NEED HELP Flex Fuel Sensor Pid P59

[YUKON87]

So I was wondering if anyone is aware of an alternate pid to read the Flex Fuel sensor of a 3rd gen vortec 5.3, VIN Z. Through my nearly year of research and understanding there is often two or more pids that are available for any given sensor. Sometimes a PID number may be different to read from the same sensor for a percent versus a voltage rather than altering the equation. I am aware of a custom PID with the following values:

Pid: 220052
Long name: Ethanol Fuel Percentage
Header: Auto (Tried 6C10F1)
Scale:1X
Diagnostic Start: None
Diagnostic End: None

The only other relevant info I have is a table value in relation to this of B3103="Default Fuel Composition."

I have recently obtained a Supposed "Flex Fuel" spark Advance PID "(Aspark)" but unsure of how this even works or if it's related and if so can this be used to estimate ethanol percentage. Any help would be much appreciated! I know my flex fuel sensor is active in the tune as I can see my commanded AFR adjusting slightly and the "ASPARK" Is active. 220052 Is No green and Ecm gives a 7F620052"12" Error upon hitting test through Torque Pro running Bafx adapter.

 

[Maverick6587]

You could check with @TJBaker57

You can scroll through his thread for PIDs as well.

More PIDs for Torque App

A short time ago I posted a new pid I discovered for the Fan Speed of a 4.2 in a 2002 Trailblazer. It was properly suggested by MRRSM that I repost that information here so here I am. It is possible that this is my first original post! I have been spending a great deal of time fiddling with...

gmtnation.com

 

[YUKON87]

You could check with @TJBaker57

You can scroll through his thread for PIDs as well.

More PIDs for Torque App

A short time ago I posted a new pid I discovered for the Fan Speed of a 4.2 in a 2002 Trailblazer. It was properly suggested by MRRSM that I repost that information here so here I am. It is possible that this is my first original post! I have been spending a great deal of time fiddling with...

gmtnation.com

Ty. I have inquired with him about this but I fear we may not be able to come to a solution as he has a 2005 lm7, which is non Flex Fuel and mine is a 2003 l59 FCS (Fuel Composition Sensor) Truck. He would have no way of verifying any pids we could work out. However if anyone has a 2002-2006 Flex Fuel Truck maybe this can be worked out. The only pid i have discovered would be 220052. And a broadcast code of 1019. MSB IS 48.

 

[YUKON87]

Well here is something very interesting. On the header in Torque Pro, where I was using 6C10F1, i changed F1 TO F3. I then shut the vehicle down, reset my adapter, and reset my trip counters. I than reconnected and turned the key to run position, and hit test immediately. I had to wait a full 2 minutes leaving it in test Pid. This is what I got. Thoughts? @TJBaker57 My theory is my adapter is too slow. So with enough time of waiting it made the request at the right time and eventually I got data. If I add 01 at the end I get a 31 response I believe, instead of a "12" error message.
Also want to comment that I tried bites a b c and d and a and b only, return data. C returns all ones. Also I would assume that this is returning data in hertz. As it is said for the Ford PID. One should take away 45 to 50 hertz at the end of the equation result. On another GM forum I read to take away 45 to offset the result.

 

[TJBaker57]

The changing of 'F1' to 'F3' serves only to change the address of the scantool for that particular request. Modules responding to that request would presumably direct their response to 'F3'. Will Torque even see these responses where the standard address is F1?


This delves into an area of the Torque App I have not fully studied. I do not know how Torque might deal with this change without also making an appropriate change to the address being used by the OBD adapter. Does Torque take that action? I do not know.

I have dabbled a little with using alternate node addressing for my elm327 clone(s). I use an 'AT RA' command to instruct the elm clone to listen on say 'F2' instead of the default 'F1'. However, often I am doing these actions outside of the Torque App, most often using a serial bluetooth terminal app. Once or twice I have set Torque to do this using the 'very advanced' options in Torque Vehicle Profile editor.

