Cam phaser angle with 2002 4.2L

gmcman

Original poster
Member
Dec 12, 2011
4,673
Reading about the exhaust cam phaser angles, I believe it will alter the cam angle about 23 deg max.

Watching this data field in my buddies 05 4.2L, his reaches 23 ish deg but mine seems to max at 19, with an occasional peak at 20 which is momentary.

Here's a 2 1/2 min clip of me starting from a light, then a few accel/decel events including WOT.

Maybe the 02 didn't change the angle as much as later years, but curious to what you think.

 

Mooseman

Moderator
Dec 4, 2011
26,228
Ottawa, ON
I know there was a change in part numbers for the phaser in later years so maybe they also changed the max angle? Just changing the phaser would probably not do anything without changing the programming for it in the PCM.
 
  • Like
Reactions: gmcman

TJBaker57

Lifetime VIP Donor
Member
Aug 16, 2015
3,353
Colorado
Great, thanks!


I've recorded a couple of drives and I do not see any actual angles greater than a little more than 12 degrees! The Car Scanner app is great for recording and reviewing data. Only once have I seen a momentary spike in cam solenoid percentage to 97.66%, mine seems to be normally between 46 to 50 %. And even with that momentary 97.66% solenoid the desired and actual cam angles didn't change.

Looking again at my equation(s) for Cam angles it looks like I could refine them a little. At 11 degrees from the Tech 2 my equation is coming up to 10.46 degrees. I think I rounded off a factor. These were some of my early PID equations, I think I have a better understanding now and maybe can improve the accuracy a little.

One thing I wonder that may have a bearing on my lower angles,,, what factors are used by the PCM to determine cam angle? Is MAP one of them? I'm at 8000 feet and my MAP will never go over about 10.7 psi due the decreased atmosperic pressure up here. Could this limit the cam angles I will see vs the flatlanders at nearer to sea level??

I'll be gathering more data today and will update with any new information.
 

mrrsm

Lifetime VIP Donor
Supporting Donor
Member
Oct 22, 2015
8,344
Tampa Bay Area
The problem here is that trying to either reach or maintain any Specific Cam Phaser position to establish a steady-state helical or mechanical Angle of Advance or Retard of the Exhaust Camshaft is next to impossible. This is because unlike any and all other Atlas 4,5,6 Cylinder sensors… the Cam Phaser position varies at any given moment of operation and is directly subject to the Infinite Variability of Engine Oil Pressure in the Early Model Atlas Motors.

These changing conditions with the CPAS are too random to be able to nail down to a rational quantity useful in designing a PID beyond knowing what the Cam Phaser Angle looks like at any given moment. This measurement is NOT the same thing as knowing what the ACTUAL Exhaust Camshaft Position is with any precision. So if the idea is to design a PID that can extract what THAT specific measurement is… the CPS information would probably be the more relevant of the two.

The secondary beneficial effect of the Cam Phaser acting like an EGR at Low RPM is probably the biggest concern to the PCM. The improvements in the Power and Torque are likewise needing Exhaust Camshaft adjustments in the upper RPM band. But, another ‘variable’ at play affecting this will be the presence of a Badly Worn Timing Set which can confuse the entire set up, Once the ACTUAL position of the Crankshaft cannot be determined in relation to the EXPECTED Position of the Camshaft, this “reference decay” will come into play as yet another unpredictable variable confusing things.

ALL GM Atlas 4.2L Engines have unique and different kinds of Wear and Tear patterns on the Rotating Assembly where More or Less Oil Pressure might be available depending upon the Engine Condition and Performance in all RPM Ranges affected by the position of the Cam Phaser. What that turns out to be, moment by moment, will largely depend upon the Type, Viscosity, Cleanliness and Availability of the Motor Oil being circulated under variable dynamic pressure.

The ability of that Oil to travel up from the bottom of the Crankcase vacuumed into and through the Oil Pick Up Screen and then being cycled through the Gerotor Oil Pump depends upon its freedom from obstruction and blockage. The Old Adage, “You Can’t Make Bricks Without Straw…” definitely applies where the Oil Pressure of the entire system is compromised by this reality… and the diminished performance of the Cam Phaser will happen as a result of this reduction in Oil Pressure in ALL RPM Ranges.

Additionally, If the engine suffers from Excessive Wear and Tear of the Mains and Con-Rods Bearings, Oil Pressure Bleed Down will occur in the loose gap in between the Crank and Con-Rod bearings and their Journals. How much Motor Oil will be able to pass into and out of the Early Model Helical Design Cam Phaser under Pressure under these conditions is yet another variable to consider.

