tranny fluid in coolant...AGAIN!!!! I have the worst luck!

[Denali n DOO]

Just dropped off to dealer today. Last year I had a new radiator installed due to tranny fluid mixing into the radiator, it was an internal leak in the rad. It was covered under warranty thank goodness($2000.00.) Well about 20000km's and 13 months later here I am with same issue again. I wonder what the diagnosis will be this time. I'm getting to my wits end with this truck. My warranty is now over and all these issues gonna start costing me. I have a great relationship with my dealer and they have ALWAYS been fair to me. I had a brief conversation with the Service Manager this morning and also mentioned the bump when I'm stopped issue that the Tec's couldn't duplicate whenever they drove it. I did find a way to make the bump occur whenever I wanted and showed him the last time I was in but they couldn't understand what it was. All I had to do was stand on the hitch and force the air suspension to raise the truck and then quick go for a drive and stop, and wait 45 sec to minute, release the brake and BANG, I got rear ended. I gave him the service bulliten for that which I found here at GMTNATION last night. I'm waiting for the call and we'll see how it goes.

also on the list of issues and regular maintainance I still have to deal with,
Upper ball joint, guess I'll be doing botttom one too, probably next week, dealer.
Liftgate issue with the bad ground wire I need to find, gonna try some more myself.
Transfer case and differential fluid changes, dealer.
Rear suspension starting to activate way too often, maybe every 45 sec to a minute. dealer.

Ha, and to top it all off, my 28 year career came to an end and the company car went back. For now this Envoy ie now our only vehicle and we are very dependant on it. My wife drives it daily to work, 109 km trip, all kinds of running around with the kids after work and on weekends too so it's hard to even have time to for repairs. I been driving around on my 1987 Raleigh bike while I decide what other vehicle wegonna get.

I hope the ENVOY gods will be good to me and get rid of the demons in my truck

 

[Denali n DOO]

Okay so 20000km ago it was tranny fluid leaking into coolant within the rad and reservoir. They replace the rad and flush the system. Just like the first time i saw the same thick dirty brown crap in the reservoir. This time they say it's engine oil and they don't know where it can from but they gonna flush the system $184, and send me on my way. Haha, when I asked the service advisor how the oil got there he explained it could only have come from 1 source and that it had to have been put directly in the reservoir by someone because the rad was kinda clean. He said if it came from the engine the rad would be contaminated first and then the overflow reservoir would get contaminated. Then he said we know WE didn't put oil in the coolant reservoir so I must have! That comment ended that conversation. The service manager said all they can do is flush the system and check it out again in 5000k. I'm pretty convinced these to issues are related and one repair has been misdiagnosed. Ha I find it also interesting that they can't say where the oil went when my original motor blew, it only had 3L left in it.

Does anyone have any thoughts on this?

 

[Bartonmd]

Head gasket is the typical way that engine oil gets into coolant. These don't have a history of head gaskets, but it's likely.

Also, your dealer doesn't seem to remember that oil is lighter than water. Oil in the coolant will stay at the top of the radiator, and will always be the first thing that goes into the burp bottle.

Mike

 

[Denali n DOO]

Head gasket is the typical way that engine oil gets into coolant. These don't have a history of head gaskets, but it's likely.

Also, your dealer doesn't seem to remember that oil is lighter than water. Oil in the coolant will stay at the top of the radiator, and will always be the first thing that goes into the burp bottle.

Mike

So if I occasionally look in the rad I would see oil there before it goes to the reservoir? Maybe it is a bad gasket. Would the new replacement engine have come with heads in place or more likely mine were used and the head gasket not sealed properly. I'm thinking it must have been engine oil before and because it was more contaminated it messed up the tranny cooler line, or maybe they thought it was a bad rad but it wasn't. I think the issue is still there and has been since engine swap.

 

[Bartonmd]

So if I occasionally look in the rad I would see oil there before it goes to the reservoir? Maybe it is a bad gasket. Would the new replacement engine have come with heads in place or more likely mine were used and the head gasket not sealed properly. I'm thinking it must have been engine oil before and because it was more contaminated it messed up the tranny cooler line, or maybe they thought it was a bad rad but it wasn't. I think the issue is still there and has been since engine swap.

I'd think you'd see a little bit in the top of the rad, but it may be very slow.

