Hi, I need help. I have a 2009 2.5L Jetta with 121k miles and I got the P0016 code. I’m using the car daily because it drives fine above 1.3k rpm so i guess it doesn’t damage the engine that much. But it has a difficulty to start, ‘stuttering’ and when I cold start it, the rmps go up and down many times. The check engine light is always on and when i erase it it doesn’t reappear until a shut down the car and start it again (so it doesn’t light up why driving). So I suppose the problem is at the starting. Me and my friend we cleaned up the VVT solenoid (N205) with MAF cleaner and we tested it by passing current through it. we saw valves open and close so we suppose that it should be working. How can I verify if my sensors aka cam/crank shaft without having to replace it. (I’m on budget lol) And what can you suggest me to verify next? (I also heard that it can be a problem with the camshaft phaser)
VW p0016 keeps returning
- Thread starter Bogdan Sokol
- Start date
How'd you wind up on a General Motors & GMC GMT360-GMT800 Site...?
https://vwtuning.co/p0016-vw-audi-fault-code/
https://vwtuning.co/p0016-vw-audi-fault-code/
Last edited:
I looked by the P0016 code and it sent me here lol and I thought that it is a general problem that could happen with any car.
Well... Generically Speaking... Regardless of the Engine Source of Manufacture ... The PCM-ECM needs to be assured that the Intake and Exhaust Camshaft Position Sensors are reading coincidental in THEIR Positions WITH the Crankshaft Position within the proper number of Degrees out of a 360 Radial (Actually ...720 Degrees to cover All Four Strokes) with a Focus being on the Piston inside of the #1 Cylinder, when it is located ...Just BTDC (Before Top Dead Center).
If the Two (or sometimes 4) Camshaft(s) are OUT OF POSITION ...AND the Valves have NOT Completely Closed on the Compression Stroke... AND if the Fuel Injectors Don't Spray at Just the Right Time ...AND if the Spark Timing is Off TOO Much or NOT happening JUST before the Piston is finishing its Fuel and Air SQUEEZE... Then when the Spark Plug finally FIRES, there will be an insufficient amount of Compression and Explosive Burn to develop enough POWER to Force the Piston(s) down in their Proper 4 Stroke Sequence.
Here is the Hidden Danger...> S-t-r-e-t-c-h-e-d... Timing Chains (or perhaps Slipped and Worn Timing Belts with Missing Cog Segments in some of the Subaru, Audi and Volkswagen Horizontal Engines) will cause such a Serious Misalignment as to Risk a Very Catastrophic Result on what we call "Interference Engines" and thus... The Motor Might *GRENADE* (If the "Valves Kiss The Pistons"...) Then Uh-Oh. THAT is an Expensive "BUY, BUY Motor" Problem (if you know what I mean... $$$).
But... Let's Diagnose What MIGHT Have Happened BEFORE any such a Disaster Occurs:
After Obtaining a 2009 Factory VW OEM Service Shop Manual and if necessary, Changing out BOTH the Intake and Exhaust Camshaft (CPS) Sensors FIRST, My Next Favorite Method to Investigate this possible problem is to Use a Two Channel Oscilloscope as follows:
(1) Back Probe the Signal Wire on the Errant (CPS) Camshaft Position Sensor on Channel 1 of the "O" Scope.
(2) Back Probe the Signal Wire of the (CKP) Crankshaft Position Sensor on Channel 2 of the "O" Scope.
(3) With the Engine at Idle, Align the (CPS) Square Wave Form up on the "O" Scope Screen such that the "Break" (AKA - Top Dead Center Notch) in the (CKP) Sine Wave Signal is in very close proximity to the (CPS) image On Screen. (Set your Scope *Trigger* on the Rising Edge of the (CKP) so that the "Break" (Missing Two Teeth) is showing the TDC of the #1 Piston. Knowing this will allow you to check its Position by Degrees against a "Known Good Crankshaft (Sine Wave) to Camshaft (Square Wave) Wave Form" ...Which is probably available to you somewhere over on some other Volkswagen Repair Forum.