Whatever the Camshaft Position Actuator Solenoid ATTEMPTS to achieve, moment by moment depends upon so many other factors and variables that will be different from one engine and the next. Therefore a simple measurement cannot be settled upon and used to adjust the PCM Programming CPAS Base Line. Knowing what the ACTUAL POSITION of the Exhaust Cam is within its narrow adjustable band of movement from 0-25 Degrees will be difficult to derive using any “fixed” numbers.

Other than being able to see a a COMPLETE Lack of Change in its position due to a Total Failure of the Cam Phaser... The Question that Begs is: “What purpose does knowing the Cam Phaser Angle Serve?
 
Last edited:

TJBaker57

Lifetime VIP Donor
Member
Aug 16, 2015
3,353
Colorado
The problem here is that trying to either reach or maintain any Specific Cam Phaser position to establish a steady-state helical or mechanical Angle of Advance or Retard of the Exhaust Camshaft is next to impossible.

My intention is to replicate the data as presented by the Tech 2 as accurately as I can. That instrument reports a steady angle however it is limited to whole numbers, I would guess to limit the inevitable fluctuations. The desired angle as represented in the hexadecimal output of the PID does not fluctuate while the actual angle varies as you suspected. This evening I will post a snippet of the raw values to illustrate this.

I have also today observed that under steady-state operation (65mph cruise on open flat highway) the CPAS duty cycle appears to increase during engine warmup while the desired cam angle does not. I suspect oil and engine temps are in play here (mine is a 2002 with an actual oil temp sensor).
 

mrrsm

Lifetime VIP Donor
Supporting Donor
Member
Oct 22, 2015
8,344
Tampa Bay Area
Understood. The early going of how active the CPAS is during warm up probably has a lot to do with it trying to play the "I'm ALSO an EGR Valve" Game. Your results with this PID Design will be very interesting. BOSCH Vetronix should have had YOU on their 1990s Tech 2 Software Design Team, Brother!
 
Last edited:

TJBaker57

Lifetime VIP Donor
Member
Aug 16, 2015
3,353
Colorado
Looking again at my equation(s) for Cam angles it looks like I could refine them a little. At 11 degrees from the Tech 2 my equation is coming up to 10.46 degrees. I think I rounded off a factor.

Well as it turns out I had a slightly different equation on my phone vs what was posted online. The online version is damn near right on. The equation posted in the PIDs thread essentially takes the decimal equivalent of the value returned by the PID and multiplies that by 0.006. This multiplication is the same as dividing by 166.66666.... the correct value that precisely matches the Tech 2 output is to divide by 166.0. In practice at say 12 degrees the error would be roughly 0.04 degrees. Not really a significant difference but I will edit/update the PID thread accordingly.

I still have not witnessed or recorded any cam angles desired or actual over 13, maybe 14 degrees on my 2002 at 8200 feet above sea level!
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: mrrsm

TJBaker57

Lifetime VIP Donor
Member
Aug 16, 2015
3,353
Colorado
This measurement is NOT the same thing as knowing what the ACTUAL Exhaust Camshaft Position is with any precision


I would have to disagree here. The actual position is sensed and reported in the same way the crank position is sensed. If that's accurate enough to get spark timing correct and efficiently run the engine I would have to believe the same electronics can tell where the cam actual position is, via the cam position sensor, no?

Oh, and last night I looked over data from a 15 minute drive with hard accelration, deceleration, etc. The average error between the PCM commanded Cam angle and the PCM sensed Cam Actual angle was 0.08 degrees. That's pretty darned close over a range of operating conditions. My max error was about 2 degrees for a fraction of a second.
 

Chickenhawk

Member
Dec 6, 2011
790
While we are on the topic, can anyone post the Tech 2 screen where one can command cam angle. Some people have reported that 'exercising' the solenoid can sometimes help correct a brief and momentary slow operation when cold, that sets a troublesome code. I have shortened oil life changes, which helped a lot, but I want to try something else. I may even erase the code and try a CASE relearn too.
 

azswiss

Member
May 23, 2021
1,015
Tempe, AZ
Check out page 18 in the attached "GM Tech 2 Paths" document:

Cam Phaser Solenoid – Powertrain > Special Functions > Engine Output Controls
 

Attachments

  • GM_Tech2_Paths.pdf
    1.7 MB · Views: 3

TJBaker57

Lifetime VIP Donor
Member
Aug 16, 2015
3,353
Colorado
@Chickenhawk

Assuming a 4.2 engine it looks like the last item listed under Special Functions/Engine Output Controls/.

The items listed vary by year. (Couldn't find your year in profile or postings)

17347165393923510472424377114920.jpg

17347165793615140914734828448776.jpg
 
  • Like
Reactions: Chickenhawk

Forum Statistics

Threads
23,773
Posts
643,182
Members
19,396
Latest member
gtp2nv

Members Online

No members online now.