Outer tie rod end popped off

[TollKeeper]

I don't think I would worry about castle nut or nylock, both will effectively do the same thing. Unless it's just a must have for you. Certainly is better than what your scamchanic did. As long as you have something that locks into place, and looks correct, I personally think you should be good.

My wife just brought up a good point, if your scamchanic also did the lift, please, for the love of God, have someone please check over everything he did. I don't trust him, and neither should you.

 

[02trailblazerLS]

I don't think I would work about castle nut or nylock, both will effectively do the same thing. Unless it's just a must have for you. Certainly is better than what your scamchanic did. As long as you have something that locks into place, and looks correct, I personally think you should be good.

My wife just brought up a good point, if your scamchanic also did the lift, please, for the love of God, have someone please check over everything he did. I don't trust him, and neither should you.

Okay thanks man, i was just thinking that the castle nut is a safer way to go. But sounds like the nylock nut is just fine from wat ur saying. And luckily the scamchanic did not do my lift, my lift was done by a different shop that has been great and never done me wrong so far.

 

[Mooseman]

Is there any way to do a 14mm to 16mm conversion on a 2002 ls? Is that even worth doing? The 16mms have the mevotech that everyone says is real good. And has a castle nut which i like.

Just to clarify regarding 14mm vs 16mm. That refers to the shank or thread size that screws into the inner tie rod. Mid-year in 2002, they switched from 14mm to 16mm. Why? Who knows. There were no safety recalls or known safety concerns, they just did. Maybe it was to prevent what that Midas douche did and used the non-lock nut on the stud.

If you would like to convert to 16mm, all you need to do is replace your inner tie rods to 16mm versions and use 16mm outers. The knuckle end is the same. I would check the tapered bores in the knuckles, especially the left one.

A lot of steering parts now come with lock nuts. These trucks originally came with castle nuts. Looking at the parts on RA, quite a few, including the ACDelco Pro tie rods, have lock nuts. I can vouch for the Mevotech TTX parts. Replaced all of mine with them and they are beefy although I have only put about 20k km.

 

[02trailblazerLS]

Just to clarify regarding 14mm vs 16mm. That refers to the shank or thread size that screws into the inner tie rod. Mid-year in 2002, they switched from 14mm to 16mm. Why? Who knows. There were no safety recalls or known safety concerns, they just did. Maybe it was to prevent what that Midas douche did and used the non-lock nut on the stud.

If you would like to convert to 16mm, all you need to do is replace your inner tie rods to 16mm versions and use 16mm outers. The knuckle end is the same. I would check the tapered bores in the knuckles, especially the left one.

A lot of steering parts now come with lock nuts. These trucks originally came with castle nuts. Looking at the parts on RA, quite a few, including the ACDelco Pro tie rods, have lock nuts. I can vouch for the Mevotech TTX parts. Replaced all of mine with them and they are beefy although I have only put about 20k km.

Ok so you can infact swap to 16mm from 14mm by getting 16mm inners and outers without changing the steering rack? And im sure youve seen my pictures above, were just still trying to figure out why the shaft is so long on my passenger side that it allows two nuts to go on but on my drivers side you can only fit one nut, and notice the rubber boots are squished up in there alot, i dont think thats correct either right?

 

[02trailblazerLS]

Ok so you can infact swap to 16mm from 14mm by getting 16mm inners and outers without changing the steering rack? And im sure youve seen my pictures above, were just still trying to figure out why the shaft is so long on my passenger side that it allows two nuts to go on but on my drivers side you can only fit one nut, and notice the rubber boots are squished up in there alot, i dont think thats correct either right?

And you mentioned to check the tapered bores inside the knuckles, im not too sure how to do that.

 

[TollKeeper]

@Mooseman - I can't think of a way to check the knuckle bore, you got any ideas? You educated me a bit, I thought it was the knuckle bore that changed on the 14 to 16mm, I didn't know it was just the threaded part, inner to outer.

@02trailblazerLS and I talked on the phone a bit, until he figures out the knuckle bore, I know I wouldn't put any more money into it, other wise the tie rods are going to do the same thing. I gave him a link for inner and outer tie rods with boots for 43 bucks. But to use autozone for a rent-a-part to get a handle on the bore first.

If the knuckle bore is wallowed, he will have to get new knuckles. Luckily the knuckles are the same for all years, and doesn't matter 2wd or 4wd. Only the bearing changed for that.

If I was in california, I would pop over to help him, but I'm about 1000 miles away.

