flyboy2610
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SOLVED! Looking for an alignment expert
- Thread starter Shdwdrgn
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Shdwdrgn
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Ah thanks for that. For some reason I had it in mind that the nuts were similar to setting a timkin bearing, but that didn't make sense after seeing how everything rotates together in there.
Shdwdrgn
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Apparently I need to pay more attention to my work. After replacing the front brakes last week and driving around all weekend, coming home from work on Monday I heard a thud followed by squealing. I couldn't see anything obviously wrong so I went ahead and drove home, where I discovered one of the main bolts that holds the entire brake assembly in place had fallen out. Found a suitable replacement at Ace, but the second bolt was also loose. In all my years of working on cars I have never had that happen -- my best guess is I simply forgot to crank down those two bolts as I put everything back together again. <bangs head on driveway>
Had some time this afternoon and got the rear shocks replaced. Good news there, they were NOT two different brands, just that one was turned around 180 degrees so the labeling looked different. Got the new Bilsteins mounted up with no trouble (and yes, I snugged the bolts with the breaker-bar
), feels quite a lot more solid now.
The front Bilsteins have arrived but I'm still waiting on the new caps that go at the top. If they show up in time, I'll rebuild the struts next Tuesday. Then I just have to decide when I have enough ambition to replace that lower control arm.
I also received a new set of the rings that go inside the door panels around the handles. Finally figured out why the original broke on one side -- when I replaced the door panel years ago after replacing the side mirrors, I didn't get the top of the panel seated back into the channel, so the whole thing was loose. New rings are working great (so far). I also found a replacement latch for the center console on ebay and got that swapped. The lid hasn't stayed locked in many years, it's nice to see the new part was cheap and easy to replace,
Sheesh at this rate I should have a new truck soon!
Had some time this afternoon and got the rear shocks replaced. Good news there, they were NOT two different brands, just that one was turned around 180 degrees so the labeling looked different. Got the new Bilsteins mounted up with no trouble (and yes, I snugged the bolts with the breaker-bar
), feels quite a lot more solid now.The front Bilsteins have arrived but I'm still waiting on the new caps that go at the top. If they show up in time, I'll rebuild the struts next Tuesday. Then I just have to decide when I have enough ambition to replace that lower control arm.
I also received a new set of the rings that go inside the door panels around the handles. Finally figured out why the original broke on one side -- when I replaced the door panel years ago after replacing the side mirrors, I didn't get the top of the panel seated back into the channel, so the whole thing was loose. New rings are working great (so far). I also found a replacement latch for the center console on ebay and got that swapped. The lid hasn't stayed locked in many years, it's nice to see the new part was cheap and easy to replace,
Sheesh at this rate I should have a new truck soon!
That happened to me once on my 08 Montana van. Had no idea what happened when I heard the bolt drop and brakes went soft but I was just a couple of blocks from the dealer and they found one missing bolt and the other loose. They charged something like $30 for that bolt and a couple of hours labour to replace it and retorque all the others. I can't say if I did or didn't tighten them on the last brake job. I now use either Blue or Orange Loctite when I put them on and deliberately torque them.
Shdwdrgn
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Well I'm ready to collapse. It hit 101° today and I've been working on the front struts. Planned to do that Tuesday when it was cooler, but my dentist had to change an appointment. So I started on the passenger side and everything went pretty smoothly, took a couple hours as I worked out exactly how to take everything apart and compress the springs without killing myself. And I succeeded!
Then I got to the driver side and it all went wrong. The bottom knuckle was jammed solidly onto the bolt, took about 2 hour to finally get it knocked loose. Got it all apart, compressed the springs, and the top pieces would not come loose from the shock -- seemed to be firmly rusted together. I finally had to cut down and drill out the shaft to get it all apart. Fortunately I was replacing everything but the coil spring and bottom knuckle, so nothing lost, but that took another 4 hours to complete.
Took it for a quick drive, a nearby street has a lot of dips to bounce the truck through. Again with the driver side... there's a sound of something shifting I think? However all the bolts were tightened down so maybe it's just the coil spring settling into place, I hope?
