Should the United States have better gun control ???

[BO TIE SS]

So walking down the street is reasonable suspicion? really?

I'm sorry. I must have missed the post describing a situation where people were stopped and frisked for doing nothing more than walking down the street. I also didn't realize that the earlier comment was directed specifically at NYC.

Man there are a lot of Sheeple in this nation.

Certainly that description is not aimed at me. (assuming it was since it followed my quote)


It sounds like what we're saying here is that the police should take a reactive approach towards law enforcement instead of proactive.

 

[TollKeeper]

No, what I am saying, and most people in this thread is, for our law enforcement, and our government officials to support and defend the oath in which the swore to upon getting into office. You know, the constitution, and the bill of rights. I am also asking them to enforce the laws that are already in place, and quit with the double talk, and the double standards, as well as bait and switch.

Arguing about a Comma in the second amendment is ludicrous at best.

[video=youtube_share;MATTUiz2TKc]http://youtu.be/MATTUiz2TKc[/video]

Or argueing about how stricter gun laws would do anything.

[video=youtube_share;joBMq6b4MmE]http://youtu.be/joBMq6b4MmE[/video]

I am by no means a republican, or democrat. I am, however, a realist, and live in this reality, while most that support Diane Feinstein, and others like her, don't.

Yes the sheeple comment was directed at most of the US.

 

[Fire06]

Tollkeeper that is to much like common sense and that thinking must be stopped.

 

[BO TIE SS]

No, what I am saying, and most people in this thread is, for our law enforcement, and our government officials to support and defend the oath in which the swore to upon getting into office. You know, the constitution, and the bill of rights. I am also asking them to enforce the laws that are already in place, and quit with the double talk, and the double standards, as well as bait and switch.

Most people in this thread have not said anything about stop and frisk.
You posted "First, Stop and Frisk has done nothing but promote racism, period, end all further discussions." That's a very strong statement to make without backing it up with something.
Then, Mikekey posted "BAM! Not to mention it's a clear volition of the US constitution and protections from on reasonable searches."

Both of you condemn a tactic used by law enforcement to enforce current existing laws. Neither, however, are providing any solutions.

Yes the sheeple comment was directed at most of the US.

Since you neither know me nor anything about me, I would suggest that you are not in any way qualified to make such an assessment of me. I would also suggest that you leave name calling (or colorful adjectives) out of your posts. Those things tend to start the conflicts which lead to the closing of threads.

 

[TollKeeper]

Most people in this thread have not said anything about stop and frisk.
You posted "First, Stop and Frisk has done nothing but promote racism, period, end all further discussions." That's a very strong statement to make without backing it up with something.
Then, Mikekey posted "BAM! Not to mention it's a clear volition of the US constitution and protections from on reasonable searches."

Most in this thread have not said anything about stop and frisk, correct. But it was made. I never backed up the statement, because blazinlow89 did with the following.

NYPD Stop And Frisks: 15 Shocking Facts About A Controversial Program

3, 5 & 7

I'm sorry. I must have missed the post describing a situation where people were stopped and frisked for doing nothing more than walking down the street. I also didn't realize that the earlier comment was directed specifically at NYC.

As far as I know, Stop and Frisk is only legal in New York. At least the version we, or at least I, was talking about. Stop and frisk has been made so lax that all a NYC cop has to do is stop anyone he feels fits the description of, well who knows. No laws were broken by the civilian, just by the law enforcement officer, in any state, other than New York.

Both of you condemn a tactic used by law enforcement to enforce current existing laws. Neither, however, are providing any solutions.

The solution, well, rather simple. Stop performing illegal search and seizures. Stop performing pratices that are a clear violation of "Liberty". Those actions are the same actions used by Adolf Hitler. And that turned into a near Genocide of the Jewish people. And for me that's saying a lot. I hate history, but there is an old adage that goes, "those that don't know their history, are doomed to repeat it."

Since you neither know me nor anything about me, I would suggest that you are not in any way qualified to make such an assessment of me. I would also suggest that you leave name calling (or colorful adjectives) out of your posts. Those things tend to start the conflicts which lead to the closing of threads.

The name calling, or simple reference to people going with the heard, instead of independent thinking, was not aimed at you, but at the general populous of the USA. I did not know you were most of the USA. I am sorry you feel it was directed at you. Also, I stated that there are a lot of sheeple in this nation, and, well frankly, there are. A Benjamin Franklin paraphrase, Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both. While most of this nation goes with the heard of sacrificing what our military has gone to war, and died for, to defend, those here at home are oblivious to the fact that they trample on their names, the heritage, and the meaning of what it is, or was, to be free. This was once a free nation.

