I admit defeat on this one

[WarGawd]

seems like I am a bit overfilled. I note the warning on the indicator, but what exactly bad can happen from a bit too much fluid in the tranny? (that I should be worried about after putting 42000 miles on it this way)

Sorry, I can't make out the levels in the pics....

After putting another 100km on mine tonite in city driving, I had no shift issues to speak of. Wasn't as aggressive as I might normally be with all the kids on the road, but experience from the old Montana was that it would always drop out or have shifting troubles when low (I had a leak for a while).

So personally I am leaning more and more in the direction of mine having been overfilled. I have no idea for how long before I bought it in July. Which leaves me also wondering about long-term effects of overfilling - as far as I can tell there are no issues with mine, so I may have dodged a bullet, or it may just not be all that bad to have it overfilled. I'd like to hear opinions (and any facts) as well.

 

[meerschm]

View attachment 23621

this should be clearer. by cold, I mean mid afternoon sitting in the parking garage at work. procedure in owners manual says cold is 12 hours.

A little net research suggests that too little fluid can damage the transmission quickly.

too much by just a bit is not too bad. primary concern with moderate overfill is warmed fluid escaping from the tube, and catching fire on a hot exhaust manifold/cat.

way too much can interfere with operation. (Which I wonder about since the overfill out the fill tube concern would seem to take care of the gross overfill issue. perhaps the seal on the top of the indicator is to prevent this escape of fluid out the tube)

Guess I have to check again. I think I am probably fine, but may want to pull just a bit out (half a pint at a time)

Not sure there is a vent. if there was, there would be no pressure to push fluid up the tube.

 

[WarGawd]

this should be clearer. by cold, I mean mid afternoon sitting in the parking garage at work. procedure in owners manual says cold is 12 hours.

A little net research suggests that too little fluid can damage the transmission quickly.

too much by just a bit is not too bad. primary concern with moderate overfill is warmed fluid escaping from the tube, and catching fire on a hot exhaust manifold/cat.

way too much can interfere with operation. (Which I wonder about since the overfill out the fill tube concern would seem to take care of the gross overfill issue. perhaps the seal on the top of the indicator is to prevent this escape of fluid out the tube)

Guess I have to check again. I think I am probably fine, but may want to pull just a bit out (half a pint at a time)

Not sure there is a vent. if there was, there would be no pressure to push fluid up the tube.

Yep I can see that one a bit better (but the blue line you added still helps - my glasses must be old )

I did a google search for "4L60E transmission vent location", and it spit back a few articles where such was discussed - I scanned a few and apparently there is a vent near the top of the bell housing and I saw references to a tube that is sometimes attached. Most common theme in the threads I glossed over was about the fact that the vent will spew fluid when tranny is "grossly overfilled" and/or overfilled and excessively hot - purpose of the external tube was to direct fluid away from the exhaust and catalytic converter to reduce fire risk, BUT that said most felt that there should almost never be fluid expelled from the vent.

I didn't pursue it very far - that was enough to answer my question.

I had one minor shift "issue" this morning - as I went for a coffee and backed out of my parking spot, when I put it in drive it felt like it took just a slight bit longer to engage than usual. I may be imagining things or just hypersensitive due to being on high alert for the next few days as I decide if I believe it was overfilled or not.

 

[WarGawd]

Ok, so it's been a week since I lowered the fluid to the level where the stick says it's full. Put probably close to 1000km on it in that time under a wide variety of driving conditions. I've satisfied myself that I'm not seeing any real evidence of any shift issues that low levels would be expected to cause.

My conclusion is that is was overfilled when I bought it, and I'm even reasonably satisified that I know how it got overfilled when I did the flush & filter change. The level indication is a much more solid line now, far more easily readable... I guess I just couldn't get my head to accept the overfill indicated before because the level didn't have such a clearly defined line.

Bottom line: if the dipstick seems to indicate overfilled when hot on level ground per proper procedure, it more than likely is, and you can safely remove a bit and drive for a while to be sure

 

[WarGawd]

Went to check the fluid cold this morning so I could take some pics for reference for meerschm in another thread. Was parked on a slant, so I started it, drove less than a minute to get to a flatter spot, shut it off and waited a few minutes. Fig'd that'd be good enoough for comparison, level indicated 2 x's of the x-hatch above the lower hole in the dipstick. Didn't have camera for a pic

Took a drive for an hour or so to do some data logging for baseline reference info just before I change the t-stat and ECT sensor (and my new PCM4 PCM), and stopped at my standard flat level location for gas. Followed proper procedure, and I'll be damned if it isn't indicating about 1/2" above the hot full mark, with similar difficulty reading it as when I first started this thread.

