TB vs 4runner

Playsinsnow

Original poster
Member
Nov 17, 2012
9,727
Real immature thought I know, but if safely locked back ends together with a 4runner you think I stand a chance pulling him?

'05 TB I6, 3.42, G80, stock with K&N, ltx m/s tires on 17s. 117k miles. Very well maintained.

'11 4runner 4.0v6, 3.73(?) lifted a few inches with 265/70/17 bfg rugged terrain t/a. Some 50k miles. Driven hard. Fancy 4wd system.

Would I stand any chance on asphalt/concrete if we tried to pull each other? I know his gears are better for this and on anything that's not pavement he would def get better traction. Haven't been able to find appropriate dyno charts- Do I have enough torque on the low end to get him moving my way first?!?

We were toying around with an '82 K5 Blazer and I started running my mouth when we got back. Please tell me if I should just shut up. He did not want to (we both have done so separately in the past). My apologies for posting this again in a different thread (reality). He doesn't think I stand a chance. Would I? Would his lift and tires help me at all? 2wd for max HP to the wheels (he will be in 4wd. Did not know how to kill traction control until I showed him). 4lo or 2wd?

PS I am cleaning the place for dinner with the in laws (at least I get to grill). I've got all day. Anyone find '05 I6 dyno or a 2011 4.0 V6 (its been updated a few yrs ago like the 4.2 was). Thanks all for being here! Sure the wife doesn't want to hear any of this, lol
 

MAY03LT

Member
Nov 18, 2011
3,412
Delmarva
Don't know who would win but if you do it you gotta film it! I promise the wife won't find out.:biggrin:
 

Playsinsnow

Original poster
Member
Nov 17, 2012
9,727
I would most definitely film it! He was so confident I am surprised he didn't want to give it a go.

Grimor: I agree with you, but if I had more torque on the ground sooner and got moving before he did, on pavement nonetheless, you think I could get moving forward first while his system is trying to figure out how much power and where to send it? 100% at one wheel or 25% at all four really depends on how much ACTUAL power is getting to the ground for traction.

Unfortunately she would find out. I win she knows. I lose I want a 4runner:lipsrsealed:

Its a mighty fine piece of equipment he has. I think he'd get me on anything not pavement and I would get his wheels hopping on pavement if I beat him to gassing it. Dudes got the $$ to buy a new one if I wrecked his. Prob for the best so we remain friends. I thought his lift would give me an advantage on pavement bc of less power to the wheels. Any truth to this?
 

gmcman

Member
Dec 12, 2011
4,656
If you go in 4LO I think you will win especially with the G80 and if you have street tires. What Grimor said, it's all about traction and you have the mechanical advantage with our 4WD system, I would speculate the gearing is in your favor.

The biggest part of your situation is what are you using to connect the vehicles? There will be an immense amount of tension on whatever you are using so proceed with caution. I have seen what a large rope (about 1" in dia) did to the hood, grill, and windshield of an old Silverado when it snapped.

Have no spectators within 3 times the distance of whatever you use to connect the vehicles, place a heavy piece of carpet or old bed comforter over the center of the rope/chain in case it breaks.

We definitely need a video.

Go easy at first until the G80 locks up then give it some gas. You may lose the first few seconds but I feel you will emerge the victor. Just be sure to be in 4LO. I predict he will pull you for about 2-3' then you will reel him back in, just don't give up unless he's dragging you around the parking lot.:biggrin:
 

Playsinsnow

Original poster
Member
Nov 17, 2012
9,727
Safety first, always. Weighted blanket in middle. In HS we just had someone stand 10ft out and drop hands. Then YouTube came out! No hooks, metal, and will wrap a strap. I've seen some gnarly videos myself.

I have 3.42 gears he has 3.73(?) He wins right?
He also has 4hi/lo and auto split for independent wheel traction. Is our 4lo that superior? Thanks for the input. Might have to keep bugging him to do it! Lol.

I really thought I might get him a few feet initially then he would pull to stop and make it a dead heat.
 

MDBT

Member
Jan 26, 2012
223
OP if you have the cash lying around to do the repairs that might result without hurting your bank account then go ahead, have fun, break something, and video it for all of us to watch and chuckle. If not then I would suggest being the bigger man (or at least the one with the bigger brain) and back out of this.
 

Grimor

Member
Mar 28, 2013
954
2" square bar, hitch to hitch... First hitch to come off, looses.


Regardless what you use, chances are at least 1 transmission/transfer case/axle/insert expensive part here will be destroyed.

