No crank-no start-no pl/pw/interior lighting/headlights

NinjuhhNutz

Original poster
Member
Oct 15, 2012
720
as I was in the middle of an install of Viper 5704 + Xpresskit DBall today, arm/disarm was working...lock/unlock worked momentarily, then after a few minutes, I had no interior lights (dash lights come one as normal and security light comes on, goes off for a few seconds then stays on) and will not crank, no headlights, the lights on the controls of my radio come on, but no display/output...factory fob doesn't work for the door locks, viper fob doesn't work, but you can hear the internal relay clicking. power windows don't work from the door panel, neither do the locks or the window lock button (no led feedback)
I completely removed the viper unit and bypass, and checked all my fuses, can't come up with anything. I had to hitch a ride to work today and was an hour and a half late, I need some help here guys. :confused:

Thanks
Chris
 

The_Roadie

Lifetime VIP Donor
Member
Nov 19, 2011
9,957
Portland, OR
What's your meter say the raw battery voltage is?

Did you try to jump it?

How old is the battery?

Did I mention I suspect the battery until given new information? :wink:
 

CaptainXL

Member
Dec 4, 2011
2,445
Have you checked out the 12volt.com and asked questions there? Usually a large proportion of the electronics in installing RS's and alarms is not vehicle specific. Just the color code for the wiring might be somewhat different. On the surface what it sounds like is that you don't have the DB-ALL programmed or selected for the proper vehicle type. I have experience using the XK01 and I know you need to program it to the proper number. 12volt.com. hope this helps.
 

NinjuhhNutz

Original poster
Member
Oct 15, 2012
720
I already have posted over in 12volt lol...between there and here, it's hard to find a question that someone (or a group or people) don't have the right answer to, though it may take a little time to diagnose. These sites are awesome, save people like me quite a bit of $ in diagnostics and labor, and keep us from getting shafted by those trying to sale you "the right part" just to make a buck.
With that being said, my tb it out in the cold all alone caught with her pants down ((sorry, at this point I'm just trying to keep my sanity and sense of humor))
window is down and door locks not working...I don't live in a "bad" neighborhood, but I don't feel safe with her out there unprotected.

Thanks everyone
 

NinjuhhNutz

Original poster
Member
Oct 15, 2012
720
the roadie said:
What's your meter say the raw battery voltage is?

Did you try to jump it?

How old is the battery?

Did I mention I suspect the battery until given new information? :wink:

Haven't tried jumping it, the battery is relatively new, got it around a year ago I think?
Could it be the battery if other functions are working properly? wouldn't it at least mimic the sound/action of cranking?
 

Sparky

Member
Dec 4, 2011
12,927
not always.
 

NinjuhhNutz

Original poster
Member
Oct 15, 2012
720
Sparky said:
not always.

ahhh...all I can say right now, is thank God for punching bags :smile:
blast some music, work out a bit of frustration, come back and feel 10X better...

on the way to work now, hopefully a light bulb will come on while I'm there and I'll figure something out when I get home
(metaphorically speaking, but a light in the TB would be even better :rotfl: )
 

NinjuhhNutz

Original poster
Member
Oct 15, 2012
720
the roadie said:
What's your meter say the raw battery voltage is?

Did you try to jump it?

How old is the battery?

Did I mention I suspect the battery until given new information? :wink:

raw batt= +/- 12V
also tried the functions with a battery charger connected, no joy

12V constant/acc 1&2/ign 1&2/starter all reading +/-12V at ignition...so that rules out the ignition switch? since I'm getting a good output on my starter wire?

needle is starting to point towards bcm I think... :hissyfit:
 

NinjuhhNutz

Original poster
Member
Oct 15, 2012
720
update:

tested all the ignition/crank fuses in the under hood fuse box and they are all reading correctly...I have power to my fuse box beside the bcm, and my door trigger wires are sending signal to the fuse box.

my door lock actuators/windows have power to them, as I was able to jump the windows up/down and lock/unlock...and I am getting a data wire reading at the bcm and the door panel...