So back to that lower control arm... I've been staring at it for four hours now, and I don;t think there's actually anything wrong with it. Rather, I have two different brands of control arms on each side. I actually have a pile of bad control arms on the side of the house, so I was able to spot a couple that look the same as this one. It's just a difference in the ring that holds the rubber, on this style the front side has a larger ring than the rear but the bolt is most definitely centered. This makes me feel like it would be a waste of time to replace it now, so I think I'll hold off.
OK, time to scrape up some dinner and a lot more liquids!
Then I got to the driver side and it all went wrong. The bottom knuckle was jammed solidly onto the bolt, took about 2 hour to finally get it knocked loose. Got it all apart, compressed the springs, and the top pieces would not come loose from the shock -- seemed to be firmly rusted together. I finally had to cut down and drill out the shaft to get it all apart. Fortunately I was replacing everything but the coil spring and bottom knuckle, so nothing lost, but that took another 4 hours to complete.
Took it for a quick drive, a nearby street has a lot of dips to bounce the truck through. Again with the driver side... there's a sound of something shifting I think? However all the bolts were tightened down so maybe it's just the coil spring settling into place, I hope?
So back to that lower control arm... I've been staring at it for four hours now, and I don;t think there's actually anything wrong with it. Rather, I have two different brands of control arms on each side. I actually have a pile of bad control arms on the side of the house, so I was able to spot a couple that look the same as this one. It's just a difference in the ring that holds the rubber, on this style the front side has a larger ring than the rear but the bolt is most definitely centered. This makes me feel like it would be a waste of time to replace it now, so I think I'll hold off.
OK, time to scrape up some dinner and a lot more liquids!
As I mentioned when you were at my house, I agree, I dont think theres anything, it just doesnt look right.
And with the 4 corners of shocks/struts being replaced is the "wandering" feeling still there? I am betting it is, but I was hopeful it was wheel hop, from old shocks/struts.
And with the 4 corners of shocks/struts being replaced is the "wandering" feeling still there? I am betting it is, but I was hopeful it was wheel hop, from old shocks/struts.
Shdwdrgn
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No idea yet on the wandering, Monday will likely be the next time I'll be heading out of town although I'll have a short drive in town today.
Also, even though it seemed like there was some life left to those front struts, I definitely felt a difference during the short test drive last night. It might have even leveled out the front end again although it's hard to tell for certain while sitting in my sloped driveway.
Also, even though it seemed like there was some life left to those front struts, I definitely felt a difference during the short test drive last night. It might have even leveled out the front end again although it's hard to tell for certain while sitting in my sloped driveway.
Shdwdrgn
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So I've driven to Boulder a couple times now, and plan to head up to Estes Park in the next couple days. And so far it looks like the culmination of replacing the shocks/struts/brakes does in fact seem like there is a lot less wandering. Is that really possible???
Another thing I'm noticing... Since the accident a normal alignment has caused the truck to want to drift to the left, so they have compensated (which of course contributes to the significant tire wear). Now I'm noticing the truck is wanted to drift towards the right. It makes me think when I do the next alignment, that I should try it out for a few days with a "proper" alignment and just see how it's reacting overall now.
Overall, there really seems to be a lot less jumping around from the road conditions. One particular stretch of road on my drive home from Boulder was always bad about that, where the rolls and ruts in the road tended to make the truck want to jump to the left and I really had to pay attention and continuously adjust (although that was true for most roads). Time will tell, but *maybe* it's better now? Sure would be nice...
Another thing I'm noticing... Since the accident a normal alignment has caused the truck to want to drift to the left, so they have compensated (which of course contributes to the significant tire wear). Now I'm noticing the truck is wanted to drift towards the right. It makes me think when I do the next alignment, that I should try it out for a few days with a "proper" alignment and just see how it's reacting overall now.
