An "Opportunity" has arisen, need you guys thoughts

[Daniel644]

OK, so my Trailblazer is an 03 LS with 248k miles and a newish (probably about 30-40k miles now) transmission and if you look in my thread history you will see what came out of my oil filter last year and the struggles i've had trying to sort the lower then it should be fuel mileage and brake issues.

So here is the opportunity, i've got some extended family that just bought a new 2500HD Silverado and they are looking to get rid of their 02 TB LTZ that has like 178-179k miles (it's been in their side of the family since 47k miles), they are giving me first dibs to buy it at the "family price" of what the dealer offered them for trade-in ($1,200), it's Red, so not my favorite color, but it's got the G80 RPO where my LS trim doesn't, it has the 2 tone interior with heated front seats over the cloth interior of mine, but it has 2 or 3 issues, he's been thinking the transmission has been feeling weird from time to time over the last few months and he took it to the dealership who said it's the torque converter, so that would need addressing at a point sooner rather then later and while looking it over I noticed an oil leak, near as I can tell i'm pretty confident it's the front crank seal (only other possibility would be oil pan at just the spot behind the harmonic balancer and not along the sides), it leaks enough that if you leave the panel under the engine off when you park over night you will leave a drip mark in the driveway (but not a puddle) and it has likely been leaking for many years at this level and it has the first gen Harmonic Balancer so all that would need addressing when replacing the seal and I think the water pump may be beginning to leak as it looked damp behind the WP pulley too, but thats no big deal if we are already in there to do the crank seal.

So here's the question, do you think that truck is worth the $1,200 if I gotta pay parts and labor to do the TC (and install the shift kit I've had laying around for a decade that I bought for the firebird I used to have) and the Harmonic Balancer/Front Seal?

and a secondary question, which would you do, a new Torque Converter and install the shift kit or swap transmissions between the 2 trucks? (again if you where paying for the work to be done).

 

[Mike534x]

The price isn't bad for what they're asking, is the LTZ's body/frame in good shape compared to your 03? Depending on the costs, I'd probably just swap the trans honestly. It's already been rebuilt, and I assume some sort of warranty on is on it? If it me, I would do that and just keep the 03 as maybe a parts vehicle (if you have the room to store it).

 

[Daniel644]

@Mike534x my 03 has the typical light surface rust on the frame, the frame on the 02 is still black like it's never seen ice or snow from the parts of it i've seen, both have the typical deformation on the bottom of the frame behind the front wheels where most people jack up the truck to do front tire work, body wise, the 02 has a scratch going along the passenger side rear door and thats the only issue I have seen of the body, the body on mine has 2 dents, one in each passenger door that I got when the front tire slung up a big rock that had washed out into the street from a gravel driveway while I had the running boards off.

My general idea with this would be that I would swap my suspension, exhaust and other mods over to the LTZ and effectively return mine to stock and sell my 03 as a "parts car you can drive home" as I don't have storage for a third car at my house and to recoup some of the costs of the repairs on the 02.

The transmission from mine is outside it's warranty at this point as that was like 8.5 years ago and the replacement warranty was a 3yr. 36k type warranty so thats not a factor, if I got the transmissions swapped it would probably make sense to go ahead and put a torque converter in the one coming out of the 02, if you are already in it for the labor to R&R the trans why not.

 

[Mooseman]

The problem with keeping the original tranny that has a bad TC would be risky as a bad TC usually damages the tranny as it destroys itself. It would have to be inspected very carefully before deciding to keep it and put a new TC in it. It would suck to have to replace the tranny soon after. Or get it rebuilt regardless.

If it's really is in that good shape, I would go for it. Selling your current TB, even as a parts truck, you can recoup some of the costs. You could sell it as a good running truck even with the disclosure of the leak. Too bad you can't keep your newer tranny. Even if you can get the shop to swap them, the labour costs may not be worth it.

 

[Daniel644]

If it's really is in that good shape, I would go for it. Selling your current TB, even as a parts truck, you can recoup some of the costs. You could sell it as a good running truck even with the disclosure of the leak. Too bad you can't keep your newer tranny. Even if you can get the shop to swap them, the labour costs may not be worth it.

