Slight hesitation/vibration at idle

seadoojetski

Original poster
Member
Dec 5, 2023
2
Michigan
Hey my name is Parker. I just joined. After looking through a variety of threads on here I cannot pinpoint a possible answer.

2004 GMC Envoy SLT 4.2 I6
Everything stock
All Spark plugs replaced (ACDelco 41-103)
All Coils replaced (Delphi)
Oil changed
Throttle Body cleaned in February 2023
Exhaust manifold replaced in October 2023 (got rid of ticking sound under acceleration)

No SES light (other than a random misfire that occurred for 2 days and mysteriously went away before the coils and spark plugs were replaced)

When idling (gear does not matter) the engine runs normally but sounds almost like it is missing (a sort of thud/vibration) every few seconds. I checked the fuel trims and the STFT is around 4% and LTFT at -15% while stopped. While around 45 mph they are -5.5% and -7% respectively. O2 sensor bank 1 oscillates rapidly between 0.03 and 0.9 V and O2 sensor bank 2 around 0.7 V steadily. Trying to get any leads on where to proceed with diagnosis instead of throwing more parts at it. Thanks for the help.

Parker
 

mrrsm

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Oct 22, 2015
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Welcome to GMT Nation...

Eight Months of Driving might have allowed a the TB to get Gummed Up again. Replace your Air Filter and repeat the "Throttle Body Cleaning" as per these Links and see if this smooths things out a bit more at idle and Red Light Stops:



It would not hurt to run a Big Bottle of Chevron Techron through the Gas Tank as well. The only other thing I can think of (besides it being caused by having a Bad Tank of Gas) would be to have *Sketchy Commutators* inside of the Electric Fuel Pump that will look like THIS if they are missing spots in the electrical pattern.

THIS
is what a Bad or Dying Fuel Pump looks like on a PICO-Scope Version 6 Automotive Software to Laptop Screen using a Fuse Loop, a Low Amp Clamp and the "O" Scope with emphasis on just how Non-Invasive and Revealing THIS Diagnostic REALLY is...:>)

BADFUELPUMPWAVEFORM.jpg

THIS is what a GOOD Known Fuel Pump Wave Form Looks Like:

GOODKNOWNFUELPUMPWAVEFORM.jpg

THIS is a Side By Side:

BADVSGSOODFUELPUMPWAVRFORM.jpg

Eric "O" from SMA shows How to Do This Test:


Visit THIS GMT Nation Link for Information and Training on using Inexpensive Oscilloscopes:


One Last Video...and THIS one touches upon issues with Coil Over Plug circumstances where you can get a *Fish-Bite Misfire* that can have an unusual Cause and Origin. Bear in mind that if any of your EFIs are also *Sketchy* ...this can lead to Excessively LEAN Fuel - Air Combustion Issues that can STRESS the Secondary Side of the COP to MUCH Higher Voltages and Over-Heat and Oscillate Back into the Primary Side of the Coil(s). Eric "O" and Ivan "The Man From PHAD" (Pine Hollow Auto Diagnostics) also show "How To TEST COPs Using a DMM".

Short(s) in the Fine Wire Windings of the Secondary Coil Side can lead to Carbon Tracing on the COP Rubber Boot(S) and Misfires where the electrical path exits the normal one leading into the Spark Plug Gap and shorts out externally to the Combustion Chamber ... Destroying the Coil(s). Also... Poor Fuel Pump Performance can make the EFIs *dribble* Fuel from the Nozzles-Pintles instead of Atomizing and Misting it into the Intake Head Ports ... and this can lead to additional Misfire issues since Liquid Fuel Will NOT Burn:

 
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mrrsm

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Oct 22, 2015
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DAMMIT!... Forgot One More THING.... Low Idle *Shudder* from having BAD MOTOR MOUNTS... (which probably lead to your Exhaust Manifold (Cracked Cast Iron ) and issues with Broken Bolts due to excessive Engine Block & 4L60E *Torque Rolling* when going up and down in RPM and whenever Shifting Gears).
 
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Mooseman

Moderator
Dec 4, 2011
25,355
Ottawa, ON
Is it a steady 10hz vibration only at idle? If so, that's usually the engine mounts.
 

Mooseman

Moderator
Dec 4, 2011
25,355
Ottawa, ON
You should scan for codes as you may have some pending that have not triggered the SES yet.

O2 sensor bank 1 oscillates rapidly between 0.03 and 0.9 V and O2 sensor bank 2 around 0.7 V steadily.
There aren't two "banks" on the I6 4.2. Sensor 1 is upstream, sensor 2 is downstream of the cat. From your description, both seem to be operating correctly.

I checked the fuel trims and the STFT is around 4% and LTFT at -15% while stopped.
The LTFT would seem to suggest that you aren't getting enough air as its pulling back fuel. Or it's overfuelling. Maybe leaky injectors? or bad pressure regulator leaking into the intake?
 
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seadoojetski

Original poster
Member
Dec 5, 2023
2
Michigan
when you say that you have no misses after the plug / coil, are you going by the dash light or reading the counts?
So i just rescanned with my BlueDriver and i have P0300 (random misfire). I guess it was not severe enough to set the MIL. Next steps I think are to clean the throttle body and check the intake manifold bolts. Any other suggestions with this new finding?
 
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mrrsm

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You have to try to isolate the area of the Air Intake System where Un-Regulated Air is escaping the Detection of the Sensors that control it and regulate the right amount of Fuel Spray to *MIX* in with it. THIS Engine is NOT controlled by means of Fuel Regulation.

