4.2 keeps losing oil pressure

chuey_316

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Nov 10, 2019
77
SW MI
It's been awhile since my last update. Finally got some some off work, and since I don't have a garage ready to do any extensive work yet, I figured why not have a look at the pickup screen.

I drained the oil, and used a Q bit and drilled a hole under the center of the screen. Sure enough the screen was pretty much plugged. I spent about an 30-40 minutes with a can of Berrymans B12 spray and an assortment of metal picks, and got the screen good and clean.

I tapped the hole with a 3/8-24 tap, and put a bolt in it using a rubber washer, with a metal washer of the same diameter on top and tightened it down. and had no leaks.

I started the truck, and had around 80psi on startup, and gradually went down as the engine warmed up. The pressure stayed around 10psi or a bit over at idle for 20 or so minutes, and roughly 60psi at 2k. I let it idle another 5-10 minutes while I cleaned up my tools, and when I rechecked it, the pressure was still at or just above 10psi, and about 30psi at 2k.

At this point I decided to take the truck to the gas station 3-4 blocks away. Did good right up until the turn to the station, where the pressure dropped to 0. I got the truck home, and hung my head in defeat with a few choice words.

I was sitting inside and I suddenly thought to myself, what if the screen is plugged again? I figured probably not that quickly, but with my newly installed plug, it was easy to check. I started the truck, and let it run until the engine warmed up, noticing that the pressure wasn't as good as earlier. Only about 30psi, and after dropping closer to 10psi, giving it some gas didn't raise the pressure much like before.

I drained the oil and had a look with my endoscope camera, and sure enough, the screen was mostly plugged again. Had a look around the inside of the pan and there is still areas with allot of deposits that appear to be somewhat loose. I figured that could be why the pressure holds so good until it's driven, and the oil starts getting sloshed around, freeing up those loose chunks to be sucked up into the pickup screen.

I haven't dismissed the chance that I may still have to take on the task of dropping the pan, but I must say this gives me a glimmer of hope. Last time I used 96oz can of chem-dip. I plan on putting 2 cans in the pan this time and letting it soak for awhile in order to clean more of the pan out, followed by flushing the pan with a few gallons of diesel, putting in 6qt of oil and 1qt of atf, and letting it idle for 10-15 minutes, followed by draining and flushing the pan one more time before refilling with fresh oil.
 

Mooseman

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Dec 4, 2011
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You actually drilled a hole in the bottom of your pan? Man you've got some brass cajones but that was a cool idea. A pic of the hole and plug would be appreciated. Did you drill it directly under the pickup?
 

chuey_316

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Nov 10, 2019
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SW MI
You actually drilled a hole in the bottom of your pan? Man you've got some brass cajones but that was a cool idea. A pic of the hole and plug would be appreciated. Did you drill it directly under the pickup?
Yeah, I figured that if the plug didn't work, I'd have to pull the pan anyway, so I'd still be in for the same amount of work, and yes, I drilled it directly under the screen. The pan was very easy to drill through and really easy to tap as well.

I'll try to remember to get a couple pics tomorrow, and the parts I used if we get a break in the rain.
 

mrrsm

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I agree with @Mooseman... You've got some Serious Stones to consider this effort... and You deserve some Serious Props for pulling this off. What most people don't realize is that over the Long Life of these Atlas Motors... As the Rings wear (or get solidly trapped into the Lands and Grooves of the Pistons) the amount of Greasy, Carbon-Laden Gas Blow-By that manages to contaminate the Motor Oil Year In and Year Out ...is just astonishing. Great Chunks of that Greasy Carbon and Gas Gum eventually manage to get stuck (Lacquered) to the vertical walls and lower Oil Pan.

But after suffering from repeated Engine Temperature Heating and Cooling Run Cycles...that Black Sh*t breaks loose and even before it can even reach the Oil Filter...it can get vacuumed up into the small chamber of the Oil Pick Up Tube and get stopped inside and then stuck FAST to the Oil Pick-Up Screen.

I would like to suggest that now with your successful experience of using Berryman's B-12 Spray Solvent... that perhaps you'll consider taking the NEXT Step by Draining (and Saving) the latest batch of New Motor Oil... Save the New Oil Filter, Too and just replace it with Brand New 'Cheap' One just to fill that space. Then ... Fill Up the Crankcase with around 2 Gallons of Berrymans's Chem-Dip Carburetor Solvent. This of course means using 2-3 of the 3/4 Gallon Sized Cans of this Stuff ...NOT the Spray Version that you started your Clean Out with.