Overall, there really seems to be a lot less jumping around from the road conditions. One particular stretch of road on my drive home from Boulder was always bad about that, where the rolls and ruts in the road tended to make the truck want to jump to the left and I really had to pay attention and continuously adjust (although that was true for most roads). Time will tell, but *maybe* it's better now? Sure would be nice...
Shdwdrgn
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One can always hope... Of course I can't rule out the ever-present "wishful thinking" aspect, so I just need more time to evaluate how it's responding now. Getting on some roads I don't drive every day always helps point out the worst.
Of course if this turns out to not have solved anything, the only thing left, I think, is the steering knuckle? And I don't know if that could be damaged in a way to cause alignment issues without other problems being painfully obvious.
Of course if this turns out to not have solved anything, the only thing left, I think, is the steering knuckle? And I don't know if that could be damaged in a way to cause alignment issues without other problems being painfully obvious.
No.. If it was still able to align correctly, then its within the tolerances allowed by the manufacture. Its when you get to the limit of those tolerances, that you have to look deeper.
Shdwdrgn
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Hmm ok. This has reminded me that I did have a conversation early-on with the alignment guy. He seemed surprised that I was having issues and indicated that everything was well within specs. I think that's part of the reason why it's been so hard to figure this out, because there's no obvious issues that would even lead us in the general direction of something that might be bent.
Your only real option is to compare one side to the other using a straight edge or something. See how the knuckles on one side of the truck compare to the other, and same with the control arms.
Cant help much there really. I am half deaf, and cant hear them....
But there are really only like 10 things. Upper/Lower control arm bushings, Upper/Lower Ball Joints, Left/Right Tie Rod Ends, Rubber Spring Insulators on the Strut, End Link/Sway Bar links.
Yes, Ball Joints/Tie Rods can squeak when dry, and the metal is rubbing on the plastic or teflon coatings.
But there are really only like 10 things. Upper/Lower control arm bushings, Upper/Lower Ball Joints, Left/Right Tie Rod Ends, Rubber Spring Insulators on the Strut, End Link/Sway Bar links.
Yes, Ball Joints/Tie Rods can squeak when dry, and the metal is rubbing on the plastic or teflon coatings.
Shdwdrgn
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Well considering the strut is the only thing that I touched, that seems to narrow it down quite a bit. The thin rubber rings came new with the shocks, and I also got new top caps. Was anything supposed to be greased during re-assembly? I didn't see any grease on the parts when I tore down the struts so I just slapped all the new pieces together again.
[Edit] Doing some quick reading, and two suggestions came up. The first was to squirt some oil in around where the spring contacts the rubber bushing, but that seems... bad? However the second suggestion was regarding tightening things up while the wheel was dangling, and that maybe once the weight of the vehicle was dropped it is creating a twist again the spring. Makes me wonder if it would be worthwhile to loosen the bolt that holds the bottom of the shock to the cast iron frame, let the truck back down, then re-tighten that bolt? I dunno if that's a thing on this vehicle, but it sounded like a possibility.
[Edit] Doing some quick reading, and two suggestions came up. The first was to squirt some oil in around where the spring contacts the rubber bushing, but that seems... bad? However the second suggestion was regarding tightening things up while the wheel was dangling, and that maybe once the weight of the vehicle was dropped it is creating a twist again the spring. Makes me wonder if it would be worthwhile to loosen the bolt that holds the bottom of the shock to the cast iron frame, let the truck back down, then re-tighten that bolt? I dunno if that's a thing on this vehicle, but it sounded like a possibility.
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I wouldn't put oil on the rubber isolator. If anything it might create one or damage the rubber. I don't think it's anything in or on the strut unless something was not tightened enough and allowing movement or something rubbing like a boot.
The A-arm bolts MUST to be tightened while the truck's weight is on them so as to not give the bushings too much twist. If you tightened them while the truck was in the air, the bushings may have twisted themselves from their cans in the arms and rubbing against them instead of the slight twisting they would normally see.