Still my favorite video
[video=youtube;VciQjhgB66k]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VciQjhgB66k[/video]
 

Playsinsnow

Original poster
Member
Nov 17, 2012
9,727
Grimor said:
2" square bar, hitch to hitch... First hitch to come off, looses.


Regardless what you use, chances are at least 1 transmission/transfer case/axle/insert expensive part here will be destroyed.

Still my favorite video
[video=youtube;VciQjhgB66k]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VciQjhgB66k[/video]

yes that was great and partly responsible for such thought. Both were asshats. Ground rules! Lol

Thanks for editing MDBT, again this was merely garage BS staring at 3 beautiful SUVs. I disclaimed it as immature right away. How else can you measure that my truck is better and I'll prove it? They are not race cars or Econo boxes...? My confidence helped me score my beautiful and amazing wife of 6yrs last Sunday. I pay her car and insurance too. I'm cocky but not a c*ck.
Other have thoughts on possible outcome?

Grimor: you see the brakes on the whole way? There's a grand in tires! Didn't see a hand drop...
 

gmcman

Member
Dec 12, 2011
4,656
Playsinsnow said:
I have 3.42 gears he has 3.73(?) He wins right? Is our 4lo that superior?

Gears are close and since he has larger tires I feel it's moot. Our 4LO is really good but expensive.

His 4Runner is heavy, will come down to how much traction you have. Sounds like he has it built fairly well so like others have said, you may want to rethink this if your TB is your primary vehicle. I pulled an excursion out once that was buried to it's belly in a snow drift, I had wet pavement and I thought I was going to rip my receiver out, lol.

Something else came to mind, the chain/rope must be level. If his receiver is higher it will take weight from your rear axle.
 

Playsinsnow

Original poster
Member
Nov 17, 2012
9,727
gmcman said:
Something else came to mind, the chain/rope must be level. If his receiver is higher it will take weight from your rear axle.

Great point! I didn't think of that. His is higher I'm sure. If I had higher power down faster would it make him squat enough to eliminate him lifting me up in the rear?

I can't imagine something breaking done right. Witnessed many with no short term ills. Not saying it can't happen. This is not something I am planning for. Ain't happening. Simple as that. But the thought of pulling his $50k+ is quite nice. Thought I'd create a discussion to see how outta my mind I am about being able to pull him with my trusty TB, not because I want to yank my innards out the rear end in a failed attempt of machoism. I haven't reved past 2200 rpm in a few weeks...
 

gmcman

Member
Dec 12, 2011
4,656
If theres any aquatting it will be minimal. Attachment device needs to be level.
 

The_Roadie

Lifetime VIP Donor
Member
Nov 19, 2011
9,957
Portland, OR
I would go through the math, and figure out the torque, gear ratio of his 5-speed 1st gear versus your 4 speed AT, then the low range transfer case ratio (his is 2.56 I think and yours is 2.7-to-1) then the differential ratio and then the tire patch and vehicle weights.

And then I'd remember I already did this test against my boss's Wrangler with 33 BFG tires and won because I weighed a LOT more and it all came down to traction, not driveline. I used a steel winch line for the connection.

When I tried to slow tow out a snow-stuck van outside Montrose, CO I broke my G80 carrier. Should have used more dynamic extraction tactics with the stretchy recovery strap.

This proposed pull-off proves very little and I highly recommend against it.

But I'd love to see the pics and hoot at the carnage. :biggrin:

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Playsinsnow

Original poster
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Nov 17, 2012
9,727
the roadie said:
I would go through the math, and figure out the torque, gear ratio of his 5-speed 1st gear versus your 4 speed AT, then the low range transfer case ratio (his is 2.56 I think and yours is 2.7-to-1) then the differential ratio and then the tire patch and vehicle weights.

You have a formula to use? I would definitely crunch the numbers! With the info stated above and his higher hitch height sounds like the deciding factors are in his favor.

Roadie: Could you explain your slow-tow and how it broke the G80? I've pulled others out and would love to know what NOT to do in snow recovery. Always thought a stretchy strap would be most effective? I've only had issues with my own traction on hardpack/ice when trying to extract someone. 4lo did not help last time. Why I was curious as to how "great" our 4lo really is.
 