Leave it soaking down there undisturbed inside the Crankcase for around Four Hours and NO LONGER. Avoid Starting and Running the Engine during this Solvent Soak. Afterwards... Drain it out through the "Stock" Drain Plug and then use some Brand New "Cheap" Organic 5W-30 Motor Oil and a "Cheap Oil" Filter that you can Autopsy right after this Experiment is over. Also, Swap out (1) Quart of the "Cheap" Organic Motor Oil for (1) Quart of ATF.

Then, Start the Motor ...closely watching the Oil Pressure...and allow the Engine to Idle for 10-15 Minutes. This will remove any of the leftover Berryman's Solvent Residue and Dissolved "Carbon Mung". After that, Drain and Change back to your New HQ Oil Filter and Fresh HQ Synthetic Motor Oil. Once again, Start the Engine and allow it to Idle again for awhile before taking a Short Test Drive while closely monitoring your Oil Pressure. Hopefully, the Engine will hold Good Pressure afterwards.
 

budwich

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Jun 16, 2013
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Yeah, I figured that if the plug didn't work, I'd have to pull the pan anyway, so I'd still be in for the same amount of work, and yes, I drilled it directly under the screen. The pan was very easy to drill through and really easy to tap as well.

I'll try to remember to get a couple pics tomorrow, and the parts I used if we get a break in the rain.
Great work and follow thru. You appear to have proved that a hole can be readily "sealed". Now you just need to figure out how to clean out the gunk and then "bob's your uncle".
 
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JerryIrons

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Dec 20, 2011
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You actually drilled a hole in the bottom of your pan? Man you've got some brass cajones but that was a cool idea. A pic of the hole and plug would be appreciated. Did you drill it directly under the pickup?
I know right? I haven't done any of that work but isn't cleaning out the oil pickup supposed a nightmare of a project? I thought it was a cool idea as well!

Potential problems with this approach?
1) Boogering up the hole you are drilling, making a good sealable hole difficult. A nice slow steady drilling process would help prevent this? Also drilling too far in of course.
2) Metal shavings from the drilling left up inside. Maybe use a small pick to scrape around up inside, and "rinse" things out with oil? I would be tempted to change the oil filter a few times after running a bit, it supposed to pick up debris before it hits the engine?
3) Seepage over time. Easy enough to keep an eye on, you will be changing the oil on a regular basis.

btw the remote camera I bought at harbor freight was about $80 and worked great.

Yes and please show some pics chuey! :smile:
 
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chuey_316

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SW MI
Thanks for the info MRRSM, that's the next steps I have planned as I seen another post from you about this approach.

To answer your questions Jerry
1) A slow drill speed is key, as the material is pretty soft. No need to even really put pressure on the drill. Just let it do the work. I didn't measure, but i'd says that there was at least and inch or more space between the screen and the bottom of the pan. Much more than I figured there would be.

2)To keep metal shavings from getting in the pan, dip the drill bit in some grease and the shavings will stick to the grease as you drill. I would stop drilling every 3-4 seconds to check the depth of the hole, clean off the bit, and re-dip in grease.

3) Time will tell on the seepage, but so far so good. If I get any leaks, then a thicker washer will be swapped in. I'll probably do that anyhow for peace of mind.
 

budwich

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probably a dumb suggestion... but have you thought of create a "mini pressure washer"... :smile:

The tip would some form of small hose / pipe bent at a right angle to put into the hole and rotate around to blast the stuff which then would either draw out of the oil drain hole or the sides of the "input hole". The "sprayer" can be found that has a compressor connection for air and a pickup tube for solvent / liquid.

this is an example

I think I picked up one at princessauto or harbor freight for $25 or so a long while ago.
 
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chuey_316

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SW MI
probably a dumb suggestion... but have you thought of create a "mini pressure washer"... :smile:

The tip would some form of small hose / pipe bent at a right angle to put into the hole and rotate around to blast the stuff which then would either draw out of the oil drain hole or the sides of the "input hole". The "sprayer" can be found that has a compressor connection for air and a pickup tube for solvent / liquid.
I hadn't thought of that. I don't see any reason it wouldn't work, but it would be hard to get to all of the pan, as you can't see where you'd be aiming the spray.

