Crank but no start - Service Brake System

[92s10blzr]

Hi Guys,
2003 Envoy XL with DIC.
About a week and a half ago, i took my Envoy to get it detailed. The carpet was shampoo as well. This is when it all started. of course the carpet was still wet, the guys told me to drive around with the windows open so that it drys out completely. As soon as I drove off and turned the corner, i noticed that my dash gauges went crazy and the inside lights were on. i noticed that the security light was on and the DIC said, unknown driver. I drove back to the carwash and the manager said to get it a day for the carpet to dry out and see if everything goes back to normal. i agreed and left the carwash and proceeded to drive around with the windows open. i could lock the vehicle remotely so i didn't go anywhere that would require to leave the car unattended as the back hatch did not lock with remote cause the DIC didn't recognize any of the remotes.
The next day, I went out to the car and i was able to unlock the vehicle with the remote, I was glad that it was back to normal. later that day, i noticed that the mirror knob would control the passenger side mirror only, no matter which mirror is selected. even when the knob was in the center position. Didn't mind that too much and decided not to make a fuss over it. the following week i went out of town and the envoy stayed parked in the drive way all week. when i got back, I decided to use it the entire weekend and there wasn't any issues. the next day(Monday) i drove it to work, pulled up to the parking structure, pulled up to a stall and put it in park and pulled back the e-brake. i left the car on as i gathered my things and once i reached to turn off the car, as soon as my hand touched the cylinder, the engine shut off. it caught me off guard cause for one, the key was still in the "on" position, and two, i noticed numerous chimes but didn't pay too much attention to it. i removed the key and proceeded to work. lunch time came around and was going to drive out, but when i tried to turn it on, it would just crank and crank, and not start. it wasn't until i left the key in the on position that i noticed the numerous chimes again and when i looked in the dash, the DIC said Service Brake System. Now my car is stuck in an underground parking garage and it wont start.
I proceed to check a few things like fuses, battery terminals. I even replaced the ignition switch since it was a very cheap part to replace that everyone seems to point too but i get the same result. crank but no start. i thought about the fuel pump as i don't hear it come on when the key is turned to the on position but them what throws me off is the the Service Brake System msg that I've never seen before. I am not getting any SES codes, haven't scanned for ABS codes. Does the Service Brake System alert prevent the car from starting? that is whats keeping me from dropping the gas tank to check the pump. Im not getting pressure off the nipple so it seems like the pump is not turning on, but not sure if its a pump issue or its related to the Service Brake System message. The wisdom of the wise men is greatly appreciated.

 

[IllogicTC]

When a whole ton of stuff goes ape like that, my first thought would be that the serial data bus line got screwed up somewhere. I'm unsure of how it's routed through the vehicle physically, I could be way off, that's just my hypothesis. If they went all-out with the interior detailing, check the fuses in the rear fuse block, check the module next to the rear fuse block, that's the BCM, to make sure the connectors are properly seated. The first thing that comes to mind is that somewhere in their washing process if a wire is run in a position where pressure on the carpet or floor could move it, it may have been jostled or something.

Did they do an underhood detailing, too? check that all three connections for the PCM are still properly seated and no water entered the harnesses. I don't know what else to check, so I'm starting with stuff that's free to check and again I may be way off base.

 

[IllogicTC]

Also, I found a thread reporting a bunch of the same issues you have. http://gmtnation.com/f23/wierd-electrical-issue-lots-stuff-stopped-working-today-3523/

Have a read through it, has plenty of info on things to check. In particular there's a data link splice pack hidden under a carpet flap under the rear seat. If they went all out and cleaned under the seats, may have messed with the line. There's also the potential for a certain ground connection (identified in the thread linked) to have poor connection which makes this happen, too.

 

[92s10blzr]

engine bay was not touched due to fear that something like this would happen. That for your response, i totally forgot about the rear fuse box. i will certainly check on that. as for the line under the carpet flap in the rear seat, did you mean in the 3rd row seat or in the middle where the rear fuse box is? also thanks for the additional link. i will read on that now.

