Turbo time?

[CDJuda]

Thinking about going turbo and had a few questions for everyone. I know the guy who did the turbo Voy project used a gt45R turbo and needed to know if a t70 would be sufficient or similar in size.
My vehcile has 100k miles on it so I only plan on pushing 3-5 pounds of boost until I've got money for forged internals and tranny upgrades.

Second question is I noticed that he swapped in an 06 PCM, is that actually necessary or does it just function better with a later model one.

Last question is does anyone make a turbo manifold for the Vortec 4200? Or am I going to need to custom fab something.

Thanks

 

[IllogicTC]

A lot of custom fabrication is where it's at. The I6 has a fairly limited aftermarket for performance parts.

Part of the reason for the newer PCM may have been the ability to use a MAF sensor in addition to MAP. I'm sure there's other reasons I'm just too tired to think right now.

 

[Blckshdw]

Yes, the 06 PCM was due to needing to add and use the MAF sensor. I don't believe there are any manufactured manifolds for OUR I6 engines, but I do remember seeing a bunch of turbocharged I6 Supras at a car show down here a few months ago. I Googled them to see how close their design was to ours, and the bolt patterns don't match up. So yeah, you're gonna be busy doing a lot of welding.

 

[glfredrick]

A lot of custom fabrication is where it's at. The I6 has a fairly limited aftermarket for performance parts.

Part of the reason for the newer PCM may have been the ability to use a MAF sensor in addition to MAP. I'm sure there's other reasons I'm just too tired to think right now.

I recall following a few early turbo builds and the PCM is almost always the sticking point. The MAF versus MAP is helpful, for the MAP will show pressures in the manifold far outside design parameters and not be able to adjust. The builder must remember that adding air is only one part of the equation -- additional fueling and at times spark control (generally retard instead of advance) is also required. A PCM that allows for these changes is required and as I recall, the earlier models just cannot cope.

Some have advocated dovetailing in a late model Ford unit from a turbo engine, but that would be a LOT of programming and wire pinning... There are several books to help the potential turbo engine builder understand all that is involved in the PCM controller system (can be found on Amazon):

http://www.amazon.com/Engine-Management-Advanced-Greg-Banish/dp/1932494421/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1399377967&sr=1-1&keywords=engine+control+management

http://www.amazon.com/Designing-Tuning-High-Performance-Injection-Systems/dp/1932494901/ref=pd_bxgy_b_text_y

http://www.amazon.com/Performance-Fuel-Injection-Systems-HP1557/dp/1557885575/ref=pd_bxgy_b_text_z

None of them may provide "out of the box" answers, but at least the individual who reads through and begins to grasp the intricies of the PCM and modifications required to deal with turbo and fueling will be on the right track to a successful build.

 

[CDJuda]

If I end up going through with this I'll probably end up having someone else do the PCM swap if I can actually find someone to do it. I'm confident enough to weld together a custom turbo header if I need to, I do build computers for a living so it's that I'm not perfectly capable of swapping the PCM. But if you get one wire wrong then you can wreck your engine or tranny so I don't think I'm going to let myself do that. I found a deal on craigslist for a t70 turbo, a brand new intercooler, and a supra header for 1000 dollars so I might snatch that up. Looking at getting a new job here in a few weeks and if I've got it then that's my green-light to start this massive project.

 

[RayGumm]

If I end up going through with this I'll probably end up having someone else do the PCM swap if I can actually find someone to do it. I'm confident enough to weld together a custom turbo header if I need to, I do build computers for a living so it's that I'm not perfectly capable of swapping the PCM. But if you get one wire wrong then you can wreck your engine or tranny so I don't think I'm going to let myself do that. I found a deal on craigslist for a t70 turbo, a brand new intercooler, and a supra header for 1000 dollars so I might snatch that up. Looking at getting a new job here in a few weeks and if I've got it then that's my green-light to start this massive project.

My naivete shines through. When I first bought this thing I said "I'mma TURBO it!!" However, reading this thread has schooled me on the more ridiculous intricacies of this mega project. But I still wanna do it, I have never installed a turbo before, so it will be an interesting process to say the least. I will certainly start a 'help me turbo it' thread. Juda - keep us appraised on your project so I have a jump-off point for how to do this. I suppose I will need to learn to weld first..

