Considering 2019 Tahoe

ComputernerdBD

Original poster
Member
Aug 24, 2014
189
Good day everyone, been a while but still in the GMT family. I have been resisting family pressure to buy Toyota and investigating buying a 2019 Tahoe and then moving my 2007 Trailblazer as my second vehicle. Wanted to ask a couple multipart questions:

-6 speed is the way to go for any of these, correct? I have heard alot of issues with the 10 speed as it is too complex. Is that the 6L80E and those are more reliable than the 4L60E?
-The one I am looking at has the max trailering package with 3.42 gears, low range and a trans cooler. Is that similar to the PCM of NC cooler they sell for the Trailblazer (which I have) or would it be wise to consider a larger external cooler beyond what is installed for longer trans life and in case I tow? I have 103k on my Trailblazer, 135k on my Jimmy both on original trans both with frequent fluid changes with Dex6 (with a leak on the Trailblazer from the bellhousing) and want to make any new one I get to last about double that.
-Has anyone disabled their Onstar system and what are the implications to the nav system or any other onboard systems? On my Trailblazer, it was a simple disconnect the module under the back seat but I hear it is more involved on the Tahoes?
-Any recommendations on items to inspect before buying?
 

Mike534x

Member
Apr 9, 2012
887
I can't speak much for the transmissions on the newer models, but the 6 speed is pretty solid as its been out the longest and has had time to get all its kinks worked out. The 10 speed is still a bit new, and I "think" its relatively the same to the one found in the newer Expeditions (GM/Ford worked on it).


If the build sheet lists the max trailering package, then you do get an aux tranny cooler. I'm not sure how its quality is versus the one PCM of NC sells but it should be a considerable step up from what the typical factory config is.

As for the OnStar, it might be better to just leave it be and not mess with it. Reason being is that these modules are more integrated into each other, then they have in the past. The MyLink Nav system is tied into OnStar, how much though I can't say. But they do rely on each other to function, as I think the Nav System utilizes the OnStar antennas and GPS (for remote lock out/remote start).


They're still pretty new, but just check for anything you would normally look at on any new vehicle purchase. Fluids, any kind of odd looking body work, check every electronic for functionality, and look into a 3rd party powertrain warranty.

One thing to note, these newer V8's GM uses, do have issues with carbon build up (check out YouTube), so just run a bottle of Techron or Seamfoam in the tank every couple thousand miles. Its more to do with the GDI system they went to back in 2015. I'm not sure what the stats are like on the 2019+ AFM system, but dropped lifters are still a thing thats seen on these engines. So I would suggest a RANGE adapter that you can plug in to disable AFM, and it can be safely removed should it ever go into the dealer for any kind of work. Its more to save your rear, in case the dealer tries denying any kind of repair.
 

littleblazer

Member
Jul 6, 2014
9,265
Max tow is like the 800 tow package. Built into the radiator and then an external one too iirc. The mid size trucks use an entirely external cooler.

Disabling onstar would be difficult. You are better trying to block the antenna instead but I believe the newer ones use the same one for sat radio...

6l80e is fine. Been in the HD trucks since 10. Its a beefed up 4l80e.

For the carbon build ups, no in fuel treatment will help. Its direct injection and the buildup occurs on the backside of the valve.

Mom has an 18 LT. I hate it with a passion. It drives like a boat. Its gutless. I can't get comfortable in it and visibility downright sucks. It feels under dampened to me. Stiffer shocks would fix it probably but the torque management on the throttle blows. The 6.2 version is fine though. Anything I've driven with a 5.3 I've been underwhelmed. Thats just me. I don't expect to be putting 300k miles on it like the escalade. Just not happening with all the noises and ticks it already has.

Other than that... literally the same gremlins as any other vehicle. Check everything. If it sounds good. Drives good and looks good... you're fine if the maintenance adds up.
 

Mooseman

Moderator
Dec 4, 2011
25,224
Ottawa, ON
The 6L80E is a solid tranny. One thing I noticed while shopping for a used truck is that when they started equipping them with the 6L80E is the addition of the K5L HD cooling package for towing. Without that extra cooling, you lose some towing ability. With it you get a bigger radiator, stronger fans, engine oil cooler and tranny oil cooler. Look in the owner manual in the towing section and you should see the different gears and the K5L option if they still add it as an option or it's just part of the base truck.