The_Roadie

Lifetime VIP Donor
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Nov 19, 2011
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Portland, OR
1) The formula would be just a proportional chain. You start with some torque number compared to his. Let's say you have a 5% advantage there. Then you get the ratio of the two vehicle's 1st gear ratios from the transmission specs. Since he has a 5-speed, his low may be lower, so perhaps he has a 8% advantage, leaving you at a 3% disadvantage. Then you compare the transfer case LO range numbers. You may win that by a slight amount. Then the final gear ratio numbers from the differentials. Then the tire diameter. All of this gives you is like what offroaders call the "crawl ratio" which is the ratio of engine RPMs to tire RPMs. Except you want to factor in the torque in the chain as well because that's what puts power to the tires. But almost none of that matters because the last item is the traction you get from the tires on pavement and that's highly dependent on tread design, tire compound hardness, and ESPECIALLY tire PSI. If you're allowed to adjust the tire pressure, go down to 15 PSI and roughly double your traction. Too low and you might spin the tires on the rims. That's why dragster slicks might be run at 4 PSI but they screw the bead to the rim. But you're not going to do this, right?

2) The Colorado incident was dumb. The 2WD van was stuck in snow down to his frame. Insane friction. I tried my 3" recovery strap with a few tugs, but I was on my own snow patch and couldn't get up a good enough run to build up momentum for a good impulse on the strap. So I took my winch line to a sturdy tree 30 feet or so away. But since I hadn't let out enough line, the line still had two layers on the spool. Winch ratings only give you the max pull when you're on the last layer with the pulley being the skinniest, and that gives you the most mechanical advantage. So my winch was stalling without developing its full 9000 pounds. I should have used the rigging equipment I also had with me to run a pulley at the tree and double the force by returning the line to a clevis mount on the bumper, but I got impatient. And I thought to "help" the winch by going into 4LO and adding torque using the engine. I got him moving, and after about 2-3 feet the winch line had gone slack and I was using too much engine torque and the G80 carrier exploded in my former 8.0" SWB axle. Now I have the 8.6" and know enough to never do that again. The HVAC company whose employee had gotten stuck ended up reimbursing me for the $450 axle and AAA trip interruption insurance paid for my meals and motel while waiting for the Vegas-based heroes who rented a trailer and got me home. I paid for the trailer rental and some of their expenses, but one guy refused his expenses and put me up in a Vegas hotel for a night. Which I sincerely appreciated because it happened in the 15 months when I was out of work and I was burning through savings at a fast clip.
 

HARDTRAILZ

Moderator
Nov 18, 2011
49,665
4-Lo.

Hold your breaking til he spins then start giving yours gas while letting off the brakes. Will b simple to pull him cause he already lost traction.
 

SEMIJim

Member
Apr 13, 2013
116
Years ago my brother was trying to move some deadwood on some property he bought up in God's country by towing it with his brand-spanking-new Dodge Truck. Chain snapped, whipped back over the top of the truck, creased the top of the cab and smashed the moonroof.

He's lucky he wasn't injured.

Ever since then I've been very, very leery of tow lines.

Jim
 

HARDTRAILZ

Moderator
Nov 18, 2011
49,665
Never use chain or anything with a metal hook.
 

Playsinsnow

Original poster
Member
Nov 17, 2012
9,727
So what actually happens when your "G80 carrier explodes"?!? I've seen rear axles dropped and yanked out. Curious as to what happened?!

I DO NOT INTEND TO DO THIS.
Not to say I wouldn't mind to do it once...

When I snowboard, some of what I do is considered "dangerous". Experience and clear thinking are really the only way to not think about how quick shit can get real! Or maybe we are just aware of it more. Thanks y'all for your input on this proposed tug. This is merely just a "what-if" question I have now. I want to learn more, not just tell you I KNOW MORE.
I will run a model or two of the proportion%hypothesis the roadie mentioned and post. I will definitely post a video when/if it goes down. :thumbsup:

p.s. This is not actually going to happen. Not unless Jack shows up and stirs the pot
:rotfl:

So nobody thinks he will outright yank me back to reality? Or you being kind? I think he wins due to the extra hitch height?

Roadie: I understand the hitch height could be a significant factor as mentioned by gmcman. How would this work into the proportions? Would a 100ft "rope" do me more favors as I am lower than a 10ft rope? By reducing the angle of strap? I would assume that the shorter the rope the more disadvantage I have? More length to reduce his advantage?

No takers that the 4runner wins outright? Afraid to "guess her weight/age"? I won't hate. Tell me I will get my butt kicked and I should drop the "immature thought" (as printed in first sentence of first post!)