 

[IllogicTC]

Pretty sure it's in the middle. It may have some sort of cover protecting the splice pack, I don't know. Take a gander through that thread, checking serial data lines and tightening ground connections is absolutely free, and if the fix is free it's a good fix to me with any luck you'll be driving it home instead of getting it towed to a shop.

 

[BRomanJr]

engine bay was not touched due to fear that something like this would happen. That for your response, i totally forgot about the rear fuse box. i will certainly check on that. as for the line under the carpet flap in the rear seat, did you mean in the 3rd row seat or in the middle where the rear fuse box is? also thanks for the additional link. i will read on that now.

Moisture/water/cleaner may have gotten into either of the front door modules, (DDM PDM). There was a TSB?/Recall? on these failing due to moisture intrusion.

Check all functions on both modules, try unplugging both to see if it will start.

There is a security message that is transmitted on the communication bus (serial data lines) during cranking and if any modules corrupt the bus, it will not start.

 

[92s10blzr]

I unplugged the harnesses from both front doors (left/right) and still didnt turn on. I found the bus links (front/rear) that were mentioned but i honestly didn't know what to do with them aside from removing the tip/cover with the blades. I tried the front bus with the cover removed and the DIC displayed unknown driver and cranks but no start. I checked the rear bus with cover removed and still result. i checked mega buss link in front fuse box that feeds the rear fuse box and it was good as were all the fuses in the rear box. tested with a meter. however i did notice that when the key is turned to start the engine, a relay "RAP" clicks. i tried removing the relay and trying again but still no start. I might be checking the 2 bus links incorrectly, please advise as to how to check on the buss links. thank you wise men, for your help.

 

[IllogicTC]

Without thousand-dollar equipment, really the main thing to check on the bus splice packs was to make sure the cover was secured and no water intruded.

Have you checked out that ground? I know there's one that is a semi-common problem up toward the front. On the passenger side, where the foot well curves into the center console under the climate controls, there's a bit of carpet that's screwed in. I believe under there you will find a ground, has a loop that's bolted into the body metal, and on the other end of the loop is a connector with a bunch of ground (black) wires running into it. Clean and reseat, couldn't hurt, and would be one less thing that could be the issue.

If you knew anyone with a Tech II, they can patch in and try connecting to all the modules to see if there's any codes set. The modules can store codes locally that won't necessarily set off the check engine light, these codes are prefixed with a U I believe (there may be some other scan tools that can pull these codes, I'm not sure) and can give indications as to the status of the data bus. Usually suspicious behavior from other modules will be noted as a specific code, or sometimes you'll just get the "generic trouble" code pulled.

With a Tech II, a person can try to establish contact with any given module through the serial line. A failure to establish connection with one or more modules could tell tons about what's going on, but then again a Tech II is crazy expensive so if you don't have elbows rubbed in the right places you'll either have to forego access to it or pay a place with a Tech II to try pulling the codes.

 

[92s10blzr]

havent checked the ground you mentioned. I forgot about that. tomorrow as the envoy is still sitting in the parking garage. i will be getting it towed tomorrow, wether it be home or to dealer thats around the corner from my job. are those Tech II scanners dealer only tools or is it available for local auto shops as well?

 

[budwich]

probably the best chance you have of getting things going is to attack the "no fuel pressure" issue. You can try spraying in some "quick start" to see if the engine will run / start. This may tell you if you ONLY have an electrical / mechanical issue with fueling or even deeper electrical issues. IF it starts a bit, you can then go from there tracing thru the fuelling circuitry with a meter checking conditions along the way.

I have "witnessed" a few "detailers" that were somewhat "robust" with "shampooing"... actually more of a "douse and vacuum"... this method maybe OK for some cars but for the TB with fusing / cabling along the rear floor area, its a pretty bad technique.... :-(

Anyways, I would hope you get thru this without significant costs.

