SOLVED! No Start, Erratic Gauges

[TequilaWarrior]

I'm posting this experience in case anyone else encounters similar conditions.
My 2002 Oldsmobile Bravada 4.2L AWD began giving me weird symptoms that weren't really pointing to anything specific. Yesterday it nearly stalled twice while idling out of my garage, no load, A/C off. Today, it gave me issues starting a couple of times and the gauges were erratic during one of the no-start fits. Then after a 30 or so mile round trip I parked it outside. When I tried to start the car to pull it in the garage the gauges began shaking and pointing at random readings. The speedometer would jump from 0 to 60 to 40 randomly. When I would twist the key to start it the cluster would shut down like it's supposed to. For the first few tries the starter would engage and immediately disengage. Then, that stopped as well. I would just get the erratic gauges with no starter activity. I tried to pull codes and my reader found none. Then I noticed the the SES light wasn't coming on at all. So I put my desulfinator on the battery and let it charge for several hours. When I tried starting the car again, the SES light came on dimly and briefly then went out and again, no starter activity. In desperation, I hooked my wife's car up to mine with jumper cables. At first, I had erratic gauges but after letting it charge for a few minutes the gauges settled down and the SES light came on. It then took only two tries to start the car.... my conclusion.... though my volt meter read a solid 12 volts the battery just didn't have enough amps to power the PCM and starter and was causing my gauges to freak out. I'll be putting in a brand new battery tomorrow.

 

[TJBaker57]

I'm posting this experience in case anyone else encounters similar conditions.
My 2002 Oldsmobile Bravada 4.2L AWD began giving me weird symptoms that weren't really pointing to anything specific. Yesterday it nearly stalled twice while idling out of my garage, no load, A/C off. Today, it gave me issues starting a couple of times and the gauges were erratic during one of the no-start fits. Then after a 30 or so mile round trip I parked it outside. When I tried to start the car to pull it in the garage the gauges began shaking and pointing at random readings. The speedometer would jump from 0 to 60 to 40 randomly. When I would twist the key to start it the cluster would shut down like it's supposed to. For the first few tries the starter would engage and immediately disengage. Then, that stopped as well. I would just get the erratic gauges with no starter activity. I tried to pull codes and my reader found none. Then I noticed the the SES light wasn't coming on at all. So I put my desulfinator on the battery and let it charge for several hours. When I tried starting the car again, the SES light came on dimly and briefly then went out and again, no starter activity. In desperation, I hooked my wife's car up to mine with jumper cables. At first, I had erratic gauges but after letting it charge for a few minutes the gauges settled down and the SES light came on. It then took only two tries to start the car.... my conclusion.... though my volt meter read a solid 12 volts the battery just didn't have enough amps to power the PCM and starter and was causing my gauges to freak out. I'll be putting in a brand new battery tomorrow.

FWIW, When I had similar behaviour I found poor contacts of the ignition switch F to E circuit. That produced intermittent no crank as well as the speedometer and tachometer bouncing all over since those two are directly connected to the PCM and the bad contacts caused the PCM to have an unstable power situation.

 

[TequilaWarrior]

FWIW, When I had similar behaviour I found poor contacts of the ignition switch F to E circuit. That produced intermittent no crank as well as the speedometer and tachometer bouncing all over since those two are directly connected to the PCM and the bad contacts caused the PCM to have an unstable power situation.

Did you simply replace the ignition switch or was there more involved?

 

[TollKeeper]

Sounds like a bad battery to me.. either that, or an alternator.. Or both

My Envoy does that if I leave the ignition on for to long listening to the radio.. And then I am met with a no-start, need a jump.

 

[TJBaker57]

Did you simply replace the ignition switch or was there more involved?

In my case it was most definitely not a battery issue.

Although I actually had a new switch on hand, I am cheap and chose to service the switch instead. I cleaned up the contacts with some fine wet or dry silicon carbide paper, finishing with something like 600 or 800 grade. This is not likely a good long term solution but I'm OK with it.

If inspection of the switch contacts shows degradation the recommended solution should be a new switch.

 

[TequilaWarrior]

Well, post battery installation I got 1 good start and then back to nostart. A not-so-gentle whack with a deadblow hammer to the underside of the steering column and it started. Now I'm thinking ignition switch even though the one in it is only a few years old.

 

[Mooseman]

If it wasn't an ACDelco, then it could be failing again. You might have to try and clean the one you have or try to find an ACDelco, which are getting hard to find.

 

[TJBaker57]

When I had similar behaviour I found poor contacts of the ignition switch F to E circuit

I have to say after thinking on it a bit more that I am not so sure it was the terminal F to terminal E contacts. Could very well have been a different set of ignition switch contacts. The degradation was clear to see though once the switch contact covers were removed.

 

[TequilaWarrior]

Sigh.... I ended up caving in and replacing the ignition switch. I ended up with the same symptoms: erratic gauges and no "SES" light, no start, no crank.

