Pipe lines Oppostition has me confused.

RedEnvoyDenali

Original poster
Member
Dec 4, 2011
520
I hope this is not misappropriate, please delete if it is.

I have been following the news regarding the opposition to building Pipelines to supply crude oil from Alberta Oil Sands to Texas (Keystone XL) and Kitimat BC(Gateway). There seems to be an inordinate amount of opposition and noise to these projects. Let me also state I am NOT for raping the planet, just using some of it to our benefits.

I will provide some information as I see it. We Canadians would supply oil to US refineries in Texas and a port on our own coast. However environmental groups are crying doom and gloom if this occurs. I do understand there are environmental hazards with ANY endeavor that humans undertake. BUT, we already have 10's of 1000's of miles of pipelines running around both Canada and the US and how often do you hear of failure that was not sabotage or terrorism (which we have had that here). I also believe that Canada is the biggest non US supplier of crude to the USA. Alberta and Saskatchewan have one of the largest reserves of oil on the PLANET. By the way I also understand that North Dakota has a large untapped reserve of oil. The Keystone XL pipeline would transport all this crude to Texas refineries for processing and distribution to the rest of the country.

Now the questions. Why would the USA prefer to import oil from counties in the middle east that have absolutely hostile intentions towards the USA (I include Venezuela in this group although I don't think terrorism originates from here)?. I think even I can guarantee we won't wish for your death, because where would we go for cross border shopping. LOL.

The middle east is, has been, and probably always will be a powder keg for the rest of our lifetimes, pretty unstable source of energy.

The USA is in the midst of a recession, the Keystone XL pipeline will create thousands of jobs and will provide ongoing employment for a long time. Why would anyone promote activity that would keep you folks down?

You folks don't accept very much interference in administrating your country from other peoples around the world, why would any American think they should be involved in Canadian policy with respect to our Gateway pipeline?

My apologies for the length of this post but I just don't understand why the opposition to these pipelines which would benefit all the people of North America.
 

Jkust

Member
Dec 4, 2011
946
I don't think you are quite getting the situation in the United States right now. We have an administration in the White House that is at odds with a majority of the American population or at least the portion of the population not directly benefiting from the actions the president is taking. In other words we would like the pipeline, but our president has an overall plan of fundamentaly changing the country to mimic european nations, again, in opposition to the citizens and of course our Constitution and Bill of Rights. You could write a library of novels on this. If you are viewing the situation via the liberal news media, you will not ever understand why wrong is right. The situation has become such a cliche. Part of the big picture is such that over half of the citizens in the United States pay no federal income taxes and many actually get a check at tax time. My point is a lot of people are voting to keep the gravy train rolling along and the gravy train president has substantial progressive views not in line with the pipeline.
 

The_Roadie

Lifetime VIP Donor
Member
Nov 19, 2011
9,957
Portland, OR
This sort of thread usually degenerates into partisan politics or eco-discussion, which is why they're generally not encouraged here, even in the off topic section.

Summaries of the issues can be trivially Googled for. Here's one: Keystone Pipeline - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The issues that get people excited may be in the second order effects, in that cheap or local oil availability may delay adoption of more natural gas and/or alternative energy sources. It's not an easy one-level analysis. And there are folks on both sides of the issue that are much better debaters than any of us here that I would seek out if I needed more information. Just sayin'.
 

RedEnvoyDenali

Original poster
Member
Dec 4, 2011
520
Thank you gentlemen for your insights.

I thought as I get older this would get to be easier but I find that it doesn't and I seem to care more. Not for myself but for my kids and grandkids.


I don't want to create any discourse so if this degenerates to that level please close this thread with my blessings.
 

ieatglue

Member
Nov 20, 2011
152
I still don't understand why I pay $1.20 for a litre of gas in Canada when it's only $0.91 in the US.

I also don't understand why we cut down our trees, ship them to the US for processing and buy them back.
 

Short Bus

Member
Dec 2, 2011
1,906
ieatglue said:
I still don't understand why I pay $1.20 for a litre of gas in Canada when it's only $0.91 in the US.

I also don't understand why we cut down our trees, ship them to the US for processing and buy them back.

Because America Kicks Ass!!!

WARNING: STRONG LANGUAGE!!!

[video=youtube_share;kshqj1rIyEo]http://youtu.be/kshqj1rIyEo[/video]
 

Jkust

Member
Dec 4, 2011
946
ieatglue said:
I still don't understand why I pay $1.20 for a litre of gas in Canada when it's only $0.91 in the US.