I went out to get a quick pic, but the oil that drained down from the top end overnight is draining now, along with more small pieces of grit. I'm hoping to get the pan filled with Chem-Dip today.
 
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chuey_316

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The bolt is a 3/8-24. I believe it's 1-1/4" or 1-1/2" in length. The whole bolt will fit as is, but I cut it down to 1/2" so I'd only have a few threads sticking through the inside of the pan. One less thing for gunk to build up on. The rubber washer is 3/8" x 1-1/4" x 1/16". The main thing is to make sure that the metal washer is the same diameter, or better yet, slightly larger, because as you tighten the bolt, the rubber will compress and span out. A larger metal washer will help ensure good contact with the pan.
20210713_010320.jpg

A pic of the location of the hole. The hole is actually to the left of the plug if looking from the front of the vehicle. I was laying with my feet facing the front door these pics.
20210713_115039.jpg

A pic of the new plug installed.
20210713_103245.jpg

I tried to get a pic of the hole itself and the threads, but my camera wouldn't focus.
 
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chuey_316

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Nov 10, 2019
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I plan to use a bit of thread sealant for extra piece of mind the next time I pull the bolt out to clean the screen, but I need to find one that won't lock the threads like loctite, and won't come apart and end up in the pan. Last thing I want is to strip the threads removing the bolt in the future if the screen was to get clogged again.
 

TJBaker57

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Aug 16, 2015
2,897
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I plan to use a bit of thread sealant for extra piece of mind the next time I pull the bolt out to clean the screen, but I need to find one that won't lock the threads like loctite, and won't come apart and end up in the pan. Last thing I want is to strip the threads removing the bolt in the future if the screen was to get clogged again.


For curiosity sake,,, how thick would you say the pan is where you drilled through and threaded? And did you use a coarse or fine thread pitch bolt??
 

chuey_316

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Nov 10, 2019
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SW MI
For curiosity sake,,, how thick would you say the pan is where you drilled through and threaded? And did you use a coarse or fine thread pitch bolt??
I'd say the pan is about 1/4-3/8" thick. I used a Q drill bit and a 3/8-24 tap. Anything smaller in diameter won't give enough room to clean the screen, or fit an endoscope in the pan, and a coarse thread won't have enough threads per inch for the thickness of the pan.
 

TJBaker57

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Aug 16, 2015
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I'd say the pan is about 1/4-3/8" thick. I used a Q drill bit and a 3/8-24 tap. Anything smaller in diameter won't give enough room to clean the screen, or fit an endoscope in the pan, and a coarse thread won't have enough threads per inch for the thickness of the pan.

Having a bit more time to read more thoroughly I see you had already mentioned this info!! Sorry for the repetition.
 

mrrsm

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I was thinking... you COULD buttress this possible weak point in the Oil Pan by getting a section of Aluminum Plate, say around 1/2" X 4" X 4" in dimensions and tap it to match your Brilliant New Bolt Solution's Specs. Then after super-cleaning both mating surfaces, use some Automotive Grade High Temp JB-Weld to bind them together.

You might thread in the New Access Bolt first and hike that Aluminum Plate Port into alignment with the Large Hole using a Chunk of 2-by-4 (drilled out to relieve the presence of the Bolt Head) and allow it to very gently rest on a Floor Jack with just enough pressure on these "married" components and allow things to cure overnight. Like one Helluva' Peanut Butter Sandwich!

As we know, there is no Dynamic Oil Pressure to work against that fixture beyond the weight of (7) Quarts of Oil, so no reasons for concern there, but beveling the edges of the Aluminum Plate would discourage dis-lodging this item from any angular impact from possible contact with road debris. The Attached Image gives an idea of just how thick the bottom of the Crankcase is in that area.

Amazon carries the Extreme High Temperature (1,000 Degrees F) JB-Weld here for around $8.00:


...AND they carry these 2 Pieces of 1/2" X 4" Square Aluminum Flat Bar Stock, too for $18.00:

 

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budwich

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I hadn't thought of that. I don't see any reason it wouldn't work, but it would be hard to get to all of the pan, as you can't see where you'd be aiming the spray.