 

[Mooseman]

I'd use a new good outer and stick it in the tapered bore. If it goes in not as deep as the previous one and is not loose, the knuckle is fine.

BTW, the wheel bearing hubs are the same for 2wd and 4wd.

 

[TollKeeper]

I'd use a new good outer and stick it in the tapered bore. If it goes in not as deep as the previous one and is not loose, the knuckle is fine.



BTW, the wheel bearing hubs are the same for 2wd and 4wd.

I have seen some of the 2wd have caps on the inner part.

Sounds like the autozone rent-a-part to test the bore.

If you do end up needing knuckles, looks like the parts trucks in your area are almost limitless.

 

[HARDTRAILZ]

The 2wd to 4wd hubs are the same. Caps are of no matter, just like stub shafts on these.

You seriously got some BS going on. Can you do the work yourself, cause the guys you let work on it could have killed you or a bus load of nuns?

If you really want, just drill out the knuckle and build some tie rods with heim joints and use a regular bolt.

I do know at one point there was a reamer for the knuckle being passed around the OffroadTB.com group of us but I cant remember if that was the 3/4 ton (which the straight design turned out to fail far more often by bending offroad) or for the 14-16mm change. Not sure who has it now.

I use cheap as I can find stock replacement tie rods since they are my fusible link and easy to swap on a trail. I get at least a couple solid years out of them with the big ass tires and minimal effective backspacing unless I do break one offroad, but that has only been twice now in a decade. My current are showing their (4 year or so age) and will get replaced with the front diff and rack since the whole thing is ready for freshening with the new front diff.

 

[gmcman]

I'm still very curious as to exactly what part they used, I would want to see all the hardware. The fact they even told you to be careful with it raises a brow... something wasn't right from the start and they seem to have known this. I have never seen a locking nut just back itself off like this, when properly fastened.

I'm almost putting money on the fact that it wasn't a crimp-style locking nut but a nylon insert and it did not thread down far enough to fully contact the nylon.

If that is the case, that's negligence on their part.

 

[02trailblazerLS]

I'm still very curious as to exactly what part they used, I would want to see all the hardware. The fact they even told you to be careful with it raises a brow... something wasn't right from the start and they seem to have known this. I have never seen a locking nut just back itself off like this, when properly fastened.

I'm almost putting money on the fact that it wasn't a crimp-style locking nut but a nylon insert and it did not thread down far enough to fully contact the nylon.

If that is the case, that's negligence on their part.

I provided the part, they were the napa chassis part number # NCP 2693204. 14 mm first design. 113$ each They did not have the crimping style locking nut, they came with the nylock bolt, but i dont know if they even put the nylock bolton, i never found the bolt. On the other side that has the bolt, i cant tell if its a nylock or not. It probably is. But we talked to a suspension specialist earlier today and he said it seems like either the knuckle is wallowed out, or the outer tie rods are incorrect and should be 16mm, he said that the boot shouldnt be pressed up in there as much as it is, which all that is pretty clear already cuz some of the other guys on this thread told me the same thing. So thats pretty much where im at. Gotta check to see if the knuckle is wallowed out first.

 

[gmcman]

So this is the side that did not come loose?



What type of nut is that? A chemical lock nut....aka,.Loctite?

That's no nylon locknut.

I would feel a lot better if it looked like one of these.

 

[gmcman]

Courtesy of NAPA, yes, it comes with a nylon locknut.



I personally would have them provide the new parts plus cost of an alignment, then take it elsewhere. Pretty much lawyer material.

Just glad nobody was injured.

 

[Mooseman]

The tapered stud on the knuckle end is the same between the 14 and 16mm tie rods. You won't be able to use the 16mm on the 14mm inner tie rods. I'm betting the holes are wallowed out or the NAPA parts are built wrong with the wrong sized tapered stud. Add to that the wrong nuts were used on the studs and you have a recipe for disaster.

You could swap your 14mm inners to 16mm to give you more options for the outers.

 

[02trailblazerLS]

So this is the side that did not come loose?

View attachment 99374

What type of nut is that? A chemical lock nut....aka,.Loctite?

That's no nylon locknut.

I would feel a lot better if it looked like one of these.

View attachment 99375

View attachment 99376

Oh crap well they really screwed me over, the napa chassis parts comes with the nylock nut, i guess they didnt use it though.

 

[02trailblazerLS]

Courtesy of NAPA, yes, it comes with a nylon locknut.

View attachment 99377

I personally would have them provide the new parts plus cost of an alignment, then take it elsewhere. Pretty much lawyer material.