I checked the splice packs under the RR seat, and getting positive readings from several wires there

I'm stumped...HELP!
 

Sparky

Member
Dec 4, 2011
12,927
Try the ignition switch. It does a ton more than just send 12V to the starter.
 

MAY03LT

Member
Nov 18, 2011
3,420
Delmarva
NinjuhhNutz said:
security light comes on, goes off for a few seconds then stays on

Under normal circumstances I'd suggest trying the security relearn, but it seems in this case that there is something going on with the data bus.

NinjuhhNutz said:
I completely removed the viper unit and bypass

So nothing is tapped into the data wire at the OBD2 port now?

After the bypass was removed, was the battery disconnected/reconnected? Normally I advise against this, but for data bus faults without a scan tool this is the only way to clear them.

NinjuhhNutz said:
I am getting a data wire reading at the bcm and the door panel...
I checked the splice packs under the RR seat, and getting positive readings from several wires there

I highly suggest not probing the bus wires. If a bus wire to a module is suspected of being shorted/open, it should be isolated from the bus and the module and then tested. That's what the shorting bars in the 2 data splice packs are used for.

I'm away from my notes at the moment so if you see this before I get back can you include what year yours is?
 

NinjuhhNutz

Original poster
Member
Oct 15, 2012
720
MAY03LT said:
Under normal circumstances I'd suggest trying the security relearn, but it seems in this case that there is something going on with the data bus.



So nothing is tapped into the data wire at the OBD2 port now?
Nope, nothing on the data bus wire

After the bypass was removed, was the battery disconnected/reconnected? Normally I advise against this, but for data bus faults without a scan tool this is the only way to clear them.
first thing I tried after removing the unit was a security relearn and then disconnecting the battery for a while...still no joy


I highly suggest not probing the bus wires. If a bus wire to a module is suspected of being shorted/open, it should be isolated from the bus and the module and then tested. That's what the shorting bars in the 2 data splice packs are used for.
I'm a bit unclear on that part, will dig into it for a few min, but could you be a little more specific on shorting bars at the data splice pack...and which one?
my manual says there are splice packs under the dash and under the RR seat...
I'm away from my notes at the moment so if you see this before I get back can you include what year yours is?
05
 

NinjuhhNutz

Original poster
Member
Oct 15, 2012
720
all I can say...is wow...I'm beyond pissed off and extremely happy at the same time~
I quite vividly remember double and triple checking both fuse boxes...somehow, I overlooked the fuses behind the AV and AIR relays in the fuse box (fuses 30 and 31) the effin fuse for the Truck Body Controller was blown...tossed in a new 10A fuse, and she cranks right up!

no throttle response from the gas pedal though :/
wondering if there is some kind of reset that has to be done for the throttle position sensor? or?
 

NinjuhhNutz

Original poster
Member
Oct 15, 2012
720
the roadie said:
Shouldn't need to have a reset, but a battery pull for 30 minutes would prove that. A failed TPS or wiring harness should light up the SES and throw a code.

I haven't been under the hood for anything...other than the fuse box, so I'm gonna start with the wiring harness in my sights.
no access to a scanner, so I'm somewhat blind going in

thanks again for the help on my "other issue" still can't believe I overlooked that fuse :confused:
 

NinjuhhNutz

Original poster
Member
Oct 15, 2012
720
I had today to work on the tb...used the manuals supplied by Mooseman...2 HUGE thumbs up there, and checked all the 5v wires from the pedal, the fan and the throttle body...all reading 5v. other than a sketchy connection on the harnesses, is there any way to troubleshoot the individual parts to see which is the culprit?
I took the tb off to clean it while I was at it, pulled the harness for it and the tb starts coughing like a 40+ year smoker, guessing the tb is ok...the fan however doesn't respond either way when the harness with the 5v supply is removed...ideas?

and thanks roadie, I don't think it was this post, but I read a few others with your comments about checking the 3 harnesses for the 5v connections
 

The_Roadie

Lifetime VIP Donor
Member
Nov 19, 2011
9,957
Portland, OR
The throttle body and accel pedal sensors are potentiometers - volume controls. Each one of the four sensors has a 5V on one side, ground on the other side, and a wiper to pick off the voltage that corresponds to the shaft position. The two sensors are connected to opposite ends of the 5V and ground wiring, so pushing the pedal will make one sensor increase in voltage as you press, and the other sensor will decrease continuously. The reason there's two sensors and they are compared in the PCM for consistency is that a single dead sensor or broken wire can never be interpreted as a desire to go to FULL THROTTLE and turn you into a runaway Toyota. It goes into REP mode instead.
 

