Firearms

Chickenhawk

Hobbyist
Dec 6, 2011
731
How many safety rules can three people break at any one time?
- The person responsible for the safety of all cast and crew grabbed a gun off a table without checking it.
- An actor took his word that it was unloaded. It wasn't.
- Most serious, the armorer who's job it was to keep everyone safe around the firearms, actually BROUGHT A LOADED GUN TO SET, in direct violation of every single firearms safety rule in the film industry.

This was not a "tragic accident with blanks" like the producer/actor would like us to believe. This was a gun loaded with live ammunition on a film set.
Sad.
https://www.usnews.com/news/us/articles/2021-10-22/explainer-guns-on-movie-sets-how-does-that-work
 

TollKeeper

Guru
Dec 3, 2011
6,886
Brighton, CO
How many safety rules can three people break at any one time?
- The person responsible for the safety of all cast and crew grabbed a gun off a table without checking it.
- An actor took his word that it was unloaded. It wasn't.
- Most serious, the armorer who's job it was to keep everyone safe around the firearms, actually BROUGHT A LOADED GUN TO SET, in direct violation of every single firearms safety rule in the film industry.

This was not a "tragic accident with blanks" like the producer/actor would like us to believe. This was a gun loaded with live ammunition on a film set.
Sad.
https://www.usnews.com/news/us/articles/2021-10-22/explainer-guns-on-movie-sets-how-does-that-work
Brandon Lee died the same way on the set of the The Crow.
 

Mooseman

Master Blaster
Moderator
Dec 4, 2011
22,548
Ottawa, ON
Shades of Brandon Lee. Devastating for all involved. I was also shocked that in this day and age that something like this could happen ever again. The inexperience of the armorer was also exposed as well as the crew's safety concerns hours prior to the incident. Might go all the way to the film's management who put safety behind everything else and hired an inexperienced armorer.
 

northcreek

Guru
Jan 15, 2012
2,933
WNY
Some of this is on Baldwin too, I mean wouldn't you just tilt her up and glance to see if any lead was showing ? (the news shows this being a revolver ).
Even with blanks they generally shoot off target because unburned powder and stuff can smart.
 

Mooseman

Master Blaster
Moderator
Dec 4, 2011
22,548
Ottawa, ON
I remember this actor who accidentally shot himself with a blank.


And in recent years, I've noticed that even the use of blanks has been reduced where they use CGI for the muzzle flash. You can tell when the recoil is not there or faked.

I can see the rules surrounding the on-set use of real guns even more strictly controlled and reduced.
 

Chickenhawk

Hobbyist
Dec 6, 2011
731
The difference between what happened with Brandon Lee and what happened with Halyna Hutchins was that with Brandon Lee, the production was at fault for sending the firearms expert home early because there was only one more gunshot to go, and the props assistant could handle it for the final two weeks of shooting. But it was more a cumulative chain of errors, and no one knew better.

For example, they made dummy cartridges for a close-up shot by dumping out the powder and crimping the bullet back into an empty case. Because the expert was gone, no one told them the primer still has enough energy to push a bullet an inch or two into the barrel. Someone pulled the trigger thinking they were harmless, and didn't notice that faint 'click' of what all of us know in the firearms business is a primer pop. One week later, they loaded it with a blank but there was no one there to CHECK THE BARREL, and no one there to tell the actor Michael Massee to aim slightly to the side. The production was negligent by sending the expert home early, but it was a long chain of errors. If they had learned the PROVE procedure, he would still be alive today.

PROVE saves lives.

In the situation of the "Rust" shooting, they knew full well what they were doing and they deliberately broke all the rules and procedures in place that would have saved her life.

The armorer brought live ammunition to set because she loved to show off her quick-draw prowess to the crew. She was also extremely inexperienced. Live ammunition is NEVER allowed on a film set, plus there are hundreds of safety checks and safety steps done every done on every gun to make sure this never happens. They skipped all those.

