Gas prices on the rise - time to talk about alternative fuels?

[Shdwdrgn]

I am waiting for the person that can perfect energy thru perpetual motion. It is a viable option, but its not a perfected technology, and has a LONG way to go to get there.

Er... I was with you right up to this point. Perpetual motion is impossible. It's kinda like asking two suns to just ignore each other's gravity well and drift apart on your command. If you want to get energy out, you have to put energy in.

 

[The_Roadie]

I am waiting for the person that can perfect energy thru perpetual motion.

Hope you're young and have other things to do in the meantime.

It is a viable option,

Nah. C.P. Snow's paraphrasing of the three laws of Thermodynamics:

1. You cannot win (that is, you cannot get something for nothing, because matter and energy are conserved).
   
2. You cannot break even (you cannot return to the same energy state, because there is always an increase in disorder; entropy always increases).
   
3. You cannot get out of the game (because absolute zero is unattainable).

but its not a perfected technology,

Never can be. See the Three Laws.

and has a LONG way to go to get there.

For very large values of long that include "infinite".

Brown's Gas, HHO electrolysis, Zero Point Energy, cold fusion, perpetual motion, magnets on the fuel line, catalyst pills in the gas tank. All flapdoodle and quackery. Save your precious time on earth figuring out how to understand and coexist peacefully with the rules that it operates under.

 

[TollKeeper]

Ok, maybe I used the wrong term, energy thru perpetual motion. I can agree that its impossible to break even... I designed a engineering principal that, in theory, it was possible to attain fuel mileage equal to half or three quaters of the speed of travel, variable of weight, and aerodynamic drag/coeficients. I have 2 problems. I am no engineering degrees, or theroretical design degrees. So the theory is all based on my own perceptions of cause and effect. When I took the design to engineering firms, to see if it was a viable thought and/or option. All the firms laughed me out of the office, all except one. The one that didnt said that until I get a person of electrical design, and theories, another of design principals, that no one would even look at it.

I still dont understand why. How do we as a people come up with new ideas without money and/or degrees.

I might be rambling a bit. Trying to type this out inbetween my work requirements, which means that I have to sign off.... Right now.

 

[The_Roadie]

Ok, maybe I used the wrong term, energy thru perpetual motion. I can agree that its impossible to break even...

Thanks for that. Many amateurs are in denial, and believe there are loopholes, footnotes, or other escape mechanisms from those laws. That's why scientists have agreed to call them "Laws" and not theories. It takes quite a bit more consensus and proof before observations can jump over that boundary to become known as "Laws".

I designed a engineering principal that, in theory, it was possible to attain fuel mileage equal to half or three quaters of the speed of travel, variable of weight, and aerodynamic drag/coeficients.

The units of fuel economy (MPG) are not the same as speed (MPH), so I don't know what you're meaning to say here. Can you put the principle into a single sentence?

I have 2 problems. I am no engineering degrees, or theroretical design degrees.

That's not automatically a disqualifier, but one benefit of formal engineering or scientific study is a good familiarity with things that haven't worked out in the past. So one can have an ability for critical thinking that filters out unsuitable ideas before wasting a lot of time on them. Many (perhaps not you) inventors start off thinking backwards - and instead of looking for flaws in their design or idea, overlook or rationalize them. Trying to obtain results from systems that don't meet the normal criteria of being thermodynamically possible.

So the theory is all based on my own perceptions of cause and effect.

Another benefit of formal training is to make sure your perceptions are shared by the scientific community. It makes having a conversation about your ideas more efficient when you finally have that conversation.

When I took the design to engineering firms, to see if it was a viable thought and/or option. All the firms laughed me out of the office,

Perhaps you weren't speaking their language...perhaps your idea had an easy-to-spot flaw. Did they share any reasons?

all except one. The one that didnt said that until I get a person of electrical design, and theories, another of design principals, that no one would even look at it.

Well, you have someone here (me) with formal training in electrical engineering, who almost majored in physics instead of engineering, who is a bit of a scientific historian, and a 38 year career in electronic systems. PM me if you want me to evaluate your idea privately.