And if you're wondering why they're just putting in 3.42 gears, it's because the 6 and 10 speed trannys have deeper (higher numerically) low gears. Kinda like having 4.10 gears in an older truck.

I do find the extra tranny coolers they add is small so a larger one wouldn't hurt especially if you tow a lot.
 

gmcman

Member
Dec 12, 2011
4,656
FWIW, I'm a big fan of GM, have also wanted a Tahoe for quite some time. When the wife was done with the van, we looked at the 2019 Tahoe as well as the Highlander, she likes the Toyota and I managed to get her to look at the Tahoe also.

Once I tried to sit in the 3rd row, it was quite the mood kill, GM failed miserably and I wouldn't even want my kids to endure the 3rd row, your knees are almost in your chest.

The Suburban is much different being longer, the floor where your feet rest is on a lower portion of the floorpan and is far more comfortable.

The Highlander was a different animal than the Tahoe. I'm 6' and can set the seats to fit in all 3 rows without my knees touching the seat backs.

When it comes to trips, storage is limited if you need any of the two seats in the 3rd row and we used a 22 cubic foot cargo bag on a hitch mounted rack.

The new Tahoe has independent rear suspension and supposedly has better 3rd row seating comfort.

We went with the Highlander but learned later that when you get a check engine light for any emission related codes, you lose the AWD, so just some food for thought. The wife lost the AWD, with the kids in a snowstorm because the O2 sensor heater circuit on one bank wasn't working. So never again for us. Next vehicle will be WELL thought out. Thats not just the Highlander, but other Toyota's as well as other manufacturers.
 

Sparky

Member
Dec 4, 2011
12,927
Lose AWD because of something totally unrelated? What knucklehead came up with that idea?
 

Mooseman

Moderator
Dec 4, 2011
25,224
Ottawa, ON
GM did it too. You lose cruise control for codes and burnt out brake lights :confused:. Probably something that bean counters told engineers to do to force owners to get their vehicles fixed.
 
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TollKeeper

Supporting Donor
Member
Dec 3, 2011
8,039
Brighton, CO
Toyota is not the manufacture it used to be. It went to main stream, and spent a lot of money to try to keep recalls quiet, and it didnt work. If GM really worked on product quality as much as they say they have, the next generation of Full Sizes are going to be a game changer, especially with the 3.0 litre in line 6 diesel... I already did a mock order, and 52000 for a loaded (non-denali) model, im down for that!
 
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gmcman

Member
Dec 12, 2011
4,656
Lose AWD because of something totally unrelated? What knucklehead came up with that idea?

We also lost AWD going to a soccer tournament when a cam sensor developed a fault. Not that we needed AWD, but still had the "AWD System Disabled" message from it.

I can see how the ECM needs to evaluate everthing to control the AWD system, as it's an automatic style system. But I agree, it makes no sense, even if the system didn't operate at 100% capacity, what good does it do when it's disabled.

With GM, I can select 4HI and it will stay there while losing 3 cylinders and pumping coolant from the tailpipe.

The irony was, I wanted a vehicle where if the wife and kids were somewhere and conditions tanked, they would be in a position where said vehicle would provide a level of security.
 

littleblazer

Member
Jul 6, 2014
9,265
I can agree with the third row too. In the 03 it is still doable... the 18 not so much.
 

ComputernerdBD

Original poster
Member
Aug 24, 2014
189
Thanks everyone for the good information. I ended up finding a 2018 Tahoe Z71 Midnight Edition with only 9k miles which I am picking up on Saturday. Originally I was considering a 2017-2019 slightly used with low miles but after seeing that the 2017 and earlier models had issues including the condenser weld cracks and the 2015/2016 had other problems per CarComplaints (kind of like the 2002-2005 Trailblazer vs later years), I decided to go for something newer. It also appears this vehicle was built after the 8/31/17 cutoff for the brake vacuum pump design and appears this vehicle on GM Owner Center is not under the coverage adjustment or recall for the pump either vs a sample 2017 I also looked at that was not a Midnight Edition. So crossing my fingers that it has the later design and less issues expected.

Judging by the Trailblazers and the other Tahoe generations it seems like it is best practice not to buy the first year or two in a generation. I am going to try to address everyone's comments below but I am a bit restricted by the character limit.

