Power choking

PProph

Original poster
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Dec 7, 2011
220
true, but the dash is still apart so i might as well put the cluster back in as I may have to order more steppers anyways. I'd rather have the interior together when I bring it back. I did some interwebbing last night and now understand what the fuel trims are all about so I'll hook up and monitor when I bring my ride back to town. Hopefully tomorrow.
 

PProph

Original poster
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Dec 7, 2011
220
Update, we hooked the exhaust back up, however there is a hissing sound so I don't think it's on all the way or correctly. Brought it back to town with torque hooked up, I loved some data that I'll try and load up. My short trims bouncea little high in the negatives. My 2nd O2 sensor is bouncing around and shouldn't be. My temp was pushing 222 under load (just trying to keep 70-80kph on the backroads), I'm not sure what unsafe operating levels are but I cranked the heat to keep me around 215 or lower. The high operating temp could have been going on for awhile, my stepper on that gauge is toast.

I am going to get a cat and change that, hopefully if it becomes drivable I will monitor and hunt down other problems. I'm learning torque so hopefully I become that much smarter.
 

PProph

Original poster
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Dec 7, 2011
220
Need advice on the cat, anyone ever put a replacement in? I'm wondering if there's a difference between brands (ie some better than others), most of the information I've found online is inconclusive. I think I'm deciding between the following:

http://www.magnaflow.com/02catalytic_converters/02product/displaydirectfit01.asp?catalogid=10743&directfit=49191
http://catalog.walkerexhaust.com/catalogPart/walkerPartSearchFromECatalog.do?partKey=990442&partNumber=55476&catalogKey=653&methodName=initialiseWalker&catalogCode=walkerexhaust49state&locale=EN&loadStatus=ACTIVE
http://www.tdotperformance.ca/flowmaster-2010024-direct-fit-catalytic-converter-stainless-steel.html

The main thing I would like to know from the member base is if anyone has expereince with these brands or preferences based on any information. The Walker is either the cheapest (online) or the most expensive (local). Magnaflow makes a cheaper one but it's not their "OE" model and even though it's direct fit I have concerns about its fitability based on the image. Only the Walker is available locally. It's about $150 more local than it is on rockauto (and that's getting a "deal") unless I get dinged duty, however I may have to consider getting it done sooner than later since I might lose my access to cheap professional help for awhile soon. I also think that if I get locally and I run into any issues it's a lot easier dealing with any sort of return or warranty or anything. Ordering online (especially from another country) complicates that process.

Sidenote, I called one muffler place and the guy gave me a part number and told me to call this other store. Didn't give me the brand or anything, I asked and he gave me that too. I looked it up and the idiot would have had me pick up the one for the EXT. I wanted to call him back and tell him he was an idiot. I hate auto repair places.

So anyways I'd really appreciate some feedback. Thanks!
 

PProph

Original poster
Member
Dec 7, 2011
220
I decided to go with the Walker from a local shop just in case I ever have to deal with warranty. Gonna cost me more but c'est la vie. We're changing it today, I will report results.

Assuming that I get my power/drivability back, I know that the CAT doesn't just go. I will change my t-stat and sensor to start, as well as fuel filter. Question is, what am I looking for in terms of diagnosing that I'm not going to toast another CAT? I've got torque now and an increasing knowledge on how it works, what should I be monitoring/looking for as far as potential problems go? What is a safe operating temperature for our ride (range low to high).

I want to very closely monitor this thing and try to figure out what needs fixing on it. Any advice will be greatly appreciated as usual!
 

PProph

Original poster
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Dec 7, 2011
220
Update, changed this morning, I have my power back. Details and further analysis to follow. Suspecting a possible manifold crack :no:
 
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PProph

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Dec 7, 2011
220
me too, worst thing is when a thread just ends and you never know what happened.

So if you ever have to change your CAT, here are a few things you should know. This is most easily done if you have a lift or hoist of some sort. We did it on jack stands. The biggest problem with that is getting the whole piece in there (if you go direct fit like i did). detatching and attaching are the easy part. The manual (thanks a millionth time mooseman) tells you to remove the transmission support bracket, and tbh i think it would have saved us some time. We detached it and then unhooked/lowered the front of the muffler and removed the small cross piece there. But there still wasn't enough room to jimmy things around. Ultimately we removed the bracket that the pipe goes into which involved loosening part of the transmission bracket anyways. So unless you have your vehicle way up in the air, just remove the transmission mount/support bracket as per the manual, imo.

fyi, cut open the old pipe where the CAT was, it was indeed mostly plugged at the front, so the initial/main power loss diagnosis was correct, bad CAT.

