SOLVED! Intermittent stops cranking during start attempt
- Thread starter movietvet
- Start date
You are correct.HI RON! .. I dont wanna pause the video right now
I guess you can click on the spoiler I posted back on page 1..
I might have been wrong.. Only time will tell!
I installed before noon today and I went to have my typical taco lunch with my American Legion friends and she went to the store and the stop cranking with key in crank position, did it again. I need to get it to fail and stay failed so I can test at the starter and flow of power. Crap. Makes for a good video though.@TollKeeper, clues as to what is going on? I know it is a separate problem from the intermittent long crank before engine start. That is fuel pressure related and I have seen the pressure bleed off. This is not that. Best WAG, is a starter problem or loss of 12 volts to the starter solenoid.
Mooseman
Moderator
Nice video. Apart from the video being sideways, if the battery was disconnected, why was the courtesy light on and you were able to start it right away? 
We would love to see a video of what it's doing. Probably a shot of you turning the key and looking at the gauges at the same time while we also listen to what the engine/starter are doing. You can also add some commentary while doing it. I think that might help a lot. If it's intermittent though, it will be difficult to catch.
We would love to see a video of what it's doing. Probably a shot of you turning the key and looking at the gauges at the same time while we also listen to what the engine/starter are doing. You can also add some commentary while doing it. I think that might help a lot. If it's intermittent though, it will be difficult to catch.
Because it had started to rain, I had rushed out and connected the battery and should have explained in video but only did mention that it had started to rain. My girl said someone would mention that.Nice video. Apart from the video being sideways, if the battery was disconnected, why was the courtesy light on and you were able to start it right away?
We would love to see a video of what it's doing. Probably a shot of you turning the key and looking at the gauges at the same time while we also listen to what the engine/starter are doing. You can also add some commentary while doing it. I think that might help a lot. If it's intermittent though, it will be difficult to catch.
Yea, if I get it to malfunction, I can pinpoint the problem. A new AC Delco starter assembly is $115 at RA plus shipping and is $121 at Amazon, free shipping.
She knows if I am here and she is leaving and it does it, hold the key with one hand and do not let go and call me on cell to come out with DVOM and start checking.
Dont bother with a new starter relay, just swap its position with a relay in the fuse box. I think most do it with the fan relay. Or go grab a handful from a junkyard.
I am really confused to be honest. Is it extended crank time? Or is it cranking then stopping? Both?
2 different scenarios that require 2 different course of diagnostics.
If its cranking, and then stopping all on its own, swap relays. If the problem continues, than I would almost think its a crank amp draw issue, and the PCM is going into integrity protection, or a voltage drop, and the PCM is doing integrity protection mode. One is starter related, the other is battery related.
If its extended cranking, than my post on page 1, at time of issue, would have to be pursued.
I am really confused to be honest. Is it extended crank time? Or is it cranking then stopping? Both?
2 different scenarios that require 2 different course of diagnostics.
If its cranking, and then stopping all on its own, swap relays. If the problem continues, than I would almost think its a crank amp draw issue, and the PCM is going into integrity protection, or a voltage drop, and the PCM is doing integrity protection mode. One is starter related, the other is battery related.
If its extended cranking, than my post on page 1, at time of issue, would have to be pursued.
Yes, I have posted TWO different problems. The long crank before starting is related to fuel pressure drop when sitting for a long enough period of time. I have tested for and know I need to do fuel pump eventually.
The problem I have at the moment is that while the key is turned to crank position, the cranking will just STOP, and if cycle the key, it will crank and start. I keep two extra relays in my tool box and did try that relay and was no help and then decided to go for the OE ignition switch path. That was not a fix. I do have now, the initial switch I took out and replaced because of what I had heard here on this forum. I was having no problems but wanted to be ahead of the game. I have no idea who made the first one but it did have the grey panel. Then the stop cranking problem started and since I had replaced the first one with a grey panel aftermarket switch from Standard Parts, I decided to replace it with the AC Delco that I did the video with. It too has a grey panel. Now I have two known good ignition switches, with the grey panels, as extras.
Like you, I am now convinced that the problem lies with the starter or the battery or cables and a voltage drop problem. I am waiting for the time that I can catch the intermittent problem, while it is happening, and I can run some tests.
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This Scenario your are facing plays right into attempting to perform a Simple Diagnostic called a "Voltage Drop Test" that is often mentioned (and seldom understood) for its value in Diagnosing Starter Problems by using a DMM to Correctly Measure the Difference in Electrical Potential on a Starter Circuit.