The oil leak that looks to be the front crank seal is on the one I would be buying, so it's trans and seal that need to be dealt with, my 03 has the valve cover gasket that needs replacing, or at the very least the seals around the spark plug tubes (which are part of the valve cover gasket kit).

The Labor costs are my biggest concern, knowing the transmission will need to be dealt with before I go driving long distances is frankly the biggest hurdle i'm having on pulling the trigger, 8ish years ago when I had the transmission replaced in mine they charged like $400 in labor for R&R on the unit, not sure what they would charge for a straight swap of the 2 units between trucks.

Basically if we wanted to look at the numbers it's:
02 LTZ $1,200
Trans Swap ??? Min $400+ Materials
Seal Replacement???
Water Pump, Hoses and Belt (and probably thermostat while in there)???
Spark Plugs cause I don't know how old or what kind they have in there ????
Total ????

I'll call my mechanic and see what they would charge for those jobs labor wise then see the parts on the seal and harmonic balancer. I'm pretty sure I still have some trans fluid left over from when I had that unit installed, would need some of the transfer case fluid too for both trucks and then do the plugs.

 

[Mooseman]

The oil leak that looks to be the front crank seal is on the one I would be buying

AFAIK, only the seal and balancer would need to be replaced, which means the timing cover can stay in place. A significant savings in labour as the timing cover replacement requires dropping the oil pan. There is also a possibility to replace the 1st design seal only by buying the Mahle/Clevite complete 1st design timing cover gasket set (1st design seal only is no longer available). In any case, the tech would need to source the special tool to remove the 1st design balancer (Kent-Moore tool J 44226). If going through all this, I would recommend replacing the balancer with the 2nd design along with the seal to future proof it.

Thinking about the tranny, I would take it to a transmission shop as I have little faith in dealers. It's possible that a fluid and filter change may fix it and/or it has the infamous TCC valve bore wear in the valve body, which can be fixed without dropping the whole tranny. Maybe that shift kit you have has that fix.

 

[Daniel644]

If going through all this, I would recommend replacing the balancer with the 2nd design along with the seal to future proof it.

That would be my plan based on this thread https://gmtnation.com/forums/threads/replacing-crankshaft-front-seal-solved.17742/page-2 I came across before posting this thread.

As for the transmission he basically describes it as it feels like the TC isn't locking and the issue can be intermediate, happening sometimes then going away for a week or 2 or going away till the end of a several hour long drive if that would give any clue on if that would make the TCC valve bore thing you mentioned a more likely possibility. Also here is the Ebay listing for the kit I bought almost 11 years ago now https://www.ebay.com/itm/2708748844...=0&customid=link&campid=&toolid=20001&mkevt=1


I did just swing by my mechanic, book time for the front crank seal is 3.2 Hr's so a little over $300 ($95 an hour, I asked) for that plus parts and they quoted $650 in labor to pull the trans from both trucks and install 1 of them into the 02 plus fluids so i'd probably be in to it for double the purchase price to get it to the "hop in and drive to Florida" level of reliable.

 

[Mooseman]

So that kit does fix the TCC issues unless it's totally worn, which it doesn't sound like it is. I'd try putting in the kit first which is much less labour intensive.

The time for the seal sounds about right. And doing the water pump at the same time would save some time. Definitely replace the thermostat and temp sensor at the same time.

 

[corky]

OK, so my Trailblazer is an 03 LS with 248k miles and a newish (probably about 30-40k miles now) transmission and if you look in my thread history you will see what came out of my oil filter last year and the struggles i've had trying to sort the lower then it should be fuel mileage and brake issues.