My TB will have a turbo installed, dammit.

 

[CDJuda]

My naivete shines through. When I first bought this thing I said "I'mma TURBO it!!" However, reading this thread has schooled me on the more ridiculous intricacies of this mega project. But I still wanna do it, I have never installed a turbo before, so it will be an interesting process to say the least. I will certainly start a 'help me turbo it' thread. Juda - keep us appraised on your project so I have a jump-off point for how to do this. I suppose I will need to learn to weld first..

My TB will have a turbo installed, dammit.

It won't be easy and it certainly it won't be cheap by my standards. But It will be fun and it will be sexy! I've grasped the concepts well enough to explain how forced induction works to other people, so I've got what it takes to at least start the project and maybe get a few friends involved. It's gonna be several weeks before I know If I got this job or not so I'm going to be inactive for awhile. But I'll update if something major has happened for sure.

 

[RayGumm]

It won't be easy and it certainly it won't be cheap by my standards. But It will be fun and it will be sexy! I've grasped the concepts well enough to explain how forced induction works to other people, so I've got what it takes to at least start the project and maybe get a few friends involved. It's gonna be several weeks before I know If I got this job or not so I'm going to be inactive for awhile. But I'll update if something major has happened for sure.

By 'not cheap', what do you estimate? I understand the theory behind turbocharging/ supercharging, and I understand kind of what needs to be done, but have no clue realistically how much it might cost. This is a concern.. haha

 

[CDJuda]

By 'not cheap', what do you estimate? I understand the theory behind turbocharging/ supercharging, and I understand kind of what needs to be done, but have no clue realistically how much it might cost. This is a concern.. haha

in parts probably around 2000-3000.

Labor is going to vary since I haven't decided what I'm going to be doing myself and what I'm going to leave up to a professional.

Also, is there no way to hook up an aftermarket MAF sensor to the existing engine computer? seems like a lot of work to add one sensor.

Edit: I can easily find a turbo for around 2-3 hundred, surprisingly its not the most expensive part, intercoolers can be found relatively cheap although from what I've heard you don't want to go to cheap on the intercooler or aftermarket headers because if they have shitty welds they can break off and ruin your engine or turbo. piping and silicon fasteners will probably set me back a few hundred, BOV's are kinda expensive if you want a good one, really the only thing thats going to be super expensive about this is the tune and the computer work so if I can find a way to avoid at least swapping in an entirely new computer that would save me time and cash.

 

[gmcman]

If you are going to turbocharge the 4.2, which has been done here a couple times, you really need to get with a tuner and discuss your application, not just pick a turbo and build around it. There are differences in exhaust and compressor impellers, based on your displacement, target boost, operating RPM's...etc.

You don't need a monster intercooler and try to keep the plumbing simple.... minimal angles, especiallly right angles which will kill flow and efficiency. My 84 BMW which is factory turbocharged is a very simple system, small intercooler which is about 10x12 inches and all the plumbing is on the passengers side. Uses a larger high volume setup @ 6PSI but works very well....smooth and not peaky. The exhaust manifold isn't even a header design, almost looks like a large piece of box channel steel bolted to the head with the turbo mounted in the middle.

With the 4.2 and low pressure target, you already have high compression so I would keep the spool time down slightly and let the PCM adjust easier. I think it would be more driveable while still making good power. What you are after is improved cylinder filling, plain and simple and with a target of 4 PSI you don't want it spooling up all crazy to make 4 PSI....which any setup could easily do but larger turbos with slightly higher spool time may be a better setup for the 4.2.

There are also issues with the exhaust after the exhaust impeller that need to be factored in and a good tuner could plug all these variables in. If I were building one I would pull the airbox and washer fluid tank and work in that area....lots of room there. Will keep the plumbing somewhat straight and simple.

 

[CDJuda]

If you are going to turbocharge the 4.2, which has been done here a couple times, you really need to get with a tuner and discuss your application, not just pick a turbo and build around it. There are differences in exhaust and compressor impellers, based on your displacement, target boost, operating RPM's...etc.

You don't need a monster intercooler and try to keep the plumbing simple.... minimal angles, especiallly right angles which will kill flow and efficiency. My 84 BMW which is factory turbocharged is a very simple system, small intercooler which is about 10x12 inches and all the plumbing is on the passengers side. Uses a larger high volume setup @ 6PSI but works very well....smooth and not peaky. The exhaust manifold isn't even a header design, almost looks like a large piece of box channel steel bolted to the head with the turbo mounted in the middle.