The A-arm bolts MUST to be tightened while the truck's weight is on them so as to not give the bushings too much twist. If you tightened them while the truck was in the air, the bushings may have twisted themselves from their cans in the arms and rubbing against them instead of the slight twisting they would normally see.
Shdwdrgn
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Are the A-arms the same thing as the upper and lower control arms? I did actually assemble those while the front end was off the ground, however none of that stuff has been touched in the last 50k miles. Why would they suddenly start squeaking after rebuilding the struts?
Yes, same for upper and lower A-arms. Assemble loose and tighten once on the ground. Maybe the extra twisting of the bushings again after lowering it might have done them in.
A related "On Topic" Thread that provides additional Technical Input:
gmtnation.com
2004 - Trailblazer - Proper Alignment - Camber - Caster - Rear Diff
I don't know if just Firestone is horrid all over America or all franchise alignment shops are. I have been to alignment shops in about 4-5 states over the years and I have never had a good experience with any of them. I tried sears too and it was just as bad. The steering wheel is always...
gmtnation.com
Shdwdrgn
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So after multiple times on disassembling things, spraying everything down with different lubes, and so on, I finally got what I've been waiting for... It rained on my way home Monday evening. Went back to the office today, and the squeaks are almost entirely eliminated (and I suspect another good heavy rain will take care of the rest). This tends to reinforce my belief that there was dirt/dust around the rubber pieces causing the problem and they just needed washed out good, but I never had a chance to get over to the car wash to test that theory. At least I need to have the radio off and the windows down to hear the occasional remaining squeak to it's tolerable now!
OK back to the alignment question... I can't remember if I've brought this up here yet, but is it possible that the steering knuckle could have been bent in the accident? I'm pretty sure that piece is cast iron so bending without breaking seems unlikely, but considering all the other parts in the area have been replaced and measurements checked against the frame, I'm grasping at straws. Looking at pics of that part, it seems terribly flimsy and certainly would have taken the brunt of the impact, so... maybe? What do you think?
OK back to the alignment question... I can't remember if I've brought this up here yet, but is it possible that the steering knuckle could have been bent in the accident? I'm pretty sure that piece is cast iron so bending without breaking seems unlikely, but considering all the other parts in the area have been replaced and measurements checked against the frame, I'm grasping at straws. Looking at pics of that part, it seems terribly flimsy and certainly would have taken the brunt of the impact, so... maybe? What do you think?
Is it possible, and likely, actually yes. Just an opinion.
But unless you know the exact measurements, it would be hard to say.
Lets assume yours is bent, even slightly.. Even if you put a known good one next to yours, a 1/8 inch would be extremely hard to see.
If I am being real, the only real way to tell is to throw a new/used knuckle on there, which can be changed out in about 30 minutes. Then take it to get an alignment, and see how far out of spec it is, compared to your old alignment.
But unless you know the exact measurements, it would be hard to say.
Lets assume yours is bent, even slightly.. Even if you put a known good one next to yours, a 1/8 inch would be extremely hard to see.
If I am being real, the only real way to tell is to throw a new/used knuckle on there, which can be changed out in about 30 minutes. Then take it to get an alignment, and see how far out of spec it is, compared to your old alignment.
Shdwdrgn
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That's kinda what I was thinking. I'm getting new tires soon but still have time before the real snow hits. I'm seeing pulled parts on ebay for around $100 and spotted one where the vehicle doesn't have any front-end damage so that looks promising. I'll have to think about this a bit more before I jump on it.
So I guess the big questions are -- IS it actually cast-iron, and can something like that be bent without showing any obvious signs like cracking?
Depending on the type of cast iron, yes. I would replace it.
It could be one of the reasons why people often say a car doesn't feel right or the same after an accident.
It could be one of the reasons why people often say a car doesn't feel right or the same after an accident.
Shdwdrgn
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Any recommendations on a brand of ball joint that I can pick up from Amazon or a local parts store? I suspect I shouldn't trust the ball that comes on the replacement steering knuckle, and I think my existing one is about shot (I've been getting a clunking sound when backing out of the driveway the last couple weeks and noticed there was some movement in this same ball while working on the squeaking problem).
