Introductions/Thanks/Advice needed.

[alchapwn]

Hey guys! Just joined the forums and have to say I am overwhelmed at the wealth of information, as well as the overall congeniality, that this forum has! All too often you find these forums that more or less end up being a troll/flame-fest when really all your trying to do is help add to the community. I love my Envoy and feel right at home here with other gm fans as well! Now that we have that out of the way...

A HUGE thanks goin out to chvtrlblzr and may03lt and many others that helped me through the weird freaking wiring in these trucks that would've otherwise kept me from installing my new subs/amp yesterday. YAY!! You guys rock and love the youtube vids may03LT. Not (nod) using a torch (nod) to loosen a bolt (nod) was cracking me the hell up! I used chvtrlblzr's "version of an amp install" to pretty much do my whole setup (with my own twist on some things). That leads me to my next point...

I need a little advice here fellow audiophiles/bassheads.
My setup:
Alpine Type-R SWR-12D4 (x2)
Soundstream Rubicon 1600.1 (wired to 1ohm)
Scosche LOC-80 wired to the front outs from the bose amp (long story here, separate thread incoming)
0/1 AWG Battery--->amp--->frame (drilled a hole through the floor OMG!!)
Big 3 done and rock solid

Here is my question:
I have about $300 left in the budget. Lights dimming hard and I'm torn between battery upgrade (optima or sears platinum?) and a high output alt (new online or rewound/built at local shop?)
After much research I have found that these stock alts are no joke in these trucks. And with some new guts, might possibly be enough to fix my situation, not to mention maybe a little cheaper. Obviously, if i go the new alternator route, I may have to save a little more in the kitty.
Thoughts? Opinions? Advice? Huge thanks in advance to any/all help on this issue. You all rock!

 

[DDonnie]

Full LED/HID Conversion

 

[alchapwn]

Full LED/HID Conversion

Totally thought about goin that route but wasn't sure if a.)it would just add more strain to the electrical system (don't ballasts take lots of power?) b.)i wasn't sure that 1600w rms would be to much for stock electrical and cook my alt/battery and leave me stranded

 

[DDonnie]

Totally thought about goin that route but wasn't sure if a.)it would just add more strain to the electrical system (don't ballasts take lots of power?) b.)i wasn't sure that 1600w rms would be to much for stock electrical and cook my alt/battery and leave me stranded

Not sure about b, but HID'S don't use much more juice as far as i know. I think some people actually go this route to stop from dimming lights.

 

[alchapwn]

Nice. Thanks for the quick reply. I will keep this under my hat for now. I prefer to err on the side of caution so I wanna make sure I have a sound electrical setup first

 

[Wooluf1952]

Welcome


In case you haven't heard:
http://gmtnation.com/forums/topic/218-welcome-to-gmtnationcom-heres-the-story/

 

[Ryda55555]

welcome! im only running a 500 watt alpine system so i dont have problems, but what kind of battery are you running in it now? if its fairly new or is giving out full voltage then go with the alternator.
theres a bunch of guys running huge systems here im pretty sure if you message fr34kout he'll definitely help you out or tell you what he did (most of them do both but you can ask and see which one is best)

 

[alchapwn]

welcome! im only running a 500 watt alpine system so i dont have problems, but what kind of battery are you running in it now? if its fairly new or is giving out full voltage then go with the alternator.
theres a bunch of guys running huge systems here im pretty sure if you message fr34kout he'll definitely help you out or tell you what he did (most of them do both but you can ask and see which one is best)

Not very new (1yr old maybe) but is giving 14+ while running and around 12.5v when off. Pretty sure thats normal. as for the brand? auto store special i believe..run of the mill stuff here. Thats why im asking, I really feel that of the two, the battery is the weaker overall simply because of the faith i place in the beefier stock alternator, but i also hear that the battery is more or less a capacitor that stores energy for starting the vehicle and after that, the load is on the alternator.

im still pretty new to the forums so i dont wanna be that random creeper guy that pm's people who have no idea who they are...lol. I'll let him (hopefully) happen upon this thread on his own and maybe wait until im a little more desperate for info before i go forcing myself on people. But i hope it goes without saying, thanks very much for the help! In the meantime, get you more powa son! 500w is starving them subs!!