With the 4.2 and low pressure target, you already have high compression so I would keep the spool time down slightly and let the PCM adjust easier. I think it would be more driveable while still making good power. What you are after is improved cylinder filling, plain and simple and with a target of 4 PSI you don't want it spooling up all crazy to make 4 PSI....which any setup could easily do but larger turbos with slightly higher spool time may be a better setup for the 4.2.

There are also issues with the exhaust after the exhaust impeller that need to be factored in and a good tuner could plug all these variables in. If I were building one I would pull the airbox and washer fluid tank and work in that area....lots of room there. Will keep the plumbing somewhat straight and simple.

I would like a professional opinion on the matter but here in the KCK area the only well known tune shops are "Modified by KC & House of Boost" Both are pretty much unwilling to even talk to you unless you've got 20 grand set aside for a v8 engine swap among other things. They're just not friendly people from what I've seen. So I'm dealing with this myself until I can find a modest tune shop that's willing to provide suggestions to someone with a limited budget.

And I agree I don't want this thing running peak boost every time I hit the throttle, I've been doing some research, I'll definitely write down what you've suggested.

I really don't wanna have to pull the AC out in order to make everything fit but I may not have a choice.

Your recommendation was pulling out the Washer fluid res which I think I could live without, the airbox is already out, I have a K&N kit attached at the moment.

 

[gmcman]

Yeah, I think you could get a small washer tank from somewhere and make it work, I like the large stock washer tank but when it's out there's a ton of room there. I think you could keep the AC all intact as well.

Some Turbo systems are fairly simple...you may not even need a MAF but they make tuning easier and more precise. A rising rate fuel pressure regulator would likely be an option. Just working with 10:1 compression off the bat makes things tricky.

 

[glfredrick]

You might want to investigate a rear-mounted turbo setup.

Look up STS Turbo -- and note, this still doesn't solve the PCM issues which MUST be handled before bolting on a turbo -- but it does solve placement problems.

 

[Blckshdw]

If you're gonna be fabbing up stuff and doing some welding, check out this custom coolant reservoir/washer fluid tank a guy on SSOwners built. Something like this would give you a ton of room to work with, and you'd still be able to clean your windshield when you got the urge. Plus it's cool as hell!

 

[limequat]

The reason for using the P12 has nothing to do with the MAF. It's just that the P12 is better hacked.

There's one guy who did an early engine turbo tune. As i recall he had 60 lb injectors and a rising rate regulator. He referred to the tune as a "kludge". That tune is available on lime-swap.com for free download.

I've been involved in a few turbo 4200 projects now, and they go pretty smoothly once the MAF is dialed in (you need a bigger tube to read more than a few pounds boost. You don't need forged internals.

Autoroc is daily driving a 3rd gen Camaro with 13 psi boost. Stock motor. 25 mpg.
http://www.vortec4200.com/forum1/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=798

LLV.MA5 is daily driving a colorado (4 cyl version of the atlas) with 11 psi and a stock motor. 29 mpg.
http://www.vortec4200.com/forum1/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=1063

 

[Blckshdw]

So you can add a MAF sensor with the pre 2006 PCMs? Apologies for the misinformation I've been spreading then.

 

[limequat]

So you can add a MAF sensor with the pre 2006 PCMs? Apologies for the misinformation I've been spreading then.

Absolutely not. The point was it doesn't matter that the P12 has MAF. It's the fact the P12 has been hacked decently and the P10 has not.

 

[IllogicTC]

Not needing to dump your whole wallet into fancy internals at least lowers the bar a bit.

 

[RayGumm]

Not needing to dump your whole wallet into fancy internals at least lowers the bar a bit.

Indeed.. there may be hope after all!

 

[CDJuda]

It looks like steed speed makes a Turbo Manifold for the Vortec 4200 so I'll likely be giving them a call in the near future.

EDIT: Would a rear mount System from STS require a turbo manifold? Sorry I find that system a bit confusing? How would you mount the turbo to the exhaust?

 

[24v 4.2]

It looks like steed speed makes a Turbo Manifold for the Vortec 4200 so I'll likely be giving them a call in the near future.