If you are having any issues with Current Flow on the Power Side of the Start - Run Sequence and Hidden Copper Corrosion or Hidden Cable Wire Damage is involved... THIS Test will help to reveal this issue.
This situation invites performing this "Power Drop Test" as either a Positive to Positive Power Cable Voltage Measurement... or a Negative to Negative Ground Cable Voltage Measurement... THAT CAN ONLY OCCUR WHILE THE STARTER IS BEING ACTIVATED AND CURRENT IS FLOWING.
Nobody will EVER explain the value of using this poorly understood method and its procedures better than Paul "Scanner" Danner. And so we are fortunate that he provides this very Instruction WITH A CLASS ROOM LESSON, ASSISTED BY USING THIS SIMPLE DIAGRAM... in the following two Videos:
During this Basic Voltage Drop Test looking for Loaded, Cranking Starter Circuit Integrity ...Scanner-Danner and his son Caleb use a Probe Light instead of a DMM in a Very Direct Manner to QUICKLY Diagnose this Problem:
If you are having any issues with Current Flow on the Power Side of the Start - Run Sequence and Hidden Copper Corrosion or Hidden Cable Wire Damage is involved... THIS Test will help to reveal this issue.
This situation invites performing this "Power Drop Test" as either a Positive to Positive Power Cable Voltage Measurement... or a Negative to Negative Ground Cable Voltage Measurement... THAT CAN ONLY OCCUR WHILE THE STARTER IS BEING ACTIVATED AND CURRENT IS FLOWING.
Nobody will EVER explain the value of using this poorly understood method and its procedures better than Paul "Scanner" Danner. And so we are fortunate that he provides this very Instruction WITH A CLASS ROOM LESSON, ASSISTED BY USING THIS SIMPLE DIAGRAM... in the following two Videos:
During this Basic Voltage Drop Test looking for Loaded, Cranking Starter Circuit Integrity ...Scanner-Danner and his son Caleb use a Probe Light instead of a DMM in a Very Direct Manner to QUICKLY Diagnose this Problem:
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I do understand and have done literally gobs of voltage drop tests over the years and found many problems with that test, especially in the salt on the roads area of KC, Mo., where I used to live. Wire insulation can hide corrosion that is a good source of voltage drop. An obvious example would be the swollen insulation near the white crusty corroded battery cable connection but it also happens at the other end as well. Most of the time the problem happens slowly and the voltage drop will cause a low amount of voltage at the starter and you get that rapid clicking sound, like a low battery, even though the battery has a full charge. This problem will not defeat me. I will find it and post the repair result here. Any other shared info is greatly appreciated.
Of course...Please know that most of my responses are meant to explain things as much as possible given my understanding of certain problem solving for others who may come to Your Thread in the future with similar symptoms to overcome... But NOT possess your obvious Skill Set to fall back upon.
As for your Video Creation Efforts... To your credit... Benjamin Franklin once said it best...
"Well Done...Is BETTER... Than Well Said..."
As for your Video Creation Efforts... To your credit... Benjamin Franklin once said it best...
"Well Done...Is BETTER... Than Well Said..."
The thing that did not lead me to a voltage drop test in the first place, is that the problem is not a slow diminishing of voltage that could cause a slow crank effect or even the rapid clicking of the solenoid I referred to in my previous response. This problem leads me to believe that there may not be a voltage drop problem but an intermittent failure of the starter solenoid. It literally just stops cranking, like shutting off a light switch and a cycle of the key cures the no crank problem.
Also, I hate context when typing responses sometimes. I know you meant no slight at what I am experiencing and my steps so far. What does bug me is that the problem did not show until I installed the first ignition switch based off of the warnings I found here. It was an upgraded switch, because, like I said, it was a grey panel switch but of unknown manufacture. The one I replaced it with was a grey panel switch that was a Standard Parts switch. But, if anyone needs a grey panel switch, cheap, I got two of them.
Also, I hate context when typing responses sometimes. I know you meant no slight at what I am experiencing and my steps so far. What does bug me is that the problem did not show until I installed the first ignition switch based off of the warnings I found here. It was an upgraded switch, because, like I said, it was a grey panel switch but of unknown manufacture. The one I replaced it with was a grey panel switch that was a Standard Parts switch. But, if anyone needs a grey panel switch, cheap, I got two of them.