In changing the switch, I checked out previous walkthroughs and the instructions included with the new switch. No previous walkthrough covered the extra wires I have in my ignition. There are 2 extra "pigtails" that lead upwards from the main plug beneath the column. Only by unplugging the one that enters the top of the lock cylinder and pulling some slack in the other was I able to remove the switch. Also, if I were forced to follow the instructions included in the packaging, I'd have noped out of it altogether because they required disconnecting negative battery cable (which I just did a slightly less than big3 upgrade on) AND they required removing the lock cylinder altogether. In fact, I didn't remove my battery cable at all. The only cable I removed was the little pigtail into the top of the lock cylinder. Also, a few of the walkthroughs I reviewed explicitly state that there are no screws in the column cover - that is completely false. There is at least 1 bolt into the top cover from the bottom of the column. It's an inverse torx. I didn't remove it because I broke it off the cover last time I replaced the ignition switch... which, judging by the date codes on it was over 10 years ago.

Now, I get a SES "bounce" when I put the key to "run". I don't recall if that was the behavior beforehand, but suspect it was as every start is confident and nearly immediate. Quite opposite of what it was before replacing the battery and switch.

 

[budwich]

what's a big3 upgrade and how does that coincide with the problem.

 

[TequilaWarrior]

what's a big3 upgrade and how does that coincide with the problem.

Big3 upgrade is upgrading the 3 primary power cables in your car: battery positive to alternator positive, battery negative to body/chassis ground, body/chassis ground to block (or some combination of block and ground). The coincidence occurs in that I did a sorta big3 upgrade during my battery installation - I'd been putting it off for years. I'm loathe to disconnect any battery cables as I added runs from battery positive and battery negative by replacing battery terminals with inserts that allow the addition of ring terminal terminated cables instead of replacing the stock cables altogether. Mine is battery positive to alternator, battery negative to alternator ground and battery negative to body ground and SHOULD result in the same thing. I can also add direct-to-battery wiring for anything now - and intend to rewire my headlights/foglights with relayed harnesses to the battery.

 

[budwich]

just to be clear, you weren't having any issue with "no start" before the big 3 or you have always had the "random no start / weird gage" issue?

somewhat related, have you changed the ignition during the "whole timeframe" or at some time previously? Is it orientated correctly.... possibly out by "one tooth"?

another thing... did you check your battery in terms of cell level... maybe you have a dry / low cell. Get a specific gravity tester and check each cell. Recheck your connections at the starter.

Lastly, when you turn your key to ON, you should ALWAYS get a check engine light happening... if that does not happen, your PCM is not happy ... mostly likely it is not getting the proper voltages appearing on the appropriate pins. Similarily, the IP cluster needs two "stable" power conditions otherwise its not going to be "stable". An easy place is check / watch power at the fuse block for fuse 22 and 24 to see what is happening there.

ADDED: sorry about some of this... rereading the chain of replies, I see you did a battery and ignition switch and although the problem temporarily improved, it still hasn't been solved... right?

 

[budwich]

One other thing... on your "big three"... the positive / red battery cable. How is your vehicle cable designed at the location. On my 2008, there are THREE cables coming off of that connector... alternator, fuse block and starter. I assume yours may be different.... but that "chain of power" is worth completely checking.

ADDED: the hammer "assist" at the steering still points to the ignition switch... are you sure about the position of the switch. There was a recent post from another person where they found the previous switch was out by ONE tooth... they replaced the switch not knowing the switch was not aligned. The result was the same... in this case, sometimes a "dead start" randomly stopping while in the start sequence. The poster ultimately found "significantly" twisting the key would get the start going again which lead to further investigating the "out a tooth" result.

 

[TequilaWarrior]

This particular saga started maybe a month ago. I turned the key and the cluster lights up but no SES light, and gauges are bouncing everywhere. No fuel pump, no crank. Trying a second, third, fourth time with similar results. Then the car started... Odd, but 21 year old car so I wasn't worried about it. Then it happened a few more times. Less than a year ago, my 10 year old son got into my car one evening and left EVERYTHING on... key in "on", interior lights on, amp and radio on... the works... for HOURS. I knew then the battery was not long for this world and it was only a year old at the time. After an exciting jump start (completely melted/burned a set of jumper cables), the battery never had the "oomph" it should have. Over the ensuing year I disabled every feature that I could (perimeter lighting, headlights on after shutdown, even interior lights and my amp) in an attempt to keep the battery as long as possible... I pulled several fuses. Then this "No SES light" stuff started. Jumping it seemed to be the cure, so I figured it must be the battery... so I replaced it. (With an arduous round of arguing with WalMart over the battery replacement policy NOT NEEDING A RECEIPT). In the end I just bought a battery outright at an independent dealer and had them test my existing battery on core turn-in. They said it passed but the AMPS were just not there. With the bad battery out, I took the opportunity to do the big3(ish) upgrade. I am concerned about destroying the blend door actuators so I want to disconnect the battery as little as possible. After the upgrade I inserted the battery and hooked everything up (after pulling the HVAC fuses). The car fired up the first time, confidently. Then, it didn't... the SES light would flicker and the gauges went erratic again. A quick whack to the bottom of the column with a mallet and everything was back to normal... odd, but seemingly effective. I didn't have a single issue for a couple of weeks... then I was in the school pickup line to grab my kids from after-school band... and the car would not freakin' start. I whacked the column at least a half dozen times to get it to fire up before it finally did. I grabbed a new ig switch about 20 minutes later.

