Lock up issue: Thinking of changing the valve body

[steveO]

I have a lock up issue on inclines when traveling at highway speeds. It now rumbles more often and is more severe than in the past. I manually drop it to 3rd to avoid the rumbling.

Otherwise all shifts are normal and crisp. I have a tune with a "firm" shift which was suggested by PCM for less. The vehicle has 173K on the clock and about 150K on a totally rebuilt trans that carpped the bed under warranty.

From what I have researched, the best fix is to replace the valve body as the bore for the TCC valve gets worn causing the shuddering. The one I'm considering is adding a new seat and a SONNAX TCC valve to the valve body as well as a few other enhancements and parts changes. See link below

I have never changed a valve body before but have done all sorts of major work on cars so I'm confident that I can do the job correctly.
My hesitation is can I do this with the tranny in the vehicle in my garage?

Also, am I going overboard with the replacement of the valve body? From what I've read this is the proper way to correct the issue, other solutions are only band aids and may cause issues with the 1-2 shift and eventually cause the trans to fail.

Lastly, am I crazy to do this at all and should I just bite the bullet and get a remaned trany? IE 150K on the current unit.

Thanks!

http://www.ebay.com/itm/4L60E-4L65E-03-06-M30-VALVE-BODY-SONNAX-REMANFACTURED-REBUILT-CONTROL-VALVEBODY-/261293225781?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&fits=Model%3AEnvoy&hash=item3cd64a3735&vxp=mtr

 

[IllogicTC]

If I remember correctly, it can be done without dropping the transmission. You'll drop the fluid pan, and then pull the necessary fasteners and drop the body. I'll beat a bunch of people to the punch and just parrot off what will likely show up: "You should install the 'Vette servo, too." Must be a worthwhile mod, other people can expound on the benefits, I just wanted to be first to say it.

And if you can afford and perform the CORRECT procedure, I would suggest doing that over a band-aid fix any day.

 

[NJTB]

I thought the fix for that was a new valve body PLATE.
Yes, it can be done in the garage, biggest problem I had (not on a TB) was the check balls falling out when the valve body was dropped. Make sure you have a good picture of where they go. A dab of Vaseline (or whatever is used nowadays) will hold the check balls in place on reassembly.

 

[Mooseman]

I don't know about the valve body itself wearing out but it could possibly be the solenoid for the TCC. Could be a check ball that has worn through the valve body plate. People here have installed shift kits to fix some issues such as lazy shifts and have used this kit:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/4L60E-4L65E-1996-2006-1870-P1870-Code-Buster-Combo-Kit-Corvette-Servo-Kit-Book-/270874884435?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item3f1166b953&vxp=mtr

Just as a test, while cruising with the TCC locked, tap the brake to see if it disengages. If it does, then I don't see how it can be the TCC because as soon as you let go of the gas, the PCM will disengage it. It could be something with the 4th gear or its servo. The TCC does work in 3rd as well. If you drive only using 3rd, does it do the same thing?

Try contacting this seller as well as the one for the valve body to be sure of what you really need.

 

[steveO]

I will test the TCC lock up as Mooseman described to confirm. I drop it into third to prevent it from trying to bounce back and forth between lockup and 4th, that is where I get the shuddering. It seem fine on flat roads most of the time, it is when I'm starting a slight incline that it gives me trouble and at highway speeds.

Not often but I do recall it going from 3rd to lockup this was at low speeds. When in 4th it stays there unless i'm reaching a point that i'm easing off the gas while cruising. I assume this is the place it wants to go into lockup, in this condition it does lock up smoothly. Its the upshift to 4th from lockup that the issue occurs.
I have a two hour drive on the GSP this weekend with a couple of places along the way that cause the shudder to occur.

Driving around town it is somewhat abrupt when it drops from lockup to 4th but my speeds are lower... 45 mph or so.