EDIT: Would a rear mount System from STS require a turbo manifold? Sorry I find that system a bit confusing? How would you mount the turbo to the exhaust?

SMH....is it possible for a picture to sexually assault your wallet?

 

[CDJuda]

SMH....is it possible for a picture to sexually assault your wallet?

Through my life experience, I'm gonna say yes. lol

 

[RayGumm]

How much does that beautiful golden manifold cost?

 

[CDJuda]

How much does that beautiful golden manifold cost?

Looks like I would need to call to get a price, their other heads are priced around 700-1000 USD so somewhere in that range.

 

[RayGumm]

Thats not too bad. Better start savin mah pennies.

 

[CDJuda]

So everyone agree's that the P10 would be impossible to tune and if I decided to go turbo and I would absolutely need to swap in a P12 in order to get this thing running properly?

 

[IllogicTC]

So everyone agree's that the P10 would be impossible to tune and if I decided to go turbo and I would absolutely need to swap in a P12 in order to get this thing running properly?

If limequat says so, I'd very readily go with his disposition on the subject. He's not exactly new to the intricacies of the PCM.

 

[gmcman]

It looks like steed speed makes a Turbo Manifold for the Vortec 4200 so I'll likely be giving them a call in the near future.

EDIT: Would a rear mount System from STS require a turbo manifold? Sorry I find that system a bit confusing? How would you mount the turbo to the exhaust?

Only thing about a STS turbo that I personally don't care for...is the sound of a broken air compressor hose from a jackhammer that some make.

That's a sweet manifold....looks very similiar to the one on my BMW in function but not in looks...almost though.

 

[limequat]

So everyone agree's that the P10 would be impossible to tune and if I decided to go turbo and I would absolutely need to swap in a P12 in order to get this thing running properly?

Well, not exactly...

Check out this post from the other site:
http://forums.trailvoy.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=1166118

Hey guys, this is great news!

I've been talking with a couple of great guys about a turbo tune for the 2002 - 2005 Trailblazers. Until recently, this was thought to be generally impossible due to the limitations for the P10 PCM. Then, this happened:

That's Jeff Wieser's Firebird with a 2005 trailblazer engine. He ran a stock 2005 PCM tuned by Mark Romans to make 380 HP to the wheels on 8 psi of boost.

Both Jeff and Mark have agreed to make this tune available to the TB community. Now for the disclaimers: This was tuned specific for Jeff's car. That means a front-facing Hogan intake manifold, injectors, rising rate regulator, etc. Don't expect to flash this to your bone stock trailblazer and expect a perfect tune. But if you have HPT, this will be good starting point to get you on your way to boost. Even better would be to upgrade to a 2006 PCM (Jeff is doing that right now).

If you happen to live out west, look up Mark for all your tuning needs.

Enjoy!

 

[jimmyjam]

It looks like steed speed makes a Turbo Manifold for the Vortec 4200 so I'll likely be giving them a call in the near future.

Would a rear mount System from STS require a turbo manifold? Sorry I find that system a bit confusing? How would you mount the turbo to the exhaust?

damn... that mani tho...

no, sts is basically just splicing a turbo into your exhaust. need a pump to pull the oil out back into the engine, which is a little scary. big issue is that you have to use a small turbo to get it to spool in a reasonable amount of time. The further from the piston you are, the more air volume you need to compress, the more surface area to lose heat

 

[glfredrick]

EDIT: Would a rear mount System from STS require a turbo manifold? Sorry I find that system a bit confusing? How would you mount the turbo to the exhaust?

No need for a special manifold, as the turbo attaches directly to the exhaust pipe then routes back to the front of the vehicle to the intake system.

Lots of pipe, no extra manifolds, etc. There would be some expected lag time and the rear-mount turbo would be better for "steady state" turbo use rather than something close to "instant on" (read that "drag racing") as the length of pipe would slow reaction time. Once under boost, towing for instance, and the boost would continue throughout the powerband, but it might take longer to get there. One would also probably have to wrap the exhaust pipe and remove any flow impediments like mufflers, cats, etc., as turbos NEED all the flow at as fast a rate as possible, hence the practice of mounting them direct to the exhaust manifold at the engine.