Also investigating what grille guards I can get that would fit a Z71 and also LED lightbars so I can equip the Tahoe better than my Trailblazer (which has a 30" lightbar and 2x 3" cube lights up front and all stock bulbs except headlights replaced with LED).

Luckily for that year the 10 speed was mostly on the Premier which is too nice, has alot of stuff I dont need and the 20/22" wheels I would be concerned about cracking on potholes or curbs. That 6 speed was a key decision maker on which one I got. I would have preferred a 6.2 but that isn't in the Z71 and normally paired with the 10 speed.... No thanks and for what I use it for a 5.3L is ample power.

I was told the Z71 also has one (trans cooler) but going to find out about getting a large one behind the grille anyway if it is easy and low risk to install if this truck has a better layout than the Trailblazer which was a pain to get a cooler in there.

As for Onstar, going to have to figure that one out even if it means just removing the fuse at the expense of losing NAV or removing the LTE radio manually or even just the antenna connector at the VCIM/headliner at the minimum, I already told the dealer not to activate it so one step in the right direction but not enough. Not to start any arguments about Onstar and privacy but from my point of view, with the new features the newer trucks have especially with potential means for a private company or bad actor to make unauthorized changes within modules that can disable the truck I own, allow it to be stolen or cause it to lose control and cause an accident, it is not just a privacy and security concern relevant to previous models at that point but also a reliability and safety concern as well with what can be done over the air now. That has basically root access to a network that is the core of a 3 ton machine I own for which I have minimal to no control over who has access or who is permitted to make changes and what those changes are. Physical access to the OBD port is easy, dealer mechanics are not allowed to work on my vehicles, now to close remote access. On my Trailblazer that was too easy of a removal.... The above reason is key to why I would never buy a Tesla.

Factory warranty is still intact for another year/25k, so good to go there. Based on the photos I have seen in detail it is a 9k mile truck in mint condition.

Yea, I saw that with the GDI but unfortunately that is the norm nowadays correct....? I use Techron already in both of my other trucks.

Backside of the valve - I was seeing some GDI intake treatments in stores that use a hose but wouldn't those cause damage? If PCV fumes recirculate to the intake would Royal Purple help if it aerosolizes or is that just fantasy?

I ordered the Range adapter and will install it when I pick the truck up before I drive it back home which is about 600 miles so will be a good test drive on that.


"800 tow package"? Also for midsize I thought trucks like the Trailblazer/S10 it is entirely in the radiator? Or do you mean like the newer Colorado?

6L80E - GM did build those up to fix alot of the common issues with the 4L60E, correct? I have a pump seal leak on my Trailblazer and I have heard the horror stories with the sunshell and the 3-4 clutches.....

I am not seeing K5L RPO code but this is on the ad for the truck, but I can see the difference in tow ratings. I was told by the dealer it can take the higher weights that 3.42 gears allow but moot if the GVWR is not uprated for that because it lacks the air suspension and other features.

Cooling, auxiliary transmission oil cooler, heavy-duty air-to-oil

Cooling, external engine oil cooler, heavy-duty air-to-oil integral to driver side of radiator

Z71 MIDNIGHT EDITION includes (Z71) Off-Road Package, (NZZ) Skid Plate Package, (REG) 18" Black painted aluminum wheels, (RI8) P265/65R18SL MT 114S blackwall Duratrac tires, (BVV) Black tubular assist steps, (T3U) front fog lamps, (UD5) Front and Rear Park Assist, (V76) recovery hooks, (GU6) 3.42 rear axle ratio, (NQH) Autotrac active 2-speed transfer case, (B5N) Z71-specific rubber floor mats with logo, (JHD) Hill Descent Control, (K47) high-capacity air cleaner, (P3H) front and rear Black bowties, unique Z71 Midnight grille, Z71 front lower Black fascia, Z71-specific front sill plates, Z71 Decal on cluster, Z71 pillar and liftgate badge and (VQQ) Black roof rack cross rails, LPO. (Requires 4WD model and exterior color (GBA) Black. Not available with (ST7) LT Midnight Edition, (PDR) LT Signature Package, (NHT) Max Trailering Package, (B85) bright bodyside moldings, (SFZ) Black bowtie emblems, LPO, (SJA) grille insert, LPO, (RZ9) grille insert, LPO, (VXH) Chrome assist step kit, LPO, (VQK) molded splash guards, LPO, (VQY) Chrome recovery hooks, LPO or (SDA) Black recovery hooks, LPO.) (WJP)