Mooseman
Moderator
Your last description is making me think of this. When I had my 02, at first, it didn't have, what I call, "flick start" where you turn the key to start and release and it keeps cranking until it does start. After I got my PCM updated by the dealer to correct another issue, I discovered it now had flick start.
Fast forward to my 07, it has flick start and works as it should, however, I have a minor issue with the key. When I turn the key fast all the way to the end of travel to CRANK, it doesn't crank. But, if I let it go slowly from there, it will start to crank. And if I turn the key slowly to crank, it starts cranking just barely out of the detent for the RUN position. Either I have a misaligned ignition switch gear or there is a minor variance in the switch or key cylinder.
Try using flick start and different positions with the key to crank. Maybe yours hasn't had the update and doesn't have flick start. If yours has the same issue as my 07, maybe you're going through the motion into the CRANK until the end of travel and then stops cranking? Try stopping moving the key in the middle of travel into the CRANK position.
Fast forward to my 07, it has flick start and works as it should, however, I have a minor issue with the key. When I turn the key fast all the way to the end of travel to CRANK, it doesn't crank. But, if I let it go slowly from there, it will start to crank. And if I turn the key slowly to crank, it starts cranking just barely out of the detent for the RUN position. Either I have a misaligned ignition switch gear or there is a minor variance in the switch or key cylinder.
Try using flick start and different positions with the key to crank. Maybe yours hasn't had the update and doesn't have flick start. If yours has the same issue as my 07, maybe you're going through the motion into the CRANK until the end of travel and then stops cranking? Try stopping moving the key in the middle of travel into the CRANK position.
I will take a look at what you are saying later today. I do need to be clear though. When the key is moved all the way to the crank position and held there, it cranks like any normal vehicle would and has done so thru all the ignition switch changes.
The problem is that when the engine is cranking and key is still held all the way in the crank position, just all of a sudden, the engine cranking just stops and so far, will not continue to crank till cycle key to off and then back to crank position and then the engine cranks again and does start. My problem for the diagnosis is that we have yet to hold it in the "fail" position until I can test or the problem happens away from my equipment at home. It is her vehicle, so I am in that vehicle with her hardly ever. Owned since December and have been in vehicle at same time maybe twice.
On the Off Chance that this information is helpful... Here are some Diagrams of the Trailblazer Starter Circuit, a Close Up POV at the Ignition Switch Harness Connector if probing becomes necessary... and two Videos from Eric "O" at South Main Auto up in Avica, NY that, while not precisely covering this issue... may lead to some other ideas or approaches in solving "The Mystery of The Cut-Off Starting Sequence":
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I got to back pedal here..
I was in in complete agreeance with you about the starter solenoid, UNTIL, you said that if you cycle the key, it works again. A faulty solenoid wouldnt do that. If it was faulty, it would stop working, until it cooled down, or whatever..
I am really leaning towards a bad relay.
But I do have a request, next time you are starting it, and it stops cranking, keep holding it in the crank position, but try to wiggle the key, and to try to turn it just a bit further. I am thinking that it may be slightly out of sequence on the ignition switch cam. But this is just a theory, but I have a basis for it.
My Rendezvous I sold a couple years ago, I had to remove the ignition key switch so I could get keys made for the truck. I replaced the ignition switch while I was in there, and I installed it 1 tooth off.. I did not know this when I did it. But... If I turned the key switch just a bit further, the truck would start. I just left it, being lazy
. But I knew what had to be done, and I explained it to my wife, so she also knew, and the new owner when I sold it.
I am rooting for you that its something simpler than a starter.. If I am remembering correctly, the ones on the 4.2 are a pain in the ass to replace. Still easier than the 5.3/6.0!
I was in in complete agreeance with you about the starter solenoid, UNTIL, you said that if you cycle the key, it works again. A faulty solenoid wouldnt do that. If it was faulty, it would stop working, until it cooled down, or whatever..
I am really leaning towards a bad relay.
But I do have a request, next time you are starting it, and it stops cranking, keep holding it in the crank position, but try to wiggle the key, and to try to turn it just a bit further. I am thinking that it may be slightly out of sequence on the ignition switch cam. But this is just a theory, but I have a basis for it.