 

[92s10blzr]

so i got the envoy towed to my mechanic on saturday morning. got a call this morning that he got the truck running but that it was miss-firing off of cylinder 1 (coil needed replacing) and fuel regulator was leaking, which i knew about before this whole drama started. i asked what was wrong and how he got it started. he said that there wasn't any power being sent to the fuel pump relay, which he did demonstrate while i was there friday, but still didn't know the cause of it. first thing he said was that the computer wasn't sending the signal to the relay and it could be a computer problem but said to give him time to truly determine that. so in this morning's call, he said that what he found was that under the front fuse box (the one with the questionable relay) there was a fuse(or fusible link) that lead to the relay and it was no good. once replaced, it fired up right away. thats what i was told over the phone, i havent picked up the envoy yet. he was waiting for coil and regulator to replace it. has anyone heard of such a fuse or fusible link under the front fuse box? im also wondering how much is this going to cost me

 

[92s10blzr]

I picked up the care yesterday. When i arrived at the shop, it was already on. took it for a test drive, and ran like a champ. later that day when i got off of work, i went to turn on the truck and on first try, it cranks 3-4 times and didnt start. took off the key and re-tried to turn it on, same thing 3-4 cranks and nothing. I thought crap,not again. tried it again and this time it fired up. Now i notice that when the truck sits for a while, and i go to start it, it takes a couple of key strokes to fire up. once it fires up it runs fine. today when i turned on the A/C i noticed in a stop that the idle dropped to almost 300 then the compressor kicks in, then jumps to 1200 and the car fills like it wants to take off, then goes back to 650. and when the compressor kicks in the same thing happens. I turned off the A/C right away cause it felt like it was going to stall on me. I didnt want to try the A/C while driving cause i was afraid of something else was going to happen. What can cause the idle to jump around when i turn on the A/C?

 

[The_Roadie]

What can cause the idle to jump around when i turn on the A/C?

Absolutely classic issue that all new owners have to learn about. The shop disconnected the battery, and this caused the PCM to lose its memory about how to deal with your dirty throttle body. The PCM can adapt slowly over time to a dirtier and dirtier throttle body, but can't recover from a sudden loss of memory from a discharged, swapped, or disconnected battery.

You have to spend $5 on a can of spray throttle body cleaner and use the Article on this site to remove the throttle body and clean the BACK of the throat and butterfly valve. When you reconnect the battery after THAT cleaning, and drive around for a half hour stop and go, it will behave like new.

 

[The_Roadie]

has anyone heard of such a fuse or fusible link under the front fuse box?

No. What did he specifically say he did on the invoice?

 

[IllogicTC]

I see no such fuse/fusible link. There is a dark green wire which runs from the PCM into the underhood fuse block, through Pin A11 on C1. After it goes through the relay, it leaves the underhood fuse block via pin F3 on C1, to be grounded out at ground G107 on the right-rear of the engine.

The relay itself is relay #41. The power to be switched on an off by the relay comes from ECM B, a 20A fuse in position 10 which stays hot at all times. Note that if this fuse is blown, the PCM would be missing out on its power supply too and that would give some very obvious signs of a bad fuse (as in, nothing involving PCM works).

The output from the relay is run through pin F3 on C3, a gray wire that runs back to the fuel pump motor, which is grounded on G305 located on the left frame rail.

Again, there does not appear to be any fuse or fusible link underneath the block, and I'm sure the method by which the "hot" is run to the various fuses could be obviously identified as not being such a thing, I would hope.

 

[92s10blzr]

Thanks roadie, i'll remove the throttle body and clean it out, I had suspected that as i stopped by to buy a can of throttle cleaner as I had to do that when i replace the battery a couple of years ago. I brought it up in case it had something to do with a bad (new) regulator. didnt want to chase another ghost issue like the no start that triggered this thread.
IllogicTC, i misunderstood what he told me over the phone, when i picked it up, the mechanic pin pointed the issue being the wire coming from the pcm to under the fuse box leading to the relay like you said. seems like the current wasn't reaching the relay to the relay can send the signal to fire up the pump. he determined that the PCM was sending the relay the signal but it never reach the relay. Relay was good as I tested that before towing to the mechanic. not sure what he did to fix the wire as i didnt ask. i'm assuming he cut the piece off and put in a new one. the invoice said, diagnose no start, replace leaking fuel regulator and coil pak.

