The $85,000.00 GM 4.2L Engine Repair

[mrrsm]

You may never decide to take the plunge or the “A Leap of Faith” over the edge of the Engine Repair Cliff; Tool Bag in one hand and your Shop Manual in the other… but no matter… you still might want to pay very close attention to what follows. It might save your engine from passing you by on the way down and heading Straight to Engine Hell.

Most of you know that where lubrication of any engine parts are concerned, I take this topic to be The Most Serious Issue a Mechanic Faces. Without using the Right Lubrication in the Right Way on the Right Parts at the Right Time… the Best Work that We will EVER Do… Will Amount to NOTHING… without LUBRICATION. Many years ago, the Big Three in American Automotive Engineering decided that rather than forging and treating the mixes of the Metal Alchemy in Alloys and by virtue of how they machined parts that make up the Rotary Assemblies common to all Engines and Transmissions…

They went CHEAP on us ...and put the responsibility for “Metal Hardening and Conditioning” of those assemblies… squarely on the shoulders of the Oil Industry. In many cases… due in part to the presence of additives like Acid Treatments, Phosphates and ZDDP (ZINC-Di-Dithio-Phosphate) the Brand New Engines would have a fighting chance, as long as the Engines were properly pre-oiled and run up to at least 2,000 RPM without stopping for 25-30 minutes… for a proper conditioning of the camshaft lobes and hydraulic lifters to “toughen them up” as the Zinc Phosphates were driven… hammer-and-forging into the surfaces of these components, imparting hardness, durability and resistance to wear that would last the life of the engine.

However… many of these motors were assembled for later installation and after being loaded on wooden palettes and stored in warehouses… sitting dormant for extended periods of time, all of the oil left inside the galleys and on the vertical surfaces of the engine would cascade down into the Oil Pans of all these Sleeping Brand New Engines, losing vital protection in the process. Adding to this problem was that even if the engines were destined for installation shortly after being shipped… they too would be naked of their prior protection because the vibration these motors experienced in transport; mostly on Trains and on Trucks… shaking and disturbing their coatings of oil so much that they TOO would be naked inside of oil and all become disasters of engine failure ...just waiting to happen.

And so now we come to the events themselves where Trained Technicians followed the manuals, installed Brand New Oil Filters and the adequate number of quarts of oil and vehicles would be sold to unwitting customers who experienced engine failure after failure and because the customer of any purchase of a brand new car MUST be doing something wrong… it took a while for the truth to emerge that made the auto industry employ drastic changes in their procedures for engine preparation prior to selling these vehicles:

PRE-OIL EACH AND EVERY MOTOR ...PRIOR TO STARTING UP ANY ENGINE…

Now there were a number of common-sense methods to achieve this involving all manner of instrumentation being stuffed down inside the distributor holes after they were first removed. Then, after topping off the oil… a common Electric Drill would spin an Oil Priming Tool mated to mechanical oil pumps that are ordinarily driven by the engine camshaft helical gear. It would take a few minutes to hear the drill labour as the oil pumps sucked up the oil from the pan and laboriously pushed the dense fluid through every nook and cranny until the Service Techs could see of motor oil dripping over the edges of all the rocker arms. At that point, they could all feel confident of not having what became know as “Dry Starts” responsible for putting 50,000 miles of wear on the internals of brand new motor in a matter of minutes and almost make a groaning guarantee of failure in very short order.

This is all very fascinating to you...I'm sure ...but without knowing this history...we have no context for comparison to why this procedure is not only not done any more…. It is impossible to do on late model engines...because the Gerotor Oil Pump; The Rage of Modern Engine Lubrication...as it should be...but conversely...these pumps are buried deep inside of our engines...and are essentially inaccessible to us.

“So Bobby… What do we do...and since we have owned and driven our TBs already... why should we worry about it now?” (Please Watch the Video...and read on)

http://www.enginelabs.com/news/video-building-a-homemade-ls-pre-oiler/

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If you experience any extended period where your vehicles sit dormant in your driveways, just as mine has for nearly the Last Two Years… then Pre-Oiling these delicate internals with close tolerances MUST be your first consideration. And the BEST way to do this is to find an accessible Oil Galley that is NOT buried inaccessibly while the engine is NOT completely re-assembled...and long before that final bolt is torqued… Pre-Oiling the Engine by means of Metal Cylinder filled with Engine Assembly Lube, Royal Purple Engine Break-In Oil...or Valvoline Racing Oil along with metal protecting goodies...will be EASY!