A head gasket will go both ways, if it's getting oil in the coolant (not always the other way around)... It will put oil in the coolant while running, but while not running but still hot, the oil pressure is 0 and the coolant pressure is still 15psi, so it will put a little bit of coolant in the engine oil. This will burn off in small quanities, but a used oil analysis will tell you if you have coolant in your oil or not. Could also very well be a crack in a head.

Engines come both ways... Short block, and long block. A short block is just the block and rotating assembly. A long block also has the heads, cam, lifters, rockers, valves. etc. in it. If they put a short block in it, could have been it didn't seal right. If they put a long block in it, could have been that it didn't seal right at the factory or rebuild shop. If they put a short block in it, it could have been that a crack internal to the head was the problem all along, and they just replaced the trashed parts in the short block, when the leak in the head was the cause of it all.

Likely, they thought it was a bad radiator and wasn't, last time.

Mike

 

[strat81]

Transfer case and differential fluid changes, dealer.
Rear suspension starting to activate way too often, maybe every 45 sec to a minute. dealer.

Transfer case fluid and differential fluid changes are easy. For the transfer case, you need a 3/8" hex bit. For the front differential, two sockets (13mm and 18mm, I think, nothing special). For the rear differential, a 3/8" square drive ratchet and a socket (I forget the size) for the cover bolts (some 2002 vehicles have a drain bolt).

The transfer case takes ~2 quarts of GM Auto-Trak II fluid, available from any GM dealer.

The differentials take 75w-90 gear lube. I'd go with a quality synthetic such as Mobil 1 or Valvoline SynPower. The front takes a bit over 1 quart and the rear varies based on axle, but should be around 3, give or take. Buy five for both axles and return any unused bottles. Buy a fluid pump ($15 or so) to get the fluids from the bottles into the respective devices. You can also try fitting a 6 foot length of vinyl tubing to a funnel to get the fluid in that way.

Instructions for all three are on the site. Always loosen the fill bolt first.



For the rear suspension, there's a chance the air springs have rotted out. Arnott Industries sells replacements for less than $200 per pair.

 

[Denali n DOO]

Transfer case fluid and differential fluid changes are easy. For the transfer case, you need a 3/8" hex bit. For the front differential, two sockets (13mm and 18mm, I think, nothing special). For the rear differential, a 3/8" square drive ratchet and a socket (I forget the size) for the cover bolts (some 2002 vehicles have a drain bolt).

The transfer case takes ~2 quarts of GM Auto-Trak II fluid, available from any GM dealer.

The differentials take 75w-90 gear lube. I'd go with a quality synthetic such as Mobil 1 or Valvoline SynPower. The front takes a bit over 1 quart and the rear varies based on axle, but should be around 3, give or take. Buy five for both axles and return any unused bottles. Buy a fluid pump ($15 or so) to get the fluids from the bottles into the respective devices. You can also try fitting a 6 foot length of vinyl tubing to a funnel to get the fluid in that way.

Instructions for all three are on the site. Always loosen the fill bolt first.



For the rear suspension, there's a chance the air springs have rotted out. Arnott Industries sells replacements for less than $200 per pair.

Thanks for the info. I was wondering, I talked the dealer into doing the TSB bulliton under warranty for the Bump When Stopped. They will be changing out the slip yoke. Will they have to change any fluids when doing this?

 

[strat81]

Thanks for the info. I was wondering, I talked the dealer into doing the TSB bulliton under warranty for the Bump When Stopped. They will be changing out the slip yoke. Will they have to change any fluids when doing this?

I'm not sure. Roadie might.

 

[SAR85]

Thanks for the info. I was wondering, I talked the dealer into doing the TSB bulliton under warranty for the Bump When Stopped. They will be changing out the slip yoke. Will they have to change any fluids when doing this?

Shouldn't have to change any fluids, maybe just top off the transfer case if any spills out.

 

[Denali n DOO]

So I have put about 3000km on since they flushed the system. I'm due for a oil change now too. I looked in the reservoir and it still looks clean, opened the rad and it still looks clean. Oil level is done a tad. But what really bothers me now is the condition of my hoses. They feel greasy, slimey and soft. Almost like they are kinda melting. I'm guessing the so called tranny fluid that mixed in the coolant the first time or the so called engine oil that mixed with the coolant the second time has caused this to happen to my hoses. Besides the upper and lower rad hose and the two bottom ones that go into the fire wall with some kind of disconect tabs on them, maybe they are heater hoses, what others should I do. What a PITA this truck is. Should I get GM hoses for these?

heres a pic of the upper hose

 

[strat81]

Clean them with something like Simple Green. If they become all gross again, then replace them.