I reused the downstream o2 sensor because it came out easy. Ultimately that pesky upstream we broke off and removed with a 6 point socket (still with grief). Chased the threads carefully before the new one went in as it didn't come out great, but now it's all swapped out.

Now, we got everything back together and I fired it up. My mechanic said it sounded like there was still air escaping somewhere, so he brought out a tube to listen through to pinpoint. It wasn't coming from anything we changed as far as he could tell, but he thinks he narrowed it down to up in the manifold under the heat shield. He told me to drive it for a couple of days (first to make sure my power is back), then suggested I take the heat shield off and look at the manifold. He believes I could have a crack in it somewhere. Told me that if the sound goes away when it heats up that's likely what it is as a crack will be more open when cooled but expand together when it's hot. He said what is possible is that it will push exhaust through the crack but also allow oxygen in, tricking the o2 sensor and causing it to dump more fuel. This makes sense as one possibility to me. Hopefully this weekend I can get the heat shield off to inspect.

My coolant temp has been way more stable since the change. Once I'm up to temp I hover between 198-206.6, usually around 202. This is a combination of in city and highway speeds, seems like I'm cooling properly. Regardless I might still change the thermostat. I also think I might change the plugs again. I did in the winter but I didn't use the delco's, and after reading and reading and reading on here I see I've comitted a serious no-no. I will also clean the throttle body again.

I've been monitoring some things. My short term fuel trims are scary out to lunch, all over the place, and even the long term trims are constantly -%, even pushing over -8 or -9% sometimes. Somehow I did not set up my O2 logging properly, but watching it live my downstream o2 sensor voltage settled out to around .7 (700 mV i believe?) and the upstream is jumping around as expected. That seems high for the downstream though, no? Should be closer to 400 (.4)?

Googling fuel trims it seems as though my excessive correction to the negative could indicate a leak in the manifold (among countless other things). as per http://www.easterncatalytic.com/education/tech-tips/fuel-trim-can-be-a-valuable-diagnostic-tool/ :

Running too rich – High negative fuel trim corrections can be caused by MAF sensor problems, high fuel pressure, leaking fuel pressure regulator diaphragm, faulty evaporative emissions components, leaking injectors, defective O2 sensors, exhaust leaks/pinholes before the O2 sensor, coolant temp sensor problems, and base engine issues such as low compression and incorrect camshaft timing.
The upstream o2 sensor is new, so I'll rule that out for now. I have no MAF as previously established. So as far as things I can easily check/fix I will change the fuel filter and t-stat and inspect my manifold. Still seem to be on the right track?

btw I can post some data logs in csv if anyone's interested in seeing what I'm seeing.

Should I start a new thread I wonder since I have no more power choking?
 

MAY03LT

Member
Nov 18, 2011
3,420
Delmarva
Most of the time I think would be better to keep everything in one thread so all the info is in one place. But you're pretty good with the details as to what you've done and the data that you've collected so if you want to make a new one, go for it.

Your engine temp matches mine, last times I checked it 201 was the magic number. Personally I don't sweat single digit LTFT's, but if I cooked a cat I guess I would keep an eye on the data for a few drive cycles to make sure everything is ok.
 

PProph

Original poster
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Dec 7, 2011
220
Alright I'll keep it here, yeah the biggest thing I'm worried about is the fact that I did cook the first CAT. Granted I've got 219,000k on this beast but I'd hate to cook the new CAT. I'll keep monitoring these things and change/check the few things i mentioned. Normally I'd be happy with just having the power back but I've learned that some rides you want to fix right. I like the tb so I want to keep it running the right way.
 

The_Roadie

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Nov 19, 2011
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Portland, OR
The spark plugs are very, very critical to be AC Delco, but not so much the O2 sensor. All O2 sensors sense O2 properly, but there is also a heater circuit in there to help the sensor come up to temp faster when it's screwed into the large cold mass of the cast iron exhaust manifold. Some vendors, especially Bosch, have a heater resistance that's right at the hairy edge of the GM spec baked into the PCM programming, and sometimes the heater resistance diagnostic fails and it throws a code. Functionally the sensor is OK, but the PCM thinks the heater is flaky. Delco sensors have a heater resistance that's farther away from the spec, and they almost never fail the diagnostic. So that's the gory detail behind KNB's question.

If you read this before in other posts, you'll have put in a Delco anyway.
 
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KNBlazer

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Feb 8, 2012
811
The_Roadie said:
The spark plugs are very, very critical to be AC Delco, but not so much the O2 sensor. All O2 sensors sense O2 properly, but there is also a heater circuit in there to help the sensor come up to temp faster when it's screwed into the large cold mass of the cast iron exhaust manifold. Some vendors, especially Bosch, have a heater resistance that's right at the hairy edge of the GM spec baked into the PCM programming, and sometimes the heater resistance diagnostic fails and it throws a code. Functionally the sensor is OK, but the PCM thinks the heater is flaky. Delco sensors have a heater resistance that's farther away from the spec, and they almost never fail the diagnostic. So that's the gory detail behind KNB's question.