 

[IllogicTC]

Just charged for the no-start diagnosis? Must have been a pretty quick job, figured he was already making some cash off the two part replacements and fixed the connection. Doesn't sound like a bad deal

 

[92s10blzr]

hahaha maybe. I paid $400. parts were 200(tax/markup included) and 200 for labor for replacing parts and finding/fixing the problem.
I couldve handled the coil and regulator, but never wouldve found the bad connection to the relay.

 

[92s10blzr]

more problems......so on my way to work, i put a cup in the front cup holder and when i slowed for a stop it turned off on me. it turned back on but i noticed the idle jumping, so then i realized i hit the AC button when placing the cup in the front holder. turned off AC and idle went back to normal. but then as i took off on the green light, the tranny wouldnt up shift to 2nd gear so i let go the gas and i felt it up shift so i continued to go but it seems like it wouldnt shift out of the next gear either, and this time letting go the gas didnt help, it only helps when up shifting from 1st gear. please tell me that its related to the dirty throttle body as it started after it turned off on me. i'm about to turn around and head home while still close, and i'll be removing the throttle body to clean it. hopefully that will work.

 

[The_Roadie]

please tell me that its related to the dirty throttle body as it started after it turned off on me.

I dont' see any possible way it's connected to the dirty throttle body. But just disconnect the battery for the half hour it's going to take to clean the TB, and then see what's up with the tranny.

 

[92s10blzr]

ok. throttle body has been cleaned, and battery has been re-connected. Still took a couple of key strokes fire it up. took it for a spin for a couple of blocks, and transmission still requires me to let go the gas pedal in order to up shift, but it seems like it up shifts to 3rd gear and not second. also confirmed that once it goes into 3rd gear it stays there.


No SES light either. checked for codes, and none stored.

 

[bobdec]

Possibility transmission is in 'FailSafe Mode" . Failsafe uses first and third only and is locked out of second and fourth (OD), normally activated by PCM after a transmission problem. Does your scanner read transmission DTC's.
Just a thought ... Been following this thread since you opened it, really started off in first post as a classic Class 2 data buss symptom..Brakes, windows, gauges, no start . manifested to no Fuel Pump. If there are really no tranny DTC this looks like another gremlin that you have been seeing since the detailing/carpet shampoo.

 

[92s10blzr]

checked the fuel pressure from service port. when the car starts up right away the pressure seems fine. when it doesnt start up right away, the pressure stays low for a few cranks then suddenly jumps up and the car starts. i guess i have replace the pump as the regulator was just replaced last week. as for the tranny, i went out and got me a scanner. got a P0752. pointing to the 1-2 shift solenoid. is that an easy fix, or time for a tranny rebuild?

 

[Texan]

checked the fuel pressure from service port. when the car starts up right away the pressure seems fine. when it doesnt start up right away, the pressure stays low for a few cranks then suddenly jumps up and the car starts. i guess i have replace the pump as the regulator was just replaced last week. as for the tranny, i went out and got me a scanner. got a P0752. pointing to the 1-2 shift solenoid. is that an easy fix, or time for a tranny rebuild?

Does the fuel pump have a relay? I have experienced a corrosion problem with the "weather pack" electrical
connection to the fuel pump underneath the another GM vehicle. Just a thought.

 

[92s10blzr]

yes it has a relay. that is where the issue was in the first place, earlier in this thread. once that was fixed, other problems came about.

 

[92s10blzr]

any recommendations on the pump and tranny solenoid? is it a delco or delphi pump/solenoid? part number(s) would be awesome.


so the tranmission mechanic said he would charge be $250 if its the sensor for the solenoid, which i assume, is the eletrical protion, and 350 if its the actual selonoid. should i assume that he means replacing the actual valve inside the valve body ?