Just glad nobody was injured.

Okay and im glad nobody got hurt as well, coulda been horrible.
I called that shop and let them know wat happened n they were not helpful they just denied it being there fault and that i should do more research

 

[02trailblazerLS]

The tapered stud on the knuckle end is the same between the 14 and 16mm tie rods. You won't be able to use the 16mm on the 14mm inner tie rods. I'm betting the holes are wallowed out or the NAPA parts are built wrong with the wrong sized tapered stud. Add to that the wrong nuts were used on the studs and you have a recipe for disaster.

You could swap your 14mm inners to 16mm to give you more options for the outers.

Okay thanks! Im going to swap to the mevotech 16mm outers , with the 16mm mevotech or proforged inner tie rods. That seems like a solid setup.

 

[northcreek]

Just gone back from the local shop, this was a different shop and the guy was very helpful, he said that the other shop ( Midas) mustve not tightened the bolt to spec, n it got backed out after vibration. And he said my tie rod end is infact broken at this point and that u shouldnt be able to fit two nuts on there. He recommended i get a high quality replacement. but the tie rods i have are already “ high quality “ tie rods! They were 110$ each! Is there any better 14mm tie rods? Mine are the Napa chassis parts ones

I think that they are missing the problem. The two nuts on the stud are able to be on there because the knuckle taper is shot and the nuts are probably bottomed out on the threads and it is not tight in the taper. Even if it is broken the tapered stud should not be able enter the taper deep enough to crush the boot like it is.
This is not like a typical bolt/nut where the nut is the cinch. In this case the taper is the cinch and the nut keeps/locks the stud in the taper.

 

[02trailblazerLS]

I think that they are missing the problem. The two nuts on the stud are able to be on there because the knuckle taper is shot and the nuts are probably bottomed out on the threads and it is not tight in the taper. Even if it is broken the tapered stud should not be able enter the taper deep enough to crush the boot like it is.
This is not like a typical bolt/nut where the nut is the cinch. In this case the taper is the cinch and the nut keeps/locks the stud in the taper.

Crap, so sounds like i do infact need to replace the knuckle. Thanks for your help man.

 

[TollKeeper]

Before you replace the knuckle, I would try the autozone rent-a-part thing first. It may just be a defective part from Napa. If it goes in further than that picture I sent you, you know it's a knuckle.

 

[Mektek]

I don't think you need to replace the knuckle. Just fabricate a shim out of sheet metal that will fit around the stud. That will prevent it from going in so deep and also give it a tighter fit. Also, the nut pictured is a jam nut - ordinarily that should be OK for this application.
There is the possibility that the rod end was incorrectly manufactured. You should verify that the diameter of the stud is the same on both sides.

 

[Redbeard]

"There is the possibility that the rod end was incorrectly manufactured. You should verify that the diameter of the stud is the same on both sides. "

YEP
Reminds me of seeing my father beating on a ball joint when I was a youngster. He was trying to install it and it wouldn't fit. About the time my father damaged the new ball joint from trying to forcefully install it with a hammer he took out his micrometer to measure the new ball joint. It was .010 to large. Ten thousandths of an inch oversize and to much for a press fit even with a hammer . Looking back I would have thought a machinist would have done that FIRST. He was a fine machinist but a poor shade tree mechanic. Since he damaged the new ball joint beyond being able to return it he had to purchase another one, which this time he measured it first. Steep learning curve. Yet it was a great learning tool for me because I don't want to make the same mistake! Several years ago I had a pair of front brake pads that wouldn't fit. A/C Delco no less. The calipers made for quick measurement to see the new pads were a bit oversized and a file made the pad factory sized

 

[Mooseman]

Just fabricate a shim out of sheet metal that will fit around the stud.

I cringe at that thought on such a critical part and I'm sure the new shop will agree if they're any good and responsible. Try the new tie rods. I think that it's probably those Napa parts that are made wrong and the knuckles are probably fine. If not, there are plenty of used ones in yards.

 

[TollKeeper]

Before you replace the knuckle, I would try the autozone rent-a-part thing first. It may just be a defective part from Napa. If it goes in further than that picture I sent you, you know it's a knuckle.

Just for everyones reference, here is the picture I sent him of my ball joint.

Anyone with a careful eye will notice a problem (not tie rod related), that I noticed when I took this pic..

(site wont let me upload the pic.. I get this error - The upload failed because the temporary directory was missing. The site administrator will need to resolve this before any files can be uploaded.)

