P00017 P00014

Uncleenvoy

Well-Known Member
2006 trailblazer..after rebuild and replacing transmission im on to tackle these codes..ive had them show up on my 04 envoy b4 so im going to do what i did there..my first suspect is the vvt solenoid or some call it a camshaft position actuator solenoid..its pretty easy to get to however you have to take off the belt and loosen the the power steering pump..but b4 i do that..this solenoid operates off of oil so checked oil level and absolutely nothing on dipstick..did an oil change and cleared the codes.i dont know how long i would have to drive for it to retest so gonna put a few miles on her and see .. update pending
 

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Uncleenvoy

Well-Known Member
Put about 30 miles on her and no check engine light but showing the P00014 pending..so it might come back we'll see..more to come..gonna go after those ABS and brake light warnings in the morn
 

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Uncleenvoy

Well-Known Member
Check engine light came back on P00014..so went and removed the vvt and WOW..filthy..cleaned it up and looks like the screens are intact so i dont have to buy a new one but there's an alarming amount of metal on there..i didn't see any metal in the old oil when i changed it but ill go double check..gonna use a magnet on these shavings to see if its aluminum..this is an upgraded version of the vtt..the old ones only had screens over the diameter of the holes which would often break loose when clogged this one has a screen around the whole groove they also have one that has wire coils in the grooves that keeps the screens in place..if buying a new one i would get that one..so gonna put it back in,clear codes and run it again..hopefully that solves the problem
 

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Uncleenvoy

Well-Known Member
Put about 45 miles on her..no check engine light and no codes pending 7 out of 8 monitors complete only the evap sys monitor needs to be completed..i think we've got it
 

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Uncleenvoy

Well-Known Member
@JayArr hope they appreciate it..and did u see what happened to the power steering lines?

 

Mooseman

Moderator
Brake cleaner is too aggressive. I've seen it destroy rubber seals. Carb cleaner is much better.
 
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Uncleenvoy

Well-Known Member
@Mooseman i'll take note of that.i didnt get any brake cleaner on the seal thats on the end that seals to the block..i just sprayed the channels with the screens..i dont know if they're seals inside but i wiped it down good and dry b4 reinstalled so i think im good..but ill be sure to use carb cleaner on anything that has seals..thanx 4 the advice
 

Reprise

Lifetime VIP Supporter
Brake cleaner is too aggressive. I've seen it destroy rubber seals. Carb cleaner is much better.

This is good info; brake cleaner is my (and prolly everyone's) 'go to' for degreasing. Thx for the tip. :thumbsup:
 
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Uncleenvoy

Well-Known Member
P0017 is back..i was gonna go buy a crank sensor but ive been doing some research and i keep seeing people say that a cam/crank relearn is needed after i cleaned and replaced the cam actuator solenoid..is this the case and do u need the expensive scan tool to do it..thua freeze frame ahiws high roms at idle and she said it would ahut iff occasionally..which i did experince today while reading the codes.it was idling at around 900 ans shut off twice just sitting here..started back up no problem both times
 

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mntegra01

Well-Known Member
I would try a new VVT solenoid, and if that doesnt fix it, you may need a timing chain job in your future.
 

Mooseman

Moderator
Yep, try a CPAS first. Then the cam sensor, which doesn't need a CASE relearn. However, the crank sensor does require a CASE relearn which can only be done with a high end scanner or Tech 2. It could be stalling if the cam is over advanced or retarded. Another possibility is the cam phaser that's not working correctly or stuck. Without a better scanner, all you can do is replace parts. I'd go in this order: CPAS, cam sensor, crank sensor (with CASE relearn) and then the cam phaser.

The chance that the chain has stretched so much that it can't time properly is low. I have never heard of one stretching like that however there have been a couple of cases of the nylon chain guides breaking or falling off but that would be very evident with lots of noise and aluminum shavings in the oil.
 

TJBaker57

Well-Known Member
I noticed in the freeze frame data the intake temp was 39 F and the engine coolant temp was just 72. So the oil temp was likely still below 40 F. This makes me wonder about the condition of the oil and it's an appropriate viscosity.
 

djthumper

Administrator
I just had to replace the CPAS in my 06 so that things would reset for a smog check.
 
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Uncleenvoy

Well-Known Member
@mntegra01 @Mooseman @TJBaker57 i cleaned the CPAS and that got rid of p0014 (post#3)..did an oil change and that was 2 months ago only put maybe 250 miles on her since (post #1)..i dont think i bench tested the CPAS..if i did i probably would of posted it..but are we recommending just replace it anyway? Never heard of cam phaser or know where that is so ill be looking that up..and what is sensor B as indicated on the p0017 screen?the crank sensor?
 
