Rebuilt 4l60e slips from 1st to 2nd

russ31073

Original poster
Member
Sep 2, 2014
35
Hello everybody! Just wanted to say thanks for a great resource for my Envoy! I tried asking this at the "other" site but didn't get a reply. I thought I would pick your brains and see what you all thought about this? I guess I probably should have asked this a LONG time ago. I had the tranny in my 2002 Envoy rebuilt about 3 years ago. It has seemed to slip from 1st to 2nd gear ever since then. I know I should have brought it to the transmission shop to have them troubleshoot it but it was a "special" deal from a friend of mine. The thing is, if i step on the gas and take off with some power, it shifts normally. Does this sound like anything that you all have experienced before?
Thanks for any input!
Russ
 

Mooseman

Moderator
Dec 4, 2011
25,347
Ottawa, ON
Welcome! And you won't find any tumbleweeds here.

How does the fluid look and its level? Do you mean that it has been slipping ever since it was installed? It could be a problem with the valve body, possibly something not done right during the rebuild.

Although I'm not a tranny guru, someone should be along with more info.
 

russ31073

Original poster
Member
Sep 2, 2014
35
Thanks for the welcome! Fluids look good. I was also worried that something might not have been done right! Unfortunately I needed to drive the vehicle as soon as was possible. Maybe a fluid and filter swap might be in order anyway?! Thanks for the input.
 

russ31073

Original poster
Member
Sep 2, 2014
35
Oh and yes it did slip ever since I put it back into the vehicle. It was one of those deals where a buddy of mine told me about his friends transmission shop. I dropped the tranny myself and brought it in to the shop to be rebuilt. Once it was done, I picked it back up and reinstalled it back into the vehicle.
 

jimmyjam

Member
Nov 18, 2011
1,634
i had put the wrong spring in the band servo, 1-2 was super slow because the spring was too stiff. once I put the right one in there it was normal...
 

russ31073

Original poster
Member
Sep 2, 2014
35
Trans work I suppose is kind of new for me. I have rebuilt motors and have done pretty much all mechanical work on the envoy, except alignments, myself. With that being said... Is it easy to switch the spring out? Thanks JimmyJam.
 

gmcman

Member
Dec 12, 2011
4,656
The vette servo is a good thing, but it's more setup for the 2-3 shift as it's the 3rd accumulator. However it does firm the 1-2 a little.

If you have slip or flare on the 1-2, then the spring Jimmyjam mentioned is a good place to start, but also I would want to know all the check balls made it into their rightful resting spot when it was rebuilt.

I'm not sure exactly which ones control what, but I do know they can wreak havoc if installed improperly.

I would try the spring first. If that doesn't change it, I would pull the valve body and check all the check balls and when pulling the valve body, I would replace the separator plate just because it's out.

It's alot to do, but if it did this from the start, something didn't go back in right. Did you document the flare when you first drove it? Maybe he will check it out for you...worth a shot.
 
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russ31073

Original poster
Member
Sep 2, 2014
35
Thanks guys! Will definitely check out the 1-2 spring. and even try the corvette servo. Unfortunately I didn't document the flare :sadcry:
 

Mooseman

Moderator
Dec 4, 2011
25,347
Ottawa, ON
If pulling the valve body and servo, might as well go for the full shift kit. I firmed up my 1-2 shift a lot just with the kit without the servo. I couldn't get the servo cover off due to interference from the aftermarket cat.
 

DocBrown

Member
Dec 8, 2011
501
Ditto what GMCMan said. He knows a lot about this stuff. As time went on my TB's 1-2 shifting got really slow and sloppy unless I puched it. The shift kit and sperator plate cured that issue. If you choose to do the shift kit and seperator plate, buy the Transgo kit (I can't recall who I bought it from, but it was an online place that specialized in transmission parts). The instructions say not to attempt if you are not a professional, but it's really not that hard if you are as pretty comfortable with DIY, which you certainly are. And the instruction sheet is well written with reasonably good illustrations. Take your time as there are lots of parts, small springs, etc. It take 4-5 hours to do. The kit also tells you what to do to keep softer shifts or make them harder (the latter involves drilling specific holes in the seperator plate). Also if you do this, replace your original plastic accumulator pistons with aluminum ones. unless they did that with the rebuild.
 

Sparky

Member
Dec 4, 2011
12,927
misterhyde said:
I had a shift kit and other stuff done at once, and my 1-2 is horribly harsh. I have to be hammering the pedal for it to be anywhere near smooth. It this common with this shift kit and others setup:
4L60E 4L65E 1996-2006 1870 P1870 Code Buster Combo Kit Corvette Servo Kit Book by CT Powertrain
http://www.ebay.com/itm/270874884435?item=270874884435&viewitem=&sspagename=ADME:L:OC:US:3160&vxp=mtr
I have that kit in mine and in my Camaro with the 4L60E, definitely not harsh in either one...
 

Mooseman

Moderator
Dec 4, 2011
25,347
Ottawa, ON
I used that same kit and I find my 1-2 shifts brutal. Feels like I'm getting rear ended when it shifts. I followed the instructions to a T so I don't know why it's so hard. I just learned to live with it. And when I'm going full throttle, it shifts so quick, my belt squeals/chirps. I'm even wondering if that's what caused my timing chain tensioner to fail.
 