The First AD grabbed a gun off the table - which is not his job, and is NEVER done on a film set - and handed it to the actor without checking. He told the actor it was a "cold" gun, meaning empty of all blanks.

The actor Alec Baldwin was lining up a shot toward the camera in a rehearsal. For some reason he pulled the trigger thinking it was empty. He probably cocked the hammer to rehearse his draw from the holster and thinking it was empty, pulled the trigger.

While the actor was not directly at fault here, it should be noted that as a producer, HE (along with the other producers) made the decision to hire someone inexperienced and cheap. HE was the one who hadn't paid his crew in 7 weeks. HE was the one who refused accommodation, and when they insisted, HE was the one who put them up in some dirty hooker motel and forced them to sleep in their cars instead. HE was the one who refused to respond to complaint after complaint after complaint about abusive hours and unsafe gun handling practices on set.

The morning of the incident, his entire union camera crew walked off the job, citing hours and safety. HE was the one who replaced them with local non-union hires and local film students.

The big difference here is that three people were deliberately, grossly (and probably criminally) negligent. They KNEW better, and they still violated every safety rule about firearms in film and firearms handling in general.

A sobering lesson for us all, especially those of us who use firearms.

Again, the PROVE procedure would have saved her life.
 
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Mooseman

Master Blaster
Moderator
Dec 4, 2011
22,548
Ottawa, ON
However, in both cases, it was decisions at the top that started the chains of events that lead to their deaths. Heads will likely roll in this instance even if it is a big name actor/producer.
 

Chickenhawk

Hobbyist
Dec 6, 2011
731
Productions that don't want to pay the cost of hiring a professional, are going to be SHOCKED at the cost of hiring an amateur.

In this case, jail time and $millions.

I always say that amateurs practice until they get it right. Professionals practice until they can't get it wrong.

If people don't understand what that means, I explain it this way. "If you were a skydiver, would you want your parachute packed by the amateur who finally got it right after ten tries, or the professional who hasn't got it wrong in 30 years?"
 

Mooseman

Master Blaster
Moderator
Dec 4, 2011
22,548
Ottawa, ON
Just heard on the news that cops have seized over 500 blank, dummy and LIVE rounds. Again, the question is, what are LIVE rounds doing anywhere near a movie set?
 

Chickenhawk

Hobbyist
Dec 6, 2011
731
Just heard on the news that cops have seized over 500 blank, dummy and LIVE rounds. Again, the question is, what are LIVE rounds doing anywhere near a movie set?
The crew was target shooting in the desert that morning. The armorer is also a cowboy action shooter who competes in fast-draw contests so my guess is she likes to show off a lot.

She forgot to unload her gun; the 1st AD grabbed it off the table because he was in a hurry and told Baldwin it was a "cold" gun, meaning empty of all blanks. Baldwin didn't check it himself when he practiced his draw and fired the shot towards the camera where Halyna and the director were setting up the shot in the camera during a rehearsal.

The FBI will likely reveal by tomorrow that the projectile was a lead .38-calibre bullet of .357 inches in diameter, or (more likely) a .45-calibre bullet of .451 inches in diameter, and fired from a Colt revolver chambered for .45 Colt ammunition.

Three people did a bunch of things grossly and criminally negligent, and they (plus a lot of other "links" in a long and sad chain of circumstances) and the industry reels. People forget the hundreds of thousands of films that have been made safely with firearms for decades because of strict safety protocols.

Banning real guns will only serve to achieve the opposite effect. The industry needs trained professionals handling firearms or anything that even looks like a firearm. If they ban guns, producers can now hire the cheapest, lowest-paid and least experienced props assistant to legally handle the fake firearms, with no licences, training or skills whatsoever. They won't even know how to open the action to check for BBs or pellets and I bet they don't even know to notify police about the fake firearms or even how to train the actors in how to hold them.