 

[Mooseman]

(site wont let me upload the pic.. I get this error - The upload failed because the temporary directory was missing. The site administrator will need to resolve this before any files can be uploaded.)

Yep, we are having some technical difficulties. Please stand by....

 

[budwich]

surely this problem is relatively easy to "identify". Get another new tie rod (hopefully from another store / maker). Since your old one "pops" out easy, it should be relatively easy to disassemble again. Get a caliper and take measurement of the old and new along it taper. That will likely tell you if you have a "parts issue" or knuckle issue. Go from the result.

 

[TollKeeper]

Pic finally loaded.

As I said, those with a Keen Eye will notice something that isnt right in my pic, not Tie-Rod related.

 

[TollKeeper]

So I went thru the thread again, and also the pics posted. One thing I noticed about one of your pics..

On the first post, where you have the pic of the Tie-Rod handing out of the knuckle, Those threads look to be completely wiped.

Also, I would take the wheel off the other side, your ABS wire needs to get mounted before it gets caught up in the tire. I think the Tie-Rod on this side might actually be OK, it looks sucked into the knuckle a little more than it should, but the nut on top holding it, is completely wrong.

 

[Mooseman]

Talk about a botched job!

 

[gmcman]

something that isnt right in my pic

Is that the weather/dust seal on the bearing?

 

[TollKeeper]

Is that the weather/dust seal on the bearing?

Thats the wheel bearing big O-Ring. Didnt notice it had fallen in when replacing the bearing. Since we dont typically keep bearing in the trucks longer than 3-5 years, dont know if its something i should worry about or not. I have spares from the old ones I took off.

 

[02trailblazerLS]

So turns out the knuckle was indeed wallowed out! I contacted that horrible shop that did my tie rods, and he’s denied that they are in the wrong and that they messed up. They messed up so bad, the tie rods come with a nylock nut and that shop didnt even use it, they used crimp nuts instead. They didnt even torque the nuts down to spec we believe, and they did a poor alignment job and couldnt provide an alignment sheet after! So starting from the beggining of all this, i got ny truck back from the other shop that did my lift kit, all was great so far, three weeks to a month later i decided to go get the tires and rims put on at a local tire shop called Midas. Upon arrival everything was fine and they went and did the tires and alignment, after i showed up to pick it up, they informed me that my outer tie rods were worn out and that theres up and down play in them. So they gave me back the truck with a freshly finished alignment and worn tie rods, few days later i went back and had em put in the new tie rods, they put em in and upon arrival to pick it up that time, they never mentioned anything about there still being play in the tie rods, nor did they mention the knuckle was wallowed. So i had assumed everything was sorted and ready to go. Remember, at that time this all happened, i did not know much about suspension at all, i didnt know how the tie rods worked or wat they were even for. Im still new to engines n suspensions as this is my first truck so im still learning stuff. Anyways, Fast forward to today, where ive talked to the guy that did the tie rods and called him out on his mistakes that coulda costed me my life. He is basically giving me excuses! trying to say that he indeed did tell me about the knuckle and play in the tie rods AFTER the new ones were already put in, which is a huge lie, on the order sheet it mentions nothing bout there being play or a wallowed knuckle. When i got it back that day They just told me to be careful offroad pretty much. They said not to bump it up stuff and not to pin it while turning fully, which is common sense. Other than that they never said anything bout there being play in the tie rods. So now im in a situation where we are getting into contact with the B.A.R. To get some justice to this. This is some major BS and is not fair.

 

[northcreek]

Amazing that we could see that from photos and the Hacks that were working on it thought that it was okay...unbelievable and unforgivable.

 

[Mooseman]

Yep, we all called it. Could have all been avoided. They might not have been responsible for the original wallowing out of the knuckles since they were first looking for "longer" tie rods, a real mechanic would have recognized the problem and recommended to you that they be replaced with a good used pair. They owe you, at the very least, the labour you paid them and the destroyed parts they improperly installed.

 

[02trailblazerLS]

Yep, we all called it. Could have all been avoided. They might not have been responsible for the original wallowing out of the knuckles since they were first looking for "longer" tie rods, a real mechanic would have recognized the problem and recommended to you that they be replaced with a good used pair. They owe you, at the very least, the labour you paid them and the destroyed parts they improperly installed.

I Totally agree man

 

[TollKeeper]

Im just thankful we/you caught this before you hit the trail, or had a accident from their bodge job.

If you dont mind me asking, where did you find the donor parts? How expensive were they? I know you are in California, and things tend to be more expensive over there.