Sparky

Member
Dec 4, 2011
12,927
At WOT yes it is a very fast shift and my belt will chirp too, but I'm not surprised at that. Under normal driving it is perfectly fine. Quicker than stock shifts yeah, but no where near harsh or brutal.

Not sure why it is on yours :confused:
 

Mooseman

Moderator
Dec 4, 2011
25,347
Ottawa, ON
The only thing I didn't do was the Corvette servo because the aftermarket cat was in the way. Maybe the one hole they said to drill out according to the model was off. Oh well, not much I can do about it for now.
 

gmcman

Member
Dec 12, 2011
4,656
Mooseman, when you pulled the valve body down, did you get the check ball back in that is suspended above the seperator plate? There is one that will fall out and needs to go back in with a dab of vaseline to hold it in place.

After about 40K miles on my new seperator plate I'm just starting to experience and very slight soft shift from 1-2 when warm and more of a delayed harder shift when cold. I talked to someone today and he mentioned the filter in the seperator plate and the screen in the EPC solenoid...which is what controls the line pressure. Seems I have a very very slight derease in shift firmness but it's even across all gears.

I need to flush the fluid again and when I do I think I'm going to pull the valve body down and check the screens on the EPC solenoid....it's almost like the CPAS with tiny screens on the end. I will also install torlon check balls since these are much easier on the plate.

This is something that could be going on with the OP's trans, could very well be a line pressure issue from the start, who knows what went on with the trans rebuild, could have been a swap from a donor vehicle with different parameters including line pressures required for shifting, or an incorrect seperator plate that has incorrect hole sizing for fluid flow.....each vehicle is different. Just because it's a 4L60E doesn't mean it's setup for the vehicle you are putting it in. Not saying he had a trans swap instead of a rebuild, but the wrong plate could have gone in.


Moose, I wouldn't worry about the vette servo right now, if you add it it will likely shift even harsher, providing you have a shift kit installed. You can increase line pressure from the plate openings on the stock servo, or retain factory pressure on the vette servo, both will yield similar results. However with a kit or increasing the pressure as well as the increased area on the vette servo will really bang the shifts.
 
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Mooseman

Moderator
Dec 4, 2011
25,347
Ottawa, ON
gmcman said:
Mooseman, when you pulled the valve body down, did you get the check ball back in that is suspended above the seperator plate? There is one that will fall out and needs to go back in with a dab of vaseline to hold it in place.
Oh yes, followed the instructions religiously.

gmcman said:
Moose, I wouldn't worry about the vette servo right now, if you add it it will likely shift even harsher, providing you have a shift kit installed. You can increase line pressure from the plate openings on the stock servo, or retain factory pressure on the vette servo, both will yield similar results. However with a kit or increasing the pressure as well as the increased area on the vette servo will really bang the shifts.
I figured that and it's working well so I won't mess any further with it for now. And I just don't have the time to take it apart again. Hell, I can't even finish my timing chain job without mutilating a part on my body.

If you take down the valve body, won't you need another set of gaskets? I know mine tore when I took it off.
 

Gerbil21

Member
May 28, 2014
839
Mooseman -Dose It still shift hard? I just did the shift kit from ctpowertrain and also added the torlon check balls and everything seems good except for the 1-2, it still slips into 2nd but now its a hard shift like getting bumped in the back. The only thing I didn't do was the servo since it hits the wall I was going to drop the crossmember and install the servo. But would it help quicken the shift so it won't slip or will it be super harsh? also I hear a click when I stop could that be the snap ring on the servo?
 

gmcman

Member
Dec 12, 2011
4,656
Mooseman said:
If you take down the valve body, won't you need another set of gaskets? I know mine tore when I took it off.
They might, the separator plate I bought was from the dealer and they are now a one piece design. The gaskets are glued to the plate and filters are already in place. I may pick one up just to be safe.
 

Mooseman

Moderator
Dec 4, 2011
25,347
Ottawa, ON
gmcman said:
They might, the separator plate I bought was from the dealer and they are now a one piece design. The gaskets are glued to the plate and filters are already in place. I may pick one up just to be safe.
Doesn't yours have the shift kit? The separator plate wouldn't be the same.
 

gmcman

Member
Dec 12, 2011
4,656
Mooseman said:
Doesn't yours have the shift kit? The separator plate wouldn't be the same.
No shift kit.

When I tore into mine, I replaced the plate with an OE plate, I installed a vette servo, and I added the PWM eliminator valve. The vette servo worked just right but now I will add the Sonnax Super Hold servo which I wish I had when I added the vette servo. This will firm up both the 1-2 and 2-3 even more and will increase the holding power on the clutches an additional 40% which is huge.
I don't like messing with flow and pressures unless it's needed.

I did drill the plate for the TCC PWM eliminator valve to increase holding power on the lockup clutch
 

Gerbil21

Member
May 28, 2014
839
Just wondering but how many springs are supposed to go in the 1-2 accumulator, the instructions had me put three springs. maybe I should go back to the original setup?