And by using controlled Air Pressure just as the Original Video Poster did, you can pressurize the lubricants to fill up the all the Bone Dry spaces: BUT NEVER USE A CYLINDER MADE OF PVC… Unless being killed appeals to you. I have decided the least expensive and safest device to modify and use is a 400 PSI Test Proofed HVAC Recovery Cylinder. You can purchase these via eBay for $87.00 with Free S&H. Nothing needs to be modified internally to this tank You'll just need a few inexpensive air lines, an air pressure gauge and the right hose adapter and fittings to thread into an Oil Galley Port. Please watch the video, knowing that regardless of which oil port you choose, since liquids are incompressible, they will push out the remaining air and after pre-lubing the whole engine, the remaining oil will eventually fill up the crankcase if enough has been put into the Recovery Cylinder prior to beginning.

 

[mrrsm]

(...segue...) I wanted to also provide some alternatives for anyone who shies away from working with these intimidating Compressed Gas Cylinders...no matter how safe they may be... and choose from an array of alternative methods to do this very straightforward procedure... albeit, with something from a decent choice of similar apparatus that are External, 12 Volt Electrical and Manual Oil and Diesel Fuel Pumps (the latter may require tedious and time consuming "Hand Cranking" to transfer pressurized oil into every space within reach of the Internal Oil Galleys).

All of these are readily available on eBay and run the price gamut from $20.00 to $50.00. These will not come with the requisite line adapters and hoses but those too can be found in both Male and Female genders elsewhere on eBay. It is important to stress that of all the most critical things to do before firing up this engine... THIS WILL BE THE EASIEST JOB FOR YOU TO COMPLETE... EVER and can be used in other circumstances where Pre-Oiling the engine is an absolute necessity... without have to turn more than one wrench to remove and install the Engine Drain Plug... when no other maintenance or repairs are in order!

If used in this regard... It would necessary to (1) First Drain your Old Oil...and...(2) Fill up and Install a Brand New Oil Filter with the same concoction or recipe of Oils and Additives... as it will be necessary for NO AIR TO BE TRAPPED ADJACENT THE INITIAL PUMPING LOCATION AND SINCE LIQUIDS ARE INCOMPRESSIBLE...DOING THIS PROCEDURE SLOOOOOOWWWLLLY WILL PREVENT THE OIL FILTER FROM BECOMING COMPRESSED ENOUGH TO EXPLODE OFF OF THE ENGINE BLOCK.

You MUST give this process TIME to slowly move the Oil Stream through the Engine Block and not become so quickly Over-Pressurized beyond 65 PSI as to Crack the Oil Galleys open like a Walnut and wind up Destroying the Engine! This procedure will require your immediate attendance ..and undivided attention at all times during the process... Pressurized Liquids are UNFORGIVING IN THEIR POWER!

It will be a good idea to Remove the Oil Pressure Sensor and install an Analog Oil Pressure Gauge and monitor How Much Pressure is being Applied moment by moment.

Access to an Oil Galley on the LL8 Engine can be made at the very front Lower Passenger side Oil Filter Mounting Manifold...in line with the Front Edge of the Timing Cover. It is installed and removed with a large Hex Wrench at this very location:

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...and here are the many and varied kind of Oil Pumps to choose from and adapt to this situation:

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[mrrsm]

There has been a Bizarre Plot Twist to the story that happened earlier this evening when...for reasons that at the moment escape me as to why I did this... but for some strange and impulsive purpose... I decided to search on eBay using just a simple search string expression:

Trailblazer LL8 Engine...

And low and behold ...the very first entry that came up was for a Complete Engine out of recently wrecked 2004 White Chevrolet Trailblazer LS... that the Seller had just reduced in price by a Skosh less than $300.00. I was so surprised after looking over all of the images that I posted in my initial request to determine what if any modifications would be necessary to convert that engine to work in my son's 2002 Trailblazer. And then I waited...

Nothing.
Silence....
Crickets...

And then... I heard loud...uncontrolled nervous laughter... But it was coming from ME... that was when I suddenly realized that if I did not "Get off the Schneid" ... I might lose this rare opportunity to some very busy Lurkers who read my post...put 2 and 2 together... and then decided to surreptitiously drop in on the eBay and "snype" the Engine right out from under me.

But thankfully... while they were trying to "catch up on their reading" and peruse the digital images for details that I had already gleaned.. I pulled the trigger and made the purchase. Everything about this circumstance has almost too much Perfect Timing... but for a few minutes before or after these things contracted into a "Perfect Storm" of my needs meeting head on with a perfect solution for them... I would have missed the Train at the Station.