PPS: I can't believe how often people get into the discussion of which type rope/chain/strap to use. We should create a sticky for what type of devices to use and when with ratings. AND WHAT NOT TO DO WITH WHAT, like tugofwar between two SUVs and a link chain connecting, rated to 6000lbs. I don't feel bad for your Bro semijim AND HIS BRAND NEW TRUCK although that really sucks. He either was too quick to get to work, didn't do his homework, and/or probably used a chain with a rating less than what the truck was rated to. Terrible it happened nonetheless
 

Playsinsnow

Original poster
Member
Nov 17, 2012
9,727
HARDTRAILZ said:
4-Lo.

Hold your breaking til he spins then start giving yours gas while letting off the brakes. Will b simple to pull him cause he already lost traction.

Wonderful! Did not think of this. Do you think he would spin if he was not in 4lo? In the smart 4wd sending power and reducing when needed?

I thought beating him to power down and get the initial gain of momentum would be a factor. No chance he pulls me with my brakes/ebrake locked?
 

The_Roadie

Lifetime VIP Donor
Member
Nov 19, 2011
9,957
Portland, OR
I towed my boss' Wrangler backwards while he stood on the brakes, but that was because he was lighter. Just air down if you want more traction than him.

I still can't believe we're talking tactics. Unless this is a mere Gedankenexperiment.

axle31.jpg
 

gmcman

Member
Dec 12, 2011
4,656
His buddies are gonna say you held your brakes so you basically you can be smart about it and just give enough gas to keep him steady until he breaks traction. Good point on the tire pressure, you can easily go down do about 22-24 lbs and not be noticeable, 15 would be great but someone may want you to air up. If you go too low then the center of the tire may raise up so it's a tough call.

If his receiver is higher and by more than an inch, that's too much in my book...then it's a no go for me. He will lift your rear possibly too much.
 

Playsinsnow

Original poster
Member
Nov 17, 2012
9,727
the roadie said:
I towed my boss' Wrangler backwards while he stood on the brakes, but that was because he was lighter. Just air down if you want more traction than him.

I still can't believe we're talking tactics. Unless this is a mere Gedankenexperiment.

axle31.jpg

Sehr gut herr roadie! Original question was if I could win and that opens the door to separate tactics that may aid a potential victor.

WTH happened to make you carrier look like that? I do not want that happening, lol. You said too much slack on a run up, but what physically happens to shred that up like that? or did you find another "limit" and smash through that as well? That does not look like fun to dig into. :no:
 

gmcman

Member
Dec 12, 2011
4,656
the roadie said:
I still can't believe we're talking tactics. Unless this is a mere Gedankenexperiment.

I agree, and there's a guy on my left shoulder saying..." Hey man, there's no shame in telling him since this is my daily driver and this all comes down to traction and not really all about power, it's not worth it to me to find out how much money may be left on the ground. If you want to hand over a few grand just in case I break something then we can go for it. There's a video of an S10 blazer dragging a Dodge 3500 Dualie so what's there to prove?"

And the trouble maker on my right shoulder is waiting for the video. :cool:

The left shoulder guy is a lot like my wife and she's almost always right. :biggrin:
 

Playsinsnow

Original poster
Member
Nov 17, 2012
9,727
After giving this more thought than it deserves, I realized more and more that I am going to lose and it could be bad:redface:

I remember seeing a jeep Liberty pull a 3500 dually. IT REALLY IS ALL ABOUT TRACTION. (And weight?)

Even considering my 4lo is geared lower, he has a larger tire footprint and traction control that will aid him a whole lot more than my 4lo will help me. He has advantage on traction, tire footprint and higher hitch to lift me a little. I have a feeling I would either smoke my tires or break something. Guess I will just wait for him to get stuck somewhere on his property again and I'll video tape the TB recovering him.

Weights are close, but both he and his truck weigh more than me with mine. I would not sand bag or airdown, nor use any advantage I did not disclose with him beforehand (I find no pride in winning that way). So given all this and a few other considerations previously mentioned above I believe I probably would have lost pretty badly unless he was in 2wd and turned TC off. I am curious if the losing duallies had more weight in their bed, even close to max weight rating, would they have pulled the s10/liberty around the block and back??? Thanks for the responses, opened my eyes to a few things. I was thinking something relatively dumb. At least I did not actually do something so dumb like I've seen many times before :crazy:

I won't go through all the scenarios, but I had him beating me a lot more than me beating him. Maybe I'll line up with him sometime, I feel better about this matchup :rotfl:

p.s. easy there, I don't plan on running out the door to go do a drag race in your neighborhood. chill. I will get a video of that too.
 

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