NinjuhhNutz

Original poster
Member
Oct 15, 2012
720
the roadie said:
The throttle body and accel pedal sensors are potentiometers - volume controls. Each one of the four sensors has a 5V on one side, ground on the other side, and a wiper to pick off the voltage that corresponds to the shaft position. The two sensors are connected to opposite ends of the 5V and ground wiring, so pushing the pedal will make one sensor increase in voltage as you press, and the other sensor will decrease continuously. The reason there's two sensors and they are compared in the PCM for consistency is that a single dead sensor or broken wire can never be interpreted as a desire to go to FULL THROTTLE and turn you into a runaway Toyota. It goes into REP mode instead.

gotcha...so I should check the voltage at the harness and make sure one of the wires is increasing in voltage as I press the pedal, to make sure the pedal sensor is working properly? seems pretty straight forward enough lol
 

NinjuhhNutz

Original poster
Member
Oct 15, 2012
720
the roadie said:
The throttle body and accel pedal sensors are potentiometers - volume controls. Each one of the four sensors has a 5V on one side, ground on the other side, and a wiper to pick off the voltage that corresponds to the shaft position. The two sensors are connected to opposite ends of the 5V and ground wiring, so pushing the pedal will make one sensor increase in voltage as you press, and the other sensor will decrease continuously. The reason there's two sensors and they are compared in the PCM for consistency is that a single dead sensor or broken wire can never be interpreted as a desire to go to FULL THROTTLE and turn you into a runaway Toyota. It goes into REP mode instead.

I probed both the 5v reference wires at the app, and they both read 5v, but neither change when I press the pedal. Is it simply a bad sensor? or could there be an alternate cause? Sorry, I know this is probably getting quite annoying by now, and having to bum rides everywhere I go is simply maddening to me. I appreciate all the help.
 

The_Roadie

Lifetime VIP Donor
Member
Nov 19, 2011
9,957
Portland, OR
I'm not near my manuals at the moment, but a potentiometer has THREE wires. A high side, low side, and the wiper. In this case, there are two potentiometers, and both of their high sides have a constant 5V. The low sides have constant zero volts. And it's the wipers that vary with pedal position. "Reference" is the term for an accurate voltage being sent TO the pedal sensor, and it should not vary.
 

NinjuhhNutz

Original poster
Member
Oct 15, 2012
720
the roadie said:
I'm not near my manuals at the moment, but a potentiometer has THREE wires. A high side, low side, and the wiper. In this case, there are two potentiometers, and both of their high sides have a constant 5V. The low sides have constant zero volts. And it's the wipers that vary with pedal position. "Reference" is the term for an accurate voltage being sent TO the pedal sensor, and it should not vary.

ah, that makes much more sense now. So I assume "app sensor 1 signal", pin 27 and "app sensor 2 signal" pin 41 are the 2 wipers?

http://i1065.photobucket.com/albums/u391/Kazp3rr/misc/wiring.jpg

what kind of variance should I be seeing on my dmm when the pedal is pressed?
 

The_Roadie

Lifetime VIP Donor
Member
Nov 19, 2011
9,957
Portland, OR
One goes up when the pedal is pressed, and the other goes down. The PCM reads both and decides if they're behaving with consistency. If one moves and the other stays constant, the PCM says "waitadarnminute" and sends the vehicle into the penalty box of REP behavior so it doesn't turn into a runaway Toyota.
 