So here is the opportunity, i've got some extended family that just bought a new 2500HD Silverado and they are looking to get rid of their 02 TB LTZ that has like 178-179k miles (it's been in their side of the family since 47k miles), they are giving me first dibs to buy it at the "family price" of what the dealer offered them for trade-in ($1,200), it's Red, so not my favorite color, but it's got the G80 RPO where my LS trim doesn't, it has the 2 tone interior with heated front seats over the cloth interior of mine, but it has 2 or 3 issues, he's been thinking the transmission has been feeling weird from time to time over the last few months and he took it to the dealership who said it's the torque converter, so that would need addressing at a point sooner rather then later and while looking it over I noticed an oil leak, near as I can tell i'm pretty confident it's the front crank seal (only other possibility would be oil pan at just the spot behind the harmonic balancer and not along the sides), it leaks enough that if you leave the panel under the engine off when you park over night you will leave a drip mark in the driveway (but not a puddle) and it has likely been leaking for many years at this level and it has the first gen Harmonic Balancer so all that would need addressing when replacing the seal and I think the water pump may be beginning to leak as it looked damp behind the WP pulley too, but thats no big deal if we are already in there to do the crank seal.

So here's the question, do you think that truck is worth the $1,200 if I gotta pay parts and labor to do the TC (and install the shift kit I've had laying around for a decade that I bought for the firebird I used to have) and the Harmonic Balancer/Front Seal?

and a secondary question, which would you do, a new Torque Converter and install the shift kit or swap transmissions between the 2 trucks? (again if you where paying for the work to be d

Buy it and move the parts you like to yours and scrap the rest.

 

[Daniel644]

Alright, making the deal, here are some pics I snapped tonight, I got the details of the "bad" in the pictures, there is a paint chip in the front passenger door, a scratch on the rear passenger door, a TINY amount of wear on the edge of the drivers seat and I need to replace the trim ring on the interior door handle, but those are cheap enough to get and I was wrong on the miles, it's actually 172k. I also snapped a shot of the frame behind the front tire so you guys can see how good this frame is (thats with the flash on).

@Mooseman I have the filter that I never did on my 99 Firebird when I planned to install the shift kit into it, it's a Wix filter that comes back as being listed for the "shallow pan" 4l60e, am I right in assuming we are the "Deep Pan" and need a different filter for the Trans?

 

[Mooseman]

The majority of these trucks got the deep pan. In fact, haven't heard of a single one with the shallow pan. Could have been the initial production of these trucks getting rid of some leftovers. To check which one you have, look here:

Identifying Deep or Shallow pan and this one with a picture

 

[spfautsch]

I may be completely off base here, but I'm relatively certain everything marketed as a "truck" or SUV that was equipped with the 4l60e got the deep pan.

I've done four trans rebuilds for the Trailblazer / Envoy platform and I always assumed as much. The only transmission variables I've seen thus far are the size of the boost valve and torque converter (the I6 got a higher stall converter). However, they've all been 4wd, so perhaps the 2wd models were built with shallow pans.

 

[Daniel644]

OK, quick update, first I confirmed it's a Deep Pan as it has the step in the bottom of the pan vs a flat bottom, second while i was doing the spark plugs and K&N Intake (that I took off my old one) I noticed the transmission dipstick wasn't quite seated all the way and so I started playing with it and I don't know if it's just worn out or something but I was able to pull the dipstick out rather easily without even unlocking it and 3rd, the transmission dipstick on this one is in front of the intake tube where on my 03 it's behind the intake tube, so it's like a different dipstick tube was fitted to the transmission on 1 year vs the other.

 

[Daniel644]

Officially Registered, Tagged and on my Insurance and in my driveway, doing some small things right now to just fix the little things, I decided since I got it so cheap it was worth tossing $100 or so into miscellaneous fixes so I decided to get some replacement parts on Amazon to see how they compare to the stock parts, I'll follow up on that later if @Mooseman could suggest the proper category on here (if we have one) for posting links to products on Amazon for these trucks and adding my honest review of them (little things like cup holder inserts and the plastic shell for the center console lid that gets broken on the alignment pin on the bottom and from people leaning on the lid).

I'm gonna run some Lucas Fuel System Cleaner through it then replace the fuel filter since this is from early enough it has a fuel filter, not like the later years

Also while i'm here, I have 2 bottles of this https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000ONZXPK/?tag=gmtnation-20 that I bought like 2 years ago for my 03 but never did, is this the right stuff for a G80 rear dif? and 2 bottles is the right capacity? I did my 03 not long after I got it but that was a decade ago so I don't remember capacities and the 03 wasn't a G80 like this one is.