(4) The Tolerance for having a ..."S-T-R-E-T-C-H-E-D" ... Timing Chain or a Slipped Timing Belt will be TINY... like maybe 2-3 Degrees before the Motor is in REAL Danger of having the "Interference" Problems that will risk Engine Damage or Destruction.
(5) Just Know that in some of the GM and GMC Engines, they use a 58 Tooth Reluctor Wheel (60 -2) vs. a (CKP) Sensor mounted in the Block that creates its OWN A/C Sine Wave as the Teeth of the Reluctor Wheel orbit around on the Crankshaft, right under the Magnetic Pick-Up of the (CKP). This is arranged so that the #1 Cylinder has a "Break" in the regular Teeth and this represents 12 Degrees of movement due to the absence of Just Two Teeth. Consider that the other individual (CKP) Sine Waves represent 6 Degrees of movement in the Radial if you Divide 360 Degrees by 60.
(6) Your Volkswagen may be using a Different Tooth Count on its Reluctor Wheel, but once you know what that is, You can just Divide THAT number into 360 Degrees... so when You see that "Break" point on Screen... You will know WHERE TDC for the #1 Cylinder is...and make your on screen measurement differences versus WHERE the Camshaft Square Wave winds up and COUNT the number of (CKP) Sine Waves in between to figure out if You have a Stretched Chain, Damaged or Failed Timing Chain or Belt Tensioner(s) or any Damaged Chain Guides inside the Motor.
(7) You MAY have to perform this same Test on the Intake AND Exhaust Camshafts if your Motor has TWO Camshaft Position Sensors.
(8) By comparing a "Known Good (CPS) vs. (CKP) Wave Form" Image versus whatever the Oscilloscope Screen shows You...THIS will determine (by Counting the EXTRA (CKP) Sine Waves) just How Far Off The Timing happens to be. If THIS exceeds the VW Engine Specs Limits... then you are in for a Major Repair by way of the Timing Chain Set Replacement Swap, which probably means replacing ALL of the associated Pulleys, Guides, Tensioners, Cogs, Chains (Belts?), etc. and of course... Please Know... THIS is NOT a Trivial Repair.
(9) Please visit "Mechanical Mindset" over on his YouTube Channel, since as a "Brit" he has a LOT more experience with using and explaining Oscilloscopes when Diagnosing Foreign Makes and Models:
(10) I'm Sorry that this sort of stuff can become so very *Technical* ... But there is no other way to be as certain of Identifying THIS problem and at least now you have a Better Idea (Warts & All) of What the DIAGNOSTIC THINKING is behind using an Oscilloscope when so much is at stake.
If the Two (or sometimes 4) Camshaft(s) are OUT OF POSITION ...AND the Valves have NOT Completely Closed on the Compression Stroke... AND if the Fuel Injectors Don't Spray at Just the Right Time ...AND if the Spark Timing is Off TOO Much or NOT happening JUST before the Piston is finishing its Fuel and Air SQUEEZE... Then when the Spark Plug finally FIRES, there will be an insufficient amount of Compression and Explosive Burn to develop enough POWER to Force the Piston(s) down in their Proper 4 Stroke Sequence.
Here is the Hidden Danger...> S-t-r-e-t-c-h-e-d... Timing Chains (or perhaps Slipped and Worn Timing Belts with Missing Cog Segments in some of the Subaru, Audi and Volkswagen Horizontal Engines) will cause such a Serious Misalignment as to Risk a Very Catastrophic Result on what we call "Interference Engines" and thus... The Motor Might *GRENADE* (If the "Valves Kiss The Pistons"...) Then Uh-Oh. THAT is an Expensive "BUY, BUY Motor" Problem (if you know what I mean... $$$).