My Rendezvous I sold a couple years ago, I had to remove the ignition key switch so I could get keys made for the truck. I replaced the ignition switch while I was in there, and I installed it 1 tooth off.. I did not know this when I did it. But... If I turned the key switch just a bit further, the truck would start. I just left it, being lazy
. But I knew what had to be done, and I explained it to my wife, so she also knew, and the new owner when I sold it.I am rooting for you that its something simpler than a starter.. If I am remembering correctly, the ones on the 4.2 are a pain in the ass to replace. Still easier than the 5.3/6.0!
I have installed a Genuine GM relay a few responses back and still have the problem. When I got the rig, I had found out here about problematic ignition switches and so I did review install steps at you tube. I know I keyed the cam gear on the switch correctly, both the first time I replaced with the Standard Parts switch and recently with the AC Delco switch. Mind you, I had no problems with the switch that came with the rig when I bought it in December but I also had not had that many key cycles after the purchase, before I installed the Standard parts switch. For all I know, I was gonna have the same problem I have now, eventually, but who knows. At this point, I am tempted to spend literally less than 10 minutes and reinstall the original switch that came with the rig in December and see what happens.I got to back pedal here..
I was in in complete agreeance with you about the starter solenoid, UNTIL, you said that if you cycle the key, it works again. A faulty solenoid wouldnt do that. If it was faulty, it would stop working, until it cooled down, or whatever..
I am really leaning towards a bad relay.
But I do have a request, next time you are starting it, and it stops cranking, keep holding it in the crank position, but try to wiggle the key, and to try to turn it just a bit further. I am thinking that it may be slightly out of sequence on the ignition switch cam. But this is just a theory, but I have a basis for it.
My Rendezvous I sold a couple years ago, I had to remove the ignition key switch so I could get keys made for the truck. I replaced the ignition switch while I was in there, and I installed it 1 tooth off.. I did not know this when I did it. But... If I turned the key switch just a bit further, the truck would start. I just left it, being lazy
I am rooting for you that its something simpler than a starter.. If I am remembering correctly, the ones on the 4.2 are a pain in the ass to replace. Still easier than the 5.3/6.0!
I will be trying to MAKE it mess up and see what lights, if any, are on at the dash and do the key wiggle instead of the cycle of the key to off and crank again.
Do keep in mind that the "detents" and the spring back from crank is all a function of the switch itself. There are no "stops" or "detents" in the cylinder/housing assembly other than the ends of the rotation. The cylinder spins freely to the extents of rotational travel, except of course for the park/lock. So regardless of where the switch/cylinder gear alignment is, a tooth of or not, the relationship between the 'RUN' position and the cam that lifts the contacts remains the same.
Ok, I was able to duplicate the stop cranking problem today and was also actually able to make it not crank at all a couple of times. What I was able to do each time was to just crank/turn the key harder in the crank position and then it would go ahead and continue to crank and go ahead and start. When I did get it to stop cranking and then would actually just turn harder it would then go ahead and crank and start, I actually did not feel the key and housing move. It was just me torguing the key harder and then it would either continue to crank or actually crank for the first time if it was an attempt to crank and start and it never spun the engine. The normal dash lights are on during the cranking process but when it either does not crank at all or stops cranking before the engine starts, just the amber Service Engine Soon light is on. I know that each time I have switched out the ignition switch, I have "keyed" the gear teeth the same as the one that came out but MAYBE, from the start of this ordeal, the one I took out in the beginning, was off a tooth and my ordeal is because of that. Any thoughts? There is a you tube video I am gonna post a link to and if I can duplicate the problem again, I will try the method shown in the video:
It certainly sounds to me like the gear alignment is not correct. I also recently went through this gear alignment issue and discovered that at least for the ignition switch(es) that I have, if I go by the graphics in service literature that I have the alignment is not correct. I had to disregard the picture in the manual that purports to show the switch position for installation.
If you look at the gear teeth alignment in this video and compare it to the video I just posted in #67 and my video in #44, you can see the alignment in this video does not match the alignments in #44 and #67. They are one tooth off and that may well be what is going on. My new ACD switch gear teeth were matched to the initial one that was a Standard Parts switch that was matched to the one that I took out when I bought the rig. It may have been one tooth off all along and I have been matching them accordingly. I am going to pull the new one out tomorrow and realign the teeth and see what that accomplishes. I will post results. I think I should do a video of that and post the results at you tube and here.
Ok, I actually did the repositioning of the ignition switch gear teeth today and I have yet been able to make it fail when trying to crank the engine. Here is the explanation and the video:
Yes, I fit my 2005 Tahoe better than Linda's 2002 TrailBlazer.....wise asses.....
