Thermostat bad?

revamp

Member
Dec 22, 2011
223
Mansfield, TX
I went back to the muffler shop where I had the converter replaced. On the lift he showed me how the metal had gotten so hot on both ends of the converter and said the converter was fried... I had it replaced less than 5500 miles prior.

Getting the coolant sensor replaced this week. My engine has been running hotter than it should, but I don't have a way to measure actual temperature.
 

McGMT

Member
Jun 17, 2012
621
Menthol said:
What was his fair price? Not sure about that tensioner seizing up, sounds like a scam. How do you know the converter is bad?

I had a tensioner (on a different GM) seize before on me. It would move a little bit but when I went to slack the belt to take it off it wouldn't budge more than a tiny bit and when I finally forced it to let me slack the belt it snapped...
 

TonyT

Member
May 6, 2012
108
MichEnvoyGuy said:
Sure!

Tools needed:
<very long detailed posting snipped>
Thanks muchly for the posting. Very useful for my bro-in-law the mechanic as I just got the P0128 code myself. I've noticed this last long distance trip that the thermostat has been two notches to the left rather than the usual one notch to the left or straight up and down.

Might as well get both the 'stat and the sensor from GM.

And I ain't no mechanic and am quite useless with tools other than a screwdriver for taking PCs apart.
 

boydjw

Member
Dec 7, 2011
6
Quick question that follows on this subject -

I was experiencing the typical symptoms of a failing Thermostat (1-2 ticks to the LEFT of 210, poor MPG's, slow to operating temperature) so I decided to replace the Thermostat along with the ECT while I was in there. I went with an ACDelco Thermostat and an aftermarket ECT. After taking pride in a job well done with a 15 mile test drive post replacement, I was surprised that I'm still showing steady at 1 tick to the LEFT of 210 when observing the temperature gauge head on.

I know the easy way to troubleshoot this is with a scantool to get a live coolant temperature reading, but I haven't invested in one of those yet. Any thoughts for what's going on? Did I get a bum Thermostat, or is 1 tick to the LEFT of 210 still considered normal? :confused:
 

Wooluf1952

Member
Nov 20, 2011
2,663
Milwaukee, Wisconsin
It's possible the needle is just mounted out of place.
The only sure way to tell is something that gives an actual read-out.
Maybe an auto parts store, an independent mechanic or a member in the area could help.
 

TonyT

Member
May 6, 2012
108
Wooluf1952 said:
It's possible the needle is just mounted out of place.
The only sure way to tell is something that gives an actual read-out.
Maybe an auto parts store, an independent mechanic or a member in the area could help.
For about $20-$25 you can buy an OBD2 Bluetooth reader on Ebay. If you have an Android device with Bluetooth you can use the Android Torque app to read the data.

If your Windows laptop doesn't have BlueTooth you can buy a $1-$2 Bluetooth USB device on eBay. I like the half circle rounded ones because they will have less of a chance of catching on anything.

I purchased Touchscan as that had the lowest entry level price for Windows software. If I'd had an Android device with Bluetooth I would've happily bought the deluxe version of Torque which is $5 I think.

This would then let you read and reset the codes and the basic data such as coolant temp. Touchscan doesn't have the ability to read the tranny temp without the deluxe version and figuring out the codes necessary to get that reading.
 

6716

Member
Jul 24, 2012
822
boydjw said:
Quick question that follows on this subject -

I was experiencing the typical symptoms of a failing Thermostat (1-2 ticks to the LEFT of 210, poor MPG's, slow to operating temperature) so I decided to replace the Thermostat along with the ECT while I was in there. I went with an ACDelco Thermostat and an aftermarket ECT. After taking pride in a job well done with a 15 mile test drive post replacement, I was surprised that I'm still showing steady at 1 tick to the LEFT of 210 when observing the temperature gauge head on.

I know the easy way to troubleshoot this is with a scantool to get a live coolant temperature reading, but I haven't invested in one of those yet. Any thoughts for what's going on? Did I get a bum Thermostat, or is 1 tick to the LEFT of 210 still considered normal? :confused:

Did you get get the CEL and P0128?
 

boydjw

Member
Dec 7, 2011
6
No I didn't, which could indicate that the temperature gauge needle is biased low as suggested. That being said, I decided to replace the thermostat when it was failing rather than when it failed completely. I may have replaced the thermostat prior to the point of triggering the fault code.

I think I'm going to spend a few dollars and enter the age of automotive enlightenment. With a means of reading the real time coolant temperature, I'll know for sure whether it's the temperature gauge needle, ECT, or thermostat. I'm an avid amateur wrench, so it's probably an overdue purchase for me anyway. Thanks for the help! :thumbsup:
 

boydjw

Member
Dec 7, 2011
6
So I went with a Bluetooth OBDII device to read the live ECT sensor data, and thought I would post my results to close the loop on this one.

At cruising speeds the ECT sensor readout was ~198 and while stopped it would climb up to 202. I believe this is considered normal. So, although my temperature gauge needle stays one tick to the LEFT of 210 after changing my thermostat and ECT sensor, the actual coolant temperature is where it needs to be.