 

[Ryda55555]

Not very new (1yr old maybe) but is giving 14+ while running and around 12.5v when off. Pretty sure thats normal. as for the brand? auto store special i believe..run of the mill stuff here. Thats why im asking, I really feel that of the two, the battery is the weaker overall simply because of the faith i place in the beefier stock alternator, but i also hear that the battery is more or less a capacitor that stores energy for starting the vehicle and after that, the load is on the alternator.

im still pretty new to the forums so i dont wanna be that random creeper guy that pm's people who have no idea who they are...lol. I'll let him (hopefully) happen upon this thread on his own and maybe wait until im a little more desperate for info before i go forcing myself on people. But i hope it goes without saying, thanks very much for the help! In the meantime, get you more powa son! 500w is starving them subs!!

Hahaha true, but yea as long as the truck is on it runs off the alternator, when its in accessory mode it runs off the battery
But i used to have a 12" rockford p series with a kenwood 1000w amp but when i got my voy i went with a smaller 10" 500w alpine so i can actually hear and enjoy the music haha
Really the only time i actually pound my system is when friends want to or im showing off

 

[Black LT]

Some people had positive results from a HO alternator - or a second battery.
I think most did not.
I kept trying to figure out how to alter the way our charging system works.
The computer controls the charge rate from the alt.. So when the bass hits it dims the lights causing a call for more charge - but it's to late so the charge rate levels off - then another boom and the lights dim .....
So, adding a HO alt. or another battery won't change how the computer controls the alt..
I thought I knew which wire the computer monitored to control the charge, and I put a capacitor in that wire to try to smooth out what the computer was seeing - didn't work.
I have HID's and they flashed like crazy when I had it cranked.

So I finally added the second alt. - completely isolated from the vehicle charging system - dedicated to just the sub amp. All's good now!!

Probably not the route you want to go, but I'm just saying that I don't think the factory alternator is a problem for 90% of the systems people have. It's the charge method our trucks use.

 

[alchapwn]

Crap...definitely not the reply i wanted to hear. a second alt setup and the butthurt that would inevitably follow makes me cringe. Brackets, longer belts, possibly losing my a/c...ooofah, sounds terrible. Don't get me wrong, i very much appreciate you sharing what finally helped you, and hopefully others in the future will have this info to go by as well, but you are right..not my cup of tea. Ok, so scratch the new alt and battery, HID's are sounding more and more appealing. How many watts are you running in your setup that actually made your HID's flicker? we talking like 2,000 watts or 10,000 watts?

In other thoughts....Maybe there's a way to trick the alt into "ramping up" full time by taking the computer out of the equation? Maybe a new, less "responsive" voltage regulator (i think thats what its called)? or maybe just a way to slow down the polling interval the computer uses to tell if the car is currently getting enough charge...So many questions!!!!

Does any of this make any sense anymore? It's been a long day for me...

 

[Black LT]

Nah - don't give up - I'm sure some success stories will follow - I just stated what I thought.

I think you can probably trick the computer - or have the alt. not listen to it - just that the battery light would always be lit.

 

[MAY03LT]

You guys rock and love the youtube vids may03LT. Not (nod) using a torch (nod) to loosen a bolt (nod) was cracking me the hell up!

Thanks man! And welcome aboard!

im still pretty new to the forums so i dont wanna be that random creeper guy that pm's people who have no idea who they are...lol.

IMO the best thing you can do is make a thread, and pm the person(s) of interest asking if they could take a look at it. That way it helps this site build up content, and may get you the answer(s) that you're looking for.

The computer controls the charge rate from the alt.. So when the bass hits it dims the lights causing a call for more charge - but it's to late so the charge rate levels off - then another boom and the lights dim

Flawless victory sir

In other thoughts....Maybe there's a way to trick the alt into "ramping up" full time by taking the computer out of the equation? Maybe a new, less "responsive" voltage regulator (i think thats what its called)? or maybe just a way to slow down the polling interval the computer uses to tell if the car is currently getting enough charge...So many questions!!!!

Does any of this make any sense anymore? It's been a long day for me...

Me too. I'm posting at 2am lol.

