Tiggerr
Member
My "cursed" engine rebuild
- Thread starter Bondo07
- Start date
It died pulling into work. It died when I got home and parked in the driveway. A.c. wasn't on. I'm gonna try to clean the throttle body again. I got a new parts washer I wanna try out. Would that be a bad idea?
Mooseman
Moderator
Very bad. Just use throttle body cleaner and a toothbrush. Air dry. I'd also disconnect the battery again while cleaning just to be sure.
Any codes?
Any codes?
Cel turned off now for some reason. Haven't done the case relearn yet though. Still randomly dies when I stop. Died when I stopped to turn on my way to work, died when I parked. A.c. isn't on. Gonna stop at the parts store tomorrow to run the scanner on it.
It does me no good and it gives me no pleasure in understanding any of what follows... For such a Beautiful Machine to be so absurdly temperamental and in a way... so very delicate...and yet still possess such an enormous propensity for power is very disturbing. Why the GM Engineers decided to imbue this Motor with such a tendency towards Total Failure simply because a handful of sensors can't seem to get along or even effectively manage to adapt their variant findings and keep this engine alive is quite beyond my capacity to understand. Whoever heard of demanding that an Engine be completely replaced for these insane reasons?. What incredible mechanical madness! Oh well... I hope that somewhere in all of this information is a definitive answer that will eventually let you repair and drive this SUV down the road....and not have to feel any unusual behavior from your Motor...or have to look for any Dashboard Warning Lights:
#PI00156C: SES Light with a P1345 or P0016 and a Possible Rough Idle - kw 4.2 camshaft condition control DTC idle intermittent light LL* MIL performance poor repair rough solenoid - (Jan 26, 2005)
Subject: SES Light with a P1345 or P0016 and a Possible Rough Idle
Models: .
The following diagnosis might be helpful if the vehicle exhibits the symptom(s) described in the PI.
Condition/Concern:
Some 2002 - 2004 models that are equipped with the 4.2L (VIN S - RPO LL8) engine may experience a SES Light due to a P0016 or P1345 DTC and a possible rough idle.
Recommendation/Instructions:
If the SI diagnostics do not isolate a cause, the following information may help:
- Control of the Cam Phaser Actuator solenoid is inhibited when a P0016 (04 Model Year) or P1345 (02 - 03 Model Year) DTC is stored.
- If this DTC started after recent internal engine repairs, inspect for proper engine mechanical timing. With the camshaft cover removed and the #1 cylinder at top dead center, make sure that the darkened chain links are lined up with the alignment marks on the exhaust and intake cam sprockets. At this point, J44221 should fit over the rear cam flats and the word Delphi (on the front of the Cam Phaser Actuator sprocket) should be parallel with the front edge of the cylinder head. Note: It may take up to 14 crankshaft revolutions before all timing alignment marks line up with each other.
- Engines built after 2/5/01 include a thin friction washer (P/N 12573950) between the dampener and the crank gear and the torque specification was increased to 110 ft-lbs plus 180 degrees to prevent crankshaft gear and alignment pin damage. If there is any history of the crank dampener bolt ever being loose, the crankshaft gear and alignment pin may be damaged, which can cause these DTCs.
- If a P0016 or P1345 is resetting without any engine performance concerns but the SI diagnostics and the above information did not isolate a cause for the DTC, replace the Cam Phaser Actuator sprocket.
#PIP3659A: SES Light After Internal Engine Repairs Due to DTC P0016 or P1345 - keywords after cam correlation crank DTC induced previous replacement seal since spring timing valve - (Jan 4, 2006)
Subject: SES Light After Internal Engine Repairs Due DTC P0016 or P1345
Models: 2004 Buick Rainier
2002-2004 Chevrolet TrailBlazer
2002-2004 GMC Envoy
2002-2004 Oldsmobile Bravada
with 4.2L Engine (VIN S - RPO LL8)
The following diagnosis might be helpful if the vehicle exhibits the symptom(s) described in this PI.
Condition/Concern:
Depending on the model year, a P0016 or P1345 may be encountered after internal engine repairs that required resetting of the timing chain tensioner or removal and installation of the exhaust camshaft actuator sprocket. This may be the result of a mistimed engine or damaged exhaust camshaft actuator.
Recommendation/Instructions:
If this concern is encountered and the SI diagnostics do not isolate the cause, review the following information and inspect for a damaged exhaust camshaft actuator or mistimed engine as necessary:
- The spline style exhaust camshaft actuator used on 2004 model year and earlier 4.2L engines is designed to operate between 25 degrees of retard and 0 degrees (full advance/rest/clockwise position). There is a stop tab inside of the camshaft actuator that prevents the exhaust cam from advancing beyond the rest position under normal operating conditions. This tab can bend if the exhaust cam/actuator is forced to rotate beyond the rest position (full advance/full clockwise) during internal engine repairs. If this occurs, it may be noted that the reluctor portion of the actuator is a few degrees more advanced (clockwise) than a known good one. With the actuator sprocket in place and the #1 piston at top dead center, it may be noted that the rear cam flat of the exhaust cam is not flat when compared with the rear cam flat of the intake cam. Upon further inspection, it may also be noted that the word Delphi that is on the cam reluctor portion of the actuator is slightly rotated toward the driver side even though the intake cam flat is flat. If this is suspected to be the cause of this concern, it will be necessary to replace the exhaust camshaft actuator again, taking care not to damage it upon reassembly. As mentioned in SI, do not force the camshaft actuator to rotate clockwise upon assembly. If it does not move easily, it is already fully advanced. New camshaft actuators are already packaged in the fully advanced (clockwise) position. This type of damage should not occur on 2005 model year and newer 4.2L engines because they are equipped with a vane style exhaust camshaft actuator, which is designed differently than the spline style actuator.
- If the timing chain tensioner had to be reset, this concern could be the result of incorrect cam to crank timing. As the timing chain tensioner is released, chain slack between the crankshaft and tensioner is eliminated. As the slack is eliminated, it is very easy for the timing chain to shift one tooth at the crankshaft sprocket without being noticed by the technician. If this occurs, it is unlikely to isolate the incorrect cam to crank timing without removing the front cover. When properly timed, the timing marks should line up as shown below once every 14 crankshaft revolutions with the #1 piston at top dead center. If all 3 of these timing marks never line up at the same time, re-time the engine by following SI procedures.
Object Number: 898507
Click here for detailed picture of above image.
Please follow this diagnostic or repair process thoroughly and complete each step. If the condition exhibited is resolved without completing every step, the remaining steps do not need to be performed.
Diagnostic Aids
Important: Scan tool control of the CMP actuator solenoid is inhibited when DTC P1345 sets.
The following conditions may cause this DTC to set:
• An improperly torqued harmonic balancer
• A misbuilt or mis-timed engine
• A loose or missing crank damper bolt
• The camphaser solenoid stuck open
• The camphaser stuck in a position other than 0 degrees
• The camphaser does not return to 0 degrees within 16 seconds
#PI00156C: SES Light with a P1345 or P0016 and a Possible Rough Idle - kw 4.2 camshaft condition control DTC idle intermittent light LL* MIL performance poor repair rough solenoid - (Jan 26, 2005)
Subject: SES Light with a P1345 or P0016 and a Possible Rough Idle
Models: .
The following diagnosis might be helpful if the vehicle exhibits the symptom(s) described in the PI.
Condition/Concern:
Some 2002 - 2004 models that are equipped with the 4.2L (VIN S - RPO LL8) engine may experience a SES Light due to a P0016 or P1345 DTC and a possible rough idle.
Recommendation/Instructions:
If the SI diagnostics do not isolate a cause, the following information may help:
- Control of the Cam Phaser Actuator solenoid is inhibited when a P0016 (04 Model Year) or P1345 (02 - 03 Model Year) DTC is stored.
- If this DTC started after recent internal engine repairs, inspect for proper engine mechanical timing. With the camshaft cover removed and the #1 cylinder at top dead center, make sure that the darkened chain links are lined up with the alignment marks on the exhaust and intake cam sprockets. At this point, J44221 should fit over the rear cam flats and the word Delphi (on the front of the Cam Phaser Actuator sprocket) should be parallel with the front edge of the cylinder head. Note: It may take up to 14 crankshaft revolutions before all timing alignment marks line up with each other.
- Engines built after 2/5/01 include a thin friction washer (P/N 12573950) between the dampener and the crank gear and the torque specification was increased to 110 ft-lbs plus 180 degrees to prevent crankshaft gear and alignment pin damage. If there is any history of the crank dampener bolt ever being loose, the crankshaft gear and alignment pin may be damaged, which can cause these DTCs.
- If a P0016 or P1345 is resetting without any engine performance concerns but the SI diagnostics and the above information did not isolate a cause for the DTC, replace the Cam Phaser Actuator sprocket.
#PIP3659A: SES Light After Internal Engine Repairs Due to DTC P0016 or P1345 - keywords after cam correlation crank DTC induced previous replacement seal since spring timing valve - (Jan 4, 2006)
Subject: SES Light After Internal Engine Repairs Due DTC P0016 or P1345
Models: 2004 Buick Rainier
2002-2004 Chevrolet TrailBlazer
2002-2004 GMC Envoy
2002-2004 Oldsmobile Bravada
with 4.2L Engine (VIN S - RPO LL8)
The following diagnosis might be helpful if the vehicle exhibits the symptom(s) described in this PI.
Condition/Concern:
Depending on the model year, a P0016 or P1345 may be encountered after internal engine repairs that required resetting of the timing chain tensioner or removal and installation of the exhaust camshaft actuator sprocket. This may be the result of a mistimed engine or damaged exhaust camshaft actuator.
Recommendation/Instructions:
If this concern is encountered and the SI diagnostics do not isolate the cause, review the following information and inspect for a damaged exhaust camshaft actuator or mistimed engine as necessary:
- The spline style exhaust camshaft actuator used on 2004 model year and earlier 4.2L engines is designed to operate between 25 degrees of retard and 0 degrees (full advance/rest/clockwise position). There is a stop tab inside of the camshaft actuator that prevents the exhaust cam from advancing beyond the rest position under normal operating conditions. This tab can bend if the exhaust cam/actuator is forced to rotate beyond the rest position (full advance/full clockwise) during internal engine repairs. If this occurs, it may be noted that the reluctor portion of the actuator is a few degrees more advanced (clockwise) than a known good one. With the actuator sprocket in place and the #1 piston at top dead center, it may be noted that the rear cam flat of the exhaust cam is not flat when compared with the rear cam flat of the intake cam. Upon further inspection, it may also be noted that the word Delphi that is on the cam reluctor portion of the actuator is slightly rotated toward the driver side even though the intake cam flat is flat. If this is suspected to be the cause of this concern, it will be necessary to replace the exhaust camshaft actuator again, taking care not to damage it upon reassembly. As mentioned in SI, do not force the camshaft actuator to rotate clockwise upon assembly. If it does not move easily, it is already fully advanced. New camshaft actuators are already packaged in the fully advanced (clockwise) position. This type of damage should not occur on 2005 model year and newer 4.2L engines because they are equipped with a vane style exhaust camshaft actuator, which is designed differently than the spline style actuator.
- If the timing chain tensioner had to be reset, this concern could be the result of incorrect cam to crank timing. As the timing chain tensioner is released, chain slack between the crankshaft and tensioner is eliminated. As the slack is eliminated, it is very easy for the timing chain to shift one tooth at the crankshaft sprocket without being noticed by the technician. If this occurs, it is unlikely to isolate the incorrect cam to crank timing without removing the front cover. When properly timed, the timing marks should line up as shown below once every 14 crankshaft revolutions with the #1 piston at top dead center. If all 3 of these timing marks never line up at the same time, re-time the engine by following SI procedures.
Object Number: 898507
Click here for detailed picture of above image.
Please follow this diagnostic or repair process thoroughly and complete each step. If the condition exhibited is resolved without completing every step, the remaining steps do not need to be performed.
Diagnostic Aids
Important: Scan tool control of the CMP actuator solenoid is inhibited when DTC P1345 sets.
The following conditions may cause this DTC to set:
• An improperly torqued harmonic balancer
• A misbuilt or mis-timed engine
• A loose or missing crank damper bolt
• The camphaser solenoid stuck open
• The camphaser stuck in a position other than 0 degrees
• The camphaser does not return to 0 degrees within 16 seconds
Last edited:
That actually gives me a few more ideas. I'm going to retorque the main pulley/balancer bolt to eliminate that. And if that and the case relearn doesn't solve the issue, its back to square 1 again. I know for a fact its timed properly. I triple checked it after spinning it over by hand many times till the black links lined up every 14 revolutions like stated. New phaser (for the 06 head) and new solenoid.
But there is another caution that is directly related to the problem of doing that. I'll break it down:
(1) The Crankshaft Bolt is of a TTY Design that MUST first be tightened to 110 Ft Lbs and then ...after painting a white Permanent Oil Paint Ink line vertically down from the Front Timing Cover...across the Bolt Face and then on down to the other side of the cover as a point of reference... an additional Torque Angle of 180 Degrees must be applied. The Line makes achieving this action very simple and direct... without having to apply a Torque Angle Meter to do the final tightening.
(2) I realize that once the TTY Crank Bolt was removed...it might have appeared to be re-usable... but after being Stretched and Necked Down... The Bolt may no longer have possession of that "inner rubber-band" action needed to freeze the Crankshaft and Timing Chain Cog 'Exactly' in the proper place.
(3) If the Original TTY Crank Bolt was Re-Used and that Bullsh*t Pin in the nose of the Crank used as an excuse for a proper Hardened Steel "Woodruff Key in Slot" design failed to handle the shearing forces from the Loose Harmonic Balancer tugging on it... then it is very possible that the Harmonic Balancer may have slipped enough to damage the Pin in the position where the Pin rests inside of the Rectangular Slot of the Crankshaft Timing Chain Cog. And if that happened even slightly and the Cog was also damaged inside and then migrated out of position.... then the Timing Chain and Black Links would no longer be properly referenced to the Hall Effect Notches in the Reluctor located further back inside of the Crankshaft at the 5th Main Journal.
(4) So from that point on... there would be no way to correct the problem of the CKP Sensor sending signals to the PCM and having the Timing Chain to Cam Phaser ever being in the correct position to reconcile the Timing Advance in correct accordance with the actual position of the Reluctor. It could then misbehave as though it were One Tooth Off... even though for all intents and purposes... it would appear that the Black links all line up... the Cam Flats "almost line up" ... and the Cam Phaser and Exhaust Camshaft Flat would wind up canting slightly towards the Driver's Side of the Engine Block.
(5) If this damage occurred... then Repairing the Crankshaft Hardened Pin and Replacing the Crankshaft Timing Cog would be the only way to effectively make this problem go away. However... If a man was determined enough to tolerate the unpredictable stalls and keep the Battery and Charging system up to snuff to deal with the constant draw down of power during so many required re-starts... it might be something you could live with. But... should the loosened Harmonic Balancer constantly play a 'slip and catch game' against the face of the Crankshaft Timing Cog ...it could move the timing off just enough to cause sufficient 'interference" in the Valve Train that the Valves might strike the Pistons and make matters much worse.
(6) If God Forbid you have to delve into this Engine a Third Time... it would be imperative to replace that lower Crankshaft Cog and eyeball that Damned Pin for ANY indications of being bent or damaged and try to replace the pin. Short of doing this to overcome the damages to these two components... Replacing the Crankshaft and the Cog would be your last resort.
(1) The Crankshaft Bolt is of a TTY Design that MUST first be tightened to 110 Ft Lbs and then ...after painting a white Permanent Oil Paint Ink line vertically down from the Front Timing Cover...across the Bolt Face and then on down to the other side of the cover as a point of reference... an additional Torque Angle of 180 Degrees must be applied. The Line makes achieving this action very simple and direct... without having to apply a Torque Angle Meter to do the final tightening.
(2) I realize that once the TTY Crank Bolt was removed...it might have appeared to be re-usable... but after being Stretched and Necked Down... The Bolt may no longer have possession of that "inner rubber-band" action needed to freeze the Crankshaft and Timing Chain Cog 'Exactly' in the proper place.
(3) If the Original TTY Crank Bolt was Re-Used and that Bullsh*t Pin in the nose of the Crank used as an excuse for a proper Hardened Steel "Woodruff Key in Slot" design failed to handle the shearing forces from the Loose Harmonic Balancer tugging on it... then it is very possible that the Harmonic Balancer may have slipped enough to damage the Pin in the position where the Pin rests inside of the Rectangular Slot of the Crankshaft Timing Chain Cog. And if that happened even slightly and the Cog was also damaged inside and then migrated out of position.... then the Timing Chain and Black Links would no longer be properly referenced to the Hall Effect Notches in the Reluctor located further back inside of the Crankshaft at the 5th Main Journal.
(4) So from that point on... there would be no way to correct the problem of the CKP Sensor sending signals to the PCM and having the Timing Chain to Cam Phaser ever being in the correct position to reconcile the Timing Advance in correct accordance with the actual position of the Reluctor. It could then misbehave as though it were One Tooth Off... even though for all intents and purposes... it would appear that the Black links all line up... the Cam Flats "almost line up" ... and the Cam Phaser and Exhaust Camshaft Flat would wind up canting slightly towards the Driver's Side of the Engine Block.
(5) If this damage occurred... then Repairing the Crankshaft Hardened Pin and Replacing the Crankshaft Timing Cog would be the only way to effectively make this problem go away. However... If a man was determined enough to tolerate the unpredictable stalls and keep the Battery and Charging system up to snuff to deal with the constant draw down of power during so many required re-starts... it might be something you could live with. But... should the loosened Harmonic Balancer constantly play a 'slip and catch game' against the face of the Crankshaft Timing Cog ...it could move the timing off just enough to cause sufficient 'interference" in the Valve Train that the Valves might strike the Pistons and make matters much worse.
(6) If God Forbid you have to delve into this Engine a Third Time... it would be imperative to replace that lower Crankshaft Cog and eyeball that Damned Pin for ANY indications of being bent or damaged and try to replace the pin. Short of doing this to overcome the damages to these two components... Replacing the Crankshaft and the Cog would be your last resort.
Last edited:
Here is more Information and Diagnostics on the issues previously mentioned... Please pay particular attention to the idea that with these Odd Internal Mis-Alignments... it would be easy to blame a faulty CKP Sensor without knowing how badly these parts have become disoriented inside of the Engine:
#PIP3694E: Belt Noise Rough Idle And/Or SES Light With DTC P0014 And/Or P0017 - Inspect CMP Actuator Solenoid And Crankshaft End Play - (Jul 21, 2011)
Subject: Belt Noise Rough Idle and/or SES Light with DTC P0014 and/or P0017 - Inspect CMP Actuator Solenoid and Crankshaft End Play
Models: 2004-2009 Chevrolet TrailBlazer
2004-2011 Chevrolet Colorado
2004-2011 GMC Envoy
2004-2011 GMC Canyon
2004-2009 Hummer H3
With an Inline 4, 5, or 6 Cylinder Engine (RPO Codes L52, LK5 LL8 LLR LLV)
This PI was superseded to correct the specifications in the Recommendations and instructions. Please discard PIP3694E.
The following diagnosis might be helpful if the vehicle exhibits the symptom(s) described in this PI.
Condition/Concern:
Some customers may complain of an engine belt noise, rough idle, and/or SES light with DTC P0014 and/or P0017. If a rough idle is experienced, a P0106 may also be stored.
Recommendation/Instructions:
If the SI diagnosis does not isolate the cause of this concern, perform the steps below:
Object Number: 1752543
Click here for detailed picture of above image.
1. Inspect the camshaft actuator solenoid screens below:
(1) Screen for Advance Pressure to Camshaft Actuator
(2) Screen for Pressurized Oil from Oil Pump
(3) Screen for Retard Pressure to Camshaft Actuator
If any of these screens are missing, replace the camshaft actuator solenoid, change the engine oil and filter, and re-evaluate the concern. If none of the screens are missing, proceed to step 2 below.
2. Measure the crankshaft end play to determine if it is within the specification of 0.0044in - 0.0153in (0.112 - 0.388 mm). If the crankshaft end play is only .001in or so above specification, it is probably not causing this concern. Typically, if excessive crankshaft end play is causing this concern, it will be obviously out of specification by as much as .050in or more when a pry bar is used to move the crankshaft back and forth. Normally it is so obvious that you can see the excessive movement without using a dial indicator.
2.1 If crankshaft end play is acceptable, replace the camshaft actuator solenoid and re-evaluate the concern.
2.2 If the crankshaft end play is obviously out of specification, engine replacement is suggested to prevent DTCs P0014 and/or P0017 from returning again due to trace amounts of thrust bearing debris that may remain inside of the engine during alternate repairs, such as crankshaft and bearing replacement. If the vehicle is under warranty contact the PQC (Product Quality Center) with the engine unit numbers and an engine replacement estimate at 1-866-654-7654 before replacing the engine.
2.3 If you prefer to repair the engine instead of replace it due to special circumstances, such as an engine backorder situation, no warranty coverage left, or the customer would prefer to have their original engine repaired, you may replace the crankshaft and bearings if the engine block is repairable and it is more cost-effective to repair the engine.
Note: Due to the sensitivity of the CMP actuator system and the tight clearances in the Cam Actuator, the vehicle may return with DTCs P0014 and/or P0017 if you do not get 100% of the old thrust bearing debris out of the engine when the repairs are made.
If you decide to replace the crankshaft and bearings for this concern, first remove the oil pan to inspect the engine block and determine if it has been damaged by the crankshaft. If engine block damage is present, replace the engine. If no engine block damage is present, completely is assemble the engine and inspect everything that could have been damaged by the thrust bearing debris, such as the cam bearing journals, cam lobes, cam followers, lash adjusters, timing chain and guides, oil pump, etc... The CMP actuator solenoid and sprocket assembly should be replaced due to thrust bearing material that may be trapped inside of either component. Before replacing the damaged/contaminated components and reassembling the engine, thoroughly clean all of the cylinder head and engine block oil galleys with oil galley brushes and soapy water. Also, thoroughly clean all other areas of the engine that would have contacted the old oil and thrust bearing debris, such as the inside of the cam cover, front cover, rear cover, timing chain guides, oil pan, oil galleys in the nose of the exhaust camshaft, etc..
#PIP3694E: Belt Noise Rough Idle And/Or SES Light With DTC P0014 And/Or P0017 - Inspect CMP Actuator Solenoid And Crankshaft End Play - (Jul 21, 2011)
Subject: Belt Noise Rough Idle and/or SES Light with DTC P0014 and/or P0017 - Inspect CMP Actuator Solenoid and Crankshaft End Play
Models: 2004-2009 Chevrolet TrailBlazer
2004-2011 Chevrolet Colorado
2004-2011 GMC Envoy
2004-2011 GMC Canyon
2004-2009 Hummer H3
With an Inline 4, 5, or 6 Cylinder Engine (RPO Codes L52, LK5 LL8 LLR LLV)
This PI was superseded to correct the specifications in the Recommendations and instructions. Please discard PIP3694E.
The following diagnosis might be helpful if the vehicle exhibits the symptom(s) described in this PI.
Condition/Concern:
Some customers may complain of an engine belt noise, rough idle, and/or SES light with DTC P0014 and/or P0017. If a rough idle is experienced, a P0106 may also be stored.
Recommendation/Instructions:
If the SI diagnosis does not isolate the cause of this concern, perform the steps below:
Object Number: 1752543
Click here for detailed picture of above image.
1. Inspect the camshaft actuator solenoid screens below:
(1) Screen for Advance Pressure to Camshaft Actuator
(2) Screen for Pressurized Oil from Oil Pump
(3) Screen for Retard Pressure to Camshaft Actuator
If any of these screens are missing, replace the camshaft actuator solenoid, change the engine oil and filter, and re-evaluate the concern. If none of the screens are missing, proceed to step 2 below.
2. Measure the crankshaft end play to determine if it is within the specification of 0.0044in - 0.0153in (0.112 - 0.388 mm). If the crankshaft end play is only .001in or so above specification, it is probably not causing this concern. Typically, if excessive crankshaft end play is causing this concern, it will be obviously out of specification by as much as .050in or more when a pry bar is used to move the crankshaft back and forth. Normally it is so obvious that you can see the excessive movement without using a dial indicator.
2.1 If crankshaft end play is acceptable, replace the camshaft actuator solenoid and re-evaluate the concern.
2.2 If the crankshaft end play is obviously out of specification, engine replacement is suggested to prevent DTCs P0014 and/or P0017 from returning again due to trace amounts of thrust bearing debris that may remain inside of the engine during alternate repairs, such as crankshaft and bearing replacement. If the vehicle is under warranty contact the PQC (Product Quality Center) with the engine unit numbers and an engine replacement estimate at 1-866-654-7654 before replacing the engine.
2.3 If you prefer to repair the engine instead of replace it due to special circumstances, such as an engine backorder situation, no warranty coverage left, or the customer would prefer to have their original engine repaired, you may replace the crankshaft and bearings if the engine block is repairable and it is more cost-effective to repair the engine.
Note: Due to the sensitivity of the CMP actuator system and the tight clearances in the Cam Actuator, the vehicle may return with DTCs P0014 and/or P0017 if you do not get 100% of the old thrust bearing debris out of the engine when the repairs are made.
If you decide to replace the crankshaft and bearings for this concern, first remove the oil pan to inspect the engine block and determine if it has been damaged by the crankshaft. If engine block damage is present, replace the engine. If no engine block damage is present, completely is assemble the engine and inspect everything that could have been damaged by the thrust bearing debris, such as the cam bearing journals, cam lobes, cam followers, lash adjusters, timing chain and guides, oil pump, etc... The CMP actuator solenoid and sprocket assembly should be replaced due to thrust bearing material that may be trapped inside of either component. Before replacing the damaged/contaminated components and reassembling the engine, thoroughly clean all of the cylinder head and engine block oil galleys with oil galley brushes and soapy water. Also, thoroughly clean all other areas of the engine that would have contacted the old oil and thrust bearing debris, such as the inside of the cam cover, front cover, rear cover, timing chain guides, oil pan, oil galleys in the nose of the exhaust camshaft, etc..
What a read.... Thank you though. I'm hoping for the best. I really can't tear into this again till I get my cavalier fixed. So quick troubleshooting is hopefully the trick. And remember how I said my backup was on its last legs? Yea the transmission is completely locked up. I had to use 4lo to shove it in the garage, and well here are the results...
It is a Real Shame that you have to deal with such difficulties... all at once. Shakespeare ruminated in the play "Hamlet" about how such problems can pile up; one upon another when he wrote: 'Troubles Come ...Not as Single Spies... But in Battalions...'