My takeaways from this are 1) that my thermostat and ECT sensor are fine and my temperature gauge needle just reads a little low, and 2) that for those considering a thermostat and/or ECT sensor change, you should really get a check of the ECT sensor data first and not just rely on your temperature gauge needle position. One tick to the LEFT of 210 may be ok...at least it was in my case. :yes:
 

Sparky

Member
Dec 4, 2011
12,927
Mine is the same way. I figured by looking at how my mpg was that my needle was just off a tad.
 

am-radio

Member
Apr 24, 2012
178
A lazy question here. I've read about the bad thermostats, but not in much depth. Is this only for the 4.2 L, or does this happen with the 5.3 L also!
 

harveyfam2001

Member
Aug 24, 2012
42
Our temp gauge on the dash consistently reads one or two ticks to the right of 210. Does this mean the t-stat is bad? It does go down a tick when cruising at 70.

Also, when you change the t-stat aren't you supposed to drain the coolant first or is this not necessary?

Pictures would DEFINITELY help! :smile:
 

Dad-O-Matic

Member
Dec 5, 2011
228
harveyfam2001 said:
Our temp gauge on the dash consistently reads one or two ticks to the right of 210. Does this mean the t-stat is bad? It does go down a tick when cruising at 70.

Also, when you change the t-stat aren't you supposed to drain the coolant first or is this not necessary?

Pictures would DEFINITELY help! :smile:

My symptoms were the same as yours, which leads you to believe it's not too bad. However, as stated before, the gauge lies to you.

When I looked at the actual data with my Torque app, the temp was all over the place, dropping down to 175* and bouncing back up to 210* within 15 seconds. Based on the rapid rate of change, it looked like a sensor issue. But I figured I'd replace both to eliminate both possibilities.

I just had the mechanic replace both because he was already there, the only extra cost was for the t-stat ($29) and I didn't want to take it in twice. I would've done it myself but we were going on a trip and I didn't have the time.

You'll definitely lose some coolant when you replace it.
 

harveyfam2001

Member
Aug 24, 2012
42
Dad-O-Matic said:
My symptoms were the same as yours, which leads you to believe it's not too bad. However, as stated before, the gauge lies to you.

When I looked at the actual data with my Torque app, the temp was all over the place, dropping down to 175* and bouncing back up to 210* within 15 seconds. Based on the rapid rate of change, it looked like a sensor issue. But I figured I'd replace both to eliminate both possibilities.

I just had the mechanic replace both because he was already there, the only extra cost was for the t-stat ($29) and I didn't want to take it in twice. I would've done it myself but we were going on a trip and I didn't have the time.

You'll definitely lose some coolant when you replace it.

So you're saying my t-stat or the temp sensor is bad?
 

Sparky

Member
Dec 4, 2011
12,927
Generally it is a good idea to just replace both when you're in there. It's a little hard to get to so why do it twice.
 

Dad-O-Matic

Member
Dec 5, 2011
228
Sparky said:
Generally it is a good idea to just replace both when you're in there. It's a little hard to get to so why do it twice.

:iagree: The generally accepted method is to remove the alternator to get to the t-stat and sensor, so you might as well replace both and call it good. It'd suck to replace the t-stat, button it up and then find out it was the sensor and do it all over again. I paid about $30 a piece for the parts on Amazon, cheap insurance to replace both.
 

meerschm

Member
Aug 26, 2012
1,079
Glad I found you all from the OS :smile: I have had a few issues on my 03 I6 TB which has just over 143k miles on it. I picked this up new, but now drive only for longer trips with the wife and stepson and gear ( beach stuff or snow skis) the Check engine lite came on during one of these trips this spring, and I troubleshot by activating OnStar, and having them read/troubleshoot the trouble. code reported had me check coolant, and noticing the temp gauge on dash was a bit low, I changed the thermostat. I ordered the sensor too, (from Rock Auto) but did not change it, because I did not have the right socket. i did have fun moving the alternator around. anyway, fast forward to early July, drove to Cape cod and on the way, it was over 100 degrees, and in traffic the AC would cut out. while up there, noticed the water pump crapped out, and being 500 miles from home had the local garage change the water pump. they only charged me $500 and kept the screws that attach the fan faring to the radiator. after I got back, i had a the local firestone place (who sold me a lifetime alignment) charge the AC by weight and include leak check. I was back to the Firestone place a few ,more times. noted the temp gauge bumped up on the trip uphill in the mid 90s, so i changed the fan clutch. (another story, but not too bad) I changed the shocks and struts, and since I used the monroe with springs, let them check the alignment. they told me the toe in was out but tie rods were frozen ( which I verified while changing them, i am the proud owner of a Leslie tie rod tool set), also changed sway bar ends and the front and rear brakes. along the way the fuel pump crapped out, rusted and leaking. sprayed gas all over the inside of the recyling place where I dropped off the struts and disks. mostly cause i had just filled the tank, and was three days from a beach trip, I had it towed to the dealer, having read someone had consideration from GM for part of the repair last year (on the OS, I think) they only charged me $1800, including fuel filter, lines and the new pump. the tech tried to talk me into also having them replace the drive shaft, since it is a bit rusty, and would have made his job to drop the gas tank easier! I could not find any report of anyone who broke a drive shaft driving on the road, so told him to stay the heck away from the drive shaft. (estimate was another $900 and five days to ship)