Also there is a tsb ”09-07-30-017B" for an updated accumulator valve that is supposed to fix the harsh 1-2. anyone heard of it?

Found a great link with pics on the tsb
http://www.silveradosierra.com/transmission/1-2-shift-problem-t100321.html
 

Mooseman

Moderator
Dec 4, 2011
25,347
Ottawa, ON
That TSB might not apply to our platform. Nothing mentioned for us. The harsh 1-2 shift we're talking about here is for those of us that installed a shift kit, like me. Mine had a mushy shift before the shift kit.
 

Gerbil21

Member
May 28, 2014
839
Mooseman said:
That TSB might not apply to our platform. Nothing mentioned for us. The harsh 1-2 shift we're talking about here is for those of us that installed a shift kit, like me. Mine had a mushy shift before the shift kit.
Sorry i guess I posted the wrong one, I could of swear there was one for us also I do have the shift kit I installed it this week and everything is good especially since now I have a "fifth gear" [emoji1] but the 1-2 shift is like getting hit in the back it happens at hard and light throttle and even when manually shifting. The only thing I didn't do was the servo. I still have the same slip bump 1-2 as before but a bit less could the servo fix this?

One other thing is did you use 3 springs in the 1-2 accumulator? Maybe I should go back to stock springs?

Has anyone else has this shift problem with the servo? Living in NYC with constant 1-2 shifts makes it bad to drive
 

gmcman

Member
Dec 12, 2011
4,656
Gerbil21 said:
Just wondering but how many springs are supposed to go in the 1-2 accumulator, the instructions had me put three springs. maybe I should go back to the original setup?
Well, I believe from the factory there is one spring and is rather soft. What kit did you get, Sonnax or Transgo? Some springs don't like some of the kits. If you have 3 springs in there....I want to possibly suspect a cracked accumulator piston...could be the cause of your slipping 1-2 shift.

I would pull the accumulator housing and see what's going on in there.
 

Gerbil21

Member
May 28, 2014
839
gmcman said:
Well, I believe from the factory there is one spring and is rather soft. What kit did you get, Sonnax or Transgo? Some springs don't like some of the kits. If you have 3 springs in there....I want to possibly suspect a cracked accumulator piston...could be the cause of your slipping 1-2 shift.

I would pull the accumulator housing and see what's going on in there.
If I remember correctly there were two springs in the OE accumulator. I got the kit from ctpowertrain it was a transgo shift kit I also switched to the sonnax pinless pistons

Also the stock plastic pistons looked good they werent stuck, it didn't wobble on the pin and it wasn't broken
 

Mooseman

Moderator
Dec 4, 2011
25,347
Ottawa, ON
You have exactly the same as me. Did the same without the Vette servo. My pistons were also all in good shape. It's possible that Transgo's instructions for drilling one of the holes is too vague. Maybe leaving everything as-is should would been better. Do you remember drilling anything?
 

Gerbil21

Member
May 28, 2014
839
Yea I followed the offroadtb thread I drilled the .630 hole to about .625 and the .7 something hole slightly bigger since those were the only size bits I had

All the rest I drilled to .093

I read that the servo notches and mods are supposed to stop the slide bump maybe the whole slip into gear makes shift harder
 

gmcman

Member
Dec 12, 2011
4,656
Did your problems start after you drilled the wrong size?

We should move this conversation back over to your thread though.
 

Gerbil21

Member
May 28, 2014
839
gmcman said:
Did your problems start after you drilled the wrong size?

We should move this conversation back over to your thread though.
OK also the harsh 1-2 is the only effect
 

russ31073

Original poster
Member
Sep 2, 2014
35
Just wanted to stop back by and say thanks for all the info. I haven't worked on the tranny yet as I'm trying to decide whether to keep the vehicle or not yet. If I get working on it again, I will post my results.
 

Escapepilot

Member
Sep 21, 2014
35
Gerbil21 said:
If I remember correctly there were two springs in the OE accumulator. I got the kit from ctpowertrain it was a transgo shift kit I also switched to the sonnax pinless pistons

Also the stock plastic pistons looked good they werent stuck, it didn't wobble on the pin and it wasn't broken
I also am using the Transgo kit and the Sonnax pinless pistons. Haven't completed it yet to test, but did speak to Glenn at Transgo and he didn't like using the pinless pistons w/ the Transgo kit. Said the Transgo kit wasn't calibrated for the different pressures of using the pinless pistons. He recommended aluminum pistons w/ the pin.
 

Gerbil21

Member
May 28, 2014
839
Escapepilot said:
I also am using the Transgo kit and the Sonnax pinless pistons. Haven't completed it yet to test, but did speak to Glenn at Transgo and he didn't like using the pinless pistons w/ the Transgo kit. Said the Transgo kit wasn't calibrated for the different pressures of using the pinless pistons. He recommended aluminum pistons w/ the pin.
Well I am using the kit from ctpowertrain and I used the aluminum pinless pistons with the transgo kit and so far so good the only thing is my bump slide shift but as I said its only sometimes and barely harsh and I also think I made the notches to small. also i drilled the holes they said in the instructions on the separator plate
 

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