But yeah it does make sense. I know Black LT did a lot of stuff to try to trick the computer so it wouldn't do a delayed ramp up. Our I6 engines don't get a lot of aftermarket support, so no aftermarket companies are stepping up with a solution. Back in the day, I installed a MLA module in a durango. I had 15.3 volts at the alternator + stud, but when I went into the PCM, it read 14.4 volts (which was slick because if the PCM saw 15.3, it would turn on the check engine light for an overcharging code). Maybe someday a company will offer us something good like that.

 

[dmanns67]

Are you running a capacitor with your amp and sub? Sad to say HIDs and LEDs make no difference. I am only running one Alpine SWR-10D2 and my HIDs and LEDs all dim when the sub hits. The big three helped the dimming slightly, but I am personally going to try the capacitor route to see if that resolves the issue.

Welcome to the Nation by the way!

 

[alchapwn]

Are you running a capacitor with your amp and sub? Sad to say HIDs and LEDs make no difference. I am only running one Alpine SWR-10D2 and my HIDs and LEDs all dim when the sub hits. The big three helped the dimming slightly, but I am personally going to try the capacitor route to see if that resolves the issue.

Welcome to the Nation by the way!

Let me know what you come up with. I was against using a cap because of all the negative things I hear about them. Fast discharge, bandaid, etc.
At this point I'm running out of options other than pulling the computer, extracting the firmware and hex editing the code to what I want... Lol

 

[alchapwn]

I thought I knew which wire the computer monitored to control the charge, and I put a capacitor in that wire to try to smooth out what the computer was seeing

I was thinking about this today at work and was wondering if a capacitor on this wire wasn't what was needed. Maybe a resistor? You could "trick" the computer into kicking on the alternator at a lower real time voltage. The drawback would be that the alt would stay on longer and possibly send more volts at the end of its "cycle".
Example: Say the computer sees a signal from the alt at 13v and turns on the alt to compensate. You hijack this signal, drop the voltage with a resistor so that the computer always sees 13v (even when its really 14.4v) and tells the alternator to turn on. That's pretty aggressive. Lets say you don't drop it all the way to 13v when you hijack it. lets say, to stay safe, you drop it to 13.4v... The computer then sees that trigger voltage sooner, and turns on the alt sooner.

Is my logic way off here?

 

[Black LT]

I don't know!!

I didn't think the capacitor would do any damage. It didn't.
Now it's your turn!!

 

[alchapwn]

I feel like this is a form of Russian roulette lol.

 

[The_Roadie]

Sorry I didn't look in on this thread for so long. Our alternator has a built-in voltage regulator. There is no external voltage control for normal operation. There are only two small wires going to the PCM:

1) A control FROM the PCM to the alternator to suppress its operation totally, and that's only active in very cold starts when the battery is cold and slightly discharged from cranking AND the engine and its oil is cold. The PCM suppresses the alternator start-up for a few seconds to allow the engine idle RPM to stabilize before dumping the mechanical load of the alternator onto the serpentine belt to recharge the battery.

2) A signal FROM the alternator to the PCM that tells the PCM how hard it's working to supply the load of the vehicle and accessories. This is the "field duty cycle" and when it's near 100% then the alternator is working as hard as it can. The PCM is programmed to look at this signal, measure the voltage on the battery line, and if the battery is failing to stay charged, and the voltage is steadily dropping, there's an undocumented mode (mentioned in the Service Manual only) to do some load shedding. You first lose the entertainment systems, then HVAC, then interior lights, and the exterior lights are the last to go - all attempting to keep the engine running as long as possible so the driver can linp to somewhere safe to stop.

Fiddling with these two wires with resistors or capacitors won't affect the built-in voltage regulator in any way I know of.

 

[alchapwn]

Wow man. Thanks for the awesome input! So no real way other than a stiffening capacitor and hoping it works...

 

[Black LT]

With the capacitor, I was trying to smooth out what the PCM saw. (trying to hide the voltage drop)
Kind of like the HID people putting a capacitor inline to make the DRL's operate at full strength.

And the guy at the local alternator rebuild shop said we can run the stock alternator just off the internal regulator - he just wasn't sure how the PCM would choose to punish us.
I know the dash battery light would be on - but if that's it, that may be acceptable to some. I think you would still have your gauge - just not the light.