Positive Camber, 3" lift, how big of an issue?

[essaycho348]

newbie here, please go easy on me, ive done quite a few hours of searching on trailvoy and in realizing all the veterans have been banned ill just move over here, so i have come to the conclusion of needing to ask a few questions.

so purchased and installed the MarkMc 3" two months ago, cv axles and UCA flip about a month ago, then took it to get aligned. the alignment shop is very good, and a good friend of mine who owns a repair shop told me to take it to them.

After doing the UCA flip he said i have too much positive camber, and my lower control arms are pulled out all the way, he also said the passenger side is worse than the latter. the truck is also very darty in snow or wet road while hitting potholes, or while pulling a trailer. after doing much research on here trailvoy and offroadtb it seems that many people are having a positive camber problem with lift and lowered TB's and there doesn't seem to be a clear good solution on this problem.

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j38/dust75L/IMG_0821.jpg



So im wondering what would be better...

1. to custom fab up a lower control arm mount that sticks out farther so that its still adjustable but it fixes the camber problem.

2. to custom fab upper control arms to be shorter and fix the ball joint problem. what if the upper control arms were adjustable? to help with alignment issues and so they could work with both lifting and lowering a trailblazer.

3. screw it, its not that big of a safety or wear issue to need to custom fab anything up, run it til it dies...



with option number 2 could this bring the knuckle too close to the spring? thus needing to go with option 1?

the shop that i work at we custom build snow plows and anything else you can think of, we could fab either option 1 or 2 up i just want to know from the more experianced of us that have had the lift on for longer than i have.

 

[jrSS]

How much positive camber are u talkin?? Mines lowered and have stock uca's and only off about 1.25 degree on both sides. Mine is negative camber as with most lowered vehicles. I might in the future get the upgraded uca's from djm or tony to completely fix alignment issue.

 

[lint]

''essaycho348 '' I was gong to tell you to come over here. but trailvoy would kick me off if I did,,, lol.

 

[essaycho348]

silvernclean:

i don't know how out of spec it is, it seems bad. but that could be me. the first time i got it aligned before i flipped the uca's he said it was all in spec the the Lca's were right at their limit. then when i flipped the ucas and took it in to get it aligned he said he couldn't get the LCA's out anymore, i left before i even though to ask for a spec sheet


lint:

yes not long after posting i went to message a few veterans on TV and found they were all "missing" did some research and found many have moved over here...

 

[jrSS]

Well for what's it worth id personally flip em back if the camber issue bothers u......but I am sure some of the lifted folk will chime in.

 

[jham]

Does the alignment shop do alot of lifted trucks? I had to take mine to 3 different shops to get mine right. The all over the road feeling sound more like a toe issue to me?

 

[essaycho348]

he said hes never dealt with a lifted trailblazer before, but he has had experiance with lifted trucks. just not this platform

 

[HARDTRAILZ]

I have flipped control arms and marks 3 inch lift but no alignment issues. I have heard of no other problems when using a competent alignment shop.

 

[djthumper]

I would put the UCA back and see what happens with it. It can't be any worse than it is now.

 

[ScarabEpic22]

Thats almost identical to my 02 with Mark's 3" new style lift and flipped UCAs. When it gets back to Seattle in late April/May Ill flip the UCAs back to factory and re-align it (yay Firestone lifetime alignment) to see if that fixes it.

 

[navigator]

I think it is the shop, I have the RC lift + Mark's top spacer and I have -.3 on both sides with my UCA flipped.
My Caster is still out of spec but that really doesn't have an affect.
I know you like your buddy but I think I would take it somewhere else.

 

[The_Roadie]

In BOTH cases of lifted and lowered trucks, since the UCA is shorter than the LCA, we are plagued with negative camber. Hardly ever hear of a positive camber issue.

View attachment 19412

Adjustable UCAs have been discussed. Nobody fabbed any up that I know of. I was going to mill some larger slots in my next set of LCA brackets, as soon as I need new bushings, probably in the next 6 months. But I want by LCAs to go inboard more, and you need to them to stick out. I can't explain why yours is the other way from normal. Has it ever been in a collision?