This will be the last Technical Reference Material I'll mention on this subject until you know definitively whether the issues are Mechanical ...or Sensor Based. This PDF explains the Principles of VVT for the GM Ecotec Engines... but the Good Ol' GM 4.2L gets an Honorable Mention as well...and more than that... it delves into and Charts what all these Sensors are supposed to be showing the PCM as they busy themselves about the jobs of keeping the Motors running... and what the PXXX Codes really involve when they fail:
http://www.autonerdz.com/yabbfiles/Attachments/GM_CAS.pdf
This will be the last Technical Reference Material I'll mention on this subject until you know definitively whether the issues are Mechanical ...or Sensor Based. This PDF explains the Principles of VVT for the GM Ecotec Engines... but the Good Ol' GM 4.2L gets an Honorable Mention as well...and more than that... it delves into and Charts what all these Sensors are supposed to be showing the PCM as they busy themselves about the jobs of keeping the Motors running... and what the PXXX Codes really involve when they fail:
http://www.autonerdz.com/yabbfiles/Attachments/GM_CAS.pdf
Ok so update. Took the fan and shroud off and fabricated a crank pulley holding tool out of some heavy angle iron I had laying around. Retorqued the crank pulley bolt, trimmed and adjusted the fan shroud that was rubbing (one of the codes that popped up was fan speed sensor) and had a case relearn done. Check engine light is off! For how long, I don't know... But lets pray it stays off. Idles fine, hasn't died in a few days. But I learned that I need a new belt tensioner soon. Looks like I'm gonna check out the parts truck tensioner see if that's good. Or just buy a new one... Idk yet. Money is super tight. Sitting here idle right now to see if the fan kicks in and the check engine light stays off...... Yup kicked in and sounds like its moving some air. Thanks guys for all the help and ill post again if I run into more issues.
Well back to square one again. I got 3k miles on the rebuild before it started knocking. Apparently what happened is I didn't wash the reground crank good enough when I put it in. I don't know for certain but that's the most likely scenario. Be ready for some more teardown pics coming soon.
Yea... Fml...
Yea... Fml...
Mooseman
Moderator
Mooseman
Moderator
Crank kit (remanned crank and new bearings) is like 175 with the returned crank as a core, and ill have to re round the rods. Worst case scenario I got a parts motor I can steal the rods out of. So hopefully I can get away with a ~$300 fix.
ttcfan4476
Member
Mooseman
Moderator
Very easy to find out if you check his info. He's in Silver Lake, MN
Have? As in free? I might meet somewhere if possible. How far are you from Minneapolis area?
ttcfan4476
Member
ttcfan4476
Member
Mooseman
Moderator
You know I think ill take you up on that offer. If you still have it. Gas to get there and back is cheaper than an unknown condition core. I need 6 good rods now.
ttcfan4476
Member
No problem ill throw in some other stuff with it I'm tired of tripping over.
You sure you don't want anything for it? I have a 06 parts trailblazer if you need something. Anyways message me your phone number so we can plan
Mooseman
Moderator
ttcfan4476
Member
I know this is a year and 1/2 old post but Ill try anyways. Bondo07, where did you get the crank and bearings for $175.00 if I can ask? I had #6 rod take out my crank, need a good used crank, thanks.
m.mcmillen
Member
Thanks for the reply. Unfortunately the damage took the crank rod journal over 0.050 under, so there is not much left to grind and polish. Its going to be 1) find a used bad engine with a good crank or 2)re manufactured. A re manufactured crank is too expensive at this time. I can probably get a whole used engine for what I see reman crank going for.
If you have not as yet made plans and found the necessary funds to pay for ALL of the required TTY fasteners that will be unavoidably necessary when you begin re-assembling this engine...you will find that the cost of these items will become prohibitively ...Sky High. Take those Crankshaft Mains Cap Screws (Only NEW, Un-Used 14 TTY OEM Factory GM Bolts are Required) for example. Well... these alone can vary in price from as much as $60.00 a Piece on eBay down to around $34.00 a Piece at RockAuto. That's an awful lot of Jingle for just a handful of TTY Bolts!
Alternatively... you could try checking out the GM Parts Direct On Line Outlets and see if you can find them still in stock. And with that in mind... May I suggest that you Try HERE First...(See the attached Screen Print Receipt) ...because if they still have these In Stock...Paying Under $5.00 a Piece... Plus S&H makes a Helluva Lot More Sense than having your Wallet contents removed from you like an Emergency Appendectomy!
If they are out of these... Keep Googling every single GM Dealership you can find that sells Factory OEM GM Parts On Line...and try to pick them up...a few here.... a few there until you have managed to Accrue The Entire Lot of these Absurdly Supernumerary and Precious Fasteners needed for the Crankshaft Mains (14) , The Connecting Rods (12), and the Engine Head (17 [14 + 3 Unique, Small TTY Bolts):
Alternatively... you could try checking out the GM Parts Direct On Line Outlets and see if you can find them still in stock. And with that in mind... May I suggest that you Try HERE First...(See the attached Screen Print Receipt) ...because if they still have these In Stock...Paying Under $5.00 a Piece... Plus S&H makes a Helluva Lot More Sense than having your Wallet contents removed from you like an Emergency Appendectomy!