I went out to get a quick pic, but the oil that drained down from the top end overnight is draining now, along with more small pieces of grit. I'm hoping to get the pan filled with Chem-Dip today.
you could use the oil drain hole for the "endo camera" (assuming its liquid proof) and watch the spray areas therein. Just some idle thoughts. You have progressed pretty far and I suspect you will be successful with the type of "soaking effort" that has been well described in the posts.
 
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chuey_316

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Thanks guys, I'll definitely keep both of those suggestions in mind.

I put in just under 2-1/2 cans of chem dip 5-10 minutes ago. Should be right around 7qts. I just hope it's not at a high enough level to hurt any seals.
 
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mrrsm

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The Berryman's would have to fill the space above the Oil Pan high enough to reach the lower orbit of the Crankshaft #1 and #7 Journal Positions...so you will probably be fine with only 7 Quarts. One Last Caution... Avoid using any Cut-Off Wheel Grinding Abrasive Discs meant strictly for prior use on anything made of Steel and Iron, as grinding out Bevels afterwards on anything Aluminum can mix these two Metals together and form a combustible called Thermate (...think 'Thermite' here... Aluminum + Powdered Red Iron Oxide = 4.500 Degrees F once ignited).
 
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chuey_316

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The Berryman's would have to fill the space above the Oil Pan high enough to reach the lower orbit of the Crankshaft #1 and #7 Journal Positions...so you will probably be fine with only 7 Quarts.

Thanks. I was going to put the whole 3rd can in, which would be around 8.6qts, but decided not to chance having too much.

My plan is to drain the chem dip back into the containers using a filter to see what all comes out, then dump a gallon of diesel in the pan, rock the truck up, down, and side to side, and drain that using a filter as well, and repeat the diesel rinses until it comes out clean before adding any oil and running the engine.
 
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mrrsm

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Ya gotta LOVE Big Coffee Filters for Jobs like this one...
 
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chuey_316

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Ya gotta LOVE Big Coffee Filters for Jobs like this one...
Coffee filters was my first thought, but I couldn't think of a good way to attach them to a funnel in order to catch everything.

The people at the store sure do give funny looks to the guy buying multiple boxes of flesh tone pantyhose.🤣
 
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chuey_316

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A quick look at the screen
20210713_23_03_19.png
I took a short video of the inside, but can't upload it, so I took some screenshots during the video. The screen and pan look good. Everything above however....
Screenshot_20210713-235032_Video Player.jpgScreenshot_20210713-235021_Video Player.jpgScreenshot_20210713-235050_Video Player.jpg

If this engine holds pressure, I see ALLOT of short oil change intervals, and screen cleanings in the foreseeable future.
 
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chuey_316

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I uploaded the video to YouTube so I could share it here. It's a minute long, and a bit shakey because I was holding the endoscope with one hand and a tablet with the other while trying to pan around, and not get the lens smudged.

 
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Mooseman

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The screen looks pretty clean now but as some of that coked up oil falls off, it might re-clog it. Hopefully the Berryman's will dissolve most of it.
 
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chuey_316

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I ended up using the full 3 cans. This was after a 4hr soak. It looks the Berryman's did a very good job at cleaning, but I think I'll be trying Budwich's idea as well, and building or buying a pneumatic sprayer to attempt to blast the upper area with diesel, or some other solvent.
 
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mrrsm

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Very Interesting... I'm assuming this was taken AFTER the (4) Hour Soak. You have identified the Main Culprit for being Decorated with Carbon Mung Chunks as the larger source for dropping down all this Crap: The Engine Cradle. It looks like a 'Hanging Garden for Gunk'. However, it also prompts yet another opportunity that you could try out:

Props to @budwich for "First Post" on this Theme...

(1) Get a Small Garden Fertilizer-Insecticide Spray Pump.
(2) Get a Rubber Stopper of the Right Size and Poke a Hole in it at the Center.
(3) Feed the Spray Rod into and through the Stopper around 4"-6".
(4) Fill the Sprayer Tank with Lacquer Thinner OR Denatured Alcohol OR Acetone.
(5) Use a Face Shield Mask and Neoprene LONG Gloves for Protection.
(6) Lay out a Large Catch Pan under the SUV
(7) Have an ABC Fire Extinguisher Close at Hand.
(8) Guide the Spray Nozzle through the New Oil Pan Port.
(9) Plug in the Stopper Good and Snug.
(10) Pressurize the Tank and Spray the contents while moving the Nozzle around.
(11) Pull the Stopper & Get Clear as that Dissolved Black Carbon Mung Drops into the Catch Pan.
(12) Wash...Rinse...Repeat as Needed...