My thinking was to not use the old valve body, for the difference in cost it makes sense to me to have one that was reworked with the new parts and the latest modifications the package includes :

• Valve Body Remanfactured
• Sonnax TCC Regulator Valve (#77754-03K) INSTALLED
• NEW TransGo Seperator Plate
• UPPER and LOWER Valve Body Gaskets
• 8 Check Balls (7 Installed)
• 1-2 Accumulator Piston and seal
• 3-4 Accumulator Piston and seal
• 2 Valve Body Filters
• Tested Solenoids included
• Transmission Pan Gasket
• Transmission Filter (Deep)
• Valve Body Installation Instructions and INFO​

​The TCC solenoid is not listed specifically, I will confirm this, while I have it apart it should also be replaced

Thanks for the advise.

 

[steveO]

Just as a test, while cruising with the TCC locked, tap the brake to see if it disengages. If it does, then I don't see how it can be the TCC because as soon as you let go of the gas, the PCM will disengage it. It could be something with the 4th gear or its servo. The TCC does work in 3rd as well. If you drive only using 3rd, does it do the same thing?

Update:

When cruising I simply took my foot off the gas and then back on. It would drop into 4th and then go back into lock up smoothly, no issues either way.
When in lock up and approaching an slight incline requiring more throttle to maintain speed (70- 75 MPH) It would sometimes shutter. When I did, I released the throttle briefly and reapplied it, it went into 4th and stayed there until it slowly reentered lock up.. so instead of letting it struggle, shutter and vibrate, I avoided this by quickly releasing and then reapplying the throttle.

If this means something to any of the 4L60E Techs out there please share your thoughts.

 

[Wishbone]

My transmission is doing the exact same thing, so I'm following this thread intently.

 

[Mooseman]

Not a tranny expert but two things come to mind. Either the TCC isn't getting enough pressure to hold properly and it's slipping or the TCC is toast.

You know that to disengage the TCC, all you have to do is tap the brake.

 

[steveO]

So what I should actually do is hold the throttle on and tap the brake petal to confirm the TCC operation.

If the TCC was toast wouldn't I have trouble in any lock up condition.... or is it slipping while locked up with the added stress of traveling up an incline.

The TCC valve seems to be a common failure due to ware in the valve body but it seems that it could also be the TCC itself. I guess no way to tell without taking it apart and examining the condition of the valve.

 

[Mooseman]

Yes, hold the gas with your right foot and tap the brake with the left, you should see the RPM jump up and then re-engage slowly again, which is the "normal" PWM engagement.

You could try to fix the valve with the new valve body as a hail Mary and see what happens. But this is throwing parts at it without any guarantees. If it's the TCC, then the tranny has to come out anyway.

 

[DAlastDON]

Yes, hold the gas with your right foot and tap the brake with the left, you should see the RPM jump up and then re-engage slowly again, which is the "normal" PWM engagement.

If you tap the brake and the TC doesn not unlock. Does that mean it is not PWM controlled?

No problems with shifting or TC lockup/unlock. Shifts very smoothly through all gears. At times i do not even feel it shift. Seldom feel TC lockup but i sometimes feel TC when it unlocks when decelerating. At full throttle, shifts are firm and much quicker. Every once in a while the rpm will flutter 100-300rpm when going up a slight incline. Make the TC come out of lockup and go back in then it is fine.

 

[Mooseman]

In stock form, the TC is controlled via PWM (Pulse Width Modulation) to slowly engage it, which is why you don't feel it. Basically, it slips the clutch while engaging it. A lot of guys don't like this because you don't know if it's really engaged or not and puts added wear on the TC. Putting in a shift kit that eliminates this mushy lockup and you get a firm TC lockup.

If it doesn't disengage when you tap the brake might mean something is sticking somewhere, either a valve, solenoid or the TC itself. It has to disengage otherwise it would stall the engine if you were to hit the brakes hard (like a manual tranny)

 

[Wishbone]

Well, so much for troubleshooting mine. 222,222 miles is all she had in her. Will have the trans rebuilt on Monday.

 

[Sparky]

Aw that sucks. Had you done anything to your trans like any transgo upgrades or no?

I'm wondering how long mine will last. 204k no issues yet, though I have had transgo upgrade stuff in there for 84k now. As long as the frame holds we'll keep truckin'

 

[Wishbone]

No. No maintenance whatsoever. That's why I was just following this thread and not speaking up, for fear of the wrath of the obvious criticism I would receive for failing to change fluid or filter... ever.