anyway, the trip to the beach was only in 90 degree weather, and for the most part, the ac was ok, but I did note that it did cut out in slow traffic, and when it did, the dash temp gauge bumped up a few notches. I will take the TB this weekend and monitor the temps on this trip. I picked up an OBKLinkSX and ScanWiz from scantool.net. they have some more expensive software and modules required to read all the fan readings, but i am on the fence whether I want to pay for the software upgrade. I now think perhaps I should have changed the temp sensor. someone suggested overconcentrated coolant could cause trouble. perhaps the waterpump guy put straight dexcool in. should I check the specific gravity of the coolant? I think the AC could just be cutting out because it thinks the engine is too warm. either that, or the compressor craps out in the heat. since the temp gauge has started to indicate high temps when the AC kicks out, I think it may be coolant is getting too warm. I also have an IR thermometer I will take along and check the real temp if it acts too warm. I do not expect it to get much over 90, so this may have to wait till the spring, unless it really quits. I suspect the radiator may be clogged, but not sure and am getting tired of random part changing. anyway, thanks for reading. glad I figured out where you guys went.

my TB is turning into a hobby. I am on the one hand pissed I have had to do all this work, but on the other hand, I like the wrench turning. would be more fun if I did not have to keep my tools in the basement. I have put more into this thing than it is worth, cash wise, but should be good to go if I can figure out this coolant/ac issue. ( I probably should change the transmission cooler lines, they look a bit corroded.)
 

Uncle Blazer

Member
Dec 8, 2011
263
Going to be taking on this project as soon as a get a free weekend (hopefully yet this month). Is it recomended that the cooling system be flushed during this process? Would that involve anything more than a fill and drain?

Thanks y'all.
UB
 

Sparky

Member
Dec 4, 2011
12,927
If it hasn't been done yet I'd go ahead and drain the system, change the stat/sensor, then refill. Normally anything more than a drain and refill isn't needed.
 

6716

Member
Jul 24, 2012
822
Yeah, I made a pretty big mess when I just popped the hose off at the T-stat. Not sure which hose would be best to remove to drain the system, but any attempt to put the right sized catch basin under an easily accessed hose will make you happier than going with whatever spills out of the T-stat spot.
 

McGMT

Member
Jun 17, 2012
621
6716 said:
Yeah, I made a pretty big mess when I just popped the hose off at the T-stat. Not sure which hose would be best to remove to drain the system, but any attempt to put the right sized catch basin under an easily accessed hose will make you happier than going with whatever spills out of the T-stat spot.

I just got done changing mine, I popped off the bottom rad hose just enough to start flowing, then took off the rad cap and caught it all with my oil drain pan...
 

Wooluf1952

Member
Nov 20, 2011
2,663
Milwaukee, Wisconsin
You can also siphon a lot of the coolant out thru the radiator fill opening before removing the hose.

Takes longer, but makes less of a mess.
 

Jayman

Member
Mar 4, 2012
96
MichEnvoyGuy said:
Recently Ive been on GMTnation pissing and moaning about my once stellar (//sarcasm) mpg's gone to the crapper in my 2002 Envoy. I replaced the O2 sensor, inflated my tires to 36psi, checked everything under the sun. Im still getting 16.5 mpg city OR highway! I used to get 20.5avg on the highway easy. A recent thread on t-stat's here got me to thinkin'...

I know this is an older thread. After a search I'm considering this job due to bad mileage after trying everything else as well. My question for you, did you end up getting back your average of 20.5 on the highway? I believe that's what prompted this procedure for you.

Thank you in advance!
 

MichEnvoyGuy

Original poster
Member
Dec 3, 2011
522
Jayman said:
I know this is an older thread. After a search I'm considering this job due to bad mileage after trying everything else as well. My question for you, did you end up getting back your average of 20.5 on the highway? I believe that's what prompted this procedure for you.

Thank you in advance!

No problem.

After I replaced the thermostat, tightened my exhaust manifold and replaced my O2 sensor THEN my highway mileage went back up to 20+ mpg. Heck, after my PCM4Less tune, I averaged 22mpg (only once) on a 4 hour highway trip going 75mph. The trailvoy gas gods were on my side that day :biggrin:

Ive since sold my Envoy, but I had the truck for 8 years and did all of the work myself. I now can only serve as a warning to others with t360's. Haha jk.
 

Jayman

Member
Mar 4, 2012
96
MichEnvoyGuy said:
No problem.

After I replaced the thermostat, tightened my exhaust manifold and replaced my O2 sensor THEN my highway mileage went back up to 20+ mpg. Heck, after my PCM4Less tune, I averaged 22mpg (only once) on a 4 hour highway trip going 75mph. The trailvoy gas gods were on my side that day :biggrin:

Ive since sold my Envoy, but I had the truck for 8 years and did all of the work myself. I now can only serve as a warning to others with t360's. Haha jk.

Appreciate it. I've already changed the O2's so I'm hoping...
 

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