And some other things, on my 03 when I double unlock the truck I hear the doors unlock, on the new 02 LTZ the alarm does like a double beep when you do the double unlock, is their a way to disable that beep? I've been doing a lot of the work at night and that sound is rather loud.

 

[TollKeeper]

First time seeing a Fire Engine Red truck with LTZ interior. Usually those were fleet trucks with LS (or lower) trims.

 

[Mooseman]

75w90 synth is the correct lube. I don't have capacities in front of me but there is a difference between the 8" and 8.6" due to a bigger cover. Those should be in the FAQs

 

[Daniel644]

RPO sticker for anyone curious, looks like it's got the smaller of the 2 gas tanks cause I filled up last night from low enough to trigger the low fuel light and it only took 16 gallons, where my 03 LS has the big one.

 

[Mooseman]

So it has the LL8 4.2. If it's a short wheelbase, then it's an 8" diff.

Drivetrain fluids specifications

Front differential: Fluid type: synthetic 75w90 (GM P/N 12378261, meeting GM Specification 9986115) Capacity: 1.7 pints Transfer case: Fluid type: AutoTrak II (GM P/N 12378508, also listed as GM P/N 88900402) Capacity: 2 quarts Rear Differential: Fluid type: synthetic 75w90 (GM P/N...

gmtnation.com

 

[Aroc]

OK, quick update, first I confirmed it's a Deep Pan as it has the step in the bottom of the pan vs a flat bottom, second while i was doing the spark plugs and K&N Intake (that I took off my old one) I noticed the transmission dipstick wasn't quite seated all the way and so I started playing with it and I don't know if it's just worn out or something but I was able to pull the dipstick out rather easily without even unlocking it and 3rd, the transmission dipstick on this one is in front of the intake tube where on my 03 it's behind the intake tube, so it's like a different dipstick tube was fitted to the transmission on 1 year vs the other.

Yes, The 02 transmission dipsticks are longer than later model years. Eventually that oring at the pull lever wears out and can release on its own due to internal transmission pressure. I replaced it with same oring size on the power steering reservior input line (working on it when I found the dipstick issue on my 02) and it's been a tight fit since.
The 02 fuel tank is 18.7gal capacity.

 

[Aroc]

Officially Registered, Tagged and on my Insurance and in my driveway, doing some small things right now to just fix the little things, I decided since I got it so cheap it was worth tossing $100 or so into miscellaneous fixes so I decided to get some replacement parts on Amazon to see how they compare to the stock parts, I'll follow up on that later if @Mooseman could suggest the proper category on here (if we have one) for posting links to products on Amazon for these trucks and adding my honest review of them (little things like cup holder inserts and the plastic shell for the center console lid that gets broken on the alignment pin on the bottom and from people leaning on the lid).

I'm gonna run some Lucas Fuel System Cleaner through it then replace the fuel filter since this is from early enough it has a fuel filter, not like the later years

Also while i'm here, I have 2 bottles of this https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000ONZXPK/?tag=gmtnation-20 that I bought like 2 years ago for my 03 but never did, is this the right stuff for a G80 rear dif? and 2 bottles is the right capacity? I did my 03 not long after I got it but that was a decade ago so I don't remember capacities and the 03 wasn't a G80 like this one is.

And some other things, on my 03 when I double unlock the truck I hear the doors unlock, on the new 02 LTZ the alarm does like a double beep when you do the double unlock, is their a way to disable that beep? I've been doing a lot of the work at night and that sound is rather loud.

When doing the rear diff on these trucks the fill plug is different material than the diff case and has tendancy to get welded to the case. I could not get the fill plug off my diff case so I had to get a new 10 bolt cover and filled diff with gear oil around the cover edges before torque sealing up the bolts.

 

[Daniel644]

Got a couple questions:

1. Is this https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B08CXX2XB6/?tag=gmtnation-20 all thats needed to do the rear wiper arm mod that was popular a decade or so back?