Well let's figure it out. Just a quick look at wikipedia below tells me that Canada taxes their citizens at a higher than in the U.S.A. I wonder why they would do that?

CanadaFuel taxes in Canada can vary greatly between locales. On average, about one-third of the total price of gas at the pump is tax. Excise taxes on gasoline and diesel are collected both federal and provincial governments, as well as by some select municipalities (Montreal, Vancouver, and Victoria); with combined excise taxes varying from 16.2 ¢/L (73.6 ¢/imperial gal; 61.2 ¢/US gal) in the Yukon to 30.5 ¢/L ($1.386/imperial gal; $1.153/US gal) in Vancouver. As well, the federal government and some provincial governments (Newfoundland and Labrador, Nova Scotia, and Quebec) collect sales tax (GST and PST) on top of the retail price and the excise taxes.[8]

United States
State Diesel Taxes, April 2009Fuel taxes in the United States vary by state. The United States federal excise tax on gasoline, as of February 2011, is 18.4 cents per gallon (4.86 ¢/L) and 24.4 cents per gallon (6.45 ¢/L) for diesel fuel. In January 2011, motor gasoline taxes averaged 48.1 cents per gallon (12.71 ¢/L) and diesel fuel taxes averaged 53.1 cents per gallon (14.03 ¢/L).[9] For the first quarter of 2009, the mean state gasoline tax is 27.2 cents per US gallon, plus 18.4 cents per US gallon federal tax making the total 45.6 cents per US gallon (12.0 ¢/L). For diesel, the mean state tax is 26.6 cents per US gallon plus an additional 24.4 cents per US gallon federal tax making the total 50.8 cents US per gallon (13.4 ¢/L).[10] There are also a few states and municipalities that charge sales tax on top of the excise taxes and the retail price.
 

ieatglue

Member
Nov 20, 2011
152
828671a44fd4899589884c895ff7.jpg
 

RedEnvoyDenali

Original poster
Member
Dec 4, 2011
520
I too used to wonder why the oil we dig up here is less expensive to buy as gas in the USA. That is not your fault, we have our politicians to thank for that. :crazy: However gas is not the only problem. You folks complain about the high cost of things like auto parts. You should try to buy these things in Canada.

Recently bought 4 Bilstien HD shocks for the Denali from Shockwarehouse (brought the Denali in Wisconsin). I think they were about 60 bucks each and I think free shipping (but only to the US). Up here the best price I was quoted was around 88 bucks each. Well for 130 bucks on the four guess which way I went. Thank goodness for free trade, American made, no Duty, only GST. Now you know why I condone cross border shopping.:thumbsup:

Thanks for the conversation, enjoying what I am hearing so far.
 

Jkust

Member
Dec 4, 2011
946
RedEnvoyDenal said:
I too used to wonder why the oil we dig up here is less expensive to buy as gas in the USA. That is not your fault, we have our politicians to thank for that. :crazy: However gas is not the only problem. You folks complain about the high cost of things like auto parts. You should try to buy these things in Canada.

Recently bought 4 Bilstien HD shocks for the Denali from Shockwarehouse (brought the Denali in Wisconsin). I think they were about 60 bucks each and I think free shipping (but only to the US). Up here the best price I was quoted was around 88 bucks each. Well for 130 bucks on the four guess which way I went. Thank goodness for free trade, American made, no Duty, only GST. Now you know why I condone cross border shopping.:thumbsup:

Thanks for the conversation, enjoying what I am hearing so far.

It's funny the auto parts stores at our U.S. prices have one of the higher mark ups around. When the economic downturn started taking effect, auto parts stores stocks were being suggested because of the obvious move to keep your own car longer rather than buying new. So if an auto part cost x from the manufacturer and the U.S. retailer markes it up to 3x and the Canada equivalent cost 4x, why is there an additional mark up?

Let me ask you this then does the average U.S. citizen have a higher,. lower or equivalent lifestyle than the average Canadian. It is amazing that I live only hours from Canada but have never been there and know very little about it.
I guess I'm trying to understand if your stuff all cost more as it seems to, do you all make more money than the equivalent U.S. job equivalent.

My gut feeling and I honestly don't know how correct this is, is that Canada has a much more socialist system than the U.S. Not socialist but moreso than the U.S. In other words what I always think when I hear Canadians talk about your higher prices is that you have done it to yourselves with your cradle to grave mentality. In the last 3 years, we have made up for lost time and are very close to catching up to you.
 

