05 Envoy XL 5.3 Won't Crank

[EnvoyMan]

Hi guys, I've done a DoD delete on my 05 5.3 Envoy Denali, however now the car won't crank. It has been sitting for a few months as I've had to balance this project and school. I've switched out the battery for a new one, switched the starter relay, changed the ignition switch, and put in my fuel relay.

There is a video attached below.

I did have trouble starting the car in the past as sometimes Id have to press the key into the ignition to get it to crank, but now I have nothing. Notice how at the key on position my DIC doesn't turn on, so no odometer, and there is NO BULB CHECK, and no battery voltmeter or fuel level gauge. All my accessories (radio, windows, sunroof, wipers, washers were the ones I tested) are functional.
The only dash lights as you can see that turn on are my battery and engine lights. No stored engine codes either. What do you guys think this could be? I checked the two ignition fuses and they looked intact. You can see at the end of the video there is a humming that stops when I try to start the car (which was a thing I've experienced since I got the car and when it was functional), and the instrument cluster behavior changes slightly, but no crank.

Here is the video: New video by Zareef Huq

 

[mrrsm]

Without having peeked over your shoulder and watching whatever it was that YOU were doing during these efforts… Compare Your work to whatever THIS Dude did during his Unfortunate Failed 5.3L DOD Delete Experience and see if anything becomes obvious in your procedures that you might have missed:


Party 1:

Part 2:

Part 3:

Part 4:

Part 5:

Part 6:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cg9sTh1c6HQ

 

[Mooseman]

Off the bat, I would suspect the ignition switch or the power to it. Test the power input and output at the switch.

Another possibility is a broken trace in the fuse box, especially if you're not getting power at the switch.

 

[TJBaker57]

Check these yet?

Underhood fuseblock: PCM B fuse #10, TAC Fuse #23, IGN E fuse #22, PCM 1 Fuse #28, Crank Fuse.

Rear Undersear Fuseblock: IGN 0 Fuse #47

 

[TollKeeper]

I would start by jumping the relay at the under hood fuse panel. If you can jump the relay from one side to the other, that means at least it has the capability to send the signal to the starter..

We just went down this road recently on another vehicle, and it was the ignition switch was cammed incorrectly, by (I believe @movietvet) 1 tooth. Could yours be off by 3, 4, 5, or more? Anything is possible when working on these trucks as I have learned over the years. I think @movietvet even made a youtube video about this.

The post above by @TJBaker57 is a simple enough procedure, once you get that done, move on to the next..

So next place I would start is by pulling the ignition switch, and see if by turning the cam manually, if you get to a dash light check, or even a spot to start the truck. If you do, then it would be a matter of winding the ignition switch back, install, try, rinse and repeat, until its in the correct placement.

I also did a AFM/DOD delete on my Saab after I had a lifter failure. Did you do the cam/lifter replacement? Or just tune it out?

I opted for the tuning. I am sure there are failures out there, but I have yet to find anyone that has had a tune, and still had the lifter failure afterwards.

 

[TJBaker57]

Notice how at the key on position my DIC doesn't turn on, so no odometer, and there is NO BULB CHECK, and no battery voltmeter or fuel level gauge. All my accessories (radio, windows, sunroof, wipers, washers were the ones I tested) are functional.

I would also test for power at the ignition switch terminal wires in each of the key positions. New parts can be defective. It happens.

 

[movietvet]

Yes, I did a video of the ignition switch replacement and another about correcting the cam teeth placement when doing the ignition switch. Since the OP, @EnvoyMan, did change out the ignition switch in an attempt to fix the no crank problem, he may have installed the correct fix with the teeth of the cam not in the correct position right out of the parts box. I learned my lesson. If the OP watches my two videos he will see what I mean.

 

[TJBaker57]

Here is the trouble I see with the idea that the ignition switch is not properly indexed....

In the video in Post #1 it is seen that only the battery light and the check engine light illuminate. None of the remaining cluster displays are working. The PRND321 should also be on here.

Elsewhere on another website he mentions that the blower fan stops when the key is turned to the start position. (Here in post #1 he states the front wipers work which proves the ignition switch RUN circuit is working) This demonstrates that the indexing is close enough to break the Ignition switch terminal F to terminal G connection as it should when advanced from RUN to START. This means the indexing is very close.