2. I've noticed (aside from the fog light button) that the headlight switch on the 02 doesn't have the momentary flick to the left to turn off the DRL/Headlights that the 03 does, I looked at switches on Amazon and the connectors appear to be the same but the 02 is a 1 year only part on it's headlight switch, would the later model year headlight switch be able to add that function to the 02 or is that something thats a BCM level control.

3. The Steering Wheel Controls are all horribly worn and i'd like to get new decals or worst case replace the switches but all the steering wheel controls I find on Amazon don't have the same layout as my steering wheel, mine has Climate Controls on the upper left buttons (specifically Fan Speed and Temperature) is there someone out there that makes the right decals?

4. Same as 3 but for the fancy digital climate control unit buttons? My On/Off button is worn away.

5. Is this the cheapest radio harness for my Bose system, I assume it works with my bose since I don't see any of the 3 RPO codes it says it's not compatible with in my RPO sticker https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0CLZ5DDPS/?tag=gmtnation-20


@Aroc I did the fluid on my 03 back when I got it and this truck has even less rust then my 03 had the better part of a decade ago when I did it so I don't foresee any issue on that, i'll of course make sure I can get the fill plug out before draining. Good idea on the O-ring, gonna try to determine a size using my calipers and find an O-ring set on Amazon.

 

[Mooseman]

1. Is this https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B08CXX2XB6/?tag=gmtnation-20 all thats needed to do the rear wiper arm mod that was popular a decade or so back?

No, you also need the "Park" bracket where the wiper arm rests when off. It's different than the metal arm's bracket.

 

[Daniel644]

No, you also need the "Park" bracket where the wiper arm rests when off. It's different than the metal arm's bracket.

So i checked GMPartsDirect to get the part number, it's been discontinued but I found it on Ebay, it's part number 25866386 none of the few threads I could find on the old site mentioned the stopper and the write up on the old site (that I found linked in one of the threads) is GONE, so it's good that you knew that. it shows as 07-09 for Trailblazer and Envoys and starts on the Buick Rainier in like 04 for anyone in the future looking for the part in a junkyard that finds this thread.

@Aroc would you mind telling me where on here you put the O-ring so I can see where i need to measure for sizing the o-ring.

 

[Mooseman]

AFAIK, there is no O-ring. That whole piece is the rubber seal that expands when you flip the lever down. It does tend to get loose over time and no longer seal. Don't know if it's available separately.

 

[Daniel644]

AFAIK, there is no O-ring. That whole piece is the rubber seal that expands when you flip the lever down. It does tend to get loose over time and no longer seal. Don't know if it's available separately.

@Aroc had said he did an o-ring, I came across a singular post in a random thread on the old site where someone cut a slit in a washer and jambed it in there and supposedly that fixed it, probably just need to bite the bullet and order a new dip stick.

 

[Mooseman]

Could have been some way to restore the stretch to reseal on the tube. I know mine is loose enough to pull without flipping the lever.

 

[Daniel644]

I did some digging the part number for the 2002 Trailblazer Transmission dip stick is GM 15069769.

I managed to find 1 new old stock on Ebay, aside from that it's a discontinued part (side note just learned today that the part number is actually stamped into the dipstick itself). New one is installed and secure in the tube, so thats 1 less small issue.

I also ordered a new upper O2 sensor just because it's cheap and easy to do and the 2 solenoids for canister and vapor purge?? (IIRC), you know those 2 parts you replace, one on the drivers side of the engine and the other behind the gas tank when you get the P0440 code since we already tried replacing the gas cap last year and the code came back.

I also got the Fuel Pressure Regulator just to do it in case it's contributing to this slight hesitation and less then perfect idle, you know that idle drop these trucks do sometimes where it feels like it might stall but doesn't.

I should probably get a new serpentine belt, but I might just rob that off the old truck since I just did it last year, it's got maybe a thousand miles on it.

 

[Redbeard]

I also got the Fuel Pressure Regulator just to do it in case it's contributing to this slight hesitation and less then perfect idle, you know that idle drop these trucks do sometimes where it feels like it might stall but doesn't.