If they have 100k+ miles on them, then replace them regardless.

 

[Denali n DOO]

okay, back to this oil in the coolant issue. I just changed the PS Fluid or as much as possible with the lame turkey baster method. I looked at the coolant reservoir and noticed its down a bit. I did have the rad hoses changed and system flushed again at 136306kms, I'm at about 141000kms now and thinking the coolant may have burped some air after the last flush (3 flushes so far) and thats why its down a bit. I also notice that there appears to be oil on the walls of the reservoir. I'm gonna post some pics shortly of that (cant find cable for camera right now), I was thinking to swab it with white paper.

When doing the PS Fluid changing, with all the starting driving turning and back to garage. I noticed every time I turned off the motor I could hear some air either blowing or sucking near the reservoir. Is that a normal thing to hear or should I be looking into that further? I cant really tell where the air sound comes from. Any suggestions?

 

[BRomanJr]

okay, back to this oil in the coolant issue. I just changed the PS Fluid or as much as possible with the lame turkey baster method. I looked at the coolant reservoir and noticed its down a bit. I did have the rad hoses changed and system flushed again at 136306kms, I'm at about 141000kms now and thinking the coolant may have burped some air after the last flush (3 flushes so far) and thats why its down a bit. I also notice that there appears to be oil on the walls of the reservoir. I'm gonna post some pics shortly of that (cant find cable for camera right now), I was thinking to swab it with white paper.

When doing the PS Fluid changing, with all the starting driving turning and back to garage. I noticed every time I turned off the motor I could hear some air either blowing or sucking near the reservoir. Is that a normal thing to hear or should I be looking into that further? I cant really tell where the air sound comes from. Any suggestions?

The noise after turning off Engine is probably the A/C equalizing through the orifice. Try the same test with the HVAC shut off.

I would tend to agree that if oil in the coolant is the previous symptom and a current symptom, then there is something defective that was not changed.

On a final note, you had a question on where the oil went that caused the original bottom end engine damage, The V8 motors had an issue with oil being sucked up from the left valve cover PCV chamber and consuming it very quickly. My truck had this problem...I almost lost the bottom end when it ran 3 quarts low in 800 miles , fix was replacing the drivers' side valve cover (there was a TSB) I have learned to check my oil at every fill-up and I am down to ~1qt every 3000mi.

 

[Denali n DOO]

The noise after turning off Engine is probably the A/C equalizing through the orifice. Try the same test with the HVAC shut off.

I would tend to agree that if oil in the coolant is the previous symptom and a current symptom, then there is something defective that was not changed.

On a final note, you had a question on where the oil went that caused the original bottom end engine damage, The V8 motors had an issue with oil being sucked up from the left valve cover PCV chamber and consuming it very quickly. My truck had this problem...I almost lost the bottom end when it ran 3 quarts low in 800 miles , fix was replacing the drivers' side valve cover (there was a TSB) I have learned to check my oil at every fill-up and I am down to ~1qt every 3000mi.

You were right, I turned off the a/c and then when I turned off the truck there was no hissing sound at all. So that was normal. I too had the valve cover change to correct oil consumption, and it still went through oil like crazy, that was before I lost that engine.

Brief Recap;

84936km - new engine

112889 km - had chocolate milk in coolant reservoir and rad, Dealer said tranny fluid leaked into coolant and messed up the rad, leak was internal in the rad. Replaced rad and put new coolant under warranty to solve. (pic#4)

133147 km - had chocolate milk in coolant reservoir, i never looked in rad this time as I figured it was same problem as before. Dealer says engine oil was put into coolant reservoir and didn't get through to the rad or the engine. They were quick to point out that their Tech didn't put engine oil in there and that I must have put it in there., flushed the system put new coolant, $184.00 cost to me. (pic#5)

currently 143000 km, so i'm looking in the reservoir and noticing what looks like oil drops on the wall of the reservoir, do you think this is the starting of another chocolate milk episope and that I'm seeing it before it gets to be chocolate milk. (pics#1,2,3)

How can I convince the damn dealer that there is a problem ??? What diagnostics can I suggest they perform to find out where the oil is coming from? I want to solve this before my engine warranty runs out....