But... Let's Diagnose What MIGHT Have Happened BEFORE any such a Disaster Occurs:
After Obtaining a 2009 Factory VW OEM Service Shop Manual and if necessary, Changing out BOTH the Intake and Exhaust Camshaft (CPS) Sensors FIRST, My Next Favorite Method to Investigate this possible problem is to Use a Two Channel Oscilloscope as follows:
(1) Back Probe the Signal Wire on the Errant (CPS) Camshaft Position Sensor on Channel 1 of the "O" Scope.
(2) Back Probe the Signal Wire of the (CKP) Crankshaft Position Sensor on Channel 2 of the "O" Scope.
(3) With the Engine at Idle, Align the (CPS) Square Wave Form up on the "O" Scope Screen such that the "Break" (AKA - Top Dead Center Notch) in the (CKP) Sine Wave Signal is in very close proximity to the (CPS) image On Screen. (Set your Scope *Trigger* on the Rising Edge of the (CKP) so that the "Break" (Missing Two Teeth) is showing the TDC of the #1 Piston. Knowing this will allow you to check its Position by Degrees against a "Known Good Crankshaft (Sine Wave) to Camshaft (Square Wave) Wave Form" ...Which is probably available to you somewhere over on some other Volkswagen Repair Forum.
(4) The Tolerance for having a ..."S-T-R-E-T-C-H-E-D" ... Timing Chain or a Slipped Timing Belt will be TINY... like maybe 2-3 Degrees before the Motor is in REAL Danger of having the "Interference" Problems that will risk Engine Damage or Destruction.
(5) Just Know that in some of the GM and GMC Engines, they use a 58 Tooth Reluctor Wheel (60 -2) vs. a (CKP) Sensor mounted in the Block that creates its OWN A/C Sine Wave as the Teeth of the Reluctor Wheel orbit around on the Crankshaft, right under the Magnetic Pick-Up of the (CKP). This is arranged so that the #1 Cylinder has a "Break" in the regular Teeth and this represents 12 Degrees of movement due to the absence of Just Two Teeth. Consider that the other individual (CKP) Sine Waves represent 6 Degrees of movement in the Radial if you Divide 360 Degrees by 60.
(6) Your Volkswagen may be using a Different Tooth Count on its Reluctor Wheel, but once you know what that is, You can just Divide THAT number into 360 Degrees... so when You see that "Break" point on Screen... You will know WHERE TDC for the #1 Cylinder is...and make your on screen measurement differences versus WHERE the Camshaft Square Wave winds up and COUNT the number of (CKP) Sine Waves in between to figure out if You have a Stretched Chain, Damaged or Failed Timing Chain or Belt Tensioner(s) or any Damaged Chain Guides inside the Motor.
(7) You MAY have to perform this same Test on the Intake AND Exhaust Camshafts if your Motor has TWO Camshaft Position Sensors.
(8) By comparing a "Known Good (CPS) vs. (CKP) Wave Form" Image versus whatever the Oscilloscope Screen shows You...THIS will determine (by Counting the EXTRA (CKP) Sine Waves) just How Far Off The Timing happens to be. If THIS exceeds the VW Engine Specs Limits... then you are in for a Major Repair by way of the Timing Chain Set Replacement Swap, which probably means replacing ALL of the associated Pulleys, Guides, Tensioners, Cogs, Chains (Belts?), etc. and of course... Please Know... THIS is NOT a Trivial Repair.
(9) Please visit "Mechanical Mindset" over on his YouTube Channel, since as a "Brit" he has a LOT more experience with using and explaining Oscilloscopes when Diagnosing Foreign Makes and Models:
(10) I'm Sorry that this sort of stuff can become so very *Technical* ... But there is no other way to be as certain of Identifying THIS problem and at least now you have a Better Idea (Warts & All) of What the DIAGNOSTIC THINKING is behind using an Oscilloscope when so much is at stake.