And having the indexing off a bit would not prevent the cluster displays from working as they should when the key goes to the RUN position.

I would be interested in seeing if all the proper signals are getting to the BCM. As I understand it the BCM is the Power Mode Master and if it does not see the proper signals it does not send the instructions that cause the other vehicle modules to switch from sleep modes to wake and operating modes.

 

[movietvet]

I was not paying attention to the dash lights when I had my problem and perhaps I should have. I do know that the initial switch I removed on the very first attempt, was a grey bodied switch which meant that it was the updated switch. I installed my aftermarket SMP replacement switch with the gear teeth exactly matched and when it did start it was ok but in the video I was able to make it fail easily. I then moved the gear teeth one tooth on an ACD switch and then I was not able to make it fail and it has not failed to crank over since the ACD switch install.

 

[EnvoyMan]

Here is the trouble I see with the idea that the ignition switch is not properly indexed....

In the video in Post #1 it is seen that only the battery light and the check engine light illuminate. None of the remaining cluster displays are working. The PRND321 should also be on here.

Elsewhere on another website he mentions that the blower fan stops when the key is turned to the start position. (Here in post #1 he states the front wipers work which proves the ignition switch RUN circuit is working) This demonstrates that the indexing is close enough to break the Ignition switch terminal F to terminal G connection as it should when advanced from RUN to START. This means the indexing is very close.

And having the indexing off a bit would not prevent the cluster displays from working as they should when the key goes to the RUN position.

I would be interested in seeing if all the proper signals are getting to the BCM. As I understand it the BCM is the Power Mode Master and if it does not see the proper signals it does not send the instructions that cause the other vehicle modules to switch from sleep modes to wake and operating modes.

Hi, I'm not sure if this means anything but she will come to life for 2 seconds if I jump the starter relay. The shop told me the ecu is saying it's not registered to my car, but no security lights come on. How do I get it to like my car?

 

[TollKeeper]

All that means nothing until we can get all the lights on the cluster to light up. The tell tail lights will tell us if there is a security issue.

 

[EnvoyMan]

All that means nothing until we can get all the lights on the cluster to light up. The tell tail lights will tell us if there is a security issue.

Any idea what controls the ipc's bulb check? And are you suggesting I check my taillights as well?

 

[TollKeeper]

No, just the IPC. I am still of the opinion your ignition switch may be out of sequence.

 

[movietvet]

I have that video at you tube that explains the correct orientation of those cam teeth. It shows the wrong and the right way. I learned the hard way.

 

[TJBaker57]

FWIW, I am of the opinion that I have already seen enough proof that the ignition switch is correctly indexed.

If it were my truck (and if I did not know how to read the serial data to see the Power Moding Messages from the BCM) I would be checking the aforementioned fuses for 12 volt power in the appropriate key positions. In particular fuses 47 and 50 as well as 52 in the rear fuseblock. These should be powered after the key is turned to RUN.

By any chance did you disconnect the PCM connectors during the DoD delete? If yes then think about pulling connector 1 off and look for a broken, bent, or pushed-back pin/receiver, especially pin 75 which carries the IGN 0 signal from the ignition switch to the PCM.

 

[mrrsm]

Going back to "First Principles"...

Your mention of, "It has been sitting for a few months..." Means that during that hiatus, Deer Mice could have had the chance to set up shop under the hood and wreak havoc with their incessant need to gnaw on wiring and connectors while nest building, urinating and defecating while leaving all of these disgusting artifacts to be be seen (and NOT touched or inhaled without wearing an N-95 Quality Face Mask and also wearing a pair of 11 mil Nitrile Gloves).

Visit THIS link to see what this looks like under the hood of a Trailblazer suffering similar Weird Electrical Difficulties. Do NOT ignore the Warnings about exposure to the HANTA Virus carried by these Vermin or disregard the suggested precautions during all follow up inspections:

Under-Hood Vermin Infestation Issues

An off shoot of the many problems that the COVID-19 Corona Virus Pandemic brought along is the fact that many of our vehicles… NOT just the GMT-360s and GMT-400-800 Vehicles have had to be parked for longer than ordinary time frames. For some of us, depending upon the region of the countries...

gmtnation.com

Are rodents chewing on your GM vehicle's wiring?

https://gmauthority.com/blog/2022/01/are-rodents-chewing-up-the-wiring-in-your-general-motors-vehicle/ This one will be of particular interest to @MRRSM who brings this up on a regular basis. I guess GM never thought this one through. Yeah, let's make our wiring edible!

gmtnation.com

NOTE:

The Deer Mice are notorious for setting up shop UNDERNEATH the Protective Plastic Shroud and areas beneath and to the rear of the Fuse Box. Some Dis-Assembly will be required...