Roughly 10 years ago I had an issue with random shutdowns in this car. I would be driving and it would just turn "off".... twist the key and either nothing whatsoever (no gauges, etc...) or it would fire right up. I changed the ig switch then in a futile attempt rectify it. It later turned out to be a loose fuse socket for the PCM. I'm not going to complain about getting 10 years out of a replacement ig switch.

Now the SES light comes on every time I put the key to run... the only thing is that it "bounces".... which I never noticed before. It will light for a brief moment, turn off, and turn back on again. During this time I'll hear a throttle body noise. It's the same noise I get when I use my code reader to reset codes.

As for the ig switch being a tooth off... I'm 100% confident it's in the right orientation. Key behavior has been consistent from the day I bought it... whether it actually "works" or not is what has prompted me to change the ig switch.

 

[TequilaWarrior]

One other thing... on your "big three"... the positive / red battery cable. How is your vehicle cable designed at the location. On my 2008, there are THREE cables coming off of that connector... alternator, fuse block and starter. I assume yours is quite different.... but that "chain of power" is worth completely checking.

Factory battery positive connector sounds identical to yours.... I'm loathe to change any cabling to the starter as I've never seen that go well and the run to the fuse block looks perfect.

 

[budwich]

Factory battery positive connector sounds identical to yours.... I'm loathe to change any cabling to the starter as I've never seen that go well and the run to the fuse block looks perfect.

ok... thanks for the "great info"... sorry if I questioned more that has already been covered. Now the "bounce" has got me as I have never seen such. A key turned to on should always light a solid check engine "forever"... if you leave the key in "ON", the light should stay solid. so related to that, leave the key in on and use the hammer "assist" again, do you get a "bounce" out of the light?

 

[TequilaWarrior]

ok... thanks for the "great info"... sorry if I questioned more that has already been covered. Now the "bounce" has got me as I have never seen such. A key turned to on should always light a solid check engine "forever"... if you leave the key in "ON", the light should stay solid. so related to that, leave the key in on and use the hammer "assist" again, do you get a "bounce" out of the light?

It's just a quick "blip" when I put the key to "on". No bounce when I tap the column.

Anyone else's SES light "bounce" or "blink" when put to the "on" position?

 

[budwich]

more questions.... so when your key is fully turn counter clockwise (fully off, key removal position), what are your dash "observations" as you move the key slowly towards the various positions... there should be the "first position" where, not really a "detent" but where there is a solenoid noise in the steering area ( I think)..... and the battery light shows. Then you get to a first detent where the "battery light" is on but none of the other dash light show (accessory position). Then the next detent is "ON" which causes an "all lights" check with a splash of all lights coming out. NOW, here is what I see, at the time of "all lights check" the check engine does NOT go on, the check engine light shows up shortly there after... maybe half a second or so, then comes on solid BEFORE the all lights test completes... basically showing that indeed all lights are "good". Of course, at this point, the check engine light indicates that the PCM is "happy" and able to function.

What are you seeing on your sequence... especially around that "all lights test" time frame?

 

[TequilaWarrior]

more questions.... so when your key is fully turn counter clockwise (fully off, key removal position), what are your dash "observations" as you move the key slowly towards the various positions... there should be the "first position" where, not really a "detent" but where there is a solenoid noise in the steering area ( I think)..... and the battery light shows. Then you get to a first detent where the "battery light" is on but none of the other dash light show (accessory position). Then the next detent is "ON" which causes an "all lights" check with a splash of all lights coming out. NOW, here is what I see, at the time of "all lights check" the check engine does NOT go on, the check engine light shows up shortly there after... maybe half a second or so, then comes on solid BEFORE the all lights test completes... basically showing that indeed all lights are "good". Of course, at this point, the check engine light indicates that the PCM is "happy" and able to function.

What are you seeing on your sequence... especially around that "all lights test" time frame?

Identical behavior.... save for one point. When key is first put into "all lights test" position the SES light blinks on for a fraction of a second and I hear my throttle body reset immediately followed by the SES light illuminating solidly until I either twist to start or back to accessory.

Perhaps I should reword how I'm describing it.... when put to the "all lights test" position, I hear the fuel pump engage and the SES light comes on but immediately blinks off for a fraction of a second, during that fraction of a second it sounds like my PCM resets (throttle body "blips").