But having said all of this... my purpose for this particular post is to assure everyone that when the R&R of the Original Engine for the "Swap-n-Drop-In" 2004 Trailblazer LL8 is complete and the SUV is on the street again... I will return to completing what we started on back in October of 2015... and ...I will be using all of the things we discovered along the way to 'Freshen Up" the Replacement Engine and solve many of the almost impossible repairs and updates that can't be done at all...once the Engine is "Buttoned up Under the Bonnet". I'll be starting a new Post on this matter to "Separate The Baby from The Bath Water". and Document and photograph every step of the way ... If the work "cross-pollinates " with the $85K Repair... I will either drop a line here on the original topic where it all began...or link it back to this First Chapter of "How to R&R a 2002 GM Atlas LL8 for a 2004 LL8 of the 4.2L Engines".

http://gmtnation.com/forums/threads/are-the-02-04-atlas-engines-fully-interchangeabe.15677/

 

[Mooseman]

Two questions for you sir...

1. Why buy another engine? You had already invested, well, over $85k in this one, so what gives?

2. So after dropping in the other replacement engine, what will you do with this one? Sell it? May be difficult if it can't be tested running.

 

[mrrsm]

Let's just say for now that I have some medical issues to deal with that are forcing me to "push my time limit" up as quickly as I can and move the R&R onto the Front Burner so I can get things done while I am still able to do so. Between me and this Trailblazer... Its personal...

 

[Mooseman]

No prob bro. With all that you did to this point, I was a little perplexed to this sudden left turn.

 

[mrrsm]

I have had to reflect on how relatively inexpensive this engine was to acquire with Free Freight and apparently in better shape than I would have ordinarily expected. I also had to give a great deal of credence to the Calculus that right now... BOTH of these engines are in very similar conditions of disassembly. I also had to face the serious reality of what the difference means in the Wear and Tear that the present 2002 motor has endured for the additional 100,000 +miles of hard use when compared to the 2004 Donor Engine and what that might mean in comparison for any expected improvements in longevity and endurance.

And last but certainly not least, since I have NOT installed most of the Brand New Ancillary Hardware and Accessories... mounting them on this "New USED" LL8 while it is conveniently more accessible on an Engine Stand for a thorough Engine Prep and while bringing to bear ALL of the experiences that we ( Mostly courtesy of -> @Mooseman ) have shared up to now, should make for an engine that has the following additions PRIOR to being installed inside of the '02 TB:

(1) New Delphi VVT Cam Phaser and Intake Timing Chain Sprockets
(2) New CPAS Solenoid and CPS Sensor
(3) New OEM Timing Chain Set: Chain, [3] Chain Guides & Tensioner [COMPLETE]
(4) New OEM Updated Gerotor Oil Pump and Flushed out Pick Up Tube with Updated Seal
(5) New OEM Water Pump and Gasket
(6) Complete Examination and Clean up of Bottom End
(7) R&R and Replacement of Cleaned and Prepped Crankcase- Oil Pan
(8) R&R of Rear Large Crankshaft Take Off Seal
(9) Complete Top End De-Carbonizing
(10) R&R of Intake Manifold and Replacement of "O" Rings
(11) R&R Electronic Throttle Body
(12) R&R OEM AC-Delco Spark Plugs and Coil On Plugs
(14) R&R OEM Fuel Injectors
(15) And much more of course... that I simply cannot think of at the moment.

Nothing that we have already attempted and worked on and experienced here at GMT Nation will EVER be wasted. In fact... It is those very experiences which will be giving us so much insight and anticipation of how to avoid many other problems and entanglements that are caused when having to do major repairs on any engines that are nested inside of any vehicles.

I have contacted Heritage Used Car Parts and Truck Parts over in Mobile, AL and worked out the details for the delivery and pick up of the motor over in Tampa in a just a few days. They are parting out the rest of the 2004 Trailblazer for anyone interested. In the mean time, I am debating whether or not to remove the Old Engine WITH the Transmission still attached if that makes more sense and if it does not require any additional extravagant activities and what methods are necessary to accomplish this... I would appreciate and benefit from any Member Advice on this matter and how best to accomplish the task.

 

[Mooseman]

(9) Complete Top End De-Carbonizing

Would this mean you would be taking the head off the "new" engine? I would cringe at the thought, even on an engine stand.