Last edited:
Mooseman
Moderator
Chickenhawk
Member
- Dec 6, 2011
- 782
The VW engine has a VVT system similar to ours, which means it also requires clean engine oil. If you suspect that oil changes have not been done regularly, or the vehicle has been sitting around a lot lately, here is something to try. Change the oil three times in the next month. Get some cheap filters and cheap 5W-30 oil and change it. Run it for a few days and change it again. A week later, change it again to Mobil 1 5W-30 and a good filter and see if there is a difference. Then change out the Mobil 1 at about half the recommended mileage for Mobil 1 and a good filter again.
Some people have found an engine flush has been useful, but few knowledgeable people recommend it. Plus, it can dislodge sludge that will block your oil pickup tube.
I had good results (not perfect) with that code by adding a can of SeaFoam for 400 km; changing the oil three times at very short intervals over the next month and finally ending with Mobil 1 synthetic. I still get the code, but only on very cold starts now, and it goes away quickly.
My vehicle had been sitting around a lot the past few years. I changed the VVT actuator and the camshaft position sensor, but had the best luck with the frequent oil changes. If it is a timing chain issue, you will have no results, but if it's a build up of sludge on the internal VVT parts, it's worth a try.
Some people have found an engine flush has been useful, but few knowledgeable people recommend it. Plus, it can dislodge sludge that will block your oil pickup tube.
I had good results (not perfect) with that code by adding a can of SeaFoam for 400 km; changing the oil three times at very short intervals over the next month and finally ending with Mobil 1 synthetic. I still get the code, but only on very cold starts now, and it goes away quickly.
My vehicle had been sitting around a lot the past few years. I changed the VVT actuator and the camshaft position sensor, but had the best luck with the frequent oil changes. If it is a timing chain issue, you will have no results, but if it's a build up of sludge on the internal VVT parts, it's worth a try.
Mooseman
Moderator
For future reference (should the OP ever return again...) since I elaborated in Post #6 so much on the Use of an Oscilloscope for Diagnosing P0016 - P0017 Engine Codes, it should be comforting to see and hear Eric "O" from SMA (South Main Auto) up in Avica, NY providing THIS very same example in his Lecture to Automotive Repair Shop Owners and other, serious minded Car & Truck Owners by answering THIS critical Question:
"Do I NEED a Lab Scope in My Shop?"
THIS particular Video forms an Excellent Baseline that includes his Reasoning for Relying upon using his Oscilloscope ahead of just diving into a motor to look for Possible Broken Parts and Bad Sensors in ways that would commit his Shop to bearing all of these expenses for "Making A Bad Call" if he later found out that performing all that additional Labor while invoking "The Parts and Gaskets Fireworks" expenses required... was completely unnecessary.
...and for anyone interested in obtaining additional insights and training data, please visit THIS Link to delve further into the use of inexpensive Oscilloscopes for Auto Diagnostics.
gmtnation.com
"Do I NEED a Lab Scope in My Shop?"
THIS particular Video forms an Excellent Baseline that includes his Reasoning for Relying upon using his Oscilloscope ahead of just diving into a motor to look for Possible Broken Parts and Bad Sensors in ways that would commit his Shop to bearing all of these expenses for "Making A Bad Call" if he later found out that performing all that additional Labor while invoking "The Parts and Gaskets Fireworks" expenses required... was completely unnecessary.
...and for anyone interested in obtaining additional insights and training data, please visit THIS Link to delve further into the use of inexpensive Oscilloscopes for Auto Diagnostics.
How To Use PICO #2204A & HANTEK #1008C Oscilloscopes
You don't need a Huge Bag of Coins in order to obtain and use an Oscilloscope for performing In-Depth Wave Form Analysis in Automotive Applications on everything from Problematic Electronic Fuel Injection to obtaining accurate Compression Tests to Diagnose Internal Engine Conditions. HANTEK...
gmtnation.com
Last edited: