Kooks 4.2L I6 Header

[HARDTRAILZ]

It does matter. They made claims and need to back them up.

 

[Bartonmd]

mpg numbers... meh... does it really matter? even with an optimistic gain, its going to take a lot of mileage to save $900 worth of gas...

It only matters because he (Joe, the guy who no longer works for Kooks) was selling it as paying for itself in fuel savings. Other than that, it doesn't matter, because I wouldn't think it would be something that somebody would buy for mileage, alone. It's free to hypermile, and it has better results than most any mod.

Mike

 

[fishsticks]

It does matter. They made claims and need to back them up.

Since I probably have one of the worst MPG TBs on the road, I'll let you know if my pig gets better MPG once I put them on.

 

[Rudeawakening]

Even so, I would think +30 hp is pretty worth it ontop of any MPG gains.

 

[Bartonmd]

Even so, I would think +30 hp is pretty worth it ontop of any MPG gains.

See post 146.

Mike

 

[Pittdawg]

From their Facebook page:

As I said originally, I'd really like to have seen tuned stock in that mix, as well! The header graph looks pretty much the same as stock, except above 5k, without the tune. Hard telling how much of that is just any bad fueling with the new header with stock tune, and how much of it is the header.

This is from a thread here on GMTN, tuned vs. stock on an I6 TB. Looks similar to the tuned header vs. header stock tune, as far as just the tune adding the ton of midrange.

Mike

Mike I totally agree about the need for a tuned stock dyno needed. Unfortunately, it does not appear that the header adds much at all over a tune alone. I still commend Kooks for undertaking this project but just a little disappointing. It appears the stock manifolds (other than cracking) are close to maxed out already. I wonder how my ceramic coated extrude hone manifold performs compared to these headers???

 

[novajoe]

Please do no do any more mods until we get the mpg numbers they promised.

I have started to log the mpg and will repeat the same driveing I did before and will post up the resaults once the drive is done. I took a three month average to make sure that I had a good general image of the mileage.

And yes I will not be adding any new mods till the testing is done.

 

[fishsticks]

Mike I totally agree about the need for a tuned stock dyno needed. Unfortunately, it does not appear that the header adds much at all over a tune alone. I still commend Kooks for undertaking this project but just a little disappointing. It appears the stock manifolds (other than cracking) are close to maxed out already. I wonder how my ceramic coated extrude hone manifold performs compared to these headers???

I realize you have some money tied up in the stock manifolds, so there's a want to validate that investment. But I really think you're missing the big picture here. Take a step back and realize that these were installed on a bone stock TrailBlazer and were dyno'd through a stock exhaust system. Do you really expect 30hp peak over stock under those conditions? Of course not. Bolt-on hp adders are multiplicative, not additive. Supporting mods will obviously allow these to come into their own.

Any header manufacturer who claims 30-40hp on a stock motor is blowing smoke up your ass. It doesn't work that way. I'd wait for someone with some other bolt-ons (or preferably some headwork) to do "before and after" dyno pulls before I'd call these "disappointing."

Your sig says you have headwork done. Have you had your truck on a dyno for proper tuning yet?

 

[v7guy]

The problem with the graph posted by barton is that it's from a 2007 vehicle. So it's got the better heads. There also isn't any good pictures of the entire dyno sheet from the 2007 vehicle to compare the numbers. So comparatively the dyno sheet barton posted is not really applicable to the conversation.

It would appear that the headers do smooth out the torque and horsepower throughout the curve in the higher rpms. But down low where we spend a significant amount of our driving it reduces our horsepower and torque until 3k rpm. This "might" be worthwhile for daily driving, for offroad driving it would probably be detrimental to do headers. I know I spend very little time above 3k rpms unless I'm rompin up some hill... and oil starvation has been a bigger worry than power as far as that is concerned.

For a 9 year old vehicle, if my manifold cracked, i'd take a hard look at the header/cat, $910 ain't horrible considering the cat would probably be short on life when the manifold cracks.


I'd like to see a dyno pull on an early vehicle with a tune.

 

[Pittdawg]

I realize you have some money tied up in the stock manifolds, so there's a want to validate that investment. But I really think you're missing the big picture here. Take a step back and realize that these were installed on a bone stock TrailBlazer and were dyno'd through a stock exhaust system. Do you really expect 30hp peak over stock under those conditions? Of course not. Bolt-on hp adders are multiplicative, not additive. Supporting mods will obviously allow these to come into their own.

Any header manufacturer who claims 30-40hp on a stock motor is blowing smoke up your ass. It doesn't work that way. I'd wait for someone with some other bolt-ons (or preferably some headwork) to do "before and after" dyno pulls before I'd call these "disappointing."

Your sig says you have headwork done. Have you had your truck on a dyno for proper tuning yet?

No. I can't find a good local dyno tuning facility.

 

[fishsticks]

No. I can't find a good local dyno tuning facility.