 

[mrrsm]

Nope... Remember your suggestion about the KLEEN Spray that worked out so well on the $85K Block? With the '04 engine mounted on a Engine Stand and Two Cans of the American Flavour of the stuff... I would just need to bring each piston up to TDC and fill it up for about 30 minutes of soaking and then vacuum the stuff out... or perhaps I can just fill up each cylinder... one at a time on the compression stroke and after reinstalling the spark plug(s).. invert the engine on the stand for about 30 minutes and allow the stuff to soak real well and then pull the spark plug and let it drain out. After that a quick check with the 9MM Ultra Mini-Cam would reveal how it worked. I still would like to install the New Head on the 2002 Engine...but first I need to saddle up this '04.

Any thoughts on pulling the Engine & Transmission as one unit? What needs doing to ease the pain of doing it that way?

 

[Mooseman]

I couldn't tell you since I pulled the engine by itself. You would have to pull the transfer case and it's a bitch to put on by yourself. To get at the bellhousing bolts, I had to drop both the tranny and engine onto the crossmembers after removing the mounts.

 

[mrrsm]

This 2002 TB is strictly a RWD...

And now that I think about it...Since the Engine Head and Hoist Bracket are NOT installed on the '02 Engine at the moment... This Video Procedure seems promising... using Four Used Head Bolts (Hopefully ...in Good Condition and NOT in Danger of Breaking due to the Stress of Removal) Holding the weight of the "Headless Motor with Rotating Assembly"...ripe for "Cherry-Picking:

And here is an Engine Swap involving a 2002 Envoy 4.2L ....If Only the OP would STFU and GET ON WITH IT!:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mkLVcm9k6n0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X6eqTSsJiOw

 

[Mooseman]

Your truck is in the very small minority as a 2wd which in your case is a blessing.

I'm undecided on voting to pulling it with or without the tranny.

 

[mrrsm]

I grabbed that series of 5 segments showing the 4.2L pull from an '03 Envoy (Sorry about the Gabbiness) because I stumbled across them while looking for something else ...and of course, when it comes to having enough relevant information on this R&R... There is so little video information out there to obtain ...that I'll take whatever I can find and make some select screen prints to help me figure out how things are supposed to look down there at each step and improve my understanding as I go along. The fact that his vehicle is a 4X4 is a nice touch for our members curious about how all the hardware has to be dealt with.

For starters ... Right now...I am leaning strongly towards just leaving the transmission where it is...because I'm hoping that access to the array of bolts along the top of the Transmission Bell Housing for the REMOVAL portion of this job will be easier than climbing all over it like an MMA Grappler using 7' long 1/2" extensions. I did that work to R&R the Transmission in this vehicle back around 2 years ago when I was really Ultra-Fit and Crazy Strong and that was well before I got hurt so bad under the wheel well. But now I doubt that I would have the strength to do what I endured back then and I'm not keen on risking re-injuring my back while attempting any Heroics down there. My days of playing Jor-El have ended and I have to remind myself to be very careful. So not having the New Engine Head installed right now... may turn out to be be a Real Blessing in Disguise!

Because this '02 motor has been the focus of our attention all along... I will finish showing its removal HERE before starting the new post about the '04 Donor Engine and then once that installation is complete... We'll return to work on The $85K Project by picking up where we have to leave off right now and later...we an continue with the replacement of the Timing Chain and Gerotor Oil Pump without the necessity of me playing "Bobby McGyver" and I can return to following the Ground-Breaking, Original Epic Posts you did here on GMT Nation for the Timing Chain Replacement, following your guidelines to get the job done.

However....THIS time I'll be doing it while I'm sitting down on a folding chair in my garage and looking directly at the entire Timing Chain Set face on with the Engine mounted on a stand while it is...Naked and Afraid ...right there in front us. What a New and Inviting Mechanical Repair Experience THAT will be compared to all the prior difficulties we have had to deal with!

I should mention that ultimately...I will be obtaining a Brand New OEM Timing Sets and OEM Gerotor Oil Pumps for BOTH motors ...since re-engineering for the restrictions imposed by the presence of the Timing Chain Cover will not be necessary and I can return to using the parts and assemblies that are strictly...OEM and "Stock as a Clock" with By The Manual means for these installations. Hell... Moose.. I will not know how to act!

 

[mrrsm]

@Mooseman ... You'll get a kick out of this... I woke up in an absolute panic at 3:00 AM today... because I was dreaming about the fact that in order for us to be able to pull JUST the Engine out of the 2002 Trailblazer... that I would have to ROTATE THE CRANKSHAFT FOR AT LEAST ONE REVOLUTION IN ORDER TO ACCESS THE TC BOLTS AND SEPARATE THE TC FROM THE FLEX PLATE... and of course...when I realized that since we are pulling engine to put in the Donor Engine... All Bets Were Off on having to worry about keeping its relative position any more and I was immediately relieved.

I decided I could establish its future TDC positional reference by simply referring to the recorded images that show the present position of the White Paint Mark at 12 Noon on the Harmonic Balancer-Serpentine Pulley and the present relevant positions of the #1 Cylinder at TDC and the likewise, #6 Piston... also very nearly at TDC... and after noting all of these things for future reference... now... I can crank the motor over to my Heart's Content!

Whew... THAT just shows you how narrow an aperture the lens of the Human Mind can focus its F-Stop when working on a project with a singular purpose for so long a time and being so very close to it t, that one can become unable to "See the Forest for the Trees"... LOL.

Oh... and on an even lighter note... the New Interior Trailblazer LS Circa 2002-2009 Charcoal Gray Carpet arrived last evening...and it looks pretty damned good! The Jute backing is nice and thick and custom cut for the pending installation... and the Carpet feels quite rugged and it has a carpet pile that has a very nice look and feel to it:

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[Mooseman]

How much did that carpet run ya? I'm thinking of getting new carpet for the Saab after the body and all is fixed up. Mine's got permanent winter funk embedded.

 

[mrrsm]

Right at $250.00... Here is the eBay Listing with Free S&H & a Wide Range of Colours...Too:
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...and here is one of their many "How To Install" Videos with this one showing a 2001 TAHOE for demonstration purposes to show how this installation should progress. Get out your Note Pad, Pencil and a Hot Cup of Coffee...and Perhaps imagine that a Team of Two or Three Canadian GMT Members could help each other do a few vehicles in a day involving a nice meal and a chance for a "Mini-Meet"... Eh? (LOL) :

 

[mrrsm]

Earlier this evening... a small package... a Modest $20 Purchase from eBay with Free S&H... arrived as something that may prove invaluable when applied to moving viscous Oil Fluids in many forms... Either as clean, new and nourishing Oil and Metal Protective Additives on their way INTO and INSIDE Engine(s) as an effective method of Indispensable Pre-Oiling prior to the first moments of Engine Start-Ups... or... by way of the Battery Powered 12 Volt Gear Driven suction mechanism and clear plastic tubing... vacuum drawing out filthy, dirty oils and lubricants from the interior cavities of oil pans and crankcases... without having to resort to crawling around under vehicles, hunting for Drain Plugs, dragging wrenches, rags, drain pans and consternation at feeling so undignified at having to look up at black oil draining down from above... and often right in our faces.

By snaking the very thin, clear plastic tube down inside the Dip Stick Tube, the slender flexible hose can reach around into areas not normally accessible by just unscrewing a drain plug and hoping that Gravity and 'capillary attraction' to have enough influence to draw out every last drop of dirty oil. This device feels much heavier and more robust than it appears in the eBay listing and there is quality and thought in its design. The plan going forward though...is NOT to focus so much on how well it can draw oils OUT of an engine...but rather how slow and steady the process of Pre-Oiling can be accomplished by essentially hooking up the tubing in REVERSE.

By feeding Engine(s) the Pre-Oiling Mixture of either Royal Purple Engine Break-In Oil or Valvoline Racing Oil mixed thoroughly together with Engine Break-In Additives ...slowly pressurized inside the engine block at an External Oil Galley Port... then all of the dormant, dried out Oil Galleys and Babbitt Bearings deep inside the block as well as the Oil Channels feeding the Valve Trains above would receive the protection these Oils will provide...without the necessity of extravagant methods to "spin up" Bone Dry Engines and guarantee unnecessary wear and tear and damage within the first few minutes of coming to life...just a little too soon ... and suffering too much Metal on Metal systemic damage.

When the Donor Engine finally gets here next week and is mounted on the Engine Stand... The Experimentation with these ideas... will begin:

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[vhehn]

I just read this thread and had to register just to say holy cow. all this for a vehicle worth less than 2000 fixed? I have rebuilt engines for almost 50 years now. am in the process of pulling the head on my envoy to replace a bad piston. that's how I ran across this site. this engine is the most mechanic unfriendly pos I have ever worked on but I cant imagine spending the amount of time and money you have. just get her done man.

Earlier this evening... a small package... a Modest $20 Purchase from eBay with Free S&H... arrived as something that may prove invaluable when applied to moving viscous Oil Fluids in many forms... Either as clean, new and nourishing Oil and Metal Protective Additives on their way INTO and INSIDE Engine(s) as an effective method of Indispensable Pre-Oiling prior to the first moments of Engine Start-Ups... or... by way of the Battery Powered 12 Volt Gear Driven suction mechanism and clear plastic tubing... vacuum drawing out filthy, dirty oils and lubricants from the interior cavities of oil pans and crankcases... without having to resort to crawling around under vehicles, hunting for Drain Plugs, dragging wrenches, rags, drain pans and consternation at feeling so undignified at having to look up at black oil draining down from above... and often right in our faces.

By snaking the very thin, clear plastic tube down inside the Dip Stick Tube, the slender flexible hose can reach around into areas not normally accessible by just unscrewing a drain plug and hoping that Gravity and 'capillary attraction' to have enough influence to draw out every last drop of dirty oil. This device feels much heavier and more robust than it appears in the eBay listing and there is quality and thought in its design. The plan going forward though...is NOT to focus so much on how well it can draw oils OUT of an engine...but rather how slow and steady the process of Pre-Oiling can be accomplished by essentially hooking up the tubing in REVERSE.

By feeding Engine(s) the Pre-Oiling Mixture of either Royal Purple Engine Break-In Oil or Valvoline Racing Oil mixed thoroughly together with Engine Break-In Additives ...slowly pressurized inside the engine block at an External Oil Galley Port... then all of the dormant, dried out Oil Galleys and Babbitt Bearings deep inside the block as well as the Oil Channels feeding the Valve Trains above would receive the protection these Oils will provide...without the necessity of extravagant methods to "spin up" Bone Dry Engines and guarantee unnecessary wear and tear and damage within the first few minutes of coming to life...just a little too soon ... and suffering too much Metal on Metal systemic damage.

When the Donor Engine finally gets here next week and is mounted on the Engine Stand... The Experimentation with these ideas... will begin:

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[Mooseman]

Please head over to part 2 of this saga:
ENGINE SWAP: 2004 for 2002 GM ATLAS 4.2L MOTOR

He's into another head swap there too.

 

[mrrsm]

Welcome to GMT Nation, Mr. @vhehn ... I very much look forward to reading and learning from your own Original Post and seeing any images and insights you can provide as well and I sincerely hope for your speedy and successful Engine Repair.

 

[midnightbluS10]

Wow. I had to register just to say thank you for this entire thread.

Working on reinstalling my head now. I'm at reassembly stage. The one issue I believe I'll have is that I didn't set the cams up as stated when I took it apart. I didn't check the flanks with a straightedge and then for the .005 clearance needed between the cam and straightedge. Though I did use the cam holding tool to hold them until I took the head to the machine shop. It was returned with the cams in a different position so they'll need to be reset for correct timing.

So the timing isn't correct. How can I set each part separately and then combine them, aka set cyl 1 in the block to TDC exactly then set the cams in the head and bolt it on? Is that possible? How would one do it if building an engine from scratch? Any suggestions?

Thanks!


Edit: I say one issue. I'm also worried that the wedge didn't get installed correctly and now isn't holding the tensioner as it should. After viewing a tip sheet that showed installation of the tool with the cover off for viewing access, I'm worried mine isn't in the correct spot. It's wedged against the support/bolt in the cover and the tensioner but,mine doesn't look like it's installed low enough down. When I did it, I whacked it 6 or 7 good times with a mini sledge so it should've gone into position, I would think. But I'm just not sure.

 

[Mooseman]

If you put the cam gears on, turn them to the relative position of where they would have the marks for the chain (exhaust has the "Delphi" horizontal to head, intake is at about 1 o'clock) and put on the cam holding tool. That should bring them to the correct positions.

Once you get the head on, when you try to get the chain on the gears and then the cam, if it won't go on as if it's too short, then likely the tensioner extended. If you check in this thread, somewhere there is a pic of a homemade tool with wire that has a bent end so as to go down to pull on the unlocking arm on the tensioner. Pull the arm, pull the chain (careful to not make it skip on the lower gear) and wedge the tool back in there. Chain should go on very easy now with the extra length available.

 

[midnightbluS10]

Thanks! I did remember that I took a picture of where the cams were in relation to the holes in the holding tool. They were as far to the passenger side as they could be. Meaning the flats weren't exactly flat but barely inclined. They were turned as far as they could be inside the tool, which isn't much, maybe a 1 or 2 degree incline. I figure as long as I get it back to there, I should be ok. Does that sound logical? I believe it's the same one Freedom Racing sells. I got it on Amazon from some place I can't recall atm. I did buy my wedge from Freedom. And a new hat.