NinjuhhNutz

Original poster
Member
Oct 15, 2012
720
the roadie said:
One goes up when the pedal is pressed, and the other goes down. The PCM reads both and decides if they're behaving with consistency. If one moves and the other stays constant, the PCM says "waitadarnminute" and sends the vehicle into the penalty box of REP behavior so it doesn't turn into a runaway Toyota.

so if they don't respond accordingly, ensure good connections to the sensor, and blame the sensor?
 

RayVoy

Member
Nov 20, 2011
939
Just tossing my 2 cents in here for consideration.

Keep in mind, everything worked fine until the install went bad and fuse(s) were blown.

Ask yourself, could the failed install have caused pots to burn on the throttle circuit?
 

NinjuhhNutz

Original poster
Member
Oct 15, 2012
720
RayVoy said:
Just tossing my 2 cents in here for consideration.

Keep in mind, everything worked fine until the install went bad and fuse(s) were blown.

Ask yourself, could the failed install have caused pots to burn on the throttle circuit?

I wondered if that lil facepalm moment could have fubar'd one of the sensors (or multiple) in some way...
 

NinjuhhNutz

Original poster
Member
Oct 15, 2012
720
so I finally got my hands on a scanner, the shop I just started working at has one, and let me bring it home to use on the TB
below are the codes I'm seeing, any input would be GREATLY appreciated.

P0740
P0753
P0785
P2761
P0526
P2123
P2128
P0000
P0000
P0C12
B0F41
P0C12
C0L0C
P11F5
C010C
C3R41
 

CaptainXL

Member
Dec 4, 2011
2,445
NinjuhhNutz said:

This code rings a bell. It's for the fan clutch. The reason you have pedal position codes along with this one is because the harness is damaged going to the fan clutch.

I would fix this first, clear the codes and go from there. A bunch of those codes are for the transmission. Make sure to change the fluid and filter to start.
 

NinjuhhNutz

Original poster
Member
Oct 15, 2012
720
CaptainXL said:
This code rings a bell. It's for the fan clutch. The reason you have pedal position codes along with this one is because the harness is damaged going to the fan clutch.

I would fix this first, clear the codes and go from there. A bunch of those codes are for the transmission. Make sure to change the fluid and filter to start.

Thank God it's just the harness...I can deal with that lol
shelling out $ for new parts on the other hand...not so easily done

will update tomorrow after I trace down the damaged wire and fix
Thanks
 

NinjuhhNutz

Original poster
Member
Oct 15, 2012
720
still no update, haven't really had the time to get out and work on the tb...buddy from work has a trailer and we're gonna toss it on there and haul it to the shop and see what we can figure out here in the next couple days...update to follow
 

NinjuhhNutz

Original poster
Member
Oct 15, 2012
720
sorry I've been a bit mia on this thread, haven't had a chance to really get out and work on it...things have been, "difficult" lately :frown:

I saw the comment abt the fan clutch, and this may sound like a trivial question, but what would be the most effective way of testing it and/or hunting down the problem?

my dmm shows the resistance between + and - probes, so I could use it that way to test continuity? I imagine it would get a bit tricky in some of those angles :confused:
 

The_Roadie

Lifetime VIP Donor
Member
Nov 19, 2011
9,957
Portland, OR
NinjuhhNutz said:
... what would be the most effective way of testing it and/or hunting down the problem?.
A Tech II tool can interrogate the fan clutch RPM sensor, and also command various fan clutch desired RPMs, by way of the PCM. Other than that, for a totally effective DIY home solution without a Tech II tool, you need an oscilloscope.
 

NinjuhhNutz

Original poster
Member
Oct 15, 2012
720
the roadie said:
A Tech II tool can interrogate the fan clutch RPM sensor, and also command various fan clutch desired RPMs, by way of the PCM. Other than that, for a totally effective DIY home solution without a Tech II tool, you need an oscilloscope.

ah, I'm back to that lol
I'm having quite a hard time finding a way to get my hands on a tech II, and funds aren't exactly lying around right now...
 