 

[Mooseman]

Any idea what controls the ipc's bulb check? And are you suggesting I check my taillights as well?

Just powering on when key is turned to Run will do that so I would suspect power is not getting to it and likely everything else required to start and run. Follow the suggestions above including carefully checking ALL fuses for power on both sides.

 

[TJBaker57]

It may be helpful to know that many of the modules in the vehicle, the BCM, IPC, DDM, PDM, LGM, etc., etc. have battery power at all times and don't wait for the key/ignition switch.

Indeed, as soon as you open the door the DDM, BCM, LGM, PDM, Radio, IPC, and others are all talking to each other even as the IPC appears to us to be turned off. The cluster is actually awake and communicating due to the DDM sending a bus wake up message and the BCM sending a network control/power moding message.

In my serial data recordings the PCM remains quiet until the key is just starting to turn and connects IGN switch terminal F to terminal E and signal power is applied to fuses 47 and 50 (rear fuseblock). At this instant the BCM sends two power moding messages and the PCM responds in milliseconds, sending a node awake message followed by a message indicating the transmission shift position which the cluster acknowledges. Mind you now, all this happens before the key even makes it to the ACC position and the displays are still dark!

 

[EnvoyMan]

No, just the IPC. I am still of the opinion your ignition switch may be out of sequence.

hi, sorry for the late response. I appreciate everyone's input and I couldn't get to anything because life stuff. I'm going to start to respond to replies starting here. It's with a mechanic that I'm communicating with every now and then and he replaced the ignition switch and double checked it was positioned correctly, and he still wasn't getting any ignition signal to even the cluster. He tried to do a manual gauge sweep with his scan tool and he couldn't get them to move.

 

[EnvoyMan]

FWIW, I am of the opinion that I have already seen enough proof that the ignition switch is correctly indexed.

If it were my truck (and if I did not know how to read the serial data to see the Power Moding Messages from the BCM) I would be checking the aforementioned fuses for 12 volt power in the appropriate key positions. In particular fuses 47 and 50 as well as 52 in the rear fuseblock. These should be powered after the key is turned to RUN.

By any chance did you disconnect the PCM connectors during the DoD delete? If yes then think about pulling connector 1 off and look for a broken, bent, or pushed-back pin/receiver, especially pin 75 which carries the IGN 0 signal from the ignition switch to the PCM.

I did not think of actually checking for power, despite the fuses looking good. I will communicate with him to see if he's already checked that. From what I understand, the run position is the last position before you turn to start the engine, correct? What should the next steps be IF he finds something wrong there? I may have incorrectly understood accessory to be the position before you start the engine. I can't see the car right now as I'm far from it.

I did disconnect the PCM to send it to PCM of NC to tune out AFM and tune it for my new mild cam. When I noticed the car wasn't behaving, I unplugged all connectors again and made sure none of the pins on the PCM looked funky, and I even sprayed them with contact cleaner as well as the connectors to give them the best chance I could. I had a friend disconnect their PCM fully and put the car in the RUN position, and their dash completely lit up minus the PRNDL screen.

 

[TJBaker57]

With the key in the ACC position test for 12 volt power at both sides of fuses 47 and 50 in the rear fuseblock under the seat.

 

[EnvoyMan]

Going back to "First Principles"...

Your mention of, "It has been sitting for a few months..." Means that during that hiatus, Deer Mice could have had the chance to set up shop under the hood and wreak havoc with their incessant need to gnaw on wiring and connectors while nest building, urinating and defecating while leaving all of these disgusting artifacts to be be seen (and NOT touched or inhaled without wearing an N-95 Quality Face Mask and also wearing a pair of 11 mil Nitrile Gloves).