 

[steveO]

After some more reading I decided to give something a try DR Tranny instant shutter fix. A first I thought it was snake oil but after reading the reviews I figured what do I have to lose.

Long story short ..it works! I was surprised dont know how long it will work but I think this confirms that my issue is in the torque converter not the valve body.

 

[Mounce]

Interesting..one little tube of that stuff fixed it? (temporarily, I imagine it will come back) Not many of those miracle products actually work, that's impressive.

 

[Mooseman]

It's doing either one of two things. Letting the clutch slip or making it grab more like it should. Hope it's the latter. I too am skeptic about these additives that miraculously fix things.

 

[steveO]

When I looked at the container which is not that big, I thought... just wasted $9.00

Did a return trip yesterday up the GSP to home and it didn't shutter at all. We shall see how long it lasts.

There is another product they make that is supposed to be a better overall trans additive which is also a shutter fix.
For now I will ride it and see what happens.

For the record, I have regularly maintained the trans, I flushed (using the the procedure posted on this site) took about $80 worth of fluid to do it this way and changed the filter about 20K ago

 

[Mooseman]

Who knows? They might be a higher tier of snake oil makers

 

[Daniel_832029]

After some more reading I decided to give something a try DR Tranny instant shutter fix. A first I thought it was snake oil but after reading the reviews I figured what do I have to lose.

Long story short ..it works! I was surprised dont know how long it will work but I think this confirms that my issue is in the torque converter not the valve body.

Hey Steve, was wondering how long did it take to see an improvement? I put it in mine and drove it around the block, and no difference, so I got scared and brought it back to my shop.03 I6 Trailblazer LS,180,xxxmiles, My tranny oil looks pink and is at level. TB is clean as to procedure(including computer reset) Mine purs like a kitten, goes thru gears smoothly, but once I start up an incline, and theres a pull on the motor, the shudder begins. If I drive it for at least 25 miles on a round trip, you can smell something burning when you get out of the car.I need to take it to my trans buddy and let him put his high dollar computer on it, cause he can tell if its the solenoids at least. I have the cheap code reader and it shows no codes stored or showing pending. Any help from anybody would be appreciated!!! I hope I dont have Wishbones luck! I have changed the fluid @ 135000 miles and it was pink then too. Also will go try the brake pedal thing. So if it starts to shudder, keep foot on gas and if it revs and changes, its NOT the TC, but if it tries to die or stalls, it is? Did I get that right? Thanks again!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[steveO]

Well it has been working well with the additive but I have relatively new fluid

There is only one situation that I had a semi-shudder but it was in a situation that I felt that it should have up shifted out of lock up.
This was on a long steady incline on rt 206 north from Peapack to Chester. I let it go just to see what would happen and it was fine up until I neared the top of the incline.

If you hit tap the brake petal while holding the gas it should jump out of lock up into 4th or even 3rd.

As far as the smell, I don't notice anything.

 

[Daniel_832029]

[quote name="steveO" post="392332" timestamp="1421276189"Well it has been working well with the additive but I have relatively new fluid

Sorry, I meant after you yourself poured the shudder fix into the tranny, about how many miles did you drive b4 it started to work, and did you do a fluid change at the same time, or after? Also 1 more thing, I have read on several posts on here about the shift kit, but I have seen different prices, are some of the kits better than others, and you did a little extra, do I need to do as you for normal driving and vaca driving, or will the plain kit work? If I need to do more, would you be so kind as to give me a list of the kits I need. My buddy is coming over this pm to put his computer to it, hes also gonna ch3ck my stupid airbag light. Again, I appreciate your time answering my questions, thanks again!

 

[steveO]

Additive:
It started working quickly... within 10 miles or so. I did not change the fluid at that time but it had 10 - 15 K on the fluid.

I never installed a kit or valve body, I was researching but after looking into it, things came down to two primary causes (in my opinion) of the shudder, a slipping TC clutch or a worn seat in the valve body (TCC regulator) lockup solenoid.

I suppose someone could have both issues, but in my case the additive confirms that its the TC clutch so replacing the valve body wont fix that.