I know I should've started a new thread. Sorry about that. I just figured it'd be easier just to ask him since he obviously had a vast knowledge of this engine and I mistakenly posted over at Trailvoy.com not knowing they were so inactive and without checking to see that it wasn't very active beforehand. So I didn't get very much of a response. 1 person I think.

I'll make a thread here and link it back to my original at Trailvoy. It's similar to this in that it's mainly me posting over and over. The quality of the posts, on the other hand, are far from equal quality lol. I only wish I was that good. And I do this for a living. Lol.

 

[mrrsm]

Now that I've read your post... I am a bit concerned... Before you first started to take the engine apart... without knowing precisely where the Opened Vs. Closed Valves were situated in relation to the Timing Marks on the Two Sprockets...and THEIR relationship to the Black Links positioned in every (7th) Timing Chain location... you have absolutely no way of confirming what position the Timing Mark on the Crankshaft is in right now...and therefore... no way of confirming the exact positions of where all of the Pistons in the Cylinders are either.

If you install the Camshafts in their accepted locations; where the #1 Cylinder should have been pre-positioned at TDC... Right now....even if the the Two Cam Flats are Facing Up and Horizontal (which can also be confirmed by looking at the Slot at the front of each Camshaft before the two Sprockets are installed showing them vertical, straight up and down and equal)... and even if the word "DELPHI" is level and horizontal with the upper front of the Engine Head... you could STILL wind up installing the Two Camshafts out of position and wind up either bending valves or damaging some of the pistons because of this serious timing misalignment.

It is important to remember that the correct alignment for this engine only takes place (1) X out of every (14) Rotations.... so at this point... it looks like you will have to pull off the Oil Pan to get off the Front Timing Cover in order to hand rotate the engine clockwise until the #1 Cylinder Piston is right at TDC... before you Pre-Set the Two Camshafts and re-align them to work right and then fasten down their Bearing Caps in place...and THEN Install the Timing Chain and Sprockets. And if it all comes to that because there is no other way to do it... you might as well replace the Timing Chain, the Timing Chain Tensioner and the Two Timing Guides while you are doing this. I wish I could think of a way out of this dilemma... but this motor is an "Interference Engine" ...and this truly is one of those, "You Can't Get There... From Here..." kind of problems.

Please watch the video to see what it all is supposed to look like before anything is taken apart. If you have to go this route... You do not need to remove the Head.... as long as the two Camshafts are NOT installed and tightened down... you can Remove the Oil Pan and Front Cover and then remove the Timing Chain completely... then Hand Rotate the Engine Clockwise until you can observe that the #1 Piston is right at TDC... and also have the square "Woodruff Key Slot" in the Crankshaft-Gerotor Gear Sprocket slotted onto the Crankshaft positioned at 12:00 High ...with the Timing Chain Alignment Mark located at the lower right sight of the Sprocket and then simply follow the method shown in this video:

 

[midnightbluS10]

So I did all of that before taking anything apart. I lined up links, marked with white paint, did the crank pulley, etc... Its all at TDC. And has not moved from where I set it. With that said, does all of what you said still apply? I surely didn't just pop the hood and start disassembling lol. Sorry if I didn't make that clear.

The head just returned from the machine shop. Fully assembled but not at TDC on #1 as the valves are open.

As far as the the disassembly, I followed service procedure, AFAIK.

If I followed proper procedure and nothing has moved, I still need to do all that? I don't get why.

 

[vhehn]

its not that hard. as long as tdc is determined and the chain spacing is correct and the cam flats are up(I use a small 4 inch level) you are correct. its true that it takes up to 14 turns to get the chain marks to line up but tdc is correct every 1 rotation.
if you have the head off and want to find exact tdc make a piece of wood that will span no one cylinder. bolt it to the block using head bolt holes. run a screw down in the center of the piston hole just far enough so the piston hits and is stopped by it. then rotate right until the piston hits it. make a mark on the balancer. then rotate left until the piston hits the screw. make another mark on the balancer. now halfway between those two marks is perfect tdc.
I would remove the cams from the head for installation so you don't run the risk of bending valves.

So I did all of that before taking anything apart. I lined up links, marked with white paint, did the crank pulley, etc... Its all at TDC. And has not moved from where I set it. With that said, does all of what you said still apply? I surely didn't just pop the hood and start disassembling lol. Sorry if I didn't make that clear.