Visit THIS link to see what this looks like under the hood of a Trailblazer suffering similar Weird Electrical Difficulties. Do NOT ignore the Warnings about exposure to the HANTA Virus carried by these Vermin or disregard the suggested precautions during all follow up inspections:

Under-Hood Vermin Infestation Issues

An off shoot of the many problems that the COVID-19 Corona Virus Pandemic brought along is the fact that many of our vehicles… NOT just the GMT-360s and GMT-400-800 Vehicles have had to be parked for longer than ordinary time frames. For some of us, depending upon the region of the countries...

gmtnation.com

Are rodents chewing on your GM vehicle's wiring?

https://gmauthority.com/blog/2022/01/are-rodents-chewing-up-the-wiring-in-your-general-motors-vehicle/ This one will be of particular interest to @MRRSM who brings this up on a regular basis. I guess GM never thought this one through. Yeah, let's make our wiring edible!

gmtnation.com

NOTE:

The Deer Mice are notorious for setting up shop UNDERNEATH the Protective Plastic Shroud and areas beneath and to the rear of the Fuse Box. Some Dis-Assembly will be required...

We don't really have a mice problem where my apartment is, and I was always digging around in the engine bay while it sat in order to delete all the DoD components, so I doubt any animals would try to make a home in there. I will say I found a lot of spider nests and some other things that didn't belong around my engine bay when I first disassembled the engine, so I suspect there were living things at some point when the previous owner had it. However, the car never had trouble powering things until after the DoD delete was complete. I didn't check if the IPC lit up properly in the run position while I was working on it as I everything I needed to work, worked in the accessory position (i.e. windows, radio, lights, which all still work).

 

[EnvoyMan]

Just powering on when key is turned to Run will do that so I would suspect power is not getting to it and likely everything else required to start and run. Follow the suggestions above including carefully checking ALL fuses for power on both sides.

I will let my mechanic know to check for power at the fuses in case he hasn't already. You are most likely correct, the last time we spoke he told me nothing is getting power out of the ignition switch and he can't make the gauges do anything with his fancy scan tool, leading him to believe power isn't getting to where they should be.

 

[EnvoyMan]

It may be helpful to know that many of the modules in the vehicle, the BCM, IPC, DDM, PDM, LGM, etc., etc. have battery power at all times and don't wait for the key/ignition switch.

Indeed, as soon as you open the door the DDM, BCM, LGM, PDM, Radio, IPC, and others are all talking to each other even as the IPC appears to us to be turned off. The cluster is actually awake and communicating due to the DDM sending a bus wake up message and the BCM sending a network control/power moding message.

In my serial data recordings the PCM remains quiet until the key is just starting to turn and connects IGN switch terminal F to terminal E and signal power is applied to fuses 47 and 50 (rear fuseblock). At this instant the BCM sends two power moding messages and the PCM responds in milliseconds, sending a node awake message followed by a message indicating the transmission shift position which the cluster acknowledges. Mind you now, all this happens before the key even makes it to the ACC position and the displays are still dark!

Are you suggesting my BCM is going bad? A lot of the functions I am able to test still work, such as windows, exterior lights, turn signals (which also light up on my IPC), power locks, and I know the liftgate window locks and unlocks when I open/close the hatch. However, since you and many others let me know the BCM and PCM talk to each other to allow me to start the car, I wonder if that's the broken link. Thank you for the communication path though, that was a really interesting piece of info. Could there even be a bad transmission neutral switch, despite me being able to jump the starter relay and run the engine for a couple seconds before it dies?

 

[TJBaker57]

From what I understand, the run position is the last position before you turn to start the engine, correct?

From the OFF position the first place the key "clicks" is the ACC position. The second place the key "clicks" is the RUN position.

To begin with, When the key is at the ACC position there should be 12 volts power at both sides of fuses 47, 50, 31, and 33 at the rear fuseblock.

 

[TJBaker57]

last time we spoke he told me nothing is getting power out of the ignition switch

You should know: The ignition switch has 2 power feeds and 5 different outputs that are connected and/or disconnected depending on what position the key is at. It is not a simple device.