Valve body vs shift kit:
I didn't want to go through the hassle of modifying the valve body, I wanted to just install a reconditioned unit ready to go so I never really considered doing a shift kit on my valve body. To me the additional cost is worth it. The valve body kit I was going to uses many of the same parts included in the shift kits.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/4L60E-4L65E-03-06-M30-VALVE-BODY-SONNAX-REMANFACTURED-REBUILT-CONTROL-VALVEBODY-/261293225781?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&fits=Model%3AEnvoy&hash=item3cd64a3735&vxp=mtr

BTW unplug the airbag fuse and let it set for few minutes then reinstall the fuse that worked for me when that happened.

Good luck

 

[steveO]

Update:
Yesterday the Envoy lost all gears while I was driving on 287. There was no bang or grinding other than a slight bump as I was increasing the accelerator to bring it up to 75 MPH. It acted like it was in neutral. Once on the shoulder I check all gears and found it to be the same,no engagement.

After a $300 tow home, I checked to see what I thought might be the problem... The front pump failed... The trans fluid level does not go down when I start it. Going to remove the trans this weekend in hopes that I can fix it by replacing the pump and torque converter (shudder).

Looking for recommendations on the replacement parts IE the pump assembly and new converter as well as any advise on what else I should look.

If I can't fix it with the above parts I will most likely scrap/trade in/or part out the vehicle which is a shame as it runs great, rides great and is in very good condition considering its 13 years old ...but not worth the investment in a new trans.

 

[Dan_G]

It sounds like you know something about transmissions. Not sure if it helps but this guy on YouTube put up an amazing set of 4L60E transmission teardown and rebuild videos. He's obviously an instructor since the videos are super detailed. So if you need to see how to do any of this, no doubt it's in this video series. For example he does cover the SONNAX TCC valve issue in the video "Project 4L60E part 2 lesson 9." He sells parts (transmissionbench.com) but there are other places to get the parts as well. I don't know the guy or work for the company ... but he definitely knows a lot about transmissions. The videos show you how to do the rebuild without all the expensive tools (to the extent possible). Mind you, I have never rebuilt a tranny. It does indeed seem possible if you really wanted to put in the time and would enjoy that kind of challenge.

As for recommendations, this is a tough deal (one we all fear). My truck has 125K so one day I will probably have to deal with transmission issues. For the 2002 Envoy with a 4.2, Rock Auto has remanufactured 4L60E for about $1100 with a 3 year warranty. I don't work for them but this seems pretty reasonable. If you can do the labor for the swap, this seems like the lowest cost/labor hour option. Could buy you a few more years and you can't ask for more than that. I guess it kinda depends on the condition of the rest of the truck

If you really wanted to do the rebuild you could - in theory do it with those YouTube videos. I'm guessing it would take me at least 40 hours to do a teardown and rebuild. It probably would not save all that much money and there would be no warranty. The parts are not cheap. You know it will need a full rebuild kit and a SONNAX TCC valve ... so you are looking at more than $500 in parts/tools right from the start. You can see the cost of all those hard parts on transmissionbench.com. If anything else is wrong, it will add up fast. But it would be kinda cool and you would probably know it was done right.

 

[Sparky]

Dan, if it helps you feel any better I have 208k on my original transmission on my 2002. I do have the shift kit installed (I do that to all my 4L60E transmissions really).

 

[Dan_G]

Dan, if it helps you feel any better I have 208k on my original transmission on my 2002. I do have the shift kit installed (I do that to all my 4L60E transmissions really).

Thanks, I have an 06 with the 5.3L. Not much more power than the 4.2. The trans seems to be OK. Hopefully it will last for a while. The remanufactured trans for an 06 is also $1100 so that is probably what I would do. It looks like a big job to do the swap, but that seems like the most time/cost effective way to fix a transmission problem in an older vehicle like this.

 

[steveO]

As much as I would love to rebuild the thing myself, I just cant afford the time to do it.
And after doing the math on a rebuild, based on the parts alone it makes sense to get a reman that is dyno tested.
.
Dan_G Thanks for the videos... I'm now leaning towards a reman unit will make the final decision this weekend after I remove it .