Nothing from Mevojunk, not even their TTX line. Moog nada. Stay away from parts store house brands as we don't know who supplies them.
I've been having good luck with Dorman chassis parts. There's also ACDelco that's relatively safe.
I've been having good luck with Dorman chassis parts. There's also ACDelco that's relatively safe.
Shdwdrgn
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Yeah I think Dorman is what I've been using for the control arms. All right, got one coming from Amazon. Is there anything else I should have on hand or expect to replace while doing this swap? I think I've had all the individual bits removed before but never everything all at once, so I suspect that 30-minute estimate is going to be rather generous for my speed.
I guess it's been a few years since I've touched any of this, so maybe I can get some verification... Start by pulling all the brake stuff out of the way. If I remember right, the top control arm doesn't have any pressure on it from the spring, so I can just pull the ball joint loose? Then I can pull the three bolts on the bearing, drop the lower control arm off the steering knuckle, and pull out the drive shaft -- and that should be just about it? Erg there must be steering linkage in there somewhere as well, I'll just have to figure it out as I go, but this doesn't seem like it will be a big deal. Maybe easier than swapping the lower control arms? (Hey, I can still hope)
I guess it's been a few years since I've touched any of this, so maybe I can get some verification... Start by pulling all the brake stuff out of the way. If I remember right, the top control arm doesn't have any pressure on it from the spring, so I can just pull the ball joint loose? Then I can pull the three bolts on the bearing, drop the lower control arm off the steering knuckle, and pull out the drive shaft -- and that should be just about it? Erg there must be steering linkage in there somewhere as well, I'll just have to figure it out as I go, but this doesn't seem like it will be a big deal. Maybe easier than swapping the lower control arms? (Hey, I can still hope)
Shdwdrgn
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Seriously? Well I'll be amazed if it's really that quick. Figure I'll install the new ball joint first before I start tearing down the truck, plus if there's a lot of heavy rust I'll try to give it a quick sandblast and primer. Think I still have some of the self-etching primer left from building the trailer last year. The seller is in Wisconsin but from their various sales there are a number of pics of this vehicle and everything looks pretty clean (that's the reason I jumped on this one) so I'm not expecting too much cleanup will be needed.
I was being facetious 
. It usually takes me about 45 minutes to replace just the hub but I can do it blindfolded. For you, I'd say more like 1.5-2 hours total.
. It usually takes me about 45 minutes to replace just the hub but I can do it blindfolded. For you, I'd say more like 1.5-2 hours total.
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Approximately 2 hours and 15 minutes, including the time it took to figure out how to use the ball joint press and get the new ball inserted (made a bit harder because I don't have a bench vice available right now).
So... uh... yeah. Absolutely no visible difference between the old and new parts, and yet when I took it for a test drive I thought it might be a little better. Then I realized I was still habitually adjusting the wheel for every little dip and roll in the road that I saw coming up. Once I planted my elbows then I saw the difference. This made me realize just how bad the wandering was -- basically every little roll in the road, every dip I drove through, every intersection that dipped for the cross road -- I had to compensate for everything.
And now? Well I took off from the house and forgot my seatbelt, but I was able to let go of the wheel and put it on at 40mph. The wandering was so bad that I couldn't even brace my knee against the wheel when trying this because I couldn't steer far enough with my knee to keep the truck straight when going straight down a smooth piece of road. Of course it will still drift off to the side when there's a good slope in the road, but I suspect that driving on the highway will be quite a different experience next week. When I got home I re-inspected the old part. I don't see any cracks or obvious damage to it, but for my test drive I found everything I could from the smoothest cement to the worst blacktop, and it really seems to be handling better.
I also expected it to be pulling a lot more, due to the shop trying to compensate for the previous drift, but it was really close. Tomorrow morning I plan to go get a new set of tires and a proper alignment, and then enjoy my new ride.
One concern still -- When I back out of the driveway and turn the wheel, I still have that popping. I thought for sure it was going to be the ball joint I just replaced, but no such luck. When they do the alignment they're always good about checking for loose components, so I'll see if they find anything.