RedEnvoyDenali

Original poster
Member
Dec 4, 2011
520
Jkust said:
It's funny the auto parts stores at our U.S. prices have one of the higher mark ups around. When the economic downturn started taking effect, auto parts stores stocks were being suggested because of the obvious move to keep your own car longer rather than buying new. So if an auto part cost x from the manufacturer and the U.S. retailer markes it up to 3x and the Canada equivalent cost 4x, why is there an additional mark up?

Let me ask you this then does the average U.S. citizen have a higher,. lower or equivalent lifestyle than the average Canadian. It is amazing that I live only hours from Canada but have never been there and know very little about it.
I guess I'm trying to understand if your stuff all cost more as it seems to, do you all make more money than the equivalent U.S. job equivalent.

My gut feeling and I honestly don't know how correct this is, is that Canada has a much more socialist system than the U.S. Not socialist but moreso than the U.S. In other words what I always think when I hear Canadians talk about your higher prices is that you have done it to yourselves with your cradle to grave mentality. In the last 3 years, we have made up for lost time and are very close to catching up to you.

Truly sorry to hear you are catching up with us with respect to this. Trying to keep things somewhat simple, the way I see it is you folks have one of two choices, Democrats or Republicans. Since I wouldn't brag about either one, I truly don't understand one side.

Here in Canada we have one Republican party(Conservative) and two Democrats (Liberals and NDP). Don't know if this is our problem or not. I have spent a great deal of time in the US in a past life and thoroughly enjoyed visiting all parts of your country. My opinion is that we are very very much alike. We each have very unique parts of our countries that give it flavor and character. Since we have had the Democratic side be in control for more of our history than the other side perhaps that is why we are in the situation we are in. Now it is not all bad, we didn't let our banks get out of control so we haven't seen the impact you folks are going through with housing (my opinion, I stand to be corrected if not correct).

However that said Glue's little cartoon is very correct, living this close together and having our economies meshed so tightly I hope you get your house in order because I can see our little boat go down with your big ship and that scares me. This is why I started this thread to get some of your input into the situation, we can't ostrich here it won't work.

This also why I can't understand some of the opposition I hear, I feel some days like it is North America against the world, and we should stick together for our own good a little better.

Please keep the comments coming and THANKS.
 

Jkust

Member
Dec 4, 2011
946
RedEnvoyDenal said:
Truly sorry to hear you are catching up with us with respect to this. Trying to keep things somewhat simple, the way I see it is you folks have one of two choices, Democrats or Republicans. Since I wouldn't brag about either one, I truly don't understand one side.

I can sum up the difference between our Democrats and our Republicans simply. Our democratic party believes they have a 'right to something' via the government taking it from others while the Republicans believe they have a 'right from' the government taking our things. The republican view most mirrors how and why the U.S.A was created in the first place. Republicans believe in working to attain things with the tools earned and democrats believe they can simply take it from others if they haven't been able to attain it while along the way the democrats will create new definitions of words to garner support. Simply put other than the ultra wealthy, most all of the successful people I know are republicans. There are obviously exceptions to the rule such as attorneys and others. Many of the working folks are democrats and feel the system has somehow ripped them off. (again I know exceptions here as well) The problem with that logic is that we all as natural born citizens went through the same system of public schools and colleges while some chose to buckle down, go to college and make the hard and smart but not necessarily the easy choices, others chose to forge college, not start a business, buy expensive toys on credit before they were due, have kids without planning, etc.

I was brought up as a child very poor during the Ronald Reagan presidency. Of course Reagan was a relatively conservative Republican. I recall my very blue collar parents hating Reagan. Those were very different/difficult times I realize and so different that it is almost unfair to compare then to this decade but the reality is they made poor choices and skipped their education leading them to a life of pay check to paycheck living. I was brought up to blame rich people for our situation when in reality the rich people simply made the better choices. Understand though that being brought up so poor pushed me to never, ever want to live even one day like my parents. Instead of blaming anybody else or looking to the government, I went to college on my own dime to the tune of $100,000 and did what is available to everybody else and made my own success. When I hear democrats complain about how unfair the system is, I am disgusted given 99.999% of them had more opportunity than I did. Our democratic party has unfortunatly become the party of those that don't want to do the hard work of making your own way or simply want a free lunch provided by anybody else but their constituents.

Democrats = more government, regulation and laws because government knows better than the individual, higher taxes but only on the productive class.
Republicans = less government because the private sectory can do what ever it is (that is not required in the constitution) cheaper and more efficient, less taxes on everyone.

The big issue I see is nobody wants to hear the truth anymore and as long as the U.S.A keeps borrowing money from China, we as a country put off the hard decisions that are going to be forced upon us at some point in the future but kill our kids and grandkids standard of living.
 

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