The head just returned from the machine shop. Fully assembled but not at TDC on #1 as the valves are open.

As far as the the disassembly, I followed service procedure, AFAIK.

If I followed proper procedure and nothing has moved, I still need to do all that? I don't get why.

 

[mrrsm]

Okay.... if that is the case... This will be very straightforward:

Set the Engine Head up on a Pair of 2"X4"s the length of the head so that the Valves can articulate when the the Camshafts are being rotated. Squirt some Engine Assembly Lube in the lower halves of the Aluminum Head and lay the Camshafts into their respective positions and after a Squirt of Engine Assembly Lube on the upper bearing surfaces of the Camshafts... install the Bearing Caps and tighten according to the Manual for Torque Pattern and levels.

Use a Large Crescent Wrench on the Hex Flats located at the front of both camshafts to rotate them slowly around ( The Compressed Valve Springs will offer some Resistance) until the Rear Cam Flats are both Horizontal, Level and Facing Upwards. Use the J-4XXXXX Tool (A Cheap One is available from JEGS) to secure the camshafts in place and then use an extra piece of a Plastic Coated Wire Coat Hanger to hold it fast in place.

Follow the normal Engine Head Installation Procedures (Use Lacquer Thinner on both surfaces with a lint free cloth or better yet... Spray Brake Cleaner), MLS Gasket, Use the Updated Head Bolts from FelPro # ES71334 instead of the Old Style version, use the proper Torque and the additional degree of TTY Angle, etc. and with all that done... You should have no worries that any damage to the valve train will occur when you follow the procedures outlined in the previous video.

From the moment you begin to lift the chain on both sides of the Engine... try not to dislodge the Aluminum Tension Block Holder... The Chain will have to be controlled on BOTH sides with constant, even lifting pressure until the Timing Chain Sprockets are correctly mated to the chain and bolted up to both camshafts. This will prevent the chain from slipping off of the Crankshaft Cog and losing its proper relationship between the Black Link on the Chain that aligns with "The Spot" on the Crankshaft Cog.

After the Bolts are Torqued and the proper additional TTY Angles are achieved... Rotate the Engine at the Crankshaft Clockwise, VERY SLOWLY until eventually... the word DELPHi is level with the front upper Engine Head and the Two Alignment Marks on the Sprockets meet with the Black Links on the Timing Chain to confirm everything is perfect. If you feel any stoppage other than the slow hiss of compression exhaling from the (6) Cylinders... STOP
and investigate. And If all goes well... Cool Beenz... Hope this covers all the bases for you.

 

[midnightbluS10]

Awesome. I was hoping there wouldn't be much to it. As soon as I realized I didn't check the cams with a straightedge and feeler gauges, I started to freak out. Add to that the week I've had and my mind wasn't all here when posting so I left out important info. Sorry about that.

After tragically losing my best friend this week, my head's still not all here. She was a chocolate lab and I had her for almost 13 years. She was the best dog I've ever had. So it's been extremely difficult to deal with. Especially after what I just went thru with her. It was hugely traumatic.

Thanks for your help, guys. I'll keep all my questions in my own threads from now on as not to muck up yours. Thanks again.

 

[mrrsm]

Don't forget to Remove the Aluminum Wedge Tensioner Holding Block after the Timing Chain Tensioner is all set... ;>)

 

[03TrailblazerNut]

Wow, I thought I had put a lot into mine. Props. I feel ya with the back injury. I went in for a fusion of C5+6 and woke up with my throat cut open and a broken C6 vertebra. When the Dr put the screw in the vertebra broke. And I couldn't sue because they make you sign a release before doing the surgery since they have students, even though there where no students involved in my surgery. And I was released less than 18 hours later with Perc 5's for pain. It's been 10 years and pain is a part of daily life. But we still don't stop. To much to do, not enough time and no one will do it for you. And like you said, go knocking on random doors and you will find people with more problems than you.
Thanks for posting all the info on the repairs. I'm definitely saving this thread to refer back to as I work on my 03TB. Something about that truck that I love. We have a 2015 VW Tiguan that sits and I drive it around every couple days just to keep it from rotting into the ground. But it's basically a back up vehicle to my TB. My girlfriend doesn't drive and I'm not paying insurance and registration on 2 vehicles when I can only drive 1 at a time. Been thinking about seeing the VW and possibly buying a newer TB but keeping mine or giving it to my daughter with the understanding that I continue the maintenance and repairs.