I still dont understand why. How do we as a people come up with new ideas without money and/or degrees.

You don't have to have a degree to use the Scientific Method. It's the standard process to prove new hypotheses. DEVELOPING new ideas takes money, but that's normal. It's not a conspiracy against new ideas. Well, I should be complete - many new ideas can only be thought of after observing experiments (part of the Scientific Method), and some of these experiments might be expensive, so to be in a position to have a new idea, you might have had to spend a lot of money. Not everything can be run in simulation.

 

[limequat]

I've considered the point about alternative fuels a bit. I figure if the SHTF, there are two routes: electric or bio fuel.

Electricity can be easily generated at home via solar panels, windmills, or generators. The electrification of the vehicle marches on, and I see no end in site. As mentioned, though, cost of entry is high. One feasible entry point may be when li-ion batteries from hybrids start hitting the junkyard.

The advantage to biofuel is that you can grow it. Rapeseed oil for deisel and just about anything organic for alcohol. Takes a lot of land and a lot of time. In a post-apocalyptic world, a car that runs alcohol would be better than walking.

My driver runs E85. Not because I agree with the politics (I don't) or because I save money (I don't). The main driver is power. I run up to 22 lbs boost and 20 degrees timing and don't knock a bit. The torque gain is across the rev range and vast. It's race gas for the price of 86 octane. That said, I do like the fact that if the SHTF I can pour alcohol in my tank and go.

One more point about E85: While the math doesn't work here in the States, down in Brazil, they run E98 and are energy independent. Not a small country and they sell 4 million cars a year.

...

For ultimate flexibility, get your Civic (or aveo, or focus, or whatever). Convert to E85. Put an electric motor in back to drive the rear wheels. Your car will rust out before you run out of fuel sources.

 

[navigator]

I think the new volt is electric with gas generator.
The problem is it is over $40k.
The Cruze Eco gets over 40 mpg for under $25k.
will someone spend $15k in fuel in say 10 years?
If you figure 15k miles per year, over 10 years = 150k miles.
150k miles/40mpg = 3750 gallons of fuel.
If you figure 3750 * $5 per gallon that comes to $18750.
So the math kind of works unless you drive too many miles and have to put gas in the volt.
I'm also not sure how much it costs to charge the batteries on the volt.
I've read (somewhere) about $1 per day.
$1*365*10 = $3650

The math doesn't work yet for me, I haven't kept a car 10 years yet but I am working on it.
Besides, do we really know how long these hybrids will last?

 

[limequat]

I think the new volt is electric with gas generator.

Essentially. There was a flap a while back when the press figured out that the gas engine directly drives the wheels in some scnarios. So, technically, it's a hybrid. Except when it's an EV.

The problem is it is over $40k.
The Cruze Eco gets over 40 mpg for under $25k.
will someone spend $15k in fuel in say 10 years?
If you figure 15k miles per year, over 10 years = 150k miles.
150k miles/40mpg = 3750 gallons of fuel.
If you figure 3750 * $5 per gallon that comes to $18750.
So the math kind of works unless you drive too many miles and have to put gas in the volt.
I'm also not sure how much it costs to charge the batteries on the volt.
I've read (somewhere) about $1 per day.
$1*365*10 = $3650

Well, take off $7500 for the EV credit and it looks a bit better. Besides, most people don't use cold math when making a new car decision. It's an irrational decision, necessarily (otherwise, people would only buy used cars).

The math doesn't work yet for me, I haven't kept a car 10 years yet but I am working on it.
Besides, do we really know how long these hybrids will last?

No, but we know the Prius will last at least 10 years. I think a lot of us forget how long the Prius has been around. Consumer Reports found one 10 years old with 200k miles and found the performance close to that when it was new. Not too shabby. Also most hybrids have extended warranties on the batteries. I think ~8 years in the norm.

 

[The_Roadie]

It's an irrational decision, necessarily (otherwise, people would only buy used cars).