With your slight hesitation, have you cleaned the throttle body (or is it Mass Air Flow) lately? Probably less likely to be the fuel regulator coming off idle. If you clean the throttle body plate do both sides well and disconnect the battery for at least 30 minutes.

 

[Mooseman]

Moved this thread to the Member Builds. More appropriate.

I remember someone fixed an issue by replacing the fuel pressure regulator. Not a difficult job but a bit spendy for what it is. These are replaceable only on 02 to 05.

I would definitely look into cleaning the TB first and disconnecting the battery or pulling the PCM fuses for 30 minutes. I had the same hesitation on my 02 and never was able to fix it. Wasn't so bad to it might stall, just a slight stumble.

Forgot to mention, Amazon links can be posted here:

Amazon

gmtnation.com

 

[Daniel644]

@Redbeard and @Mooseman last month once I decided to do the deal the first thing I did was get a set of AC Delco plugs because I suspected the truck didn't have AC Delco's in it and I was right, it had Bosch plugs, I picked a day and installed the plugs and did the K&N intake (no MAF on the early years Redbeard, I think that came in around 05-06) and while I was in there I did somewhat clean the throttle body, I didn't get it spotless but got most of it, I also had the battery disconnected but I didn't time out how long it was disconnected for and I don't remember at what point in the process it was disconnected, I would say it was for sure disconnected for at least 10 minutes because I spent at least that much time messing with the throttle body.

I also did the bottle of Lucas Fuel System Cleaner when I fueled it up and it has been showing signs of improvement with each drive, so i'm leaning toward fueling as the reason and it's not that hard a job to do the FPR and I got the Delphi part for like $65 on Amazon so why not do it (there's gonna be a lot of "why nots" with how cheap I got this thing for).

The research I did on this subject showed the common causes to be:
1. Dirty Throttle Body
2. Failing Coil Pack(s)
3. Failing FPR
4. Intake Manifold Gaskets

I personally installed the coil packs on this truck somewhere around late July of 2022 so I doubt they are the problem.

I think these trucks in general just had too low an idle from the factory, even my 03 improved slightly in that department by simply replacing the serpentine belt, once I have everything else sorted i'm gonna get this one tuned and with the tune comes a higher idle IIRC, which should solve it.

 

[Mooseman]

Which reminds me, check the intake manifold bolts. It's not so much the gaskets that fail but the bolts that loosen and allow leakage. Just a nice snug on those 10mm bolts. No gorilla torque required.

 

[Daniel644]

OK, got a pile of projects completed today and got a couple more planned for tomorrow (waiting for parts to arrive for most that).

Today I drove to town to do an errand then when I got it home let it sit with the hood open while I was prepping for what I would do today and while installing some LED light bulbs into the interior lighting (still gotta do the glove box and the under dash lights that are exclusive to the 02) and since it was a pack of 20 bulbs I went ahead and replaced all the ones in the old truck that I had swapped to LED years ago but most had failed.

Then I got it at just the right time to where the exhaust was hot enough to be able to get the upper O2 out easily without burning my hands on the exhaust so I knocked that out.

After that I backed it up on ramps and did that rear evap purge valve thing.

Then came the "big project" for the day, I got this Cerakote Ceramic Headlight Restoration Kit, I pulled the headlights off the red one and did them mostly inside except for the wet sanding portion of the kit, the other thing I did was I split the kit in half and used half on the red truck and the other half on the old truck, I probably could have done a better job on the sanding if I had kept the headlights installed on the red truck for most of the work, because I definitely got better sanding haze on the old truck before applying the final coating.

After doing that I decided to toss on some rear bilstein shocks i've had sitting around since I did the lowering kit on my old one (they are like 9 years old but only had a few thousand miles at most put on them, if even that much), so since the rear was still on ramps I just unbolted and removed the old shocks then man handled the bilsteins into position.

Oh yeah and I also at some point in all this installed some cabin air filters since it's an 02 and has the door, I had to pull a whole bunch of crap out of there, it looks like a nest almost except the lack of any droppings and so I dropped the blower motor to make sure it wasn't full of anything and blasted the area with my plug in electric computer duster before putting everything back together.