So... uh... yeah. Absolutely no visible difference between the old and new parts, and yet when I took it for a test drive I thought it might be a little better. Then I realized I was still habitually adjusting the wheel for every little dip and roll in the road that I saw coming up. Once I planted my elbows then I saw the difference. This made me realize just how bad the wandering was -- basically every little roll in the road, every dip I drove through, every intersection that dipped for the cross road -- I had to compensate for everything.
And now? Well I took off from the house and forgot my seatbelt, but I was able to let go of the wheel and put it on at 40mph. The wandering was so bad that I couldn't even brace my knee against the wheel when trying this because I couldn't steer far enough with my knee to keep the truck straight when going straight down a smooth piece of road. Of course it will still drift off to the side when there's a good slope in the road, but I suspect that driving on the highway will be quite a different experience next week. When I got home I re-inspected the old part. I don't see any cracks or obvious damage to it, but for my test drive I found everything I could from the smoothest cement to the worst blacktop, and it really seems to be handling better.
I also expected it to be pulling a lot more, due to the shop trying to compensate for the previous drift, but it was really close. Tomorrow morning I plan to go get a new set of tires and a proper alignment, and then enjoy my new ride.
One concern still -- When I back out of the driveway and turn the wheel, I still have that popping. I thought for sure it was going to be the ball joint I just replaced, but no such luck. When they do the alignment they're always good about checking for loose components, so I'll see if they find anything.
Hopefully they do and tell them about it. On the alignment rack, they can turn the wheels side to side and can hopefully find where that noise is coming from.
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Got the new tires, and OUCH. I forgot the reason I got the estimate back in June was trying to beat the tariffs, but since I had such low mileage on the previous set due to the unusual wear t I didn't want to grab them until we were approaching Winter. So the cost of the tires doubled, adding more than $400 to the bill.
Anyway, new tires, new alignment, and it's driving nice and smooth down the road now. They also discovered the source of that clunking... All four of the lower control arm bolts were loose!!! It's only been about 3 weeks since I loosened everything at once on each side. I'm not sure what the torque is supposed to be on those, but basically I tighten as much as I can, then smack the wrench with a hammer to really seat them. Not sure what happened but I'll have to remember to check them again in a few weeks. I'm glad the problem was that simple, but I'm also annoyed by it.
So everything is tight now, the front end problems (other than the squeaking struts which keeps coming back) seem to all be resolved, and now I can move on to other issues. I really want to figure out why the horn isn't working (hardened grease in the steering wheel seems a likely culprit), and I need to get the thermostat replaced again. It finally feels like it's worth the effort to chase down these problems.
Anyway, new tires, new alignment, and it's driving nice and smooth down the road now. They also discovered the source of that clunking... All four of the lower control arm bolts were loose!!! It's only been about 3 weeks since I loosened everything at once on each side. I'm not sure what the torque is supposed to be on those, but basically I tighten as much as I can, then smack the wrench with a hammer to really seat them. Not sure what happened but I'll have to remember to check them again in a few weeks. I'm glad the problem was that simple, but I'm also annoyed by it.
So everything is tight now, the front end problems (other than the squeaking struts which keeps coming back) seem to all be resolved, and now I can move on to other issues. I really want to figure out why the horn isn't working (hardened grease in the steering wheel seems a likely culprit), and I need to get the thermostat replaced again. It finally feels like it's worth the effort to chase down these problems.
Glad you got it done. For the horn, grease has nothing to do with it (as in the old style slip ring) as there are clockspring wires in the column. If you need some help with that, do start a new thread in the Technical section.
It is likely that is the problem... not so much "hardened", more like spread across the contact. I think there is a spring loaded contact that can get contaminated with grease resulting in less than good / no conductivity. Cleaning the contact area should resolve the issue.
The other issue that can happen is that the spring loaded contact body is plastic and has to snap into the tube. It can come loose and / or break. :-(
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