One of my most interesting freshman college classes was Engineering Economics, where we were first introduced to how money influences decision-making. Until then, I figured engineers were always tasked with making the "best" decisions, and the criteria for "best" involved things like elegance, meeting all performance specs, time-to-market, and such. When money enters the equation, we had a LOT of very interesting discussions.

The "how to spend the least on owning a vehicle" problem was solved by my team as follows (in 1970): Pay no more than $250 for a beater. Put no more than $100 into it for repairs. If it died and it cost more than $100 to fix, take your stuff out, and abandon it by the side of the road. Lather rinse, repeat.

Seems my team assigned little weight to aesthetics, getting dates, or the societal cost of disposal or recovering residual value.

 

[Fire06]

I always figure drive what you want. If you drive alot maybe get a more fuel efficient car for the mileage. If you drive abit who cares what you drive you are not burning that much fuel. On the grand scheme we use the truck for trips or if we are going somewhere, the car is for going to work and running around.

 

[limequat]

One of my most interesting freshman college classes was Engineering Economics, where we were first introduced to how money influences decision-making. Until then, I figured engineers were always tasked with making the "best" decisions, and the criteria for "best" involved things like elegance, meeting all performance specs, time-to-market, and such. When money enters the equation, we had a LOT of very interesting discussions.

The "how to spend the least on owning a vehicle" problem was solved by my team as follows (in 1970): Pay no more than $250 for a beater. Put no more than $100 into it for repairs. If it died and it cost more than $100 to fix, take your stuff out, and abandon it by the side of the road. Lather rinse, repeat.

Seems my team assigned little weight to aesthetics, getting dates, or the societal cost of disposal or recovering residual value.

Team of engineers? Yeah, no reason to consider getting dates, lol.

I can laugh too, I'm an ME.

I guess I have a similar story. I had an economics class in engineering school where I learned about the local used car auction. Capitalism in action. I bought at least 2 cars there and sold another. I didn't have dates in any of them

 

[TollKeeper]

Roadie, may take you up on that. Everything is packed up, for the planned, and hopeful move..

On the Prius bit. There is a Cab Company in Austrailia that uses the Prius exclusively. Out of their fleet, only 2 Prius's needed new batterys, they beleive the batterys went bad in constuction. But the rest of their fleet is running on factory parts (for the most part), and not a single Pruis in their fleet has less than 400k miles.

The battery needing replacement every 80k miles was a gimmick started by the american car companys that couldnt compete with the product.

There is a guy at my office here that has a Pruis. He use to use it as a Taxi, but has moved into the dispatcher role. His Prius has 372k miles on it. And it still drives as good as it did before he converted it into a Taxi. Its a bit uglier from Oxidation of the Lime Green paint they put on it thou!

 

[Fire06]

Brother inlaw had a prius one of the first. No room in it always borrowing the my dad's truck to go away (only 3 of them) . Just dumped it this past summer could not afford to get putting money into it was on it's second round of batteries ,needed the inverter and I don't know what all else. For what he paid could have bought a small car of same size Almost 1/2 the cost slightly less fuel mileage and saved money and had anyone fix it.

 

[limequat]

Brother inlaw had a prius one of the first. No room in it always borrowing the my dad's truck to go away (only 3 of them) . Just dumped it this past summer could not afford to get putting money into it was on it's second round of batteries ,needed the inverter and I don't know what all else. For what he paid could have bought a small car of same size Almost 1/2 the cost slightly less fuel mileage and saved money and had anyone fix it.

That would be the exception to the rule. Prii are largely reliable. I also question how one has difficulty fitting 3 people in a 5 passenger car.

 

[Fire06]

That would be the exception to the rule. Prii are largely reliable. I also question how one has difficulty fitting 3 people in a 5 passenger car.

They could fit is was lack of room for the suitcases and general stuff they took on trips. It has a small trunk he says and that is all I know

 

[navigator]

I got a Prius as a rental last summer on a business trip. I know they are more refined today than when they originally came out.
It was different to figure out some things that are natural in a normal American made car but I don't remember the trunk being small.
It was also quite peppy. If it weren't for some personal issues I have with Toyota I wouldn't mind owning one.

