My "cursed" engine rebuild

[Mooseman]

Hmmm. I dunno if such a thing would be able to pump a thick liquid like oil that was designed for a watery liquid like insecticide. I'd try a drill pump instead but you'd need a helper to hold the hose in the hole. Might also leak out too while doing this.

I say as long as the oil pump is full of oil, it will supply oil pressure fairly quickly at start up.

 

[mrrsm]

I was thinking that without the narrow spray head in the way... and with the larger ID of the 3/8" hose pumped up to say 10-15 PSI... it might work as a simple, practical approach... with nothing really inside the Oil Galleries to get in the way.

 

[Bondo07]

Ok so I talked to my trusted machinist that did all the machine work on this, and he said as l9ng as I filled the filter and pump, and used assembly lube. It should be fine. Just as long as when I start it I jump up the rpms to get the oil pressure up there right away. Gonna try it now. Cross your fingers

 

[Bondo07]

She lives! I'm gonna find a way to link the video so you can enjoy it almost as much as I did. It stumbled to start for a nerveracking minute or 2 but it started, ran rough like a coil was dead, but cleared up and runs smooth now.

 

[mrrsm]

"Thank The Maker... The Curse ... has been lifted!"

 

[Bondo07]

Ok so it purrs. But would intermittently kill itself. Here are the codes.





Any ideas? I used the cam phaser solenoid from the 06, and the crank sensor should still be good.

 

[mrrsm]

The system is a Five Part Story when it works right...and PITA when they don't play well together. The components are as follows:

(1) The PCM
(2) The CPAS (source of the P0014 Code)
(3) The CPS
(4) The MAF Sensor (for later models)
(5) The CKP (source of the P1345 Code)

The CKP can be taken care of when you have the time and the bread for a Dealeship CASE relearn. The P0014 is bit of a puzzle ...but it all depends on whether the Cam Phaser was in good working order and ...hopefully pre-loaded correctly before the Timing Chain was installed and that no excessive force was used to set it up as the internal stop mechanism inside the Phaser can easily get snapped off. If that happens... the Engine won't behave itself properly when close to idling and the Timing Chain can get a bit noisy... not so much when all the components are new... but worse when they are worn.

 

[Mooseman]

P1345 is definitely the need for a CASE relearn. P0014 is something going on with something in that system. Start with the cam sensor. Easiest and cheapest to check. Then the CPAS. All that's left after that is the cam phaser.

 

[Bondo07]

So I'm confused about the whole "preload" with the cam phaser. Haynes manual said nothing about it. Just the torque specs. Is the relearn something I can do without going to a dealership? And what's the possibility of the crank sensor being bad? I always thought they either work or they don't. The noticeable issue is a stumble at idle and will usually die at stop lights.

 

[mrrsm]

The Cam Phaser has a "Return Spring" that needs to be preloaded and locks against a stop chunk of metal inside the Phaser that is delicate. Please don't be angry...but your images show repeated circumstances of using sufficient force to break fasteners.... the Head Bolts ... which cannot be helped...one of the Exhaust Manifold to CAT Manifold ...and the ear of the Axle Unit... so this might indicate the use of force that may have been a bit too...strong... with the unwinding of these things. Ergo... it seems possible that by twisting the Cam Phaser too hard... it may have been broken as a result.

The flip side of this idea is that if the Pre-Load was never induced in the first place... the Cam Phaser could have been installed without it...and while not being broken...would still present the PCM with confusing results because the CPS would not be reporting its correct retarding position within its movement arc of only 25 Degrees. But let's not get too excited just yet... I much prefer to be as optimistic as @Mooseman ...and imagine that the CPAS is a bit sketchy and once replaced with a New AC Delco unit... all will be well.

The Crank Sensor is not necessarily Broken... but whenever you rebuild an Engine... the Old Data stored in the PCM about the vagaries of wear and tear on the original Crankshaft and its relationships with worn in shift points for the 4L60E ...these issues confuse the PCM and hence the CASE Re-Learn makes those problems go away... not to mention updating your PCM System Software Updates getting done at the same time. It seems like nothing is ever easy about working on the GM Atlas 4.2L Engines ...I'm very sorry... I wish it were otherwise.

 

[Mooseman]

What he said

The CASE relearn can only be done by a dealer or a shop with a high-end scanner that can initiate such. It is necessary whenever the crank sensor or timing components are disturbed. This just learns to the PCM the angle of the crank in correlation to the cam. Hope that your phaser is fine. If the CASE relearn doesn't fix the P1345, the phaser is borked. Dorman has new ones that are cheaper than the Delphi rebuilt from the dealer. I have one and it has worked well.

 

[mrrsm]

This first video comes from @MAY03LT... A Man who never needs an introduction here at GMT Nation speaking on the topic of: The CASE Re-Learn (if the video does not play right away...just click on the Youtube Icon on the lower right of the screen):

The small Blue Animation shown during this excellent video shows how all of the components are intimately involved in controlling the Exhaust Camshaft worth freeze-framing. Since this was made in the early period of the engine development… The MAP Sensor is shown in the circuit… The MAF Sensor would arrive for use in the Atlas Engine a few years later:

I was thinking about the internal appearance of the engine prior to re-assembly...and it seems quite possible that even though you probably cleaned the CPAS before re-installing it back in the block… its is entirely possible that in very short order … it may have clogged up again without having De-gunked and washed down the engine interior and/or flushed out the Engine Oil Galleries and passages.

If you pull the three bolts holding the Power Steering Pump and remove the CPAS once again... and you find the screens loaded with junk again… THIS will be the best possible thing to happen because you'll know it was indeed the CPAS and the odd problem with the CASE Relearn issues. Here is a video that gives a better explanation of the problems and it has a more sophisticated diagnostic scanner being used to sort out the correlation issues between all of the sensors in the loop:

 

[Bondo07]

So after talking to the local shop, it seems I'm going to be removing the valve cover and preloading the cam phaser. Hopefully I can do so without disturbing the timing chain tensioner. Wish me luck

 

[Bondo07]

Ok so I pulled the valve cover, loosened the cam phaser bolt and advanced the cam as far as possible and torqued the bolt back down. Put everything back together and the check engine light still came up. Been looking online for case relearn without a scan tool and ran across a couple sites that say something about accelerate to 55mph for 10 minutes, decelerate to 45 without brakes, and something about multiple deceleration sequences. Now that doesn't make sense to me at all so I'm gonna call Bullshit on that one. Still stuck on this as to whether I should replace the cpas or not.

 

[Bondo07]

Ok so I got my appointment scheduled at the stealership for wed morning.

 

[mrrsm]

The CPAS would have been the best place to start... The problem with loosening the TTY Cam Phaser Bolt to make the pre-load adjustment is the risk that the bolt might fail under the stress of operation unexpectedly in the future. Think of what happened to many or most of the Head Bolts when they were being removed... same problem here. However...if you are lucky... the bolt may not have been weakened too much. I only mention this unfortunate possibility because if the bolt does giving way at say 1,800 RPM... you'll have to kiss that engine Good Bye. If you can get another replacement TTY Bolt and swap it out...you will sleep better at night after doing so.

You are correct about the CASE Relearn Wives Tales as being nothing more than Big Piles of Steaming Hot "Bravo Sierra". A better bet would be to call around to some Non-Stealership Shops that have the equipment and the know-how that @MAY03LT stressed in his video. They might be willing to do just that one thing if you do not also request a full SW to FW update of the PCM. $99.00 seems a ridiculous amount to charge for this Tiny Fix... but what can you do? You need a definitive answer...and the CASE Re-Learn is the only way to find out whether or not the update will reconcile the Sensors to one another and resolve the P0014 and P1345 Codes... Or not ... and being faced with having to go back in there to replace the Cam Phaser with a Brand New (1). There is also a very slight possibility that the Timing Chain is off One Tooth...but that can be resolved by rotating the engine until the two camshaft flats or facing up, flat and horizontal and if you can see the Black Links lining up with the two camshaft sprockets... and the #1 Cylinder of course located at Top Dead Center.

There is also one more possibility going on here...

If your Replacement Engine Head is a later model one... beyond the 2002-2005 series...you might be suffering a situation where your PCM has one idea of the Camshaft Performance Profile for the EARLY Model Head... and simply cannot make Ass, Head or Tail out of the Camshafts' Lift and Duration profiles that you have on the New Head. If you get to the Dealership... they may say that the only way you can make them work is to replace the PCM with one from the Later Model Vehicle... I'm not entirely certain if this is what you are dealing with ...but perhaps @Mooseman can advise you on the possibilities of this being the problem.

 

[Bondo07]

You are right I should replace the bolt. At bare minimum replace the cpas too. I guess it really only took me 2 hours max to do that, so wouldn't hurt to do it again with a replacement bolt. And about the 06 head, I've read of a few different people swapping to the 06+ head and not having to swap pcm. Not saying that they didn't and neglected to say something about it, but I'm leaning towards not necessary. If it is, I got the 06 pcm yet.

 

[Bondo07]

Well im playing it safe on this one and ordered a new phaser and cpas for the 06 from rockauto. Parked it in the garage for now.

 

[Tiggerr]

Well im playing it safe on this one and ordered a new phaser and cpas for the 06 from rockauto. Parked it in the garage for now.

Could the '06 CPAS or phaser not be playing nice with the older PCM??

 

[Bondo07]

No, the part numbers are the same between the 06 and 02 cpas. The cam phaser is different only in physical size, the 06 is shorter but the same diameter. So I highly doubt its a confusion with the newer components.

 

[mrrsm]

There may be some other subtle differences between the year-change Cam Phasers; other than their adjustments in mass and their outer diameters. These would have to do with the location and separation periods of the Hall Effect Notches set into each unique device to induce the collapsing field effects necessary to signal the PCM of the slight differences in the positions of the Exhaust Camshaft correlated signals the PCM to either move Oil pressure into... or out of the Cam Phaser internal mechanism.

Any real confusion between the actual position of the Crankshaft... via the CKP Sensor ...the Actual position of the Timing Gear Set...via the CPS Sensor ...and the wide ranging differences happening throughout the scale of RPM of the actual position of the Exhaust Camshaft can achieve courtesy the directions sent to the CPAS by the PCM... could be profoundly different when comparing the ones made for the 2002-2005 flavors...and the ones that followed later on. And so it is this possible 'mixing of mechanical metaphors' with these subtle variations in mis-matched hardware that prompts my curiosity and concern.

By the way...When the New Cam Phaser arrives... the fine print in the installation instructions should indicate that it has come to you from the factory... already Pre-Loaded. ;-)

 

[Bondo07]

Cool. Preloaded from factory is a good thing. Lol. I'm hoping to get this thing running asap as I've stated before my spare vehicle (96 cavalier) was on its last legs, well the transmission just took a shit on me so now there's even more pressure for me to finish this project. Just my luck....

 

[mrrsm]

If I may... I'd like to suggest something important and worth mentioning that might prevent anything in the near term with your "Rapid Rebuild" from causing you any more grief:

"More Haste... Less Speed" ...(and one other)... "Softly... Softly ... Catchee Monkey..."

These two idioms essentially mean the same thing. "The Hurrier You Go... The Behinder You Get...". Written throughout the history of repairing and fixing things and strewn about all over the place are the Abandoned Skeletons of Projects that have broken down in ways that could have been predicted and prevented ...had the Mechanic only Paused... Considered... Consulted...and then Decided on the best courses of action to take first… in order to prevent things from going sideways after just diving headlong in to do the work.

Right now... You are #1 on the Runway and you and only a handful of others are very much admired around this place because of taking your Engines from Parts and Pieces through the complexities and technical phases of disassembly and rebuilding phase... Faster than anyone else around... Or perhaps for you ...not quite yet. If you consider the latest stumbling block that MUST be overcome before the project will be equal as a success to your original level of aspirations, if this present predicament cannot be resolved with the Tech II Updates and CASE Relearn, then you'll almost certainly be back to square one and have to start all over again.

Rightly so... I’ve been accused of “Dragging my Feet” while working on two of these engines in tandem. Ironically this expression turns out to be true in my case, as this is the unfortunate real artifact of having my left side dragging ever since my project crippled me while working on it. My cautious and reserved approach is ever present because I cannot bring myself to do anything around these machines that will invite the slightest chance the engine rebuilds and/or repairs will end in failure.

Somewhere in between, there is a balance that can be struck between our two diametrically opposite approaches that others will need to know… Something that is neither as too slow and cautionary as mine has been… nor perhaps as hasty as yours. In the near term… before you decide to do any work more on this Engine, I’d like to encourage you to create questions in your mind about what you want to do and then ask them out loud here... rhetorically... and seek the alternative ideas and considerations that just might slow you down just long enough to give you pause ...and change your mind about taking actions that could invite bigger problems.

There is a 75/25% chance that there will always be someone on-line here at GMT Nation with the answers to those questions very nearby and willing to help. There are many of us who know only too well that the GM Atlas LL8 4.2L Engine is “The Nightmare Fun House of Engine Repairs” and that it hides more Bugs in it than a Bait Shop ...just waiting to Bite. You have no idea how much we all want you to succeed. The help available here will be worthwhile seeking… and having patience while waiting for the answers. ;>)

 

[Torker]

Good read and pics. My last rebuild was a smallblock chevy. The more I read about this Atlas it is crazy.. I am going to keep my oil oh so clean .. haha You do have some of the best help on the planet right here looks like..

 

[Bondo07]

Thanks guys for all the help. Yea I turned my "rush" into a need for quality so I literally spent the last little bit of my money on new parts to prevent a probably future disaster on my roughly $1700+ rebuild on a $300 truck. Overall I'm not trying to toot my own horn, but I think not bad for a 27 year old single father with no formal training in this field. My only training is personal experience and persistence. Not gonna let this get me down now.