 

[TJBaker57]

Are you suggesting my BCM is going bad? A lot of the functions I am able to test still work, such as windows, exterior lights, turn signals (which also light up on my IPC), power locks, and I know the liftgate window locks and unlocks when I open/close the hatch. However, since you and many others let me know the BCM and PCM talk to each other to allow me to start the car, I wonder if that's the broken link. Thank you for the communication path though, that was a really interesting piece of info. Could there even be a bad transmission neutral switch, despite me being able to jump the starter relay and run the engine for a couple seconds before it dies?

I am not suggesting the BCM is failing.

We need to hear what works and what doesn't at different key positions. Maybe not everything but a handful of examples helps a lot.

Here is a specific question: You mention the windows worked.... do the rear windows work up and down from the drivers door switch? Does it work when the key is first turned to ACC (maybe RUN) ?

I wouldn't look at things like the neutral safety switch/park neutral switch until the key position switch circuitry is checked out and you have a functioning Instrument Panel Cluster (IPC).

 

[mrrsm]

Tell Your Mechanic to "Raise the Lift Gate" and check the Wiring passing through the Upper Body into the Lift Gate through the Rubber Flex Boot and look for any Broken Wires. If there are any damaged inside there from Work Hardening and Breaking while Hidden inside of the individual Wire Insulation that will appear Okay... WEIRD Things like THIS No Start problem can occur since the LGM has a Class 2 Connection with Key-less Entry in some cases and IT communicates with the BCM, with Multiple Locking Components along with the Rear Electric Windshield Wiper set-up... all going on... all at once:

 

[movietvet]

Sure would like to see a pic of the gear teeth setting on the installed ignition switch. Is real easy to pull the switch, as you likely know.

 

[TJBaker57]

everything I needed to work, worked in the accessory position (i.e. windows, radio, lights, which all still work).

I reread some messages and discovered I overlooked a thing here. Your radio works. Why is that significant to me? The radio has NO switched power. It is powered always. Nothing from the ignition switch goes to the radio. So what makes it work when the key is turned and what makes it shut off like it does when the key is turned off and a door is opened? Power moding serial data messages from the BCM, that's what. That means the BCM IS sending out at least some power moding messages. Edit: The BCM sends out these messages in response to ignition switch position. Not sure what this means yet, it's late and I will think about it.

 

[EnvoyMan]

Tell Your Mechanic to "Raise the Lift Gate" and check the Wiring passing through the Upper Body into the Lift Gate through the Rubber Flex Boot and look for any Broken Wires. If there are any damaged inside there from Work Hardening and Breaking while Hidden inside of the individual Wire Insulation that will appear Okay... WEIRD Things like THIS No Start problem can occur since the LGM has a Class 2 Connection with Key-less Entry in some cases and IT communicates with the BCM, with Multiple Locking Components along with the Rear Electric Windshield Wiper set-up... all going on... all at once:

View attachment 108757View attachment 108758View attachment 108759View attachment 108760

You know! I’ve watched some videos on Class 2 failure and I was considering telling him to check that. Even if those wires are broken would I still be able to hear the locks on the lift gate working? My rear wiper and washer work as well. I’ll tell him to check it out regardless. That lift gate saw a LOT of opening and closing when I was working on the DoD delete.

 

[EnvoyMan]

I am not suggesting the BCM is failing.

We need to hear what works and what doesn't at different key positions. Maybe not everything but a handful of examples helps a lot.

Here is a specific question: You mention the windows worked.... do the rear windows work up and down from the drivers door switch? Does it work when the key is first turned to ACC (maybe RUN) ?

I wouldn't look at things like the neutral safety switch/park neutral switch until the key position switch circuitry is checked out and you have a functioning Instrument Panel Cluster (IPC).

The windows did work with the key in the RUN position. By rear windows, do you mean the windows for the 2nd row, or do you mean the tiny windows in the 3rd row that crack open a little? I know for sure the 4 main windows plus the sunroof minus the tiny ones work in the RUN position, all using the driver door switches and the sunroof switch.

 

[EnvoyMan]

Sure would like to see a pic of the gear teeth setting on the installed ignition switch. Is real easy to pull the switch, as you likely know.

I don't have the car with me at the moment, but I am positive it was indexed correctly as the few things that did work, worked at the appropriate key positions. Namely, in the start position, I can hear the blower turn off like it's supposed to when starting the car. And in the RUN position my radio screen turns on and my chime goes off. The chime's tempo also changes at various positions, like if I leave the key in at the farthest back position with the door open, the chime tempo is the fastest.