So anything in the Air Stream that is *Sneaking in any EXTRA Oxygen* that also manages to bypass the ability of the PCM and/or BCM to Sense and Control things for the BEST possible measurable Stoichi-O-Metric Balance of 14.7 Parts of Oxygen to 1 Part Fuel Ratio ...will *Bump* a P-0300 LEAN CONDITIONS Code....and then?.... JUST WATCH THE MISFIRES COUNT UP!

Start at the Very FRONT of the Motor ... and look for the following potential problem areas:

(1) Damaged - LOOSE PCV Elbow Hose under the Air Plenum (Or a Loose Brake Boost Hose?).
(2) Loose S/S Clamps holding the Plenum Air Box to the Throttle Body. (Collapsed Air Filter?)
(3) Loosened Trapped 10mm Fasteners arrayed around the Intake Manifold.
(4) Loose or Poorly installed MAP Sensor, located at the Upper Rear of the IM.
(5) Stuck Open SAIS Solenoid (if SAIS is part of your 2004 Engine Management System).
(6) Rodents Chewing on Harness Wiring and Connectors can cause Intermittent Problems.
(7) FLATTENED OUT Three (Six Ports) Figure "8" Intake Manifold Gaskets. They should be *PLUMP* enough to Seal Properly.

Caution: Use ONLY 89 Inch Pounds of Tightening Force on the Ten IM Trapped Fasteners!

s-l640.jpg


Traces of Motor Oil Dripping Down below the Intake Manifold Flange on the Driver's Side of the Motor are a Sure Sign that the Intake Manifold Gaskets are allowing Motor Oil ingested from the Upper Engine in through the PCV Elbow and Air Plenum then into the Throttle Body and down inside each Intake Port Runner to seep past the Failing or LOOSE IM Gaskets. If Motor OIL can Seep and Drain OUT... then Un-Regulated Air can get SUCKED IN.

What is NOT obvious is that the IM is partially held in Balance by the Weight of the Throttle Body on One Side... and diagonally... by the Weight of the Cast Aluminum PCM bolted on at four places on the outside of the Intake Manifold on the Other Side. The Black Plastic Intake Manifold tends to Rock Back and Forth in between these Two Masses; especially during times of "Idling in Park" or when "Stopped in Gear at Red Lights".


This tends to Wear Out and FLATTEN the ordinarily "PLUMP" Intake Manifold Gaskets over as much as 240,000 Miles of activity. The Contact between the Intake Manifold's Plastic Flanges and the Solid Aluminum Ports on the outside of the Engine Head are NOT "Solid State". The Black Plastic Intake Manifold Literally FLOATS upon the "PLUMP" IM Gaskets and the Rubber Grommets surrounding the 10 Trapped IM Fasteners!

When this happens... these motions can cause a Pendulum-like action to ensue that will either relieve the *squeeze* pressure on One Side or increase the *squeeze" pressure of the Old IM Gaskets on the Other Side (Top or Bottom) especially when Idling on BAD MOTOR MOUNTS. Thus, this Motion of the Intake Manifold is in Reaction to that "10 Herz Engine Vibration" @Mooseman mentioned as THE Big Indicator of having Bad Motor Mounts.

THIS is precisely why most "Idle Stumbling" and the *Shuddering* is so much more in evidence under these two circumstances because the Engine is also operating UNDER THE GREATEST VACUUM AT IDLE ...and NOT when traveling at Highway Speeds at Much Higher RPM. And, because it's a TOTALLY Asymmetric Phenomena... the Intake Manifold Air Seals can be Leaking Un-Metered Air into the Engine from anywhere around All Six IM FLATTENED Gasket Port Locations.

Diagnostic Approach:

These Points of Failure can be discovered by either using a Can of Spray Starting Fluid (or Propane) and VERY Judiciously and Carefully Spraying this Highly Flammable Stuff around the places mentioned in 1-6 above... while keeping an ABC Fire Extinguisher close at hand and while performing this Test on the Idling SUV ...Out Of Doors... Well away from People, Places, Pets and any ...Curious, Nosy On-Lookers.

If at any time during this exercise, you happen to notice an Increase In Engine RPM... the Leak Point is likely located closest to the Spray Concentration. If you are doing this Test with Propane... be advised that it will NOT take very long to saturate and accumulate in sufficient amounts under the hood to become Explosive in and around anything that is either *Sparking* or... Incandescently HOT. So...Beware letting "TOO Much of a Good Thing" get the best of you.
 
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budwich

Member
Jun 16, 2013
2,052
kanata
So i just rescanned with my BlueDriver and i have P0300 (random misfire). I guess it was not severe enough to set the MIL. Next steps I think are to clean the throttle body and check the intake manifold bolts. Any other suggestions with this new finding?
I think you need to look further.... :smile:
You are looking at a "fault code" that is somewhat "generic" in pointing out that there is a "symptom of misfiring". However, it does NOT tell the whole story. You need to look at real time data / history counts for each cylinder to see if there is "more to the story". In short, your trims are telling you that the system is detecting "richness" and thus is trying to force "leaness" by trimming down (ie. negative trims). The likely reason for this is "unspent fuel" because of misfiring ... maybe. Of course, the reason for the misfiring isn't specified... but since you changed the "firing components", as you stated, you need to look elsewhere... but looking at the misfire counts might help narrow the search.
 
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Mooseman

Moderator
Dec 4, 2011
25,355
Ottawa, ON
If your scanner is capable, look at the live data for misfires as they happen. If it's more than one, it'll just throw p0300 but you could see which ones are at fault. Could be two coils failing or something else randomly happening.
 

mrrsm

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Oct 22, 2015
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Well Worth Watching the FULL Video:

 

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