So what does this say about your test?? From what I know the F1 to F3 change should change nothing with regard to the data of response. And we cannot know where Torque is getting the response you see there in the PID test. I have an OBD datalink splitter that I use with multiple elm327 clones such that I can monitor and record bus message traffic on one while performing actions on the other. So I can see what is on the bus while Torque is active. (Indeed, during a fault scan with Torque I have seen fault code responses from the TCCM that the app for some reason then does not display!! )

 

[YUKON87]

Still, I think it is a speed issue vs chatter or traffic issue. There is the speed of the device (your smartphone or computer), the speed of the app, the quality of the connection, and the limitations and bandwidth of that connection along with the elm327 device itself "clones". I don't have the knowledge you possess but I am very familiar with the workings. From what I can figure, changing the F1 simply puts it to a different port or Channel. Maybe less chatter? Of course i do not know how torque responds to this query if it does not see something it expects, or how the defaults are coded. I believe there is a buffer limitation as well. That is why I reset everything, cycled the key off then on, and hit test immediately. Maybe some of the modules sleep. Theory only of course. Maybe sending the request before there is too much chatter on the bus? Who knows. Thought you would find this interesting. Furthermore, if this is giving me correct values, following the suggestions about an output in hz, and using the equation offset, the 12.XX readout, at that time, would line up with what my AFR commanded read (13.9:1), which should be around 12.50 % E. Who knows. Ty for your input.

EDIT: there is a send command for elm327 commands within the torque app. Have been testing different commands with this and studying the response. This is how I reset part of the adapter. ATZ, ATD ect.

 

[YUKON87]

The changing of 'F1' to 'F3' serves only to change the address of the scantool for that particular request. Modules responding to that request would presumably direct their response to 'F3'. Will Torque even see these responses where the standard address is F1?


This delves into an area of the Torque App I have not fully studied. I do not know how Torque might deal with this change without also making an appropriate change to the address being used by the OBD adapter. Does Torque take that action? I do not know.

I have dabbled a little with using alternate node addressing for my elm327 clone(s). I use an 'AT RA' command to instruct the elm clone to listen on say 'F2' instead of the default 'F1'. However, often I am doing these actions outside of the Torque App, most often using a serial bluetooth terminal app. Once or twice I have set Torque to do this using the 'very advanced' options in Torque Vehicle Profile editor.

So what does this say about your test?? From what I know the F1 to F3 change should change nothing with regard to the data of response. And we cannot know where Torque is getting the response you see there in the PID test. I have an OBD datalink splitter that I use with multiple elm327 clones such that I can monitor and record bus message traffic on one while performing actions on the other. So I can see what is on the bus while Torque is active. (Indeed, during a fault scan with Torque I have seen fault code responses from the TCCM that the app for some reason then does not display!! )

If you look into the file directory for torque you will see the DTC archives /definitions file that torque should be reading from. This has the same DTC definitions as other software. Where others can decode and display these faults. Torque apparently is not instructed to read Body ,Chassis , ABS , TCM or SRS DTCs. Should be noted this is not encrypted, it is a binary file spelled out in plain English. Also I expect this is not the only part of the DTC system that is involved. Torque likely decodes the values and then matches them up with the DTC definition archives. Again Idk. By the way where is IH these days. What a generous app he has created.

 

[YUKON87]

Would like to add one more thing to this post. I had forgotten about the preprogrammed data update delay before it reports new data. Maybe this is the way the older Flex fuels work. Changing to F3 may or may not have made any difference in the data retrieval as the sensor may only spit out data at pre-programed set points such as delay fuel volumes. This could be a possible reason most of the time I do not get fresh data. Seems to update more often during a fresh ignition cycle. For some reason it seems the longer I Poll for data, the longer it takes to tick green in torque with fresh data. Also I would like to add that it is my hope that this information will help someone and give someone better insight into how some of this data may work. Can't say how many times people have tried to read this sensor and got no data or response at all, many of which seem to just give up. A lot of money is spent in this process as a work around to read this parameter. Obviously I cannot confirm as to the validity of the data or response I am getting, but at least it is something whereas I got nothing at all for several months.