 

[budwich]

It would appear that your problems weren't totally solved with the first "$400".... :-( If you look back at your first post, you said that your issues started with "detailing". I don't think they would have gone into your transmission area and did anything... there isn't much detailing in there... Most likely your issues continue to be electrically orientated ... most likely due to water ingression into areas where it shouldn't be. You need to check the appropriate areas with a METER to see if you are getting appropriate voltages and grounds happening.... or you could pay someone else... :-(

 

[92s10blzr]

any particular spot that i should start on? My main concern right now is the transmission. any tips and tricks would be greatly appreciated.

 

[bobdec]

Here is a description.. P0752 GMC 1-2 Shift Solenoid Valve Performance - No Second or Third Gear OBDII Engine Light Trouble Code | Engine-Codes.com . PCM determined Tranny was not in correct gear. W/o a lift it's a messy, but relatively easy job to replace the solenoid, search around on 4L60E 1-2 shift solenoid. The job entails replacing filter when you are in there , plus gasket and a gallon or more of fluid. Couple of hours work if you are a DIY with jacks and stands. I'm just hoping this in not another electrical gremlin..

 

[92s10blzr]

I read a similar article on the code lat night and saw a few youtube videos point out the 2 solenoids that you mentioned and you're right, those solenoids are cheap so I'll go ahead and do both. I can handle the oil and filter part, but from the videos that I saw last night, they were all transmissions that have already been removed from the vehicle. I'll search the forum to see if there isn't a need to remove the tansmission and/or valve body to replace the solenoids. Thanks for the info everyone. I'll update after replacing both solenoids.

 

[budwich]

any particular spot that i should start on? My main concern right now is the transmission. any tips and tricks would be greatly appreciated.

Although, the "tranny issue" might seem like an "obvious", again, I would go back to what you posted... was your tranny an issue before the detailing? No???

What areas? all electrical areas... there is no "silver bullet". Your "detailing friends" did you no favors cleaning your carpet area in and around the fuse box. By any chance, did they "wash" your engine compartment also? ... :-(

Anyways, the simplest problem you will likely have success with is the one dealing with fueling. You need to understand why your pump is running some times and not others... look at the circuitry and understand what isn't happening when you get no pump and what is happening when you get the pump / fuel pressure. Those "clues" will likely lead to an electrical area that needs attention.

Further, you are focusing on the "one code" from the tranny... but what are the chances that there are other codes associated with the tranny that you are "not seeing" for what ever reason (ie. code reader isn't working correctly, whatever,... actually most readers can't read tranny codes so that might be a further clue). Anyways, if there are other codes, maybe you don't have a "tranny issue" but an electrical issue that happens to be affecting those circuits. Just a guess based on your "unhappy experience" to date with detailing... :-(

 

[92s10blzr]

I hear you budwich, but unfortunately, the carwash was one of those, "we are not responsible" type of businesses, signs are big and noticeable. I just thought since its been around for such a long time, then there shouldn't be a problem. Just my bad luck when i wanted to give some TLC to the envoy.

For the pump. when i did a pressure test, the pressure was slowing leaking, but very slowly. also, when i go to turn on the car in the morning, i turn the key to the ON position like 3 times first before attempting to fire it up, and so far its been 100% accurate when starting the engine. times when i'm in a hurry, and just crank, it just does that, crank.

For Transmission. The tech said that the oil seems a little burnt as well. this tranny shop is not the same shop that fixed the electrical porblem, nor was it recommended by the first mechanic. this is someone that i've gone to in the past with my S10 Blazers with practically the same tranny model. No other codes come out, and the tranny tech used his own scanner when he check it. however, he did say that he really can't just give me an answer to what the problem is as he wants to pull the solenoid and test it to make sure that it really is bad, or if there is no current going to it from the harness.

 

[BRomanJr]

I hear you budwich, but unfortunately, the carwash was one of those, "we are not responsible" type of businesses, signs are big and noticeable. I just thought since its been around for such a long time, then there shouldn't be a problem. Just my bad luck when i wanted to give some TLC to the envoy.