 

[DJones]

Saw this on TV and was very happy. We need more natural gas gas stations though:

Fort Wayne to Build GM's Bi-fuel Trucks

 

[Jkust]

I saw my very first Chevy Volt today in the one EV only parking spot in my underground parking garage downtown. The worst $250,000 car I've ever seen. Will be interesting to see when GM starts making them again. One of my good, closeted, liberal, friends has a 4 year old Prius he bought new to replace his v8 Jeep when an H2 lost control in the snow and totaled the Jeep when gas was really high. Other than the atrocious winter gas mileage, he has been 100% trouble free other than being a closeted liberal.

 

[HARDTRAILZ]

I saw my very first Chevy Volt today in the one EV only parking spot in my underground parking garage downtown. The worst $250,000 car I've ever seen. Will be interesting to see when GM starts making them again. One of my good, closeted, liberal, friends has a 4 year old Prius he bought new to replace his v8 Jeep when an H2 lost control in the snow and totaled the Jeep when gas was really high. Other than the atrocious winter gas mileage, he has been 100% trouble free other than being a closeted liberal.

I really liked the Volt I drove. Better than most cars of its size actually. My best friend owns a chevy dealer and said not one of the few he sold has had any complaint associated with it. I really thought they would not be as nice as they truly are. Nice interior with great displays and actually good acceleration and ride characteristics. I think the looks thing is opinion, cause I have seen far worse.

Sticker for $40K not $250K????

 

[Sparky]

$250k?

 

[The_Roadie]

$250K was a number thrown around quite a bit a month or two ago. Its calculation has since been refuted: Faulty Study Pegs Chevy Volt's Cost to Taxpayers at $250,000 Per Vehicle | PluginCars.com

The exact amount of the subsidies you can assign to each Volt is still up for debate, but it's admittedly a heavily-subsidized vehicle. Maybe $20-40K per unit?

I would not approve the $250K figure any more if I was a debate fact-checker.

 

[Jkust]

$250K was a number thrown around quite a bit a month or two ago. Its calculation has since been refuted: Faulty Study Pegs Chevy Volt's Cost to Taxpayers at $250,000 Per Vehicle | PluginCars.com

The exact amount of the subsidies you can assign to each Volt is still up for debate, but it's admittedly a heavily-subsidized vehicle. Maybe $20-40K per unit?

I would not approve the $250K figure any more if I was a debate fact-checker.

Yes the best you can do is use a range. I've seen as low as $50,000k per unit of subsidy and as high as $500,000k per unit of subsidy all with apparently convincing math and logic. The point is this is an egregious use of tax dollars whether it is $1 or $1B. You may recall last year my tax bill for the year was equivalent to a vacation home on a lake and probably a new Volt in the driveway for good measure yet I drive two last generation suv's and have no vacation home. I feel as though I get mugged each year and shaken down by a bunch of crooks to subsidize all kinds of things that are simply not appropriate for gov to be involved in or even worse the groups of lazy people I see jiving down everysingle day of the week openly bragging about their EBT card amounts. I'm not exactly happy with the government spending outside of the basics. We will let the private sector decide who wins and loses. Regardless the Volt isn't all that bad looking of a car, I'd have a difficult time with the winter range however. It really is too bad it bacame a political punching bag.

 

[MedicatedMike]

I hate this topic because the technology to get exponentially better milage, longevity of parts, and nearly free fuel sources all while creating NO pollution, has been around for over 50 years.....but of coarse the entire world is run by the rich elite that only care about monetary incentives and not what is best for the masses.

Realistically there is a few choices, yes get a more fuel efficient vehicle (which isnt going to be american, if you want the absolute best mpg, lowest maintenance, and best bang for buck).

If you are more of a DIY and have a lot of time on your hands, there is all kinds of other choices and technology out there. People have been converting their vehicles to run on a lot more than just corn gas or propane.

Vegetable oil is a neat one due to the fact that your fuel is free (and if lucky/smart you can even get paid small amounts to take it...lol) but you have to smell french fries all the time (which may or may not make you eat a lot more fast food...DISCLAIMER).