Losing AWD for something basic is stupid, I agree but then how else would the service departments make a quick buck if people are compelled to bring them in? I stopped going to service departments years ago after their tactics when warranties were no longer an issue on my trucks or if it wasn't for a recall. I remember too well when I had a valve spring break on the Trailblazer at 25k miles which caused a misfire code. They wanted 3100 for a new head and said two cylinders have no compression. I declined the repair and drove it slowly a few miles up the road to my preferred shop. One valve spring and $800 later with even smaller scope of work than expected and they did alot of other detail stuff around that too which GM never would have (including the intake gasket and the bolt grommets, even cleaned up and painted the valve cover) and it was done quickly.

When I did take the Trailblazer in for a recall repair on the window switch, I told them only the recall repair is authorized and don't even think of even checking the alignment on it (which at the time was manual when you drive in to check the car in), I don't want wiper blades, washer fluid or air filters (K&N CAI) as I won't be paying a cent today. Now they have a machine that automatically checks tires and alignment right at the entry door and snaps a photo of the license plate so you can't even opt out of them checking it in the first place so then you have to opt out of the sale and scare tactics. More like erosion of vehicle owner right to choose. Small town independent repair shops are critical for older vehicles especially keeping them well maintained and safe.
 

m.mcmillen

Member
Apr 29, 2016
554
Wisconsin
6L80E - GM did build those up to fix alot of the common issues with the 4L60E, correct?

The 6L80E is good. I have those in a bunch of Express vans here. The only issue I've seen is that the TCM is prone to fail. I just changed one this week. They're not too bad to do. You have to remove the valve body to get it out but I had it done in a couple hours. You do have to reprogram the TCM after replacing it.
 

Mooseman

Moderator
Dec 4, 2011
25,224
Ottawa, ON
Nice. It should fill your needs quite nicely. Post up some pics and more details once you've picked it up and become acquainted.

For the K5L cooling package, during my searches for a truck, most dealers were like "huh?" and had to get them to take a pic of the RPO sticker. Once you have the truck in front of you, you can confirm it it has the extra cooling parts. Like I said, it might now be part of the base equipment and not a separate option. The owners manual should specify that.
 

ComputernerdBD

Original poster
Member
Aug 24, 2014
189
The 6L80E is good. I have those in a bunch of Express vans here. The only issue I've seen is that the TCM is prone to fail. I just changed one this week. They're not too bad to do. You have to remove the valve body to get it out but I had it done in a couple hours. You do have to reprogram the TCM after replacing it.

Hmm.... Interesting. They fix alot of the mechanical issues but in the process some additional electronic ones.... Fun.



Nice. It should fill your needs quite nicely. Post up some pics and more details once you've picked it up and become acquainted.

For the K5L cooling package, during my searches for a truck, most dealers were like "huh?" and had to get them to take a pic of the RPO sticker. Once you have the truck in front of you, you can confirm it it has the extra cooling parts. Like I said, it might now be part of the base equipment and not a separate option. The owners manual should specify that.

Will do, I will check out the RPO sticker when I get it.


Thanks
 

littleblazer

Member
Jul 6, 2014
9,265
Thanks everyone for the good information. I ended up finding a 2018 Tahoe Z71 Midnight Edition with only 9k miles which I am picking up on Saturday. Originally I was considering a 2017-2019 slightly used with low miles but after seeing that the 2017 and earlier models had issues including the condenser weld cracks and the 2015/2016 had other problems per CarComplaints (kind of like the 2002-2005 Trailblazer vs later years), I decided to go for something newer. It also appears this vehicle was built after the 8/31/17 cutoff for the brake vacuum pump design and appears this vehicle on GM Owner Center is not under the coverage adjustment or recall for the pump either vs a sample 2017 I also looked at that was not a Midnight Edition. So crossing my fingers that it has the later design and less issues expected.

Judging by the Trailblazers and the other Tahoe generations it seems like it is best practice not to buy the first year or two in a generation. I am going to try to address everyone's comments below but I am a bit restricted by the character limit.