 

[ScarabEpic22]

My 02 definitely has positive camber, my only reasoning is that the UCA flip pushed it out too far. I cant do any testing for another 2 months or so, but Ill keep my eyes on this thread to see what the outcome is.

 

[essaycho348]

First i want to say thank you for chiming in, things are starting to get a little more ironed out.


Tonight after work i put it up on our lift to check a few things, first of all the LCA bolt were not to 185 ft lbs, i don't know what they were but they were not in spec.

So just for the heck of it i loosed them up and put a prybar behind them to see if i could get them to go out further, the drivers side was maxed, it went about 1/32" of an inch. the passenger side wasn't, that went out 1/4" or so. Which is ironic because that was the side the guy said that had to much camber and was maxed.

Jham,
Your comment of the toe issue got me thinking, and with seeing that i got the control arms to move some i figured id give it a shot at the angle iron and spray paint cans method to align it, as it worked very well.



got the steering wheel centered and after 30-40 minutes of making adjustments, moving the truck, making more adjustments, driving the truck and repeat again and again and i got it pretty good. This got rid of the darty all over the highway problem it was having, i also got it perfect where as it barely has a toe out (1/32nd more in the foward measurement than the rear of the front tires) im hoping this will help me with towing trailers, anytime i put a load in the back or a trailer on it, it ends up getting really darty and i can tell just by looking at it that it ends up having way to much toe out, anyone else have this problem?

Roadie,
from what ive seem around random posts, tv's seem to have positive camber problems when geting lifted and neg. problems when getting lowered, or haven't i done my research? so if i was to work on building a uca's for a lift ur saying most tv's would need a uca that adjusted to come out further than stock? but strangely mine would need to be adjusted to come in more than stock.

And no, the vehicle has never been in an accident.





there still is a little bit of a positive camber problem as you might be able to tell in the pictures, so i either need to flip them back or fab some ucas or leave it, i just rotated tires tonight so we'll see how they wear, as there isn't too much tread on them left but they are worn well from being on the back for a while.

 

[The_Roadie]

Roadie,
from what ive seem around random posts, tv's seem to have positive camber problems when geting lifted and neg. problems when getting lowered, or haven't i done my research? so if i was to work on building a uca's for a lift ur saying most tv's would need a uca that adjusted to come out further than stock? but strangely mine would need to be adjusted to come in more than stock.

Just look at the suspension design and you will see a shorter UCA than the LCA. Assuming that the OEM design with no lift or lowering places the control arms horizontal, then moving them up or down will result in negative camber.

View attachment 19431

More theory here: suspension geometry, types, setups (long read, but good!)

After getting deeper into the theory, there are good and valid reasons to have unequal length control arms, so the preferable way to fix the camber issues might be to machine the slots on the LCA mounting bracket allow more adjustment range. I read a lot, but I'd prefer to find a suspension expert to consult with on this one. The offroaders who might want adjustable or longer UCAs are also looking enviously at aftermarket products that also replace the upper ball joint with a Teflon lined uniball design. Drool.

 

[navigator]

you said you have 1/32 toe out.
You need toe in.
I think 1/16 - 1/25 is the usual range.
Mine is at .18

Another thing for the darty feel, check your air pressure, if my air gets low, especially in the rear it seems to get a little more frisky.

 

[essaycho348]

so i put a new pair of lcas on two months ago and still had the old lcas, i reemed out the slots on the mill last night pretty well so we'll see how that works, ill order new bushings for that so it will be a matter of a week or two to see if that fixes the issue.

i looked at the suspension last night and found that the uca is perfectly level, and the lca is pitched maybe 10 deg downwards. so any suspension travel upwards or downwards results in the the camber coming back in. when i put it on the lift last night and lifted it up the camber came way in and then i had negative camber. (lower part of the tire sticks out) so im guessing if the suspension compressed any then it would do the same? when the ucas were flipped they were pitched downwards. which is probably why i didn't have camber issues until i flipped the uca's

being that some trailblazers have different springs could mine a just a few others just happen to sit at just the right level to throw the camber off to cause us to rack our brains and others on the forum to think were crazy?

have any other lifted v8 ext's had this problem or am i the only one?