 

[Bondo07]

Quick update of my headache. So I pulled the valve cover to swap the phaser, and did my best to keep tension on the chain even shoved a long bar down to attempt to keep the tensioner in place. When I removed the phaser I distinctly heard the tensioner click out. A few tools mysteriously gained flight across the garage.... So now here I am I have all the front accessories off, main pulley removed, and all the timing cover bolts off. Is there ANY way of removing the cover without dropping the whole freaking oil pan again?

 

[Mooseman]

Unfortunately, no because of the oil pump.

Check in @MRRSM 's thread where he made a tool using a length of wire with a bend on the end to get at the tensioner locking arm.

The best way I have had success is with the hook style chain keepers.

Yeah, I know, another expense. Maybe you can fabricate something. Just be careful not to skip the chain on the lower gear.

 

[Bondo07]

The chain already fell loose. I have no choice but to pull the timing cover off now

 

[Mooseman]

Well, at least you already did the flying tool ritual. I feel your pain

 

[Bondo07]

Ok update time. Successfully dropped the pan (along with the cv shafts, diff, disconnect, steering rack, crossmember, etc) and successfully installed the new phaser and reinstalled the timing chain. Also installed the new cpas. No pics this time. Timing cover reinstalled with fresh sealant, pickup tube back in, and oil pan bolted back on with fresh sealant as well. I hope I didn't rub off too much silicone wiggling that thing back up in place. Took 3 tries of putting it up, realizing I rubbed off some, reapplying some more, and finally got it up there hopefully with enough sealant to not leak. I think I put too much on anyways so that might possibly be my saving grace. Got all the 13mm bolts tight, finished with the small 10mm bolts in back and front, and when one of the small 10mm bolts up front snapped off on me (seems to be a problem with this build) I called it a night before my anguish leads to more mistakes. Looking forward to taking more vacation from work on Friday, so here's to that. Goodnight.

 

[Bondo07]

Ok so I got everything assembled. What a pain. I hope these extra bolts are just extras from my parts truck..... Oil is in, coolant is in, no leaks, and for some reason I can't bring myself to try to start this thing. Anyone else have this kind of wrench anxiety? I'm going to bed and gonna look over everything tomorrow and have an extra hand before I fire this thing up. Any suggestions? Maybe with 8 hours of sleep ill have a more clear mind to fire this thing up. I just don't wanna run into something and ruin my good nights sleep.

 

[NJTB]

Almost every time I start a new build.

 

[m.mcmillen]

I do a lot of engine work (heads, timing belts and chains) at work and on the side at home. I get nervous every time I do anything. I'm more scared of pistons and valves hitting. I'll turn the engine over by hand more times than you really have to. Just to be sure everything is ok.

 

[Bondo07]

Its running. No cel, good oil pressure. Idle is fine. Think I won on this one?

 

[Bondo07]

Check engine light came back on. Same codes. So time to do a case relearn and hope that fixes it. Its not stumbling as bad at idle as it did before, so that's a plus right?

 

[Mooseman]

It will definitely need a CASE relearn. It shouldn't stumble at all even without the relearn. It might improve once the PCM learns its new engine environment.

Don't even look at that oil pressure gauge. It's fake. Readings are fabricated by the PCM. The sensor is just an on/off switch like an idiot light. Good thing is you do have oil pressure. How much is unknown.

 

[Bondo07]

Good news and bad news, good news is the idle surging is NOT because of the vvt issues. Bad news is I'm pretty sure my a.c. compressor is having issues. Gonna swap it for the one on the parts truck and see if that fixes it. Idles just fine without the a.c./defrost, once I turn it on it surges and eventually dies. Turn the blower fan on but shut a.c. off and it Idles fine again.

 

[Mooseman]

Normally I'd say it's because the throttle body is dirty and the PCM is trying to run as if it was clean, which is the symptom you're describing but I'm sure your TB is clean.

 

[Tiggerr]

Good news and bad news, good news is the idle surging is NOT because of the vvt issues. Bad news is I'm pretty sure my a.c. compressor is having issues. Gonna swap it for the one on the parts truck and see if that fixes it. Idles just fine without the a.c./defrost, once I turn it on it surges and eventually dies. Turn the blower fan on but shut a.c. off and it Idles fine again.

Mine does that too sometimes, clean TB and all.. never have found a cause... chalked it up as a quirk of these trucks..
once in a great while it'll even stall if idling for a long time...

 

[Mooseman]

Mine always had an off-idle stumble but never stalled. Never figured it out neither.