 

[BRomanJr]

You were right, I turned off the a/c and then when I turned off the truck there was no hissing sound at all. So that was normal. I too had the valve cover change to correct oil consumption, and it still went through oil like crazy, that was before I lost that engine.

Brief Recap;

84936km - new engine

112889 km - had chocolate milk in coolant reservoir and rad, Dealer said tranny fluid leaked into coolant and messed up the rad, leak was internal in the rad. Replaced rad and put new coolant under warranty to solve. (pic#4)

133147 km - had chocolate milk in coolant reservoir, i never looked in rad this time as I figured it was same problem as before. Dealer says engine oil was put into coolant reservoir and didn't get through to the rad or the engine. They were quick to point out that their Tech didn't put engine oil in there and that I must have put it in there., flushed the system put new coolant, $184.00 cost to me. (pic#5)

currently 143000 km, so i'm looking in the reservoir and noticing what looks like oil drops on the wall of the reservoir, do you think this is the starting of another chocolate milk episope and that I'm seeing it before it gets to be chocolate milk. (pics#1,2,3)

How can I convince the damn dealer that there is a problem ??? What diagnostics can I suggest they perform to find out where the oil is coming from? I want to solve this before my engine warranty runs out....

Sorry to hear about the run of bad luck with your Truck, IMO The amount of oil drops in the coolant reservoir shown in your pictures should not be a problem, could be trace amounts of previous oils that finally migrated into the reservoir tank. I would worry only if the droplets increase dramatically or coolant changes color or thickens.
If the droplets don't get worse, schedule a time to remove the reservoir, flush it and re-install re-fill. This could be done a couple months before warranty runs out and if the droplets return or get worse you have some evidence of an ongoing problem.

The other process I use to curb oil consumption is to run the heck out of it weekly (this works on both my NorthStars too), it keeps the top end cleaner without resorting to a top engine cleaner inhalation with subsequent smoke fest. I have almost 190k on mine and not afraid to drive it hard.

 

[Denali n DOO]

Sorry to hear about the run of bad luck with your Truck, IMO The amount of oil drops in the coolant reservoir shown in your pictures should not be a problem, could be trace amounts of previous oils that finally migrated into the reservoir tank. I would worry only if the droplets increase dramatically or coolant changes color or thickens.
If the droplets don't get worse, schedule a time to remove the reservoir, flush it and re-install re-fill. This could be done a couple months before warranty runs out and if the droplets return or get worse you have some evidence of an ongoing problem.

The other process I use to curb oil consumption is to run the heck out of it weekly (this works on both my NorthStars too), it keeps the top end cleaner without resorting to a top engine cleaner inhalation with subsequent smoke fest. I have almost 190k on mine and not afraid to drive it hard.

Hmmm, heres something I'm thinking about. I wonder if the new engine would have the valve cover with the re designed baffle or does it have one of the poor design ones on it like my original motor. If they included the new design vavle cover do you think it would be evident by the new engine product number or the serial number? I think my new engine should have that since its an improved design. I'm down a good litre of oil every oil change, which is every 5000km now. I use to use the dic for change intervals but never again will I do that. I know my friend was driving behind me amd when I punched the throttle he could smell like oil burning but didn't notice any blue smoke.

On a funny note, it was my friend with a ford f150 that told me about the blue smoke with my original motor and he's laughed about that ever since and calls my Envoy junk. Well I guess he didn't touch would because this weekend I was able to advise him that his 09 Ford f150 puffs huge amount of blue smoke on start up even after its warmed up and restarted. Karma is a bitch !!!

 

[CaptainXL]

Use a combustion leak tester to see if the head gasket is blown. Much cheaper to find out and fix the head gasket then to replaced the entire exhaust system and engine. Stop fiddling with this oil loss and coolant stuff. Bite the bullet and get it checked out.

 

[Denali n DOO]

Use a combustion leak tester to see if the head gasket is blown. Much cheaper to find out and fix the head gasket then to replaced the entire exhaust system and engine. Stop fiddling with this oil loss and coolant stuff. Bite the bullet and get it checked out.

I didn't know there was such a testing kit available. I'm excited to go get one one get an answer. I'm gonna try and pick one up this aftrenoon and see what it does. Hopefully it's a straight forward procedure. I'll report back with the results.

Thanks for the info.