If you read this before in other posts, you'll have put in a Delco anyway.
All I knew or thought was that aftermarket sensor's tables weren't compatible or within those of GM's specs...
 

PProph

Original poster
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Dec 7, 2011
220
I love the extensive knowledge base on this forum. As it happens I used NGK for the O2 sensor. If after those other things I still have issues I'll replace with a Delco. If I do have to change the manifold well then I might get a Delco and put it in the new one.

Regardless this is on hold for at least probably a week or so. I will be driving it to work and back and continue to monitor and get some logs in that time, but I won't have time to do any work on it until at least Thursday or Friday, maybe not until after next weekend.

I might as well order the t-stat and sensor though.
 

PProph

Original poster
Member
Dec 7, 2011
220
Got the manifold heat shield off to inspect the manifold today (bust one of the nuts/posts off for the heat shield grrrr). I'd say this is pretty definitive:

20140802_144047_zpse4f415b0.jpg


20140802_144056_zpsa3dfb01a.jpg


I believe I'm seeing this as a crack. Please put your educated eyes on to confirm my diagnosis.
 

PProph

Original poster
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Dec 7, 2011
220
Is the replacement part better? Is there anything I can do to prevent this from happening again once replaced?
 

KNBlazer

Member
Feb 8, 2012
811
here's mine, was discovered by shop while tearing down engine for an overhaul...already bought mine from , GM manifold for $147 shipped...uploadfromtaptalk1407018293493.jpg
 

KNBlazer

Member
Feb 8, 2012
811
The_Roadie said:
I broke mine by driving through 18" of river crossing water and splashing it up on the hot manifold from not having a wheel well liner. Not likely to be the cause of most cracks.
I've driven through 7-10 inches of rain storm standing water.... but that exact area is suspect of crappy a** design...
 

PProph

Original poster
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Dec 7, 2011
220
hmm that's all well and good, however i'm not having any luck finding a price like yours on the gm part. do i pay twice the coin for the gm part? maybe i'll research the dorman and see if anyone's had any experience with it. i know that some things they do well with and some things not so much, but if the gm part is prone to failure well then what's the point paying extra for it?
 
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KNBlazer

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Feb 8, 2012
811
PProph said:
hmm that's all well and good, however i'm not having any luck finding a price like yours on the gm part. do i pay twice the coin for the gm part? maybe i'll research the dorman and see if anyone's had any experience with it. i know that some things they do well with and some things not so much, but if the gm part is prone to failure well then what's the point paying extra for it?
The length of time it will hold up... mine held up 10 years... I saw it for $160 shipped on ebay...
 

PProph

Original poster
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Dec 7, 2011
220
May bite, it hurts though the Dorman comes with the gaskets, studs etc whereas this is just the manifold. If I buy the gm I'd also have to fork out for the gasket for sure, I don't know if I could reuse the studs for the pipe or not. I definitely need to get at least one new stud for the heat shield, and a new nut for that matter. $$ adding up though is all. Plus ship it all to Canada for extra dinero.
 

PProph

Original poster
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Dec 7, 2011
220
I've also come across this statement a couple of times:

"Supposedly the Dorman manifold is stronger and less likely to crack."

But then I also found a couple amazon reviews of the Dorman that they cracked soon. Not sure here.
 
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KNBlazer

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Feb 8, 2012
811
The_Roadie said:
I broke mine by driving through 18" of river crossing water and splashing it up on the hot manifold from not having a wheel well liner. Not likely to be the cause of most cracks.
Did you replace yours with a GM or aftermarket?
 

PProph

Original poster
Member
Dec 7, 2011
220
I'm leaning toward the Dorman, $160 shipped for me and includes the gasket vs. the $220 for the gm without the gasket. I might get the Dorman bolts but I understand I would need to apply some stuff to em before putting them in. But still, $7 for 12 bolts is better than $3.50 I'd pay locally per piece.

It's so frustrating buying auto parts in Canada. For the manifold everything I've priced out is $200 more expensive locally as opposed to shipping from the States, including the shipping costs. We have to pay through the nose if we want the convenience of fixing it today and being able to take it back quick if warranty or returning of any sort is needed. It's a nightmare. I'm still stinging at the cost of the CAT, I think I'm just going to order the Dorman from rockauto. My cheapest local option is a used from sgi auto salvage (the crown insurance company in my province), but I have no idea what kind of shape it could be in. The new Dorman is still cheaper and they have warranty.