A really sweet alternative that the entire world should be running on is Hydrogen. I know its one of the hardest to switch over to now, as a individual due to costs but the upsides are tremendous. Hydrogen and oxygen burn hotter, more complete, and the by product that comes out your tailpipe....pure water....no pollution. You actually get MORE horsepower and torque as well, not to mention that Hydrogen is the MOST ABUNDENT ELEMENT IN THE UNIVERSE.

A better/upgraded cooling system is needed due to the Hydrogen burning hotter and even worse yet, it is much more difficult to convert a fuel injected vehicle to run on hydrogen vs a carburated one. (You would really have to be a DIY'er and a Genious to covert a fuel injected soley to hydrogen and not just supplement all by yourself)

I had a old 84 camaro (carb 350 engine) that I converted to run partially on hydrogen for less than $50 back in high school, just from watching a few youtube videos of guys experimenting around on their cars a decade ago. Only about 20% hydrogen, so only gained me like 3 mpg, but for a car that got around 12 mpg when i wasnt doing burnouts, it was something. So cheap and easy but I was afraid to go more than 20% bc I didnt have the tools or know how to completely redue the cooling system. sorry for the rant, I just feel the need to wake others up sometimes about options and supressed technology. Not sure why, not like we all going to just demand better products and quit buying the pretty turds.

*****Side note, getting rid of that Camaro was nukin futtz!!!!! What were u thinking! Got pic?

 

[Busterbrown]

A really sweet alternative that the entire world should be running on is Hydrogen. I know its one of the hardest to switch over to now, as a individual due to costs but the upsides are tremendous. Hydrogen and oxygen burn hotter, more complete, and the by product that comes out your tailpipe....pure water....no pollution. You actually get MORE horsepower and torque as well, not to mention that Hydrogen is the MOST ABUNDENT ELEMENT IN THE UNIVERSE.

I agree with hydrogen as being an viable and infinite energy source globally. In fact, a few years ago, I was truly convinced that we would reach a new paradigm in energy production (over the next decade). Unfortunately, for vehicles, hydrogen fuel cells are plagued with several handicaps that current R & D initiatives aren't equiped to formulate solutions. The biggest three are based on inadequate national delivery systems, temperature gradients, and volatility of the compressed gas.

Cost isn't much of a concern as the law of supply and demand would generate acceptance of a credible alternative. And because the US government withdrew its support for the technology a few years ago, momentum was lost to go forward with private and/or public development.

 

[stormsurge]

Hope you're young and have other things to do in the meantime. Nah. C.P. Snow's paraphrasing of the three laws of Thermodynamics:

1. You cannot win (that is, you cannot get something for nothing, because matter and energy are conserved).
   
2. You cannot break even (you cannot return to the same energy state, because there is always an increase in disorder; entropy always increases).
   
3. You cannot get out of the game (because absolute zero is unattainable).

Never can be. See the Three Laws. For very large values of long that include "infinite".

Brown's Gas, HHO electrolysis, Zero Point Energy, cold fusion, perpetual motion, magnets on the fuel line, catalyst pills in the gas tank. All flapdoodle and quackery. Save your precious time on earth figuring out how to understand and coexist peacefully with the rules that it operates under.

HHO works. just not enuff to justify the time you put in it. If you spend alot more than i did, you can get a good working kit. Then again, how much gas would a few grand buy lol. Maybe someday but not yet.

 

[lint]

Price at the pump.

 

[essaycho348]

i am in the middle of coverting my tb to run on cng, ive looked into a lot of things and cng was the way i decided to go. here in milwaukee there are five pumps able to be used publicly. Last summer they were at something between .88 and 1.00 a gallon they always go up in the winter to like 1.40 to 1.50 or so and now they are at 1.90 i own a lawn care business on the side so i want to use it as leverage for being green.