Tollkeeper that is to much like common sense and that thinking must be stopped.

Tell me about it man.. Every day we get closer to, if we already aren't there, to communism.

 

[blazinlow89]

I get the impression that the stop and frisk, and resulting removal of handguns in the NYC area has directly reduced the rate of firearm deaths.

I'd be interested in seeing facts to support that claim.


"...in which the Supreme Court of the United States held that police may briefly detain a person who they reasonably suspect is involved in criminal activity"
Terry stop - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
So if the police have reasonable suspicion to believe that a person is involved in criminal activity, it violates their Constitutional rights to be stopped?

Most in this thread have not said anything about stop and frisk, correct. But it was made. I never backed up the statement, because blazinlow89 did with the following.





As far as I know, Stop and Frisk is only legal in New York. At least the version we, or at least I, was talking about. Stop and frisk has been made so lax that all a NYC cop has to do is stop anyone he feels fits the description of, well who knows. No laws were broken by the civilian, just by the law enforcement officer, in any state, other than New York.

I only posted anything stop and frisk because of meerschm's post saying that it works. Like most regulation laws that violate rights I assume it does very little to stop large amounts of crime, while giving police the ability to use our personal traits as a means of being "suspicious". Bow Tie asked about to see something about stop and frisk promoting racism, so I added the link with the specific numbers that had things about racism.

I only posted the link as I find laws like that give the government more control. I do not like the idea of a NannY state and Bloomberg seems to love enacting rules that would make life miserable, then again some people might like having every aspect of their lives monitored and controlled.

 

[BO TIE SS]

I never backed up the statement, because blazinlow89 did with the following.

Frankly, I don't believe that the *so called* news article proves anything. As it was stated before...if the high crime areas being targeted contain mostly minorities, then that's who is mostly going to be stopped.

As far as I know, Stop and Frisk is only legal in New York. At least the version we, or at least I, was talking about. Stop and frisk has been made so lax that all a NYC cop has to do is stop anyone he feels fits the description of, well who knows. No laws were broken by the civilian, just by the law enforcement officer, in any state, other than New York.

The Terry case comes from Ohio. It includes the ability of law enforcement to pat down for weapons if they have a reasonable and articulable suspicion that the person detained may be “armed and dangerous”.

The solution, well, rather simple. Stop performing illegal search and seizures. Stop performing pratices that are a clear violation of "Liberty".

Apparently your opinion differs from that of the United States Supreme Court.

And what I meant by "solution" is...
How do you suggest that police officers proactively combat street crime without using tactics that you consider to be a violation of your civil liberties?

The name calling, or simple reference to people going with the heard, instead of independent thinking, was not aimed at you, but at the general populous of the USA. I did not know you were most of the USA.

I think it's easy to see why I might think you were referring to me.
1) Immediately after responding to my quote, you posted "Man there are a lot of Sheeple in this nation."
2) After I said, "Certainly that description is not aimed at me. (assuming it was since it followed my quote)"
You said "Yes the sheeple comment was directed at most of the US."
If your response was not directed at me, it should have been "No, the sheeple comment was directed at most of the US."

 

[BoldAdventure]

I love lamp.

 

[TollKeeper]

Well, I apologize for my incorrect use of vocabulary, it was not my intention..

I can only cite news articles, such as the one provided by Blazinlow, to refute that the stop and frisk is generally geared at blacks/Hispanics (aka minority's (I hate that word, I am an American, not a Caucasian-American, or Italian-American, just American. I don't see skin color, I see people)).

The supreme court is also flawed, on so many different levels, but since they are the final say so, not much I can do, or say, about that. Also, I cant suggest anything more than enforcing the laws that are already on the books, which don't violate my civil rights/liberty's, except to add that the courts need to stop the revolving door that is, and has been, going on in the courts, forever. Stricter punishment is also a deterrent for the truly heinous crimes, and eye for an eye.

What exactly is "reasonable and articulable suspicion", and who decides that on the streets? A cop that likes to abuse his authority? A sheriff with a chip on his shoulder? A state patrol man that doesn't like that the black man in the Benz in front of him has rims that are worth more than he makes in 3 years? First there has to be a check list of met criteria that ever person, wearing a badge, has to make sure is met before that stop and frisk is used. And I still don't agree with it then. If I have a CCW, which I do, why is it a crime in NYC, or Ohio (that was a new one on me), for me to carry a pistol. I still have my police issue, although I never use it. Why is it illegal for me to carry something, that every New York cop is issued, but not for the everyday Joe that wants to protect himself, and his family?