The glory of the rear-mount system is that it fits where the factory resonator sits and only costs the dollars for tubing to get to and from it (above the cost of the turbo itself). It does not eliminate issues with PCM, tune, injectors, etc., and one also has to pipe a filtered air feed to it somehow.

 

[jimmyjam]

No need for a special manifold, as the turbo attaches directly to the exhaust pipe then routes back to the front of the vehicle to the intake system.

Lots of pipe, no extra manifolds, etc. There would be some expected lag time and the rear-mount turbo would be better for "steady state" turbo use rather than something close to "instant on" (read that "drag racing") as the length of pipe would slow reaction time. Once under boost, towing for instance, and the boost would continue throughout the powerband, but it might take longer to get there. One would also probably have to wrap the exhaust pipe and remove any flow impediments like mufflers, cats, etc., as turbos NEED all the flow at as fast a rate as possible, hence the practice of mounting them direct to the exhaust manifold at the engine.

The glory of the rear-mount system is that it fits where the factory resonator sits and only costs the dollars for tubing to get to and from it (above the cost of the turbo itself). It does not eliminate issues with PCM, tune, injectors, etc., and one also has to pipe a filtered air feed to it somehow.

this post perplexes me. putting a turbo where your resonator is would be an abject failure, waste of time and money.

The reason turbos are mounted directly to a manifold is to minimize air volume and to retain as much heat as possible. not because of airflow.

responsiveness is more important to a street car than a drag car. drag cars use massive turbos that take forever to spool, as they spool them at the line before launching.

 

[limequat]

this post perplexes me. putting a turbo where your resonator is would be an abject failure, waste of time and money.

The reason turbos are mounted directly to a manifold is to minimize air volume and to retain as much heat as possible. not because of airflow.

responsiveness is more important to a street car than a drag car. drag cars use massive turbos that take forever to spool, as they spool them at the line before launching.

Wow, strong words.
There is no question as to whether or not remote systems work. That has been proven over and over. I guess it would be up to the owner if it was a "waste of time and money".
While it is true that it is better to mount the turbo close to the head for spool, serious F1 racers will mount the turbo remotely in the name of better exhaust flow.
On an application like a stock trailblazer, spool is not that important. Where does the torque converter stall? You still have 275 lb-ft to get the vehicle moving and any boost after that is bonus. Now, if you have 1.6 4cyl driving a 3500 sedan (hello fusion), you need to be more concerned about spool up.

Having said all of that, the only reason to consider a remote setup, is packaging. The I6 has a natural "turbo hole" right next to the head. Many people have mounted it there using the *gasp* stock manifold and an up-pipe.

 

[jimmyjam]

Wow, strong words.
There is no question as to whether or not remote systems work. That has been proven over and over. I guess it would be up to the owner if it was a "waste of time and money".

that's fair, I tend to speak in hyperbole. the reason I said that is because the resonator past the rear axle, 10ft from the engine at least. the stock muffler is so big, if you chop that out there is a ton of real estate at a reasonable distance

 

[mcsteven]

Well, not exactly...

Check out this post from the other site:
http://forums.trailvoy.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=1166118

Dublin, California? Man, that's 25 minutes from me. Oh how I wish I had the time and resources to get my Envoy up to 470 hp. I'd really love the 600 horses the article was talking about, but to be honest, I think I'd be satisfied with about 400 hp / 350+ torque.

I'll have to check out the guy in Dublin. Maybe he's looking for a project. Clean, 87K mile truck turned into rocking sleeper (maybe add the 6 speed tranny, too) would be awesome!

 

[glfredrick]

I use and mod turbo vehicles, mostly diesel, so I completely understand getting max heat and exhaust gas to the turbo. I even run an exhaust manifold blanket on my Cummins, that spools at 40 psi and does so quick enough to launch with new Mustangs...

But, for steady-state horsepower -- like I said above -- for towing, a bit extra, etc., the rear mount is a rather simple option. It could go almost anywhere, and there is room where the big X huge factory muffler sits. One would only have to protect the floor boards from heat buildup.

Just another option for those without the capability of making or affording new manifolds.

 

[Texan]

WW 2 B-17 bomber had a remote turbo under the wing. Worked great.

 

[CDJuda]

Project got put on hold, didn't get that job I needed to get this up and running. Guess I shouldn't have counted my chickens before they hatched.