The_Roadie

Lifetime VIP Donor
Member
Nov 19, 2011
9,957
Portland, OR
When you ask "most effective", I'm compelled to answer how I'd do it with the tools I have lying around. I know most folks don't have a scope. :wink:

So use the schematics and run continuity testing from the PCM connectors to relay and then to the fan clutch harness, if all you have is a meter. A typical handheld meter can't see the Hall Effect sensor output, but you might be able to see the averaged AC PWM signal from the PCM to the fan clutch relay, and then to the fan clutch. Assume you already exchanged relays 45 and 46?
 

NinjuhhNutz

Original poster
Member
Oct 15, 2012
720
the roadie said:
When you ask "most effective", I'm compelled to answer how I'd do it with the tools I have lying around. I know most folks don't have a scope. :wink:

So use the schematics and run continuity testing from the PCM connectors to relay and then to the fan clutch harness, if all you have is a meter. A typical handheld meter can't see the Hall Effect sensor output, but you might be able to see the averaged AC PWM signal from the PCM to the fan clutch relay, and then to the fan clutch. Assume you already exchanged relays 45 and 46?

yes on the relays, and I'm afraid I've been dealing with this issue too long and my mind is a blur with it all.
At the cooling fan, the connector (pcm side) what readings should I be getting from the wires?

My readings:
Gry-5v
Blu-5v
Gry/Wht-(.05v)
Wht-13.5v


this is the harness connector AT the fan...so I assume that the wiring is ok? Have I been focusing all my attention in the wrong place?
 

NinjuhhNutz

Original poster
Member
Oct 15, 2012
720
I'm admitting defeat on this one...getting $750 for the tb for scrap metal :grin:
Lol but seriously, im going to the stealership tomorrow to find out what diagnostics&replacement part fees will be ::cries as I search all the corners of my wallet::

Sent from my SCH-I510 using Forum Runner
 

NinjuhhNutz

Original poster
Member
Oct 15, 2012
720
We have a grand total of...wait for it...>>>3<<< stop lights lol
Went by today, n they said $60 for diagnostics, which kibda posses me off because I know what hours into it, just don't have the resources...but w/e and $93/hr for labor.
The parts prices he gave me was what broke my heart
I'm easily looking at $600 if I take it there
 

NinjuhhNutz

Original poster
Member
Oct 15, 2012
720
FINALLY got it to a shop today. Not quite what I had planned, as I had already called down to the stealership and all that jazz...which was the plan until the roll-back I was going to use from my uncle decided it wanted a new tire all of a sudden :hissyfit:
So we were talking and he told me about the mechanic he uses for all his repairs/work, which was a friend of his. We stopped by and the guy offered to scan and check it out for free, and considering he replaced the head gasket, timing chain, and all the seals on my uncles truck for $300, I'm not gonna get butt raped when I get the bill either.
Expecting a phone call tonight or tomorrow morning, and we'll see what happens.
 

NinjuhhNutz

Original poster
Member
Oct 15, 2012
720
as much as I hate to resurrect this thread, I do want to give an update as to what was wrong with the truck.
A friend of mine is somehow related to the manager of the body shop at the dealership, and got my truck in and worked on rather quickly :eek:

Turns out the all the wiring was fine, and the pcm was the culprit??? The tech I talked to was very knowledgable about the TB and laughed at my relief when I told him he was the first person that actually knew what I was talking about with the hi/low reference and the 3 sensors...:confused:
anywho, new pcm's aren't cheap, and considering he has already ordered it, and hooked me up with almost NO labor costs, I'm not going to complain.

Does $160 to fix the failing fuel level sensor sound fair? He said something about getting it for half off because of the recall (this was the info passed to me by my buddy, I'll be there tomorrow to pick it up)
But, all in all...I'm just happy to have the truck back

A big thanks to everyone who chimed in trying to help!!!
 

Sparky

Member
Dec 4, 2011
12,927
Glad the problem is sorted. Ugh, what a pain.

$160 doesn't sound bad since the tank has to be dropped to get to it. That's not exactly a fun job to do.
 

Forum Statistics

Threads
23,321
Posts
637,914
Members
18,526
Latest member
GODSBROOKS

Members Online