The second amendment, as I mentioned earlier in this thread, is so that the people are equal to, and are actually suppose to be higher than, the government that is enforcing laws upon its people. If that means that the average Joe (that has entirely to much money), wants to buy a tank, that's his right. Although, last I checked, tanks are 1mil (or there about), and most people with that much money to throw away have chauffer's.. I just cant picture that in my head.

Not much more to add other than what has already been stated. This nation is turning into a Hitler like, communist society. And what scares me, people are letting it happen, and welcoming it.

 

[BO TIE SS]

...the courts need to stop the revolving door that is, and has been, going on in the courts, forever. Stricter punishment is also a deterrent for the truly heinous crimes, and eye for an eye.

That's one area where we absolutely agree.

...who decides that on the streets? A cop that likes to abuse his authority? A sheriff with a chip on his shoulder? A state patrol man that doesn't like that the black man in the Benz in front of him has rims that are worth more than he makes in 3 years?

Sure, there are some bad cops out there. But don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. Stop and frisk is a good tool when used properly.

If I have a CCW, which I do, why is it a crime in NYC, or Ohio (that was a new one on me), for me to carry a pistol. I still have my police issue, although I never use it. Why is it illegal for me to carry something, that every New York cop is issued, but not for the everyday Joe that wants to protect himself, and his family?

Ohio is a CCW state. Some states recognize other states' permits. I don't know if your permit would be honored here or not. I also have no idea why some states have CCW and some don't. But that really has nothing to do with stop and frisk.

 

[HARDTRAILZ]

Ohio is a CCW state. Some states recognize other states' permits. I don't know if your permit would be honored here or not. I also have no idea why some states have CCW and some don't. But that really has nothing to do with stop and frisk.

Ohio only recognizes other states which require a class for the Carry Permit. Indiana Personal Protection(carry) permit is not recognized by OH since we are not required to take a class to get one. IN does recognize OH permits though. To allow me carry in OH, I had to take an approved gun class and get an out-of-state FL license since OH will recognize the FL license.

Some states only allow open carry, some only allow concealed, and some like IN only require responsible carry as you see fit. I for one am glad it is not a federal thing and states have the right to decide what is appropriate for its citizens.

 

[v7guy]

It's been said before, but this stop and frisk stuff is only applicable to NYC, it wouldn't fly anywhere else except maybe in Chicago, if cops in Alabama started stopping people and patting them down cause they were in a bad area the shit would hit the fan. As much as I dislike NY virtually every county in the state has passed, or in the process of passing resolutions saying they will not enforce the SAFEact. Almost the entire state feels the way most of us here do, NYC and the densely populated area around it is the problem. Can we fix NYC when people are saying you should bug out, leave the state, and call it even?

[video=youtube;2s1MspmfEwg]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2s1MspmfEwg[/video]

 

[Hatchet]

It's been said before, but this stop and frisk stuff is only applicable to NYC, it wouldn't fly anywhere else except maybe in Chicago, if cops in Alabama started stopping people and patting them down cause they were in a bad area the shit would hit the fan. As much as I dislike NY virtually every county in the state has passed, or in the process of passing resolutions saying they will not enforce the SAFEact. Almost the entire state feels the way most of us here do, NYC and the densely populated area around it is the problem. Can we fix NYC when people are saying you should bug out, leave the state, and call it even?

It does happen in Chicago. I have seen it. Not to often but cop stops car in middle of road gets out and goes up to some kid. I almost rear ended a cop before because he slammed on his brakes and parked in the traffic lane to go search some kid.

 

[BO TIE SS]

Ohio only recognizes other states which require a class for the Carry Permit. Indiana Personal Protection(carry) permit is not recognized by OH since we are not required to take a class to get one. IN does recognize OH permits though. To allow me carry in OH, I had to take an approved gun class and get an out-of-state FL license since OH will recognize the FL license.

Thanks for clarifying that Kyle.

It's been said before, but this stop and frisk stuff is only applicable to NYC

No, "stop and frisk" is part of the Terry v. Ohio case. Being a Supreme court decision means that it can be legally practiced anywhere in the United States.

 

[v7guy]

Thanks for clarifying that Kyle.