Also investigating what grille guards I can get that would fit a Z71 and also LED lightbars so I can equip the Tahoe better than my Trailblazer (which has a 30" lightbar and 2x 3" cube lights up front and all stock bulbs except headlights replaced with LED).

Luckily for that year the 10 speed was mostly on the Premier which is too nice, has alot of stuff I dont need and the 20/22" wheels I would be concerned about cracking on potholes or curbs. That 6 speed was a key decision maker on which one I got. I would have preferred a 6.2 but that isn't in the Z71 and normally paired with the 10 speed.... No thanks and for what I use it for a 5.3L is ample power.

I was told the Z71 also has one (trans cooler) but going to find out about getting a large one behind the grille anyway if it is easy and low risk to install if this truck has a better layout than the Trailblazer which was a pain to get a cooler in there.

As for Onstar, going to have to figure that one out even if it means just removing the fuse at the expense of losing NAV or removing the LTE radio manually or even just the antenna connector at the VCIM/headliner at the minimum, I already told the dealer not to activate it so one step in the right direction but not enough. Not to start any arguments about Onstar and privacy but from my point of view, with the new features the newer trucks have especially with potential means for a private company or bad actor to make unauthorized changes within modules that can disable the truck I own, allow it to be stolen or cause it to lose control and cause an accident, it is not just a privacy and security concern relevant to previous models at that point but also a reliability and safety concern as well with what can be done over the air now. That has basically root access to a network that is the core of a 3 ton machine I own for which I have minimal to no control over who has access or who is permitted to make changes and what those changes are. Physical access to the OBD port is easy, dealer mechanics are not allowed to work on my vehicles, now to close remote access. On my Trailblazer that was too easy of a removal.... The above reason is key to why I would never buy a Tesla.

Factory warranty is still intact for another year/25k, so good to go there. Based on the photos I have seen in detail it is a 9k mile truck in mint condition.

Yea, I saw that with the GDI but unfortunately that is the norm nowadays correct....? I use Techron already in both of my other trucks.

Backside of the valve - I was seeing some GDI intake treatments in stores that use a hose but wouldn't those cause damage? If PCV fumes recirculate to the intake would Royal Purple help if it aerosolizes or is that just fantasy?

I ordered the Range adapter and will install it when I pick the truck up before I drive it back home which is about 600 miles so will be a good test drive on that.


"800 tow package"? Also for midsize I thought trucks like the Trailblazer/S10 it is entirely in the radiator? Or do you mean like the newer Colorado?

6L80E - GM did build those up to fix alot of the common issues with the 4L60E, correct? I have a pump seal leak on my Trailblazer and I have heard the horror stories with the sunshell and the 3-4 clutches.....

I am not seeing K5L RPO code but this is on the ad for the truck, but I can see the difference in tow ratings. I was told by the dealer it can take the higher weights that 3.42 gears allow but moot if the GVWR is not uprated for that because it lacks the air suspension and other features.

Cooling, auxiliary transmission oil cooler, heavy-duty air-to-oil

Cooling, external engine oil cooler, heavy-duty air-to-oil integral to driver side of radiator

Z71 MIDNIGHT EDITION includes (Z71) Off-Road Package, (NZZ) Skid Plate Package, (REG) 18" Black painted aluminum wheels, (RI8) P265/65R18SL MT 114S blackwall Duratrac tires, (BVV) Black tubular assist steps, (T3U) front fog lamps, (UD5) Front and Rear Park Assist, (V76) recovery hooks, (GU6) 3.42 rear axle ratio, (NQH) Autotrac active 2-speed transfer case, (B5N) Z71-specific rubber floor mats with logo, (JHD) Hill Descent Control, (K47) high-capacity air cleaner, (P3H) front and rear Black bowties, unique Z71 Midnight grille, Z71 front lower Black fascia, Z71-specific front sill plates, Z71 Decal on cluster, Z71 pillar and liftgate badge and (VQQ) Black roof rack cross rails, LPO. (Requires 4WD model and exterior color (GBA) Black. Not available with (ST7) LT Midnight Edition, (PDR) LT Signature Package, (NHT) Max Trailering Package, (B85) bright bodyside moldings, (SFZ) Black bowtie emblems, LPO, (SJA) grille insert, LPO, (RZ9) grille insert, LPO, (VXH) Chrome assist step kit, LPO, (VQK) molded splash guards, LPO, (VQY) Chrome recovery hooks, LPO or (SDA) Black recovery hooks, LPO.) (WJP)