 

[02trailblazerLS]

Im just thankful we/you caught this before you hit the trail, or had a accident from their bodge job.

If you dont mind me asking, where did you find the donor parts? How expensive were they? I know you are in California, and things tend to be more expensive over there.

Me too man, and im still in the process of getting the knuckle part number figured out, i have the number for the right side but not the drivers side, after that i just need a few tie rods

 

[TollKeeper]

You trying to buy new?

I ask because knuckles normally dont go bad. And it would be a part I would have no problem buying used. Its like 6 bolts (2 for the brake caliper mount, upper ball joint, lower ball joint, tie rod end), plus the CV axle nut.. I would go for used. Much cheaper. I only mention it because in the 13 yearsish I have owned my Envoy, and being a member here, and the "The Other" place, this is the first time I have ever seen a knuckle go bad, that wasnt from a wreck.

You could also go the ebay route, they look to be about 100 bucks for both sides shipped. Just be sure to order them out of non-rust belt states.
Matched set from the same truck for 120 shipped.. (from Colorado, rust free)

Passenger Right Front Spindle/Knuckle Fits 02-09 ENVOY 359314 | eBay

Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for Passenger Right Front Spindle/Knuckle Fits 02-09 ENVOY 359314 at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!

www.ebay.com

Driver Left Front Spindle/Knuckle Fits 02-09 ENVOY 359315 | eBay

Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for Driver Left Front Spindle/Knuckle Fits 02-09 ENVOY 359315 at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!

www.ebay.com

06, so they would be the 16mm

eBay also has new, for right at 1000 bucks both sides
Looks to be part #'s 18060667 and 18060666 for 14mm
Looks to be part #'s 19303481 and 19303482 for 16mm

 

[02trailblazerLS]

You trying to buy new?

I ask because knuckles normally dont go bad. And it would be a part I would have no problem buying used. Its like 6 bolts (2 for the brake caliper mount, upper ball joint, lower ball joint, tie rod end), plus the CV axle nut.. I would go for used. Much cheaper. I only mention it because in the 13 yearsish I have owned my Envoy, and being a member here, and the "The Other" place, this is the first time I have ever seen a knuckle go bad, that wasnt from a wreck.

You could also go the ebay route, they look to be about 100 bucks for both sides shipped. Just be sure to order them out of non-rust belt states.
Matched set from the same truck for 120 shipped.. (from Colorado, rust free)

Passenger Right Front Spindle/Knuckle Fits 02-09 ENVOY 359314 | eBay

Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for Passenger Right Front Spindle/Knuckle Fits 02-09 ENVOY 359314 at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!

www.ebay.com

Driver Left Front Spindle/Knuckle Fits 02-09 ENVOY 359315 | eBay

Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for Driver Left Front Spindle/Knuckle Fits 02-09 ENVOY 359315 at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!

www.ebay.com

06, so they would be the 16mm

eBay also has new, for right at 1000 bucks both sides
Looks to be part #'s 18060667 and 18060666 for 14mm
Looks to be part #'s 19303481 and 19303482 for 16mm

Thanks man I appreciate that!

 

[02trailblazerLS]

You trying to buy new?

I ask because knuckles normally dont go bad. And it would be a part I would have no problem buying used. Its like 6 bolts (2 for the brake caliper mount, upper ball joint, lower ball joint, tie rod end), plus the CV axle nut.. I would go for used. Much cheaper. I only mention it because in the 13 yearsish I have owned my Envoy, and being a member here, and the "The Other" place, this is the first time I have ever seen a knuckle go bad, that wasnt from a wreck.

You could also go the ebay route, they look to be about 100 bucks for both sides shipped. Just be sure to order them out of non-rust belt states.
Matched set from the same truck for 120 shipped.. (from Colorado, rust free)

Passenger Right Front Spindle/Knuckle Fits 02-09 ENVOY 359314 | eBay

Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for Passenger Right Front Spindle/Knuckle Fits 02-09 ENVOY 359314 at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!

www.ebay.com

Driver Left Front Spindle/Knuckle Fits 02-09 ENVOY 359315 | eBay

Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for Driver Left Front Spindle/Knuckle Fits 02-09 ENVOY 359315 at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!

www.ebay.com

06, so they would be the 16mm

eBay also has new, for right at 1000 bucks both sides
Looks to be part #'s 18060667 and 18060666 for 14mm
Looks to be part #'s 19303481 and 19303482 for 16mm

Im gonna go with some used ones, not worth buying em brand new