No, "stop and frisk" is part of the Terry v. Ohio case. Being a Supreme court decision means that it can be legally practiced anywhere in the United States.

yes, you're correct, but the common interpretation of it is that it justifies an officer to detain and frisk you for their safety if they have the reasonable blah blah blah, officer safety, blah blah blah.
NYC has used it as permission to stop anyone and everyone. They're suspect by being in a neighborhood. There's just a tiny itty bitty smidge of a difference there. That's also why it's currently the focus of a lawsuit and is getting a tremendous amount of attention, it's complete with testimonies of quotas and focusing on black males 14-21etc. getting brought up now.

I still maintain that if practiced as it is in NYC anywhere else, the public would be outraged. It wouldn't have gone on for years and years.

I thought this was already covered, why are we still discussing it?

 

[BO TIE SS]

NYC has used it as permission to stop anyone and everyone. They're suspect by being in a neighborhood. There's just a tiny itty bitty smidge of a difference there.

Sure. I thought you were saying that NYC was the only place using stop and frisk. I see now that you're saying that NYC is abusing stop and frisk.

I thought this was already covered, why are we still discussing it?

To clear up the confusion, I suppose.

But, the whole stop and frisk issue has completely strayed from the topic of this thread so it should be put to rest.

 

[fishsticks]

But, the whole stop and frisk issue has completely strayed from the topic of this thread so it should be put to rest.

FWIW, I think NYC's abuse of stop and frisk illustrates a broader concern that relates to the gun control issue: Unwarranted search and seizure.

Here in WA state, we recently shot down a bill that would have provided for mandatory warrantless home searches by police to "ensure assault weapons were properly stored."

There are people out there who actually think this kind of thing is a good idea, and that is terrifying.

 

[Short Bus]

Go back to NY Bloomberg, WE DON'T WANT YOU HERE!!!!

Bloomberg's Pro-Gun Control Advertisement Running In Columbus Spurs Debate | WBNS-10TV Columbus, Ohio

 

[Sparky]

The Obama administration said Monday that the President does not support a national gun registry.

That surprises me a little bit. Or he just says he doesn't because he knows he'd be even less popular otherwise.

 

[blazinlow89]

Go back to NY Bloomberg, WE DON'T WANT YOU HERE!!!!

Bloomberg's Pro-Gun Control Advertisement Running In Columbus Spurs Debate | WBNS-10TV Columbus, Ohio

Bloomberg has proposed some stuff that is just scary, but what scares me even more is people elect this hypocrite. He is worse than All gore, but that's another subject.

Now I have not seen the story yet about the father who had a visit from child welfare services and the police, after posting a picture of his son holding a gun on Facebook.

http://cbsnews.com/storysynopsis.rb...r-in-n.j/&feed_id=1&videoid=37&catid=57575321

Not sure about others, but my uncle had taken me hunting at the age of 7. Got target practice etc. By 12 I had my own rifle, it was a little .22 bolt action, I had learned how to clean it, use it safely and understand the dangers of using it.

 

[Short Bus]

That surprises me a little bit. Or he just says he doesn't because he knows he'd be even less popular otherwise.

Remember he said he wasn't coming for our guns at election time.

Bloomberg has proposed some stuff that is just scary, but what scares me even more is people elect this hypocrite. He is worse than All gore, but that's another subject.

Now I have not seen the story yet about the father who had a visit from child welfare services and the police, after posting a picture of his son holding a gun on Facebook.

http://cbsnews.com/storysynopsis.rb...r-in-n.j/&feed_id=1&videoid=37&catid=57575321

Not sure about others, but my uncle had taken me hunting at the age of 7. Got target practice etc. By 12 I had my own rifle, it was a little .22 bolt action, I had learned how to clean it, use it safely and understand the dangers of using it.

I started shooting at 7-8 and was hunting at 9. Gun safety training started MUCH younger!!! When I was young, guns was kept in cabinets that displayed them, not safes.

 

[blazinlow89]

That surprises me a little bit. Or he just says he doesn't because he knows he'd be even less popular otherwise.

I also think the dems have forgotten the assault weapons ban for now, and are trying to remove certain things from the "new gun control bill". For 2 reasons, one they have an easier chance of passing the bill with fewer requirements, and they can add on amendments to the bill later easier than passing a large group of laws. Second it was suicide for 2014 election cycle. I think the damage may be done, but the GOP is not doing them selves any favors.

 

[RayVoy]

That surprises me a little bit. Or he just says he doesn't because he knows he'd be even less popular otherwise.