By the way... Not certain that the Nylon Fabric will maintain itself in the presence of the Berryman's Chem-Dip since it is created from Polymerized Cyclohexane mixed within an Acid and then drawn though Water as a Liquid Monomer to make... Nylon. It is LOADED with Carbon Atoms and may therefore be susceptible to Breaking Down if used a lot as a Filter or Screen when Straining out the Berrymans' Chem-Dip.
 
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mrrsm

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Dude... I'll tell my Grandchildren about YOU... Man...:thumbsup:
 
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chuey_316

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Very Interesting... I'm assuming this was taken AFTER the (4) Hour Soak. You have identified the Main Culprit for being Decorated with Carbon Mung Chunks as the larger source for dropping down all this Crap: The Engine Cradle. It looks like a 'Hanging Garden for Gunk'. However, it also prompts yet another opportunity that you could try out:

Props to @budwich for "First Post" on this Theme...

(1) Get a Small Garden Fertilizer-Insecticide Spray Pump.
(2) Get a Rubber Stopper of the Right Size and Poke a Hole in it at the Center.
(3) Feed the Spray Rod into and through the Stopper around 4"-6".
(4) Fill the Sprayer Tank with Lacquer Thinner OR Denatured Alcohol OR Acetone.
(5) Use a Face Shield Mask and Neoprene LONG Gloves for Protection.
(6) Lay out a Large Catch Pan under the SUV
(7) Have an ABC Fire Extinguisher Close at Hand.
(8) Guide the Spray Nozzle through the New Oil Pan Port.
(9) Plug in the Stopper Good and Snug.
(10) Pressurize the Tank and Spray the contents while moving the Nozzle around.
(11) Pull the Stopper & Get Clear as that Dissolved Black Carbon Mung Drops into the Catch Pan.
(12) Wash...Rinse...Repeat as Needed...
Sounds like a good plan, but would these solvents harm any seals? My only worry is not being able to see what I'm spraying.
 
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mrrsm

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The Screens of your CPAS will need an R&R and a Good Clean Out, too when all is said and done.
 

mrrsm

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Well, to be honest, I would go right back to using the Berryman's Chem-Dip FIRST and simply use MORE of it because ALL of the Atlas LL8 Engine Seals are made of Poly-Tetra-Fluoro-Ethylene (No Carbon) and you know that TEFLON (Viton) is one of THE MOST Durable and long lasting materials in the presence of a very wide range of Solvents.

My Second Favorite for straight up De-Gumming Motor Parts besides would be Lacquer Thinner. But the Safer Bet would be to just top off the Crankcase to a level just shy of where the Counterweights-Lobes on the Crankshaft are situated... with MORE Berryman's Chem-Dip. If I had to wager on this using a SWAG (Scientific Wild Ass Guess) I'd say you'll need at LEAST 3 More Cans + the Used Stuff to fully cover the Cradle & dissolve all of that Crap. One More Full Monty Four Hour Soak should do it.

That way, you would certain to have the Top & Bottom of the Cradle under full submersion. Check out the 'Information and Cautions' of the side of one of the Berryman's Chem-Dip Cans and see if anything looks untoward. Right now... I 'd say that sticking with what works may be the Safer Approach. Check for the Chemical Content Active Ingredients of the Berryman's Chem-Dip against this Linked Dupont Teflon Chemical Compatibility Chart and if anything looks untoward... you can choose an Alternative Solvent for the Internal Lower Engine Spraying activities:


 

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chuey_316

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Unfortunately, I apparently purchased all of the chem dip available in my area, so I have 4.5gal of diesel soaking in there atm, and have been rocking the truck here and there to get any loose pieces to detach so they can be drained out.

I'll do an oil and filter change after it's set a little longer, and see if pressure holds, or if the screen just plugs up again. If the problem persists, then I may just have to order more chem dip from Amazon.
 