 

[EnvoyMan]

I reread some messages and discovered I overlooked a thing here. Your radio works. Why is that significant to me? The radio has NO switched power. It is powered always. Nothing from the ignition switch goes to the radio. So what makes it work when the key is turned and what makes it shut off like it does when the key is turned off and a door is opened? Power moding serial data messages from the BCM, that's what. That means the BCM IS sending out at least some power moding messages. Edit: The BCM sends out these messages in response to ignition switch position. Not sure what this means yet, it's late and I will think about it.

That's what I found annoying about the radio, with it having power at all times. It likes to grab my phone's bluetooth connection while I'm trying to listen to music on my headphones while I work. Even putting the key back in the accessory position doesn't turn the radio completely off, just the screen turns off, likely due to RAP. It is aftermarket, but I've used a really well known harness kit (PAC RP5 with the updated blue box) and I soldered all the harness bits and heatshrunk over them. I use the famous ATOTO budget carplay radio. I will say, the car definitely started fine even after I installed the radio.
I'm not sure if I mentioned this before, but my HVAC panel does not light up at all including the screen, and pressing the buttons on it does nothing. Let me know what you figure out about the BCM's behavior!

 

[movietvet]

I don't have the car with me at the moment, but I am positive it was indexed correctly as the few things that did work, worked at the appropriate key positions. Namely, in the start position, I can hear the blower turn off like it's supposed to when starting the car. And in the RUN position my radio screen turns on and my chime goes off. The chime's tempo also changes at various positions, like if I leave the key in at the farthest back position with the door open, the chime tempo is the fastest.

When I installed my switch, one tooth off, everything worked except for the very intermittent no crank problem or was cranking and then would stop cranking.

 

[TJBaker57]

know for sure the 4 main windows plus the sunroof minus the tiny ones work in the RUN position, all using the driver door switches and the sunroof switch.

Some may wonder why I ask such seemingly off the wall questions. While they may not seem to matter the answers hold clues. The operation of the rear windows (just behind the driver, not the rearmost) is in the realm of the BCM. It is the BCM that powers these windows down and up in response to the class II serial data messages sent from the DDM. So the fact that these windows operate is further evidence of 2 things. The Class II data system is working and also the BCM is working.

 

[mrrsm]

Do you have ANY Aftermarket Components installed? New Radio..?. HUD...? Remote Start or Security System? Has anyone messed around with the Under-Dash Wiring?

 

[Mooseman]

He did say he has an ATOTO aftermarket radio.

Just going back to the ignition switch, was the power inputs and outputs checked? It may have been covered but I'm getting the sense that the switch is not working right. Just because it's new doesn't mean it's good.

This video shows how to check it. (cued to start of testing)

 

[EnvoyMan]

Some may wonder why I ask such seemingly off the wall questions. While they may not seem to matter the answers hold clues. The operation of the rear windows (just behind the driver, not the rearmost) is in the realm of the BCM. It is the BCM that powers these windows down and up in response to the class II serial data messages sent from the DDM. So the fact that these windows operate is further evidence of 2 things. The Class II data system is working and also the BCM is working.

Hi, my mechanic just sent me an update. He could communicate with all the modules and he was able to finally do a manual gauge sweep on the instrument cluster and make it light up. He let me know all the modules that he talked to are giving him a "U" code for the PCM, meaning that they can't communicate with it. He also sent me this screenshot showing that his scan tool can see all modules in my car, except for one "Unknown" module, and the PCM is missing from the list of modules. I did have my PCM sent in to get tuned by PCM of NC, who seemed to have a good rep. Is it time to send it back? They already gave me a label a while back when I first started running into this no crank issue to send it back to them. Could the PCM still be at fault even though I could start the car briefly by jumping the starter relay? He will check for power and grounds at the PCM next while I try to decide what I should do here.

 

[EnvoyMan]

When I installed my switch, one tooth off, everything worked except for the very intermittent no crank problem or was cranking and then would stop cranking.

I think I did see your video showing this issue on your switch. I didn't have any intermittent starting problems, I had absolutely nothing going on no matter how many times I turned the key on/off.