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MRRSM

Lifetime VIP Supporter
Courtesy the Atlas Vortec Engine Design Team under GM Engineer Mr. Ron Kociba... back in the Late 1990's ...they designed Variable Valve Timing (0-25 Degrees of retard) into only the Exhaust Cam Shaft side of the GM 4.2L LL8 Engine in order to improve Power, Responsiveness and Performance in a wider range of RPM. They were wildly successful in doing so by using this Delphi Exhaust Camshaft Variable Valve Timing Phaser:
EARLYMODELCAMPHASER1.jpg

With this New Design, they were also able to eliminate the need for any (EGR) Exhaust Gas Recycle Valve operating on this LL8 Engine. However, the penalty was paid with the need for an Hydraulically Adjustable Cam Phaser "loosely" connected to an Internal Helical Gear that responded to an infinite range of positions within that 0-25 Degree Camshaft adjust-ability by relying upon changes in Engine Oil Pressure. (See this Cutaway of the Design)

GMLL8CAMPHASERCUTAWAY.jpg

The Oil Filter Screens in the early Model ACDelco and Delphi VVT (CPAS) Camshaft Position Actuation Solenoids tended to either get clogged with Oil Contaminants, Dirt and Debris... or get vacuumed loose and ingested into the Engine over time. The Major Culprits or Modes of CPAS Failure are:

(1) Lack of Frequent Oil and Oil Filter Changes. Dirty Motor Oil is the Bane of the Cam Phaser Functioning Properly.

(2) Failed CPAS "O" Ring Seals caused by the constant 'Action -Reaction' the inner Solenoid Plunger causes vs. the CPAS Housing. As a result, the CPAS Body slides ever so slightly in and out, and it tends to Flatten Out the sealing "O" Ring" over time. Dirty Engine Oil leaking down the Front Passenger Side of the Engine Block is the revealing symptom that this has occurred.

(3) Oil Leaks from the CPAS Body itself contaminating the Electrical Harness Connector.
 

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Uncleenvoy

Well-Known Member
Just looked up the cam phaser..hope its not that..gotta take the whole valve cover to get to that..which means removing belt,altenator and intake mani..most is easy but i really struggle with that last intake mani bolt near firewall..that thing gives me grief everytime..wouldnt that thriw a p1345 if it was malfunctioning
 

mntegra01

Well-Known Member
within the last year at work we have done about 4 timing chain jobs on the 6 cylinder and the 5 cylinder atlas engines. The chain stretch isnt as bad a LLT or LFX 3.6.

We really rarely see these things at our dealer anymore. It's a shame the engines cost about 4K.

I would follow Mooseman's recommendations as far as replacing parts.

Straight from SI:
Important: Scan tool control of the CMP actuator solenoid is inhibited when DTC P0017 sets.

The following conditions may cause this DTC to set:
  • An improperly torqued crankshaft balancer
  • A mis-built or mis-timed engine
  • A loose or missing crankshaft balancer bolt
  • Excessive crankshaft endplay
  • The CMP actuator solenoid stuck open
  • The CMP actuator stuck in a position other than 0 degrees
 

Mooseman

Moderator
It's quite possible that the CPAS is still at fault despite being cleaned. That's why I now usually recommend just replacing it given the hassle to get to it. And they also upgraded the screens with extra retainers to prevent them from getting sucked in.
 

TJBaker57

Well-Known Member
The commanded angle, actual angle, variance, solenoid commanded percentage, etc can be monitored with an OBD adapter and a smartphone app.
 

MRRSM

Lifetime VIP Supporter
EDIT 12/09/2020:

Thanks to @Mooseman for catching me on this Mistake in Post# 24:

Unfortunately... it is much more complicated than that:

The P0017 Code (along with the P1345 Code if present) are more symptomatic of having a Failing Timing Chain Tensioner due to the presence of a High Mileage Engine with
Excessive Timing Chain Stretch and Very Worn Out Timing Chain Guides.

The Best information on the P0017 issues comes from the TSB linked below:


This might an accurate interpretation of how these sensors interact... but does NOT relate to the P0017:

The reason this occurs is because the (CPS) (Cam Position Sensor ...NOT the CPAS) which shows the PCM the Absolute Position of the Exhaust Camshaft versus the (CKP) Sensor showing the PCM the Correct Position of the Crankshaft, just Before the #1 Piston reaches Top Dead Center (BTDC) on Cylinder #1 Are Out of Sync. This causes confusion for the PCM to be unable to accurately activate Precise Electronic Fuel Injection and achieve accurate Spark Timing as well once their inter-dependent rotational positions have failed to become reconciled.

The rest only applies if the Timing Cover has to be removed for ANY reasons including a P1345 Code probably being caused by a Loose Crankshaft Bolt:

This Repair demands the R&R of the Crankcase-Oil Pan and the Harmonic Balancer as well in order to take off the Front Timing Cover. The replacement of the Damaged OEM Parts should be done using the Cloyes Complete Timing Set has the Best Components and likewise, replacing the Cam Phaser might also be a good idea to perform at the very same time.

Please... Remember to also Replace of the Gerotor Oil Pump-to-Oil Pick Up Tube Seal without fail by using the Orange Grommet Seal for the Late Model Oil Pumps or by using the Blue Viton "O" Ring for the Early Model Gerotor Oil Pumps and Oil Pick-Up Tubes. Do NOT Mix and Match these Seals!