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chuey_316

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Well, I drained out the diesel and did an oil/filter change. Let the engine warm up, and made it to the gas station with no issues. I then drove it gently for roughly 2-3 miles, staying within a few blocks of home just in case. The pressure held fine, but over the last few blocks I watched it slowly drop. When I pulled in the drive, the mechanical gauge was low, but not enough to trigger the dummy gauge. I'm going to head to Harbor Freight today and see if I can pick up a gauge that will read lower psi than the one I have.

I'll drain the oil in a bit, and have another look at the screen. If it's plugged up again, I may do another engine flush. Hopefully with all of the chem dip, and diesel soaks, the gunk will be loose enough to get cleaned out, at least a good portion of it anyway.
 
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mrrsm

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By the way... *Arguably* as an Artist (Oil on Canvas Landscapes)... I've relied upon Odorless Paint Thinner as a VERY Powerful Paint and Lacquer Thinner which would also have some excellent application in THIS setting... especially if what you are looking for is a "High Slosh Around" factor above whatever Diesel Fuel can provide. It IS a bit Pricey perhaps... but a Superb Solvent all around... and one more Bennie? NO TURPENTINE SMELL.

 

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mrrsm

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You could do BOTH...But Mind You... Regular Paint Thinner has some ADDITIONAL properties that the Oder-less Flavor does NOT possess. And again, refer to that Dupont Teflon (PTFE.PDF) Document I linked above to make certain on whether or not there are any sort of Chemical incompatibilities prior to using that Solvent. Ordinary Paint Thinner is also VERY High in VOCs and is therefore much more Flammable when used out in the open air.

So I would suggest also Disconnecting the Battery Negative Cable prior to using this type of touchy solvent just to make certain there are NO Ignition Sources around and active once you start pouring the stuff down inside the Oil Filler Neck. Having a ABC Fire Extinguisher close at hand is a very good idea.

One other observation concerns the presence of the Carbon Clogged up 'innards' of your Motor; in particular, those 'Rhomboid Shaped' Oil Drain Down Passages cast into the Engine Block walls for rigid strength enhancement. THAT is where the Engine Oil cascades down from the Engine Head in order to get right back down into the Crankcase reservoir. The Gerotor Oil Pump in the Atlas Motor is capable of moving over 11 Gallons of Motor Oil Per Minute through the Oiling System.

Your posted images indicates that Flushing the Upper Engine Head with a Good Solvent with the Valve Cover OFF in order to completely clean out those quasi-tube drain down pipes would not be a bad idea at some time in the future. The Attached Image shows how 'patent' (Open and Clear) those "Tubes" are supposed to be in order to drain properly. It might seem highly unlikely... but if they are ALL as occluded and blocked off as the one depicted in your photo... enough Motor Oil could get pumped up into the top of the head at Higher RPM to fail to return fast enough down inside the Oil Pan and replenish the Oil Supply. Just sayin'... it MIGHT be a contributing factor.
 

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chuey_316

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Thanks I'll look into it. Just got home with a new gauge, and had a look at the pickup screen, and it was about 50-60% plugged again. I started straining the new oil I drained before leaving, and there was enough crud that the oil had a hard time flowing through my makeshift filter.

I also bought a pump sprayer and attempted to spray everything down with the chem dip, but didn't have any real success. I looked at pneumatic sprayers while I was at Harbor Freight as well, but the tips are too large to fit through the drain plug opening.

I don't see any options other than multiple engine flushes at this point.
 

chuey_316

Original poster
Member
Nov 10, 2019
77
SW MI
Also, how much work am I looking at to remove the valve cover. I've read where people say to took them 13hrs, but that seems very excessive from the look of things. Then again I also see people saying that changing the alt takes a couple hours, and the water pump as well, but after doing a couple, I'm able to do them in around 20 minutes on these motors.
 

mrrsm

Lifetime VIP Donor
Supporting Donor
Member
Oct 22, 2015
7,640
Tampa Bay Area
You know I could talk about these "Greasy Carbon" Clogging Up issues until I am literally "Blue in The Face..." but the Reading Membership (and the Lurkers who should really JOIN Us Here) will REALLY remember and respond to seeing Digital Images of what you have just described. THAT approach might make people see what is going on to complicate your situation with that Gunk spread out on napkins in Plain Sight.
 

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