 

[YUKON87]

Here is a screenshot of a alternate PID compared to flex fuel PID 220052 that gives the exact same readout for the flex fuel sensor. (Only get data with header 6C10F3)

 

[YUKON87]

.

 

[TJBaker57]

@YUKON87

So....I recently have been logging the normal class 2 network chatter, seeking to learn something related to the TCCM operations. While gathering data I discovered something very curious. Evidently both my 02 TrailBlazer with LL8 and my 05 Yukon with LM7 use the address 'F3' for some normal function! This is without any outside user interference. When I saw the log with the address F3 I immediately remembered this discussion here. Maybe what you experienced was some of this traffic being interpreted by Torque as a response to your data request.
Here is a screenshot of a part of my log loaded in a spreadsheet.

I used a serial terminal in conjunction with the ELM327 AT MR command and the value F3 as node to listen for so in this log only traffic addressed to F3 is received. I also have used AT MA to record ALL traffic and find no responses to the F3 messages. In hours of logging I have only witnessed F3 messages from $10 (PCM/ECM), $40 (BCM), and $98 (HVAC). Of course, I would have to say these are the most active modules generally.

You may notice the values of $92 and also $93 in the data portion of the BCM messages. These were some of the same values seen in your screenshots in posts #4 and #9 earlier in this thread.

As far as what the purpose of this traffic I have no idea.

 

[YUKON87]

@YUKON87

So....I recently have been logging the normal class 2 network chatter, seeking to learn something related to the TCCM operations. While gathering data I discovered something very curious. Evidently both my 02 TrailBlazer with LL8 and my 05 Yukon with LM7 use the address 'F3' for some normal function! This is without any outside user interference. When I saw the log with the address F3 I immediately remembered this discussion here. Maybe what you experienced was some of this traffic being interpreted by Torque as a response to your data request.
Here is a screenshot of a part of my log loaded in a spreadsheet.

I used a serial terminal in conjunction with the ELM327 AT MR command and the value F3 as node to listen for so in this log only traffic addressed to F3 is received. I also have used AT MA to record ALL traffic and find no responses to the F3 messages. In hours of logging I have only witnessed F3 messages from $10 (PCM/ECM), $40 (BCM), and $98 (HVAC). Of course, I would have to say these are the most active modules generally.

You may notice the values of $92 and also $93 in the data portion of the BCM messages. These were some of the same values seen in your screenshots in posts #4 and #9 earlier in this thread.

As far as what the purpose of this traffic I have no idea.

View attachment 95015

Thank you for taking the time to share this information with me and help me to address my curiosity as to why F3 got me data when no other would. This also confirms that at least some of the data returned did not pertain to my vehicle specifically (Flex Fuel). I had bits and pieces of information that I had learned over the scan tool address and had observed using f8 or F6 could mean the difference in getting the data requested or not. In the case of transmission input and output shaft speeds, I do believe, I had to use f8. I had briefly scanned through a primer on reading transmission pids in a document for a scan tool. I theorize a lot as I'm sure you have observed, but it has served me well for the most part. I had gained the understanding that possibly only certain data would report at a certain specified header address. This is extremely helpful thanks again.

 

[YUKON87]

@YUKON87

So....I recently have been logging the normal class 2 network chatter, seeking to learn something related to the TCCM operations. While gathering data I discovered something very curious. Evidently both my 02 TrailBlazer with LL8 and my 05 Yukon with LM7 use the address 'F3' for some normal function! This is without any outside user interference. When I saw the log with the address F3 I immediately remembered this discussion here. Maybe what you experienced was some of this traffic being interpreted by Torque as a response to your data request.
Here is a screenshot of a part of my log loaded in a spreadsheet.

I used a serial terminal in conjunction with the ELM327 AT MR command and the value F3 as node to listen for so in this log only traffic addressed to F3 is received. I also have used AT MA to record ALL traffic and find no responses to the F3 messages. In hours of logging I have only witnessed F3 messages from $10 (PCM/ECM), $40 (BCM), and $98 (HVAC). Of course, I would have to say these are the most active modules generally.

You may notice the values of $92 and also $93 in the data portion of the BCM messages. These were some of the same values seen in your screenshots in posts #4 and #9 earlier in this thread.

As far as what the purpose of this traffic I have no idea.

View attachment 95015

Do you have onstar?

 

[TJBaker57]

Do you have onstar?

As far as I know the Onstar in both my Yukon as well as my TrailBlazer is too old to work anymore. Something about Analog vs Digital signals??

I read a post somewhere about someone using the Onstar system to display up to xx number of characters on the drivers information display. They did it by spoofing the system that displays a phone number over the class 2 serial data bus??

While we're still in this thread... here's something related... I discovered what that F3 address thing spoken of earlier in this thread is!! The system reports "Exterior Environment" information to that address using it as a 'Functional' Address in a priority 4, type 10 message.

8A	F3	40	14	92	DE	CC
8A	F3	40	14	93	DC	BA

These are status messages from the BCM to the functional address F3 with a secondary ID of 14 and extended addresses of 92 and 93. The values DE, DC are values of the left and right solar load sensors which are housed along with the light sensor in that little dome in the center of the dash near the windshield. Other parameters reported to this F3 functional address might be light sensor, outside temperature, barometer and such things.

I think Torque does not discriminate between functional vs physical addressing and thus returned the values you received when using F3 as a return address.

 

[YUKON87]

As far as I know the Onstar in both my Yukon as well as my TrailBlazer is too old to work anymore. Something about Analog vs Digital signals??

I read a post somewhere about someone using the Onstar system to display up to xx number of characters on the drivers information display. They did it by spoofing the system that displays a phone number over the class 2 serial data bus??

While we're still in this thread... here's something related... I discovered what that F3 address thing spoken of earlier in this thread is!! The system reports "Exterior Environment" information to that address using it as a 'Functional' Address in a priority 4, type 10 message.

8A	F3	40	14	92	DE	CC
8A	F3	40	14	93	DC	BA

These are status messages from the BCM to the functional address F3 with a secondary ID of 14 and extended addresses of 92 and 93. The values DE, DC are values of the left and right solar load sensors which are housed along with the light sensor in that little dome in the center of the dash near the windshield. Other parameters reported to this F3 functional address might be light sensor, outside temperature, barometer and such things.










I think Torque does not discriminate between functional vs physical addressing and thus returned the values you received when using F3 as a return address.

Incredible, very knowledgeable indeed you are as well as resourceful. One of the things I have tried so hard to achieve is to read Ambient Air Temperature. The reason I asked is because I theorized that maybe OnStar could be intercepting some of the PID reads. I do know that on newer systems, which are much different nowadays, OnStar can see all kinds of information. Probably through a somewhat unique connection to the DLC. May even have something to do with the flex-fuel stuff who knows. Again hats off! Thanks for the valuable info and insight once again. Edit: As far as analog vs digital signals, that's the main thing I remembered reading as well. And also that it used a different wireless connection method altogether, compared to an older style if you will, incompatible with their new wireless system, kind of like "WiMAX" vs "LTE", what seemed to me to be similar to a old phone compared to a new phone.

 

[YUKON87]

One more thing I would like to mention out of curiosity is one of the parameter lighting fixtures came loose from under my driver's side mirror. I noticed, housed in with those lights, a bubble style level. You may have this as well. This may work with the steering assist system on my vehicle amongst other things. Who knows. Been too busy to do any additional research as of late. Thought I would share that bit of info with you thanks again.