Yes, I fit my 2005 Tahoe better than Linda's 2002 TrailBlazer.....wise asses.....
Up late because could not get to sleep. My girl is flying out today to Texas for a few days to see her daughter.
It has been 10 days since I repositioned the gear teeth on the ignition switch and it cranks as it should each time. I did another video about the spark plugs replacement and the ignition coil boots and springs. Since then, it fires off quicker when cranking. I am now convinced that the ignition switch gear teeth were out of alignment from day one, when we bought the Blazer in December.
Once I get the two new speakers installed in the rear doors, it should be a rig she can actually not worry about driving and actually enjoy it. I am going to take the one working speaker at the left rear door and move it to the driver's door so she has a speaker that plays the door ding tone as well.
It took a while but I am now happier with the Blazer purchase for her. Am gonna keep my eye on the partial fuel pressure bleed off when engine is shut down and eventually do a new fuel pump, I am sure. Problem is, she likes shooting the videos for you tube and I am running out of things to do on her rig.
Not to worry. I do work for members at my American Legion and have a 2008 Duramax HD3500, a 2016 Jeep Wrangler, a 1996 Tacoma 2wd and a 1996 Dodge 2500 HD 4x4 coming up for work for me.
I raised my labor rate from $60 an hour to $75 an hour and that has not phased them a bit. I don't make any money on the parts though. I do charge for tracking them down though and any driving I have to do to get them. My Chevron Plus fuel I use is $4.29 a gallon around here.
It has been 10 days since I repositioned the gear teeth on the ignition switch and it cranks as it should each time. I did another video about the spark plugs replacement and the ignition coil boots and springs. Since then, it fires off quicker when cranking. I am now convinced that the ignition switch gear teeth were out of alignment from day one, when we bought the Blazer in December.
Once I get the two new speakers installed in the rear doors, it should be a rig she can actually not worry about driving and actually enjoy it. I am going to take the one working speaker at the left rear door and move it to the driver's door so she has a speaker that plays the door ding tone as well.
It took a while but I am now happier with the Blazer purchase for her. Am gonna keep my eye on the partial fuel pressure bleed off when engine is shut down and eventually do a new fuel pump, I am sure. Problem is, she likes shooting the videos for you tube and I am running out of things to do on her rig.
Not to worry. I do work for members at my American Legion and have a 2008 Duramax HD3500, a 2016 Jeep Wrangler, a 1996 Tacoma 2wd and a 1996 Dodge 2500 HD 4x4 coming up for work for me.
I raised my labor rate from $60 an hour to $75 an hour and that has not phased them a bit. I don't make any money on the parts though. I do charge for tracking them down though and any driving I have to do to get them. My Chevron Plus fuel I use is $4.29 a gallon around here.
Very interested in this thread. we have an 06 that has been a little slow to start for some time now, but getting worse. sounds like when you have a weak battery but this one is only 4 months old and connections are good. never replaced the ignition switch on this thing (did at least 3 on our old Blazer so I'm familiar but rusty with the concept). thanks for sharing your 'journey' with your starting issue
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Update: My girl went on a trip to visit her daughter and see her granddaughter graduate college, in the Seattle area. Then she went to our camping property about 80 miles north of Seattle. She was gone 10 days and got back last night. She started and stopped that ignition gobs and gobs of times with absolutely no problems at all. The new plugs and coil boots seemed to have also helped with quicker starts. She did not experience any long cranks before starting after sitting overnight. I was worried about the fuel pressure bleed off after engine shut down but in all the fuel pressure gauge testing I did, the pressure bleed off I saw was only down to the 30 psi range, never all the way down.
I do believe that I am on the downhill side of my concerns with my girl's TB. The rear hatch struts are a bit soft feeling and has to be pushed up all the way to stop to get it set to stay. I am worried that it will fall when she is bent in there and it will hit her. While she was gone, I ordered in a pair of Strongarm struts and will install them today. I may make a you tube video if there already isn't a plethora of them.
I do believe that I am on the downhill side of my concerns with my girl's TB. The rear hatch struts are a bit soft feeling and has to be pushed up all the way to stop to get it set to stay. I am worried that it will fall when she is bent in there and it will hit her. While she was gone, I ordered in a pair of Strongarm struts and will install them today. I may make a you tube video if there already isn't a plethora of them.