Waited a few minutes with it idling to see if that might have any impact, but no noticeable change. With both the OEM cooler AND an external one, reasonably mild temps outside and no load from towing, I wouldn't have thought that temp change would have made that much of a difference.

So, I guess I'm still not completely sure what to think...will update with any new info.

 

[meerschm]

I think there is something funny going on, as discussed on the other thread, I had pulled a bit out, but it started falling out of lockup.


I put two quarts of fluid in, and now it reads at the bottom of the cold range running, first thing in the morning, temps around 50.

as discussed on the other thread, I had pulled a bit out, but it started falling out of lockup.

drive it a bit, and it still is over the full warm range, by about the distance between warm low and full. above the full mark. temps on cooler lines around 120 with an IR thermometer.

I picked up a filter with rubber gasket at NAPA yesterday, and five quarts of synthetic Valvoline DEXRON VI

next weekend I plan to drop the pan, look at where the indicator stick goes in the pan, and just put five quarts in as called for for a pan only change.

 

[WarGawd]

I think there is something funny going on, as discussed on the other thread, I had pulled a bit out, but it started falling out of lockup.


I put two quarts of fluid in, and now it reads at the bottom of the cold range running, first thing in the morning, temps around 50.

as discussed on the other thread, I had pulled a bit out, but it started falling out of lockup.

drive it a bit, and it still is over the full warm range, by about the distance between warm low and full. above the full mark. temps on cooler lines around 120 with an IR thermometer.

I picked up a filter with rubber gasket at NAPA yesterday, and five quarts of synthetic Valvoline DEXRON VI

next weekend I plan to drop the pan, look at where the indicator stick goes in the pan, and just put five quarts in as called for for a pan only change.

Great, that'll help us both - get as many pics as you can

 

[CaptainXL]

Are you guys checking the fluid right? Run it though all the gears then check it cold and in park at idle with engine running. Should be right at the cold mark at 60F.

Check to see if you have the regular or deep pan. This will make a difference in the expansion of the fluid.

My tube looks like this. And my dipstick is 32 5/8 inches from tip to bottom of rubber stopper.

View attachment 23878

 

[meerschm]

Are you guys checking the fluid right? Run it though all the gears then check it cold and in park at idle with engine running. Should be right at the cold mark at 60F.

Check to see if you have the regular or deep pan. This will make a difference in the expansion of the fluid.

My tube looks like this. And my dipstick is 32 5/8 inches from tip to bottom of rubber stopper.

View attachment 10514

My tube is attached as yours, but the dipstick measures 34 inches from the end to the top sealing surface of the stopper (where it sits on the tube)

what part number is on your indicator?

I have a deep pan. is a GM rebuilt trans. do any of the I6 swb 4x4 come with a shallow pan? does this change the 5 quarts for pan change?

 

[CaptainXL]

My tube is attached as yours, but the dipstick measures 34 inches from the end to the top sealing surface of the stopper (where it sits on the tube)

what part number is on your indicator?

I have a deep pan. is a GM rebuilt trans. do any of the I6 swb 4x4 come with a shallow pan? does this change the 5 quarts for pan change?

Not sure what your concern is. I don't see a problem. I just measured mine again like you did and we have the same dipstick.

Pan size should have no bearing on fluid level while idling, other than the addition of more fluid. Not the reading itself

 

[gmcman]

With both the OEM cooler AND an external one, reasonably mild temps outside and no load from towing, I wouldn't have thought that temp change would have made that much of a difference.

So, I guess I'm still not completely sure what to think...will update with any new info.

Can you bypass the aftermarket cooler and return the plumbing to stock fairly easy? I'm curious if the fluid will behave any different without that cooler in the loop.

I would think that under pressure it wouldn't matter but who knows.

 

[CaptainXL]

Can you bypass the aftermarket cooler and return the plumbing to stock fairly easy? I'm curious if the fluid will behave any different without that cooler in the loop.

I would think that under pressure it wouldn't matter but who knows.

No. It wouldn't matter. Fluid is incompressible. As long as the cooler has no air gaps in it then fluid level at the pan should be the same. Same goes for a pump with a supply and return. Whatever leaves needs to come back to fill the void.

Due to the pumping action its neccessary (for similar reasons) tocheck the fluid level with engine at idle in park.

 

[WarGawd