Check out "Do It Dyno" in Signal Hill. I've read good things about them from some folks (I'm too far away to make a trip myself). They service a lot of imports, but I imagine they'd work with you if you brought tuning software.

It would appear that the headers do smooth out the torque and horsepower throughout the curve in the higher rpms. But down low where we spend a significant amount of our driving it reduces our horsepower and torque until 3k rpm. This "might" be worthwhile for daily driving, for offroad driving it would probably be detrimental to do headers. I know I spend very little time above 3k rpms unless I'm rompin up some hill... and oil starvation has been a bigger worry than power as far as that is concerned.

I disagree. If you're in a crawl, you don't need much power at all. Your gearing and the TB's auto trans and relatively loose stall converter will make all the torque multiplication you need. I don't think there's a huge BENEFIT on the trail either mind you.

But for a heavy, unaerodynamic offroad rig (ie mine), I'd sure like to have some more area under the curve. That'll help my drive TO the trail, especially if I'm loaded with gear and/or towing my other crawler. For those with problems keeping converter lockup on the freeway (because they haven't geared correctly for bigger tires) this may provide some help as well. May.

I could care less about "peak" power.

 

[v7guy]

Fish, it sounds like you almost completely agree with me, am I missing something?

There's a good bit of power gain from 3500-5000 rpms, especially of significance is torque. But how much time do we spend there? Do you usually see those kinda rpms while towing? I could see it might help while towing up a hill, but I can't see it being significant in any other scenario.

 

[BoldAdventure]

I should probably check GMT a little bit more. Is it to late to the game to get in on these by chance?

 

[fishsticks]

Fish, it sounds like you almost completely agree with me, am I missing something?

There's a good bit of power gain from 3500-5000 rpms, especially of significance is torque. But how much time do we spend there? Do you usually see those kinda rpms while towing? I could see it might help while towing up a hill, but I can't see it being significant in any other scenario.

for offroad driving it would probably be detrimental to do headers.

That was the only part I disagreed with.

 

[marshall@pcm]

As far as the final pull appearing to only be an advantage above 3000 rpms, that's a little misleading. It only looks like that because we started the pull later than the other ones. Had we start them at the same rpm, the final graph would look much better than it does(where you're looking). It would be greater than, and at least equal to, the other pulls.

 

[HARDTRAILZ]

As far as the final pull appearing to only be an advantage above 3000 rpms, that's a little misleading. It only looks like that because we started the pull later than the other ones. Had we start them at the same rpm, the final graph would look much better than it does(where you're looking). It would be greater than, and at least equal to, the other pulls.

Why would you give us data that we cant compare apples to apples?

 

[jimmyjam]

Every dyno run ive done, the speed is calibrated at 3k rpm

 

[rmsg0040]

any sound clips of the new headers?

 

[marshall@pcm]

Why would you give us data that we cant compare apples to apples?

Not many people at all are concerned with numbers that low in the RPM range. Anyone that's ever looked at many dyno pulls, and understands this stuff, should know that you aren't gonna loose 25 hp and 50 tq at 2500 rpms.

 

[marshall@pcm]

Every dyno run ive done, the speed is calibrated at 3k rpm

What?

 

[HARDTRAILZ]

Not many people at all are concerned with numbers that low in the RPM range. Anyone that's ever looked at many dyno pulls, and understands this stuff, should know that you aren't gonna loose 25 hp and 50 tq at 2500 rpms.

Sadly several us around here are more concerned with those numbers than the peak numbers. These are not sports/race vehicles, but DD, wheelers, and family haulers we enjoy. They are used in the lower RPM's exponentially more than the upper range.

I never look at dyno's because I don't have much reason to. I get a reason to look the dyno #'s here, but the data has failed me. It does not give me equal numbers and that was not even explained until the data was questioned.

 

[marshall@pcm]

Understandable. Had we known that the results from 1500 RPMs and up were wanted by a few people, we might would have made the pulls from a lower RPM. Sorry for the lack of explanation, but like I said, it's typically a non-issue. Out of the hundreds of dyno graphs I've discussed with people over the years, never has there been any interest in the very low rpms.

 

[jimmyjam]

What?

accelerate to 3rd gear, lock the trans, lock the tc, hold at 3k rpm, sync the dyno, smash the gas

what people here fail to understand that dyno data is at WOT. any time you are driving and go WOT your car is going to upshift. of what value is data of an engine 1500rpm at WOT? your torque converter will flash higher than that. next we are going to hear we want a dyno graph showing various part throttle and air mass histograms... god bless you professional vendors for your patience. i have to wonder what the motivation is for people to ask for and be so deeply dissapointed with the lack of irrelavant data

anyway marshall has better things to do, like box up my 4L80e conversion harness

 

[rmsg0040]

Hardtrailz seems like a hard azz, here's him in another thread:

http://gmtnation.com/f18/cordless-impact-driver-5714/


Just wondering when will these be available for sale through kooks?