We had a very contentious gun registry in Canada. The feds required the registration of ALL guns. It was only popular with the Police Chief's Association. All it accomplished was to turn some law abiding citizens (who did not wish to register) into criminals.

The Police Chiefs said it was a good tool; before dispatching on a domestic call, the registry was checked to see if there was a weapon at the premises. Then the officers could approach with due care and caution. I asked a RCMP officer friend what they did if the registry did not show any weapons at the address, he said, we approach as if there were weapons.

The registry was closed and the records deleted last fall.

We still have a registry, a registry for automatic weapons, pistols and revolvers; but, registration for sport and hunting long guns no longer exists.

 

[Playsinsnow]

Someone tell me how many more people die a year from alcohol related car accidents?
Guns cause crime like flies cause garbage.
Register your matches to prevent forest fires! Talking to you SoCal- register cigarette packs. #1 cause right?
Highest crime rates with a deadly weapon are in the states with crazy gun control! DC, Chicago, NY, guess any others?
My place is armed 3 nights a week, come guess which three!

Honestly what we have is a mental health issue. From adolescent social media depression to a packed and under resourced social service services in any state, there are more harmful things to society and others closer to us than some guy down the street with more guns than you want to know.

 

[Grimor]

The Obama administration said Monday that the President does not support a national gun registry.
That surprises me a little bit. Or he just says he doesn't because he knows he'd be even less popular otherwise.

Of course he doesn't support a national gun registry, the supreme court has already said that is illegal. But he does support that every gun sale go through an FFL with a background check (and fee). Once they have that, it's a simple step to have the records retained to create a defacto gun registry.

Once they know where all the guns are, bit by bit they will be confiscated from "undesirables"

 

[v7guy]

With all this talk about Bloomberg, you guys should be aware of the mindset he's coming from NYC Mayor Bloomberg: Government has right to 'infringe on your freedom' - Washington Times

 

[TollKeeper]

Bloomberg, Finestein, and Obama, at least, should all be brought on on charges of High Treason.

 

[blazinlow89]

Bloomberg, Finestein, and Obama, at least, should all be brought on on charges of High Treason.

You can add Pelosi, Reid, Cuomo, and Owemalley to that list.

 

[Short Bus]

Bloomberg, Finestein, and Obama, at least, should all be brought on on charges of High Treason.

You can add Pelosi, Reid, Cuomo, and Owemalley to that list.

I can't believe Joe Biden (AKA Mr. Double Barrel Shotgun) isn't on the list. Would anyone want him as President if Obama was impeached?

 

[Hatchet]

Dont forget about everyone in the Chicago Machine.

 

[HARDTRAILZ]

Chicagistan, at least my buddy that is a cop there calls it that.

 

[blazinlow89]

I can't believe Joe Biden (AKA Mr. Double Barrel Shotgun) isn't on the list. Would anyone want him as President if Obama was impeached?

Biden seems to get more and more loony with each passing day. Should also add Boehner to the list, he has been spineless in a lot of the political battles. I just wish they would stop acting like children, pointing fingers and playing the blame game, and do their jobs. They like to ignore their constituents.

 

[Hatchet]

Chicagistan, at least my buddy that is a cop there calls it that.

or Madigastan... Named after the crook thats been in charge of the Illinois house for decades Mr Mike Madigan. The true leader of Chicago Machine and by proxy, Illinois.

 

[Fire06]

At least these politicians have your best interests at heart. It is not as if they are slimy, lying, cheating,elected and non elected crooks in office make choices for the people with out listening to the people. I said that with a straight face almost... Ok politicians really don't give a rats ass about you they just want your tax money so they can give to their pet projects, the people who vote for them and line their own pockets. That about sums it up. How smile and be happy as you get screwed over.:wootwoot::wootwoot:

 

[TollKeeper]

Interesting vid I found today...

[video=youtube;TvLdRz5pF7s]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TvLdRz5pF7s[/video]

 

[dmanns67]

If guns kill people, then vehicles must make people drive drunk...

View attachment 27335

 

[BoldAdventure]

We already answered this thread. The answer is NO.

END OF DEBATE.

 

[Short Bus]

[video=youtube;hiIGUFhPfO8]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hiIGUFhPfO8[/video]

 

[Fire06]

Why do people with common sense get this and not politicians????? O YA I said people with common sense.

 

[Short Bus]

Here's a good video about what we're dealing with, with Michael Bloomberg.

WARNING: Language!!!

[video=youtube;e6R6GPOdETA]http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=e6R6GPOdETA&feature=endscreen[/video]