I'm very sorry to pronounce that if it comes down to cases... this will become a Difficult Repair Job to perform on an Installed LL8 Motor. So it should NOT be lightly undertaken without a lot of preparation of the Engine Work Field first ...and not before acquiring the Proper Parts, Tools and by gleaning the prior understanding of what the Right Repair Techniques and Procedures are well beforehand in order to successfully pull it off.

To hopefully prevent the P1345 (if present) from returning, the TTY Crankshaft Bolt and the Sealing Grommet Friction Washer on the Back Side of the Harmonic Balancer should also ALWAYS be replaced. After being Torqued to 110 Foot Pounds... an additional Turn of 180 Degrees of Torque to Angle should be applied to the New TTY Crankshaft Bolt:

GMLL8HBFRICTIONWASHER.jpg

A P1345 Code will be set if the Harmonic Balancer was ever removed...and the TTY Crankshaft Bolt got re-used. When performing this R&R... avoid trying to "hold the Harmonic Balancer still with a Pry-Bar". Instead, look under the Crankcase-Oil-Pan at the underside of the Oil Pan Flange for a Small Black Plastic Plug:

GMLL8CRANKCASEREAROFOILPAN.jpg

After removing it... Rotate the Engine via the Crankshaft Bolt with a Socket and Breaker-Bar until One of the Three Torque Converter- to -Flex-Plate Mount Bolts comes into view. Then, insert a 15MM Deep Socket fastened to a Breaker-bar and align or Brace the bar in place during the entire Crankshaft Bolt Tightening Procedures. Don't forget to remove the 15mm Socket and Replace the Black Plastic Plug.
 

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Mooseman

Moderator
@MRRSM , please cite the source of this information.
 

MRRSM

Lifetime VIP Supporter
The Crankshaft Friction Washers are NOT unique or exclusive to the LL8 Engine Line and are of a Common Design and Purpose. The later model versions of these Friction Washers have been Diamond Impregnated on their Contact Surfaces in order to reduce the chance of the Harmonic Balancers Slipping and Loosening and causing the P1345 Codes and/or ruined engines as a result. The SOP for using these for Harmonic Balancer R&Rs is to replace them each time the Harmonic Balancer is removed and replaced:


GMFRICTIONWASHERDESIGN.jpgGMFRICTIONWASHERDESIGN1.jpg

It seems like a small enough of an investment and repair action to take if the result is NOT having the P1345 rear its ugly head again.
 

Mooseman

Moderator
No, I'm talking about that those codes are caused only by a failing timing chain. Saying that is like saying that a burnt out bulb is caused by a defective alternator. It's possible but it's jumping to conclusions. Don't assume the worse before investigating other possibilities.
 

MRRSM

Lifetime VIP Supporter
Most Certainly... I misunderstood what I was being directed to clarify. Thanks for the Corrective Instruction... (Proper Edits made to Post #23).
 
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Mooseman

Moderator
However that TSB is very good and points directly to the CPAS for those codes. Also interesting that it also points to possibly worn crank thrust bearings and the debris from them that causes damage to the CPAS and phaser.
 

djthumper

Administrator
The TSB has some of the information but P1345 is not an error being received. Don't clutter codes that are not being reported to us.
 
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Uncleenvoy

Well-Known Member
Does the tsb bulletin mean the dealer has to fix it for free?

The light went away last night but the code is still in the computer..should i clear it
 

djthumper

Administrator
It is a service bulletin, not a recall. SO there is no free fix.

What code is still being held? I actually cleared mine and then took it for 2 drive cycles
 

djthumper

Administrator
Yeah, that is the one that stuck on me as well. I drove it several times and did not clear.
 
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Uncleenvoy

Well-Known Member
Ok..let me know if it clears..i think i might just get a new crank sensor and see if i can find a cheap tech 2 on craigslist or somewhere to do the relearn
 

djthumper

Administrator
After I cleared the PCM it came up fine. The sensor is probably fine.
 

Mooseman

Moderator
And replacing the crank sensor will also require a CASE relearn.
 

JayArr

Well-Known Member
There is a thread in the other sub forum where guys with high end scanners are willing to help. Check it out there may be someone in your area to help with the case relearn.

 
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Uncleenvoy

Well-Known Member
@JayArr thanks..gonna check that out..saw a couple out there for around 250bux

Damn..nobody from the NY area..maybe i go get one and add myself to the list after i learn how to use it
 

djthumper

Administrator
@JayArr thanks..gonna check that out..saw a couple out there for around 250bux

Damn..nobody from the NY area..maybe i go get one and add myself to the list after i learn how to use it
You really are overthinking this. If your MIL went off make sure you drive it a few cycles. Or you can use the code reader to clear the code and drive it to ensure it isn't coming back. Nothing we are recommending you to do it requiring a CASE relearn at this point.
 

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