I'm leaning towards that, even the gm only has 1 year warranty over the counter. That's not exactly leaping behind your product, almost as if it's known to fail or something...

Not looking forward to this job, especially removing those bolts.

Anyone with any other input on this part let me know, I've searched it best I can here and on the OS, as well as amazon reviews, google, etc. I gotta get this thing fixed up though. I've been feeling awfully stuck lately.
 

PProph

Original poster
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Dec 7, 2011
220
okay, i finally made a decision and went with the Dorman. I expect a week for it to arrive, I plan to soak my bolts in pb blaster every night until I do this swap. When I put the new bolts in should I be using a thread locker and if so is one of these two a viable option:

http://www.permatex.com/products-2/product-categories/thread-compounds/threadlockers/permatex-high-strength-threadlocker-red-27140-detail
http://www.permatex.com/products-2/product-categories/thread-compounds/threadlockers/permatex--medium-strength-threadlocker-blue-24240-detail

My reasoning on the Dorman is that I've seen statements that both it and the gm replacement have failed on people. I'd rather replace the cheaper part. I'm going with delco on my plugs, t-stat and temp sensor (realized that i'm a genius and forgot to add an o2 sensor so had to call and adjust the order), the o2 sensor i will replace again with delco also. I definitely see the reasoning going with delco for the electronics and things that people have seen problems with aftermarket on consistently. however i don't think that gm has really addressed the design flaw on these manifolds so see no reason to trust it as a superior product.

Now we play the waiting game.
 
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PProph

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Dec 7, 2011
220
Parts arrived today. I went at the bolts with pb blaster, won't get to this until the weekend.

Noticed that my CPAS clip has oil in it, guess I need a new one of those too. Surprisingly comparable at the local dealer for a change (at least after factoring in shipping).

I'm using some info from the OS on roadie's long ago cracked manifold thread, gonna do my best to attempt this myself. Nervous as hell about busting those bolts.
 

IllogicTC

Member
Dec 30, 2013
3,452
PProph said:
Parts arrived today. I went at the bolts with pb blaster, won't get to this until the weekend.

Noticed that my CPAS clip has oil in it, guess I need a new one of those too. Surprisingly comparable at the local dealer for a change (at least after factoring in shipping).

I'm using some info from the OS on roadie's long ago cracked manifold thread, gonna do my best to attempt this myself. Nervous as hell about busting those bolts.
Someone reported using a solution of 50/50 ATF and acetone, and getting every bolt out with ZERO breakage.
 
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PProph

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Dec 7, 2011
220
i saw that, how would one apply that? what would i mix such a thing in/apply with? i would presume it to be somewhat corrosive perhaps?
 

Mark20

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Dec 6, 2011
1,630
A little squirt can. Almost picked one up at Lowe's. Maybe next time I'm there.
 
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PProph

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Dec 7, 2011
220
Spent some time on it this morning, I've decided I'm out of my depth here, I'm using the 1/4" ratchet, used the 50/50 atf/acetone, tried after the engine got close to running temp and then after cool down. gave some knocks with the ball pein hammer, I'm getting zero movement at all on even the most accessible bolts. The last time I talked to my car guy about it he said I'd likely have trouble and to give him a call, which I will do. He did make me nervous though talking about using an impact, suggesting that the hammer action will be better for not twisting the heads off, but I just think that it would be too much torque regardless. Mind you I can't even get these bolts to budge with a socket so I don't really know where to go from here anyways.

I'm going to call him now, if anyone has any suggestions in the meantime please let me know. Though I've been through threads and threads on this so I'm pretty sure I've tried everything within my capabilities at this point.
 

PProph

Original poster
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Dec 7, 2011
220
Update, my mechanic has suggested the heat route, the one thing he doesn't have at home is a good torch. I have another friend who has that type of equipment and know-how, going to try and get a hold of him. If anyone has used the torch to get these out, how do you get the heat onto the rearmost bolt (by the firewall) without damaging anything else? And am I going to have to remove some other things to get at the front most bolt as well?
 

PProph

Original poster
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Dec 7, 2011
220
not having much luck with a torch today, found a guy who has a propane/oxy set up but can't help me out. he's offered to lend it to me but i've never used an oxy/propane or oxy/acet torch before, and i'd rather not learn on borrowed equipment. the guy who i'm most sure would be able to help me is out of the country at the moment. i would just wait, but after tuesday if i run into issues i lose access to my regular mechanic for what could be months to a year.

quick question, could i try a regular propane torch (benzomatic or what have you)? or would there be much point? from what i understand it doesn't have enough localized heat to get the job done.
 

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