The fact that cng does not directly reflect gas prices is a plus for me. Though im seeing that it does reflect prices when demand for cng goes up. Propane is a by product of refining oil. but cng is pulled from the ground. Also they are starting to figure out ways to pull natural gas from landfills. Its also cleaner so that means plugs, o2 sensors and oil stays cleaner, lasts longer and near zero emissions. But because its a more dry fuel it is recommended that you burn through a tank of gas every month to keep from drying up gaskets and such, i don't know if there is much truth to that though.

The downsides of cng is that its limited range. but there are more and more pumps popping up nationwide in certain areas. and when retrofitting a vehicle to cng mounting the tanks is always a pain. but hey when im paying less than $2 a gallon and everyone is paying $5 with how much i drive it will pay for itself in about a year.

thats my

 

[HARDTRAILZ]

Whats your total cost that will be paid in a year?

 

[essaycho348]

i paid $1000 for the kit from a guy that was moving to DC, they dont have cng there was his reason. he pulled his kit from a 05 3/4 ton chev. and gave me all of the info on how he hooked everything up to his truck. some of it matches mine, some doesn't. I drive about 20k miles a year a 16mpg average and gasoline at $4.50 thats $5600, with cng, i figure 15mpg cng at $2.00 thats $2600 a year.

 

[Sparky]

CNG bothers me personally. I've seen the aftermath of a ruptured tank...NOT a pretty sight!

 

[Shdwdrgn]

CNG bothers me personally. I've seen the aftermath of a ruptured tank...NOT a pretty sight!

Would you prefer a ruptured hydrogen tank?
I think any fuel source is going to have the potential for bad things to happen, but we live with that possibility so we can have the convenience of easy travel.

@essaycho348 - I'd love to hear more about your experience with cng. Any issues that come up as you finish the install, and then what you think of the performance, and what your mileage costs turn out to actually be. Are you doing a total conversion, or are you setting up for dual-fuel capabilities?

 

[trailblazer075]

Actualy it s 1.86 euro / a litre.

 

[Sparky]

Would you prefer a ruptured hydrogen tank?
I think any fuel source is going to have the potential for bad things to happen, but we live with that possibility so we can have the convenience of easy travel.

@essaycho348 - I'd love to hear more about your experience with cng. Any issues that come up as you finish the install, and then what you think of the performance, and what your mileage costs turn out to actually be. Are you doing a total conversion, or are you setting up for dual-fuel capabilities?

Oh I know all fuel sources will have some level of danger to them - if they didn't, they wouldn't be much good for fuel now would they? But fuels like gasoline don't explode in their normal form. CNG is VERY explosive. Not sure how it compares to hydrogen (H2 probably blows up more I suppose) but it still is rather unsettling to realize that your fuel tank could go off like a bomb

 

[LBB]

E85 and such stuff is BS, unless you are in a country that is good in growing sugar plants.
E85 was only brought into the market so it can be proven bad.

In Germany they have Biodiesel and use Rapeseed to get it. In the summer time you can see a lot of fields have this yellow flower on there fields. If they would plant this instead of corn, they could actually make money without getting so many substitution as they get for corn. And the oil price would go down.

Now people say biodiesel is bad for there vehicle and there vehicle can't use it. I believe that all diesel vehicles sold in Germany can run with B100 without a problem, so what would be the problem with a similar vehicle here in the USA? It can't be that they build them so differently.

You also can use old cooking oil in this kind of vehicles, a cleaning kit doesn't cos so much and can be stored in your garage.

So I would hope that more manufactures here start selling vehicles that can run on Biodiesel and that some farmers start planting it. This could help everybody in the USA.

By the way, of you would build a hybrid with front wheel drive by the diesel engine and back wheel drive by the electric engine, you could save a couple of hundred pounds in driving shaft and all kind of things that are not really needed.
But I don't know any company that builds a vehicle like this, specially SUV's.

 

[essaycho348]

well my cng conversion is almost complete. there are a lot of things that i need to clean up and get fine tuned but it works, here it is i just finished a build thread of it. sometime soon ill start keeping track of mileage and costs of both gasoline and CNG in my truck

http://gmtnation.com/f67/essaychos-03-trailblazer-ext-v8s-cng-build-thread-3600/#post71471