 

[Dan_G]

Thanks for the videos... I'm now leaning towards a reman unit

Best of luck. Those videos are great. They show you just how complex these units really are. A 4L60 rebuild seems like a reasonable task - sort of. You should see the videos of Honda transmissions - totally different deal (front wheel drive so there is an axle in there too). Some of these more modern automatic transmissions/transaxles are just to complex to even attempt to repair on your own.

There is another guy who posts YouTube videos - Hiram Gutierrez. The guy is like a machine. Just like the transmission bench guy, he also knows what every single part is, fastener sizes, all the weak points and failure modes. These guys just throw all the bolts in a pile ... a big pile. You have to put the right bolt back in the right spot or it won't work right or could cause damage. These guys just know where everything goes and just put everything back in the right spot - pretty amazing. Gives you a whole new level of respect for what they do in the transmission shop.

Even if you don't do the rebuild on the transmission, the swap is a big job just by itself. If you do it, let us know how it goes.

 

[bugeyed]

After some more reading I decided to give something a try DR Tranny instant shutter fix. A first I thought it was snake oil but after reading the reviews I figured what do I have to lose.

Long story short ..it works! I was surprised dont know how long it will work but I think this confirms that my issue is in the torque converter not the valve body.

I tried the Dr Tranny too & it worked! I was seeing the shudder & later a thump when on a slight grade. All other shifting felt fine. Dr Tranny worked right away & still good after 160 miles. I have the LubeGuard Platinum additive to put in too, as a general treatment. Supposed to lower fluit temperature substantially & also has friction modifiers like Dr Tranny. Fingers crossed.
kev

 

[steveO]

I guess that Dr Tranny stuff is the real deal...Hopefully you get more time out of yours than I did mine.

Update: Re-man unit is on its way to the fright forwarders terminal tomorrow, hope it have it delivered late afternoon.

 

[Sparky]

IMO any of these additives are just band aids. Maybe it will last a while I don't know, but I'm just very suspicious of stuff like that.

 

[Mooseman]

I agree. Wouldn't you think that the OEMs would have put the same additives in the actual fluid if it made the tranny last longer?

 

[bugeyed]

I agree. Wouldn't you think that the OEMs would have put the same additives in the actual fluid if it made the tranny last longer?

You may be right, but these trannys have a common issue with TC lockup & others have designed products that fix the design problems. These additives may enhance the functioning of a TC that has already showing signs of wear. At any rate, it's not making any noises or shifting in any way that would lead me to believe I am doing more harm by driving it. I am keeping a close eye on it & the first sign of an issue, I'll be back in fixit mode. I do appreciate your insight.
Thanks,
kev

 

[Sparky]

True, but I'm just leery of a non-hardware fix for a hardware problem. Kind of like using stop leak in your coolant system. Will it stop the leak? Maybe so. But what else may it do long term? Ehhhhh I'd rather not risk it.

Either way I hope it work out.

 

[steveO]

Final update:

Remaned trans is installed and working perfectly!
Took a bit longer than I expected mostly due to the fact that I had to fabricate a few things to allow for me to use my floor jack to install the trans and the transfer case.
The transfer case was a bit of a surprise as it has to be rotated to a position that is not balanced to get it in place.
Otherwise it was not really a bad job.

 

[Dan_G]

Great news, glad to hear you are back on the road. That took some guts. We all know a dead transmission is one of the highest cost repairs that can ever happen to a vehicle. It's a big, very expensive problem. It does not matter what vehicle you drive ... big problem.

Luckily, a remanufactured 4L60E is like the lowest cost unit available on planet earth (as far as I can tell). So at least there is a "low cost" option. So you probably got this done for less than $1500, with a warranty of some kind (probably half the cost of what a transmission shop would have to charge you). You just can't beat that.

 

[steveO]

Thanks Dan _G ... I'm glad I put in the effort and kept the Envoy on the road.

If It didn't run so well and drive so nice I probably would not have made the investment in time and money.
I did have a quote to do the entire job that was over $3000.00. You are right on the money, it was nearly half factoring in the towing cost
Going on a long trip with it this week ... so far it has worked flawlessly.