 

[jrSS]

Kyle (hardtrailz) is a good guy. Knows his shit on and offroad. He just don't like stupid ignorant questions. Nothing personal.

 

[Voymom]

Kyle (hardtrailz) is a good guy. Knows his shit on and offroad. He just don't like stupid ignorant questions. Nothing personal.

I didn't think there was ever a thing as a stupid question

But then again, that may be why I don't post here that often anymore....those who call others stupid, are the ignorant ones. Try teaching, not insulting, after all that is what the forum is here for right?

 

[rmsg0040]

Kyle (hardtrailz) is a good guy. Knows his shit on and offroad. He just don't like stupid ignorant questions. Nothing personal.

I was wondering this myself as he seems offroad savvy but when I was reading the cordless impact thread he seemed like he was hardballing everybody

Wheels are torqued 100 ft lb, his argument essentially was that a cordless impact with 100 ft lb should be able to take them

Got me flamed up b/c any who has worked with a cordless or air impact knows this aint true.

Thats all folks

Now back to the thread

 

[fishsticks]

Sadly several us around here are more concerned with those numbers than the peak numbers. These are not sports/race vehicles, but DD, wheelers, and family haulers we enjoy. They are used in the lower RPM's exponentially more than the upper range.

I never look at dyno's because I don't have much reason to. I get a reason to look the dyno #'s here, but the data has failed me. It does not give me equal numbers and that was not even explained until the data was questioned.

I guess I'm part of that block of people you're referring to? IMO, it's pretty easy to extrapolate the curves down from 3k RPM. But really, at those RPMs, you are at light throttle anyway. A dyno graph can only give you an idea about part throttle response. It's not a direct correlation. Hell, a dyno graph is only really "accurate" for the vehicle it was run for, and an estimation for everyone else.

This is about as throttle heavy as I can see being in our trucks on the trail. As you can see, more power wasn't going to help much.

[video=youtube;sKfEXIsiQA0]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sKfEXIsiQA0[/video]

If I am towing, I'm in D3 and near or over 3K rpm while cruising. This is not an off-road mod Kyle, this is a street mod that happens to help us when we're not on the trail. Looking for a direct benefit to wheeling is going to come up with a big zero.

 

[jrSS]

I was wondering this myself as he seems offroad savvy but when I was reading the cordless impact thread he seemed like he was hardballing everybody

Wheels are torqued 100 ft lb, his argument essentially was that a cordless impact with 100 ft lb should be able to take them

Got me flamed up b/c any who has worked with a cordless or air impact knows this aint true.

Thats all folks

Now back to the thread

Touche'...carry on

 

[HARDTRAILZ]

I dont think it will help offroad. Low range does plenty for us. I really want to justify these but cant unless you need a manifold anyway.

Its like a CAI. Minor street benefit...maybe. But nothing for offroad.

 

[fishsticks]

I dont think it will help offroad. Low range does plenty for us. I really want to justify these but cant unless you need a manifold anyway.

Its like a CAI. Minor street benefit...maybe. But nothing for offroad.

As I said:

This is not an off-road mod Kyle, this is a street mod that happens to help us when we're not on the trail. Looking for a direct benefit to wheeling is going to come up with a big zero.

Best I can come up with offroad wise is these won't crack during a water crossing.

 

[HARDTRAILZ]

I do not think they will help Offroad or want a reason for them to help Offroad.

I cant see the benefit on road...at this price point...unless you need a manifold, like you did.

 

[Rudeawakening]

I cant wait to hear more feed back on these headers. It feels like its been forever.

 

[mark'stb]

Any idea when these will be available before I spend the money I saved for them on something else?

 

[marshall@pcm]

Should be ready in a couple of weeks.

 

[redleg6]

after a google search (this was a while ago), I got a hit on a site that suprised me...

https://www.deloreanindustries.com/...headers-with-1-3-4-primaries-and-2-5-cat.html

after a few email exchanges with a guy named Josh, I got this,

We will check with stainless works first thing Wednesday to make sure it is still in production. We do not have one in inventory currently and their product offering switches at the end of the year. We will be in touch.

I'm only interested in the aspect that it looks like clean after install and will add to my somewhat modified exhaust system. Don't really care about hp numbers.

(I never got a reply from Josh.)

 

[rmsg0040]

I believe those were made by stainless works and are no longer in production

 

[redleg6]

I believe those were made by stainless works and are no longer in production

yep, spot on mate....and it seems to be true they aren't making them, just thought it was neat that someone had made some besides kooks

 

[ScarabEpic22]

yep, spot on mate....and it seems to be true they aren't making them, just thought it was neat that someone had made some besides kooks

SW made the mistake of never getting a before/after dyno on the same truck so we had no way of knowing how much power they actually made.

Glad Kooks stepped up and is offering these, just waiting on the email to charge my CC for it!

 

[DenaliHD66]

So have a lot of people already installed these headers and cats? What has been the prognosis of using them by now?