Losing AWD for something basic is stupid, I agree but then how else would the service departments make a quick buck if people are compelled to bring them in? I stopped going to service departments years ago after their tactics when warranties were no longer an issue on my trucks or if it wasn't for a recall. I remember too well when I had a valve spring break on the Trailblazer at 25k miles which caused a misfire code. They wanted 3100 for a new head and said two cylinders have no compression. I declined the repair and drove it slowly a few miles up the road to my preferred shop. One valve spring and $800 later with even smaller scope of work than expected and they did alot of other detail stuff around that too which GM never would have (including the intake gasket and the bolt grommets, even cleaned up and painted the valve cover) and it was done quickly.

When I did take the Trailblazer in for a recall repair on the window switch, I told them only the recall repair is authorized and don't even think of even checking the alignment on it (which at the time was manual when you drive in to check the car in), I don't want wiper blades, washer fluid or air filters (K&N CAI) as I won't be paying a cent today. Now they have a machine that automatically checks tires and alignment right at the entry door and snaps a photo of the license plate so you can't even opt out of them checking it in the first place so then you have to opt out of the sale and scare tactics. More like erosion of vehicle owner right to choose. Small town independent repair shops are critical for older vehicles especially keeping them well maintained and safe.
Sorry, 800 tow package refers to the setup used in the 02-07 trucks. Radiator trans cooler with a supplemental external one as well.
 

ComputernerdBD

Original poster
Member
Aug 24, 2014
189
So I got the truck and got it back to upstate NY earlier this week. Really nice, alot better than I expected actually. Originally I wanted to find a blue one but this Midnight Edition blew away all of my expectations. Only has 10K miles on it now.

Found out the RPO codes is now in QR format which was interesting....

AG2 AN3 ARL AXP AYQ CJ4 C6A DL3 EF7 FHO GBA H2U IO6 I18 JD9 L83 MAH MYC NP5 NUF RC4 REG RI8 RUF TC2 UDD UQA U2K V8D WMJ X88 Z71 1LT 4AA 6GP 7GP 8X2 9X2,8555,,,,

Gas mileage was really really nice for a vehicle of its size, and I was getting right around 20 even at higher speeds (cruise control on these is alot easier to use) and that yielded a range of about 400+ miles on a tank so my 6 hour trip I commonly take for work that was pushing the Trailblazer beyond its range limitations I can now do nonstop with room to spare if I wanted to. The Range adapter was money well spent and I see exactly what happens transitioning between V4 and V8 now with the shudder. It was on all 8 cylinders full time and improved on the mileage it seems.

For the trans cooler - No external cooler behind the grille, and it was running around 195 on the way home which was about 12+ hours over a couple days. So looks like I will have to invest in one especially before towing anything but then will have to look into the aero shutters blocking the airflow.... Maybe a cooler with a fan to better protect it? I want the powertrain to last at least 200k without any major repairs.

For the Onstar - After some further deliberation on this matter and while I was changing out the cabin air filter (long story but it was original and I can detect that....), I found the antenna connectors just above the panel, and determined the magenta one is the one for the cellular antenna. Originally I did the brown one and it took out GPS to the NAV but then backed that change out. So the cellular antenna is now disconnected and I see no ill effects other than if I push the Onstar button it flashes red and never completes the call and therefore is off their network which is what I wanted in the first place. It was never activated as per my request to the dealer. I realize if I start pulling modules I start making holes in the GM-LAN topology and disabling other things so simply islanding it from their network is a better alternative vs pulling the whole module in the Trailblazer. As an IT guy I can appreciate the ability to get unlimited wifi with a stronger antenna than a cell phone and remote access to the truck but the IS side of things tells me that is not an acceptable tradeoff for network security and possible malicious changes to the truck's network.

Couple quirks I noticed -

1. Ironically the brake booster vacuum pump was an item I was concerned about based on the build date and it appears it does not hold vacuum more than 4-6 hours after engine shutdown but otherwise brakes and stops just fine. Is that normal on these to start with?

2. I noticed behind the headlight bulbs it looks like there is black duct tape covering them. Is that factory?

3. Is there a trick to getting the oil and trans dipsticks out? They are obviously extra long and hard to manipulate on this.

Thanks
 

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