If they are out of these... Keep Googling every single GM Dealership you can find that sells Factory OEM GM Parts On Line...and try to pick them up...a few here.... a few there until you have managed to Accrue The Entire Lot of these Absurdly Supernumerary and Precious Fasteners needed for the Crankshaft Mains (14) , The Connecting Rods (12), and the Engine Head (17 [14 + 3 Unique, Small TTY Bolts):
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m.mcmillen
Member
The ones on Rock Auto are priced as a set of 10. Also check with your GM dealer, I bought all of my TTY bolts from them except for the head bolts when I did my rebuild. I paid $4.60 each for the main bearing bolts with no shipping.
Thank you MRRSM, for the info, also thank you for all the contribution you have made to this site. I have read most of your posts and enjoyed the pictures, again thank you. My main hold up right now is the crank, or lack of good crank. The head bolts I can find for about 50-for a set. I have not priced out the main or rod bolts yet. By the way just broke one rod bolt and one exhaust manifold shield screw while disassembling engine. Thanks to all you guys for all the tricks and hints on how to do it.
I very much like your idea about locating a Pulled-Used Engine out of a Running Vehicle that suffered NO FRONT END DAMAGE as a "Grub-Stake" Engine to either Freshen Up as per @Mooseman's advice and considerable experience... or to use for a Decent Re-Build Platform. Please Remember that if you intend upon re-using that Con-Rod with the In-Dwelling Broken Off TTY Bolt Shank... to TRIPLE COVER THE "Cracked Rod" Surface Area before carefully mounting it in a Steel Vise and Drilling Out the Dead Center for the use of an EZ Out to remove the Broken Off Bolt Piece.
I mention this to alert you that if you get too aggressive with whatever Tools you intend using...and they "Slip & Gouge" those mate-up areas... Then the "Cracked Rod" Caps will NOT Properly Re-Align. Take your time and Tape off those areas completely with some Gorilla Duct Tape... Just to be safe.I'm very glad to see how much research you have been doing... and I would urge you to listen to @m.mcmillen as The Man with The Most Experience and in possession of THE BEST Instructional advice you will ever read on what to do...and how to do it where it concerns the Complete Rebuild of The GM Atlas LL8 4.2L Engine.
One last thought... The GM OEM (14) Mains Cap Screws (Bolts) are listed as being "Not In Stock" at RockAuto right now ... and the alternative and less expensive Dorman version is peculiar in that they Do NOT behave in the exact same way during the Tightening, Torquing and Final TTY procedures. So finding them (GM OEM flavor) elsewhere at other Dealership locations including your own will prove to be the best way to proceed.
I mention this to alert you that if you get too aggressive with whatever Tools you intend using...and they "Slip & Gouge" those mate-up areas... Then the "Cracked Rod" Caps will NOT Properly Re-Align. Take your time and Tape off those areas completely with some Gorilla Duct Tape... Just to be safe.I'm very glad to see how much research you have been doing... and I would urge you to listen to @m.mcmillen as The Man with The Most Experience and in possession of THE BEST Instructional advice you will ever read on what to do...and how to do it where it concerns the Complete Rebuild of The GM Atlas LL8 4.2L Engine.
One last thought... The GM OEM (14) Mains Cap Screws (Bolts) are listed as being "Not In Stock" at RockAuto right now ... and the alternative and less expensive Dorman version is peculiar in that they Do NOT behave in the exact same way during the Tightening, Torquing and Final TTY procedures. So finding them (GM OEM flavor) elsewhere at other Dealership locations including your own will prove to be the best way to proceed.
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The price I am finding for a decent used crank is still into the 300. I think you will be much better off to contact the yard in the below Craigslist post. He has the early and later 4.2 available. He's in Nashville. I don't endorse him, he's just a yard that I was quickly able to find with both versions of the I6 engineers in stock. He had an 03 engine with 140k, which if I am remembering correctly, is a direct swap for your 02.
Craigslist
Craigslist 2
Craigslist
Craigslist 2
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m.mcmillen
Member
That reminds me that I did buy the Dorman ones and didn't realize that it was short 4 bolts. I used the 10 and bought 4 more from the dealer. I have a digital torque wrench that measures angle and also shows what the final torque was after doing the angle. The Dorman bolts were noticeably harder to turn than the OEM bolts. I don't remember the exact number but I think the final torque on the OEM bolts was around 30 foot pounds higher than the OEM bolts. I ended up tossing all of the bolts and buying 14 more from the dealership.