one that you know for sure is done right and build that as a rifle to be safe. That's my 2 cents and worth every cent of that.
 

HARDTRAILZ

Moderator
I called and the girl that answered in the firearm area said they mark them as "receiver". I think I will call back another time and see if they have a clue.
 

djthumper

Administrator
As long as the upper received and lower receiver match for what you are going for you are safe. If the lower receiver is initially built as a rifle, it must be reconfigured for a pistol before it is attached to an upper that has a barrel shorter than 16". A bunch of us just recently got into this discussion. Thee FFL should only be selling it to you as receiver: other.
 

HARDTRAILZ

Moderator
It will never be a rifle build. It will have a two uppers. One 10.5 and one 16. No buttstock will ever be attaches,
 

MRRSM

Lifetime VIP Supporter
If you have your own land with enough of a Safe Dirt Mound Back Stop for a Personal Shooter's Target Range... This Simple Welding Project might come in handy for making some Home Made Portable, Adjustable Target Stands that can be also Staked into the Ground for Hard Metal Targets or hold Thin Wood Framed Targets as well:

 

HARDTRAILZ

Moderator
We use old swing sets and chains to hang steel
 

Redbeard

Well-Known Member
I have a question. I saw an ad at the bottom of the website showing a double barrel 12 gauge pistol ( I believe they are selling holsters), but I was wondering if a double barrel 12 gauge would be legal. I know I have seen the 410 deringer pistols since I was a boy yet never thought of it like a "sawed off shotgun". I think my state it is illegal to have a "saw off shotgun" and that pistol barrel looks even shorter. I am not looking to purchase anything like this, but just wondering.
 

northcreek

Well-Known Member
I believe that the shotgun pistols follow the same rules as any pistol in a given State. The sawed off shotgun ban pertains to a long gun being altered to a "shorty". At least that's my understanding.
BTW I did fire one of those 12 ga pistols once and it wasn't fun.
 

MRRSM

Lifetime VIP Supporter
Down here where we are in the State of Florida... The limitation is 18" for the Barrel Length and 26" for the Overall Length of any such Modified Weapons, regardless of BBL Gauge:


The other issue with not making it much shorter has to do with the burning chemistry of either Ball or Double-Base Nitro-Cellulose Gun Powders. If the barrel length is cut off much shorter... half or more of the burning powder will exit the bore before effectively combusting efficiently enough to convey the most force possible to move the projectiles, Unless that is, whatever being shot is fired at within point-blank range.

That leaves you with a huge atmospheric Orange Ball of Flame coming out of 'The Business End'. The local coroner was famous for her observations of being able to accurately guess how far away assailants were standing from their victims, just by how much unburned gun powder was left over; either inside of the victim's body as soggy, unburned flakes or if it continued to "cook" or set the victims clothing on fire after death.
 
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Mounce

Well-Known Member
BTW I did fire one of those 12 ga pistols once and it wasn't fun
Have also shot one, differing opinion tho as I had a blast lol. All the guys were blown away when I was shooting skeets with it somehow :weird:
 

djthumper

Administrator
Down here where we are in the State of Florida... The limitation is 18" for the Barrel Length and 26" for the Overall Length of any such Modified Weapons, regardless of BBL Gauge:


The other issue with not making it much shorter has to do with the burning chemistry of either Ball or Double-Base Nitro-Cellulose Gun Powders. If the barrel length is cut off much shorter... half or more of the burning powder will exit the bore before effectively combusting efficiently enough to convey the most force possible to move the projectiles, Unless that is, whatever being shot is fired at within point-blank range.

That leaves you with a huge atmospheric Orange Ball of Flame coming out of 'The Business End'. The local coroner was famous for her observations of being able to accurately guess how far away assailants were standing from their victims, just by how much unburned gun powder was left over; either inside of the victim's body as soggy, unburned flakes or if it continued to "cook" or set the victims clothing on fire after death.
That follows the federal law and is only applicable to requirements of a long gun.

I have seen a couple of the shotgun pistols that you have talked about. The trend is that they are working to match the size of larger pistols so that it is more manageable. Like being able to shoot a .410, or even the newer half-size shot shells that are out.
 

Chickenhawk

Well-Known Member
Horses for courses. A Ferrari can go off road, but not very well. A DOHC straight six Trailblazer can handle a road race track quite well - surprisingly well - (I have done it many times, with some simple mods for better handling balance) but it can't keep up with a Ferrari.

Pistols for short range.
12-gauge shotguns for bears.

A pistol-length shotgun - at least to us up here in Canada; the land of tough-talkin' and common-sense (and the men are even more tough-talking) - is like a singing frog. It might be able to sing but unless it can hit all the high notes and stay on tune, it's kinda useless.

But, in all seriousness, the ideal combination of barrel length for proper burning of the gunpowder plus compactness of the shotgun, is still 14-inches. Loaded with slugs, it will stop any animal on earth. Especially important in polar bear country where bears grow to 1400 pounds; run 40 miles per hour at a casual trot and eat batteries out of boats and seats off of snowmobiles for snacks.

My t-shirt says on it: "What doesn't kill you, makes you stronger. Except bears. Bears will kill you." When I teach shotgun handling up north, no one laughs at my t-shirt.

The fun part is that most shotguns up here in Canada can have barrels as short as 9 inches, as long as the overall length is 26 inches or more. But the reality is that no one shoots a 9-inch barrel shotgun for anything other than fun. The ones I trust my life to are 14-inch barrel 870s and 590A1s. (I sometimes send photos of my 14-inch barrel shotguns to my U.S. friends to make them jealous.)

Interesting story. Mossberg had a batch of 2000 590A1 shotguns with 14-inch barrels that they made for the DEA, but the agency cancelled the contract and bought more carbines instead. The Mossberg distributor in Canada said, hell send em up here. Legal in Canada and we can sell them all in a month.

They were gone in a week.

They are now a regular production model for Canada.

Not saying nyeah nyeah nyeah, but ... yeah, I am.
 

Redbeard

Well-Known Member
I believe that the shotgun pistols follow the same rules as any pistol in a given State. The sawed off shotgun ban pertains to a long gun being altered to a "shorty". At least that's my understanding.
BTW I did fire one of those 12 ga pistols once and it wasn't fun.
I can relate :smile:
First time I fired mine I thought I was ready for it. I wasn't :sadcry: I've owned this pistol grip Mossberg 500 for thirty two or three years now, but it makes for a nice peace maker.
1609110832396.png
 

Ilikemy3s

Silver Supporter
Finding any decent and reasonably priced shotgun here in and around jersey is impossible. Right now for home defense I have a S&W MP 380 Ez At least my wife and daughters can rack it. Wife wants a Revolver now.
 

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