Anyone who thinks some producers won't try to save money by hiring the lowest paid people they can, they should read these articles again. 16 hour days; accommodation in a flea-bag hooker motel; no paycheque for seven weeks; numerous gun safety violations; there is a good reason why the entire union camera crew walked off the set that morning. Sad situation.
 

Mooseman

Master Blaster
Moderator
Dec 4, 2011
22,548
Ottawa, ON
It's already happening. The set of "The Rookie" has already switched to fake guns and the actors are already saying they're feeling safer for it. The quality of the action scenes may suffer though. I used to see it on "The Walking Dead" with the fake recoils and muzzle flash. Used to irritate me seeing it but it is a safer way of doing it.
 
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Chickenhawk

Hobbyist
Dec 6, 2011
731
It's already happening. The set of "The Rookie" has already switched to fake guns and the actors are already saying they're feeling safer for it. The quality of the action scenes may suffer though. I used to see it on "The Walking Dead" with the fake recoils and muzzle flash. Used to irritate me seeing it but it is a safer way of doing it.
It irritates me too, especially when there is no one there to tell the actor not to take the plastic replica and 'toss' it in the air in some misplaced idea of what recoil should look like. I am not sure I would label it "safer" however, when hundreds of thousands of movies have been made safely with firearms since their first appearance on a film in 1903. Maybe, hire the right people, make sure they are following deeply-ingrained industry safety practices and don't hire one person to do two separate jobs on a film set just to save a few dollars.

This was a guy I know on this little local television station saying exactly that.
Dave and anchor on CNN.jpg
 
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Redbeard

Guru
Jan 26, 2013
3,117
SAS use new machine gun called 'Snake' that fires two bullets at the same time https://dailystar.co.uk/news/latest-news/sas-new-machine-gun-called-25673138

The Star reported that the gun can even fire when one side jams.

“The great thing about the weapon is that if one side of it jams the other will still fire -- and every time you pull the trigger you are hitting the target with a double burst,” the source said.

Lasers can be added to the rifle, allowing it to have precision at 800 meters.

1640699315208.png
1640699230006.png
 

Mooseman

Master Blaster
Moderator
Dec 4, 2011
22,548
Ottawa, ON
That thing looks like something from a time traveling sci-fi movie. However, I wonder what the weight is like. You've got double everything and if you have to hold this thing all day, might make for some tired arms.
 

Chickenhawk

Hobbyist
Dec 6, 2011
731
Perfect for Stormtroopers. They can miss twice as fast!

LOL.

True story:
"How many rounds do you carry in your bear defense shotgun?"
"Four."
"Only FOUR? Why?"
"So I can bring the extra three in the magazine back to camp."
"But what if you miss with all four?"
"Then I deserve to get eaten."

My mentor was Rob Leatham. He would look at my sorry old compensated 1911 with very few gadgets, old-school 8-round mags and plain square black Novak sights, and tell me, "Dave, don't fear the person who shows up at a match with four fancy race guns. Fear the person with ONE gun and all the bluing worn off from constant draws from the holster."

I have always taken that to heart.
 

northcreek

Guru
Jan 15, 2012
2,933
WNY
If Remington's "Man Card" ad was irresponsible what about the Dodge commercial showing pre-pubic boys driving 700 hp cars like drunken sailors.
What a can of worms the lawyers have opened.... :deal:
 

Mooseman

Master Blaster
Moderator
Dec 4, 2011
22,548
Ottawa, ON
Hey, it all started with someone suing McDonald's for burning themselves with hot coffee.
 

northcreek

Guru
Jan 15, 2012
2,933
WNY
Realized that I was not in compliance with the "NY Safe Act" and my 15 round M1 Carbine magazines could get me a hefty fine. Many other states have this too, which says that you can possess 10 round magazines but, can only load 7 rounds max unless on a range....I know, stupid.
Didn't feel like paying $50ea for a GI issue mags. So I altered mine and they function perfectly.
Before these acts nobody wanted the 10s and preferred the 15s, now the 10s are like gold.
100_1821.JPG
 
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