For the pump. when i did a pressure test, the pressure was slowing leaking, but very slowly. also, when i go to turn on the car in the morning, i turn the key to the ON position like 3 times first before attempting to fire it up, and so far its been 100% accurate when starting the engine. times when i'm in a hurry, and just crank, it just does that, crank.

For Transmission. The tech said that the oil seems a little burnt as well. this tranny shop is not the same shop that fixed the electrical porblem, nor was it recommended by the first mechanic. this is someone that i've gone to in the past with my S10 Blazers with practically the same tranny model. No other codes come out, and the tranny tech used his own scanner when he check it. however, he did say that he really can't just give me an answer to what the problem is as he wants to pull the solenoid and test it to make sure that it really is bad, or if there is no current going to it from the harness.

That Transmission Shop sounds good, wanting to do the proper testing before doing part swaps.

Can't help wondering...
When did the transmission problem start?
After the car wash or after you had repairs done under the fuse box?
Did they damage something when working on your starting problem?

 

[budwich]

I don't think you quite understand. I am not asking that you go and make your "detailer" responsible for fixing your problems, I am saying that "detailer work" is unlikely to go and do anything to your transmission as part of their work. So, "attacking" a tranny problem (internal one) would be a somewhat unlikely problem that isn't related to an overall electrical problem (s) that they appeared to "trigger".... so focus on the electrical first. That said, the pump working / not working seems like a fairly simple problem to look at electrically and if your luck turns, you might come across some "commonality" such that your tranny issue gets addressed or gets additional information confirming / resolving things... maybe. OR you could keep going spending money on addressing each issue one at a time at "mechanic's rates".
Of course, this is assuming that there were no tranny or other issues before the "detailing"... maybe not a good assumption on my part.

PS. Actually, you probably want to provide a bit more history about your vehicle both in terms of repairs and maintenance and overall mileage and such.

 

[92s10blzr]

It is a.....
2003 Envoy XL
133k
Tranny oil due for change, last time i changed it was at 65-70k, dont quite remember.
No issues or repairs done aside from motor mounts which was a year ago and plug change at 100k everything else is pretty much original, this before the detail.

after the detail......
1.) unknown driver for the intial day of the wash, next day, everthing worked normally.
2.) no start happened about a 1 1/2 after the wash.
2.) no start got fixed,left with delayed start and erractic idle
3.) 3 days later, before cleaning out throttle body for erractic idle, car turned off pulling out a store parking lot.
4.) As I headed home to remove/clean the throttle body. that is when I noticed the transmission issue.
5.) Check fuel pressure and the pressure leaks slowly. checked for codes with 2 different scanners and came up with the same code. P0752

The thing is, the carpet was dried out within 2 days of the wash. i didnt see when they did so i dont know how much water was used for the crapet. it just seems odd that these issues come up almost 2 weeks later. im having a hard time grasping that. I'm not very electrical savy, other than checking voltage with a meter, but i am a regular DYI when it comes to repairs. im not trying to say anyone is wrong or anything. i'm just trying to get some pointers on where to start checking. I'm told check your electrical, ok, but where do i start is my question. really guys, i do appreciated all the help i'm getting from all of you, dont think that i'm being one of those pesky guys that think that you're wrong. I appreciate all your replies. thanks again.

 

[92s10blzr]

dealer checked it. transmission has internal problem, and wants $900 to open it up. fuel module is bad and neeed to replace it. $571 for fuel model alone, $1120 to replace.

they checked with Tech II scanner and no electrical issues were found.

 

[budwich]

wow.... I take it back. I think you should thank the "wash guys"... without their "work", you probably never would have found all these things and perhaps would have been stranded or worse..... very sad.... something is amiss but hopefully you get things "happy" again without bankrupting yourself.

I guess I have a problem with a few "lines" in the story. One of the obvious ones is you had the regulator replaced cause of an issue (how was that determined) and yet after the replacement, the repair person didn't see an issue with the fuel pump... hmmm. Again, good luck in your journey, I hope it ends successful.