Should I re-do brake pad bedding procedure?

[Capote]

So I tried bedding in my new brake pads, did I think 2 45mph-15mph's, followed by 7 60mph-15mph's. I wasn't as hard on the brakes as I probably should of been, but it was for sure a bit more than moderate. I was then able to cruise for 15min without using the brakes. Got back and only the inner-most portion of 4 rotors has that gray look you want when bedding in rotors with no machining marks visible; but the rest of the rotor face has machining marks still and is lacking that gray color you want. You can see an obvious contrast.
Only time I smelled any hot brakes was when I was already parked and up close to the wheels. I don't think I was aggressive enough. Should I try another bedding session or just let the rest of the rotor face bed naturally with moderate/normal braking? I'm concerned about brake shudder in the future due to an uneven layer of brake pad deposits.

 

[Matt]

Redo it like this:

That's how I did mine and I haven't had a problem.

 

[littleblazer]

Mine was a bit different than that. I believe it was 6 stops from 50 to 5 (agressive) then let it cool and do the 35 to 5. I actually faded the brakes when I did that but it worked perfect.

 

[Capote]

If your brakes fade during it, that's a good sign. I think I'm gonna do 60mph-15mph again, but this time only do it 5 times, then do another 4 of 75mph-15mph. That should really get the brakes cooking. And I'll be sure to be more aggressive with the brakes, to the point just before ABS kicks in. The route I took was a few miles of smooth stretched road with a convenient round-about at the end. Brakes will cool off before I even reach it of I cruise at like 50mph.

 

[littleblazer]

I did it with both pedals to the floor. But the road I used is only a mile and a half so I had to do creative coasting to not come to a stop at the traffic light at the end of it.

 

[Chickenhawk]

All good advice. You don't need to get the brakes absolutely cooking. Raybestos, who manufactures the police-pursuit brakes (that we can buy for our Trailblazers from NAPA, called the Adaptive One pads) recommend a couple of gentle stops from 60 to warm up the pads, and then three aggressive stops from 60 to 5MPH. Then drive for 10 minutes without touching the brakes. (I like to stop just to the point of the ABS kicking in, and never let it come to a complete stop.)

You actually won't always get nice even colour across the entire face, especially with grooved rotors.

Also, be aware that those grooved rotors will be prone to delaminating the surface in a few years if you are in high rust areas.

Bedding brake pads is not as critical as it once was, especially when the cost of rotors these days makes machining the old rotors not even worth the trouble. But it will give you good braking right out of the gate, and - just as important - it will show you how incredibly impressive our brakes are when they need to be. Even in an emergency, most people don't use the full capability of their braking system. Our system may have a bit of a "softer" feel, and sometimes a lack of initial "bite" with some brake pads, but when you hammer on the brakes, your eyeballs will stretch forward. (Tie down any cargo, by the way.) LOL.

 

[Capote]

a couple of gentle stops from 60 to warm up the pads, and then three aggressive stops from 60 to 5MPH. Then drive for 10 minutes without touching the brakes. (I like to stop just to the point of the ABS kicking in, and never let it come to a complete stop.)

Yeah that seems to be the most followed method.


@Matt @littleblazer @Chickenhawk After driving a bit more today, the brake pedal is a tiny tiny bit squishy, wasn't as obvious before with my old rotors due to brake shudder. Would explain why I wasn't braking as hard last night maybe when I was bedding the pads? I'll bleed the brakes this weekend and just do it again.

 

[littleblazer]

Get the abs to kick in. That should get rid of the softness. No matter what I've done my pedal is like a sponge. The envoy is firm but my truck is soft. When I drive a truck with a firm pedal the first stop is always fun. But I agree. When it's to the floor she stops in a hurry.

 

[Capote]

Get the abs to kick in. That should get rid of the softness. No matter what I've done my pedal is like a sponge. The envoy is firm but my truck is soft. When I drive a truck with a firm pedal the first stop is always fun. But I agree. When it's to the floor she stops in a hurry.

Perhaps the spongy feeling is natural then? I'll still bleed the brakes though, the fluid has never been bled since I've owned it to be honest.. Better off just getting some fresh fluid all throughout.

 

[Mooseman]

I've used the 30-30-30 method. 30 almost stops from 30mph with 30 seconds in between. That one is from Bendix.

I always found the brakes on the '02 to be mushy. Bled them multiple times, including once by the dealer to bleed the ABS, and replaced the master cylinder, same thing. Could be because of the aluminum calipers but like @Chickenhawk said, it braked like there was no tomorrow. The '06 Saab and the '07 TB, with the iron calipers, are real solid and brake just as well.

A fluid flush would be good with 13 year old fluid possibly in there now. Can only help.

 

[Capote]

I've used the 30-30-30 method. 30 almost stops from 30mph with 30 seconds in between. That one is from Bendix.

I always found the brakes on the '02 to be mushy. Bled them multiple times, including once by the dealer to bleed the ABS, and replaced the master cylinder, same thing. Could be because of the aluminum calipers but like @Chickenhawk said, it braked like there was no tomorrow. The '06 Saab and the '07 TB, with the iron calipers, are real solid and brake just as well.

A fluid flush would be good with 13 year old fluid possibly in there now. Can only help.

Hmm had no idea the later year GMT360's had Iron Calipers, interesting.
I can only hope that the previous owner or owners along my truck's lifetime had brought it in for routine maintenance and atleast once that the brake fluid was flushed during one of those visits lol. It is very dark though..

 

[Mooseman]

Never assume anything!

 

[Reprise]

Pretty sure you can get a test kit for the brake fluid - it uses test strips, and measures amount of copper in ppm. I don't remember the limits, but I remember the local Firestone reporting it in one of my Exploders when I took it in for a check of what I'd need to R&R. It definitely needed a change of fluid.

On the mushy / soft feel on initial travel - I have never driven a GM product that *wasn't* that way, to be honest (and I've had a few). And I didn't fear the vehicle wouldn't stop - it just has a soft pedal at the top. Hondas are the same way - soft at the top. Fords (at least the older ones) were the ones with the touchy pedal, IME.

One other thing that GM / Honda brakes seem to have in common - under really heavy use, they will exhibit fade pretty badly. However, with the superior quality pads all of us tend to install, I'll bet the brakes in those vehicles are then more fade-resistant.

After I get my suspension done, or rather, 'while', I'll probably put new rotors / pads on, and then I can see for myself how the 'good' pads behave.

 

[Tiggerr]

Old brake hoses will cause mushy feel too... they get old and expand more than they should... new set wouldn't hurt after all those miles/years...
Front and rear...

 

[Capote]

Old brake hoses will cause mushy feel too... they get old and expand more than they should... new set wouldn't hurt after all those miles/years...
Front and rear...

I'd really like to upgrade to steel-braided lines, but I don't know of any made for anything, but TBSS's.

 

[littleblazer]

The Sierra and escalade have a slight mush at the very top but then it's rock hard. Mine is mush all the way. I only get real push back around the floor. It really feels like you have NO brakes but I've done all I can to fix that. The envoy is firm. Both stop equally as well. The shop had a dodge 1500. If you looked at that pedal it would brake. Zero travel on that thing it will launch you through the windshield on a light tap lol.

Trying to get back on topic, you do the rebed yet @Capote ?

 

[Mooseman]

Unfortunately, only SS/iron calipers can get the stainless lines. Someone had tried to fit them to the older AL calipers and even tried to get the company to make a set for him and it didn't fit. That thread is in here somewhere.

 

[Capote]

Trying to get back on topic, you do the rebed yet @Capote ?

No, just waiting for the weekend. Too tired after work to want to go travel down that long road I used. It's out of the way too.

 

[Blckshdw]

Unfortunately, only SS/iron calipers can get the stainless lines.

Wondering if those SS sets would work on an EXT/5.3? Do we know which part doesn't fit on the SWB 4.2s?

 

[littleblazer]

Wondering if those SS sets would work on an EXT/5.3? Do we know which part doesn't fit on the SWB 4.2s?

I think it is just where the line mounts to the caliper iirc. From what I remember the line was too short unless where the steel line ends is also in a different location.

 

[Chickenhawk]

If you have never replaced the fluid and bled the brakes, definitely do it. To solve a softer pedal than usual after bleeding, find a gravel road and hammer on the brakes to the point of ABS engagment. Do this a couple times and the pedal will be as firm as it once was.

I like using a pressure bleeder instead of a suction bleeder because there is less chance of air getting past the threads. I use the Motive brake bleeder, and here is a tip: for easier cleanup, use the Motive dry. Instead of filling it with brake fluid, just use it to pressurize the reservoir. You will need to top up the reservoir for every wheel, but this is made up by not having to clean the Motive container afterwards. Just be careful you never drain the brake reservoir dry.

 

[Tiggerr]

I'd really like to upgrade to steel-braided lines, but I don't know of any made for anything, but TBSS's.

I've seen them around for the regular variety of TB..etc... idk if they work... proud of them at $100 for the fronts...the rears definatley do not work they are a different setup on the SS rear end...unless of course you swap an SS rear in there....

Even a new set of OE rubber lines should be an improvement over the old ones though.....

 

[Capote]

I've seen them around for the regular variety of TB..etc... idk if they work... proud of them at $100 for the fronts...the rears definatley do not work they are a different setup on the SS rear end...unless of course you swap an SS rear in there....

Even a new set of OE rubber lines should be an improvement over the old ones though.....

You have seen them for the front?

 

[$ Khalid ! 9130]

All good advice. You don't need to get the brakes absolutely cooking. Raybestos, who manufactures the police-pursuit brakes (that we can buy for our Trailblazers from NAPA, called the Adaptive One pads) recommend a couple of gentle stops from 60 to warm up the pads, and then three aggressive stops from 60 to 5MPH. Then drive for 10 minutes without touching the brakes. (I like to stop just to the point of the ABS kicking in, and never let it come to a complete stop.)

You actually won't always get nice even colour across the entire face, especially with grooved rotors.

Also, be aware that those grooved rotors will be prone to delaminating the surface in a few years if you are in high rust areas.

Bedding brake pads is not as critical as it once was, especially when the cost of rotors these days makes machining the old rotors not even worth the trouble. But it will give you good braking right out of the gate, and - just as important - it will show you how incredibly impressive our brakes are when they need to be. Even in an emergency, most people don't use the full capability of their braking system. Our system may have a bit of a "softer" feel, and sometimes a lack of initial "bite" with some brake pads, but when you hammer on the brakes, your eyeballs will stretch forward. (Tie down any cargo, by the way.) LOL.

I totally agree on the awesome brakes on our cars. Happened just recently when I was driving along the highway at 80 KM (50 Miles) and suddenly in front of me traffic had come to a stop, just hit the brakes and boom I was down to zero. I was more worried about the car behind me as my brake lights aren't working atm.

Back on topic my TBs pedal is quite firm, I compare it to my Dads Yukon, and Yukon one is quite soft, but obviously when you push it a little more it stops as required.

 

[Tiggerr]

You have seen them for the front?

Yeah on fleabay and somewhere else too...think these were them
http://m.ebay.com/itm/Stoptech-Stainless-Steel-Brake-Lines-950-62013-FRONT-for-Buick-Chevy-Isuzu-/192173007861?fits=Model:Rainier&hash=item2cbe6763f5:g:hJkAAOSw~y9ZBRTz&_trkparms=pageci%3Ae2b37805-3480-11e7-ba11-74dbd180fa18%7Cparentrq%3Aebe62c9115b0a994738177e9fffd2577%7Ciid%3A2

If you punch that part# into Amazon they come up too...
They're supposed to fit my 6cyl Rainier so they should fit any swb I'd assume...if they fit at all...

 

[Chickenhawk]

I did some research on these Stop Tech stainless brake lines. It seems lots of people report an improved "feel" but I have yet to read any back-to-back tests of stainless steel lines versus stock rubber lines, aside from anecdotal evidence comparing new stainless steel lines to old rubber lines. I also suspect the lines and hardware are made in China as there seems to be some people reporting that the banjo bolt strips easily, and the torque settings are less for the Stop Tech bolt than the factory bolt.

Anyone actually tried these stainless steel lines to see if they really DID firm the feel, or if it was a just a seat-of-the-pants feeling ... the same one you get when your truck runs better after a car wash or oil change.

I think a lot of people run these lines for the look, and just THINK it improves pedal feel. My concerns are that going to a stainless steel brake line means you are going from rubber brake hoses that flex in any temperature, to Teflon hoses (which are what all stainless steel lines are lined with) and that means they are more fragile and prone to damage (hence, the stainless steel casing.) The stainless steel is coated but if that coating every wears away, the stainless can degrade and cut the Teflon inner hose. I also worry about the quality of the aftermarket hardware fittings and joins. I certainly would never run stainless steel lines with Teflon lining over OEM rubber lines in a Manitoba winter!

Like many other aftermarket parts that imitate race car parts, they aren't "better" in any way; they are for the look. Race cars run stainless steel lines to prevent a brake hose getting cut from debris on the track. They don't need to last years because they get replaced at least every season. They also rarely race Formula One in minus 40 temperatures.

Sorry, but in my opinion, stainless steel lines are a solution looking for a problem, and buying them for the looks means compromising their actual longevity and performance. I see them as the same as cross-drilled rotors - good quality new cross-drilled rotors are better than old worn out rotors, but a good quality solid rotor will always perform better than a cross-drilled rotor. The differences in performance are marginal however, so if people buy them for the looks, that's fine. But as for the stainless steel brake lines, I would NEVER trust the aftermarket hardware parts and I would NEVER have stainless steel over Teflon brake lines in a minus 40 winter.

 

[Tiggerr]

I did some research on these Stop Tech stainless brake lines. It seems lots of people report an improved "feel" but I have yet to read any back-to-back tests of stainless steel lines versus stock rubber lines, aside from anecdotal evidence comparing new stainless steel lines to old rubber lines. I also suspect the lines and hardware are made in China as there seems to be some people reporting that the banjo bolt strips easily, and the torque settings are less for the Stop Tech bolt than the factory bolt.

Anyone actually tried these stainless steel lines to see if they really DID firm the feel, or if it was a just a seat-of-the-pants feeling ... the same one you get when your truck runs better after a car wash or oil change.

I haven't tried these specific lines on our platform. I have used this type of lines before on other vehicles/motorcycles. They definitely give a better/firmer feel...
Idk about any true improvement in stoping distance or braking power...

 

[mrrsm]

This is a little OT due to the vehicle I worked on yesterday being the Lil' Woman's 2013 Nissan Altima S... but the principles seem to be universal as the explanation given by PowerStop Engineers is exact to those mentioned here first by @Matt :

https://www.powerstop.com/brake-pad-break-in-procedure/

This is new "Braking Technology with Bling" is also available for trucks and SUVs:

... Not only that... the inner Brake Pad Box Liner had a very much more complete description about WHY and HOW these Break In processes are so necessary... so I snapped these images:







The top of the line products I'm putting in are their Z23 Evolution Sport full kit with Carbon Fiber & All Ceramic Pads and Silver-Zinc Coated, single plate, Slotted and Cross Drilled Rotors. The one thing worth mentioning is how difficult it always seems to get the dope on how much torque to apply on the lug nuts and in the same way I recently posted that the data could be found in the thick PDF Owners Manual l for the Silverado... The Nippon manual ALSO provided the data in the like manual... and NOT in the Shop Manuals apparently... 83 Ft Lbs or 112.2 Nm.

Unfortunately... I only only had enough endurance yesterday for the rear wheels and I forgot to install that damned Rubber Plug that gives access to adjusting the Emergency Brake. I don't want to have to jack up the car and remove the McGuard Security Lug Plug and have to do the rest of the added labor... so unless someone tells me that the innards will fill up with mud and water if I don't put it in... I'll let this one go until the tires need changing out.

EDIT:

In order to have the least amount of interference and distractions during this procedure in our urban location... Earlier, I set my Alarm for 03:30 AM after completing all the Brake Replacement and the most important aspect of doing this was to be sure to apply each of the hard braking actions in the closest proximity possible in the sequence so the Brake Disc and Pads remain HOT as HELL. I caught a lucky break by being able to dodge the Cops and the Dude delivering papers and avoid being observed while engaged in such a weird driving style so early in the morning.

After completing both of the 5@40>10 then 5@35>5. I cruised around without mashing the brake pedal for another 10 Minutes to allow everything enough time to completely cool off. The visual results on All Four Discs was that each platter had a nice, even golden coating of Ceramic and the final slow downs showed with a smooth, quiet and even stopping action with no noise at all and only the need for a very light touch on the Brake Pedal to come to a smooth and easy stop. Nice!

 

[Reprise]

Waking this thread up after almost a year (& almost exactly a year after I last posted in this thread)

I bedded my pads yesterday (Adaptive One on the front; 'regular' NAPA on the rear; new 'standard' rotors all round, and fresh DOT 3)
Also, since my pedal was very soft, post-bleed, I broke out the Tech2 and performed an ABS 'automated' bleed along with an ABS diagnostic cycle. Firmed up the pedal nicely, if I say so myself.

Used a slightly different bedding procedure (eight to ten 40-10mph cycles, per Raybestos, and due to the location / length of the 'road' (which was an empty school lot less than 1mi from my garage). A couple of times, I felt the ABS just starting to kick in and backed off the pedal a little bit. With practice, I could've stopped faster w/o triggering the ABS. But it's been awhile since I've been on a track, and I generally don't push the Voy hard, acceleration-wise (these was probably the fastest off-idle / 40 / 10 cycles I've ever done in the thing...lol...and I could've benefitted from a bigger launch pad for the exercise)

I *did* get the pads cooking - wasn't hard to detect the sweet smell of hot pad resin (ok, not actually 'sweet', but I'm not being literal, either) The only bad thing was after about 3-4 cycles, I started hearing 'squeak...squeak...squeak' from the front - not from the brakes, but most likely the hubs (off-braking, varied with speed). After the 8 runs, I did everything possible to avoid full stoppage w/ the service brake (nothing dangerous) for a good 15min. Then I parked and got out to look at the rotors (I know...should've taken pics...)

Anyway, the fronts had some nice blue coloration, especially in the middle of the contact surface (about 1in wide). I could still see faint manufacturing cross-hatching on the outer edges, but the ridges were gone. No squeaks, squeals or anything amiss from the brakes. They felt 'good'.

As I drove around a bit, I noticed that my braking initialization needed to be altered - I was stopping faster & shorter than I had with the old pads, based on how I came to a stop behind waiting traffic. I'm going to need to wait a little longer between initializing braking - and that tells me that the new brakes are certainly working better than the old ones were, at least (which still had pad life left - I'm only replacing these now because I'm about to embark on a longish towing trip, pulling a 5000 lb 25' trailer through mountain elevations. So stopping is a (bigger) priority than usual (yes, I do have a WDH w/ sway ctrl, and it works wonderfully...I could probably pull to the 7K limit w/o worry from it or the engine.)

As an aside, when I drove the trailer home last month, I did a hard stop at a light from about 45mph - and ended up with about half of the XL Voy fully in the intersection (I did stop straight and didn't jackknife, at least.)

From here, I decided to head out for the 10-60-10 rounds (and 20-80-20) per Raybestos - for police / track applications...For 'street' use, the preceding 40-10 cycles were considered adequate.) Problem was, while the road I was on was one of the most isolated around w/ a 70mph limit, there was still too much traffic where I felt comfy performing brake calisthenics (plus it was dark by this time). A warm spring Saturday night probably had something to do with the increased traffic (you think? )

The couple of times where I did just a 'medium' cycle (65-35, approx) to see how well the brakes worked - they reminded me of the brakes on my S2000, when I would track the car. PLENTY of 'whoa' - no anxiety whatsoever. So now I'm wondering if I even need to go any further -?

For those of you who read this far (thanks) and are brake gurus - I do have a question or two...
Can more than 1 round of bedding be done, and at different times (I know the pads would need to be warmed up before doing the higher mph cycles)? Or, put another way...is there a point at which a bedding sequence should *not* be done on an existing in-service brake setup?

I probably have < 100 miles on the new pads / rotors at this point, and almost all of those miles are highway / light suburban. And with all of that said, I'm pretty happy so far with the Adaptive Ones - I have no worries about being able to stop w/ the trailer in tow, even if my attention lapses for a second and I find myself in a short(er) braking distance scenario.

So far, I'd recommend these pads without reservation (and bedding them as the largely similar methods suggest - pick one and sleep well at night)
Thanks to all who posted in the past regarding proper break-in (@Chickenhawk especially comes to mind for sharing his real-life / work-derived knowledge w/ us)

 

[xavierny25]

I probably have < 100 miles on the new pads / rotors at this point, and almost all of those miles are highway / light suburban.

With 100 miles and driving mostly highway you should be good. I don't see any reason why you should have to do another brake in.

BTW I'll be picking up those pads for my Voy aswell. The EBC pads I got on now are great but the brake dust on my rim/wheels is just to damn much.

 

[Reprise]

For those considering the NAPA brake systems:
- NAPA gives a 10% discount if you order online / pickup in store
- They do sell 'kits', with one SKU for both pads / rotors (you have to see if the combo you want is sold in a kit - no custom selections in 'kits')
No real difference in price, just more convenient.

Front kit (for the LWB; 11" rotors, Adaptive One pads):

• PART # :NBK 7759ADK2

The pad kit was well constructed - hardware fit well, and I didn't have to break out the grinder to trim the mounting tabs, like I've had to do with some other pad kits. Looks like I paid just short of $150 for the kit, after the 10% discount.

Don't forget a small tube of high temp lube for the caliper pins (Permatex 'green' tube). NAPA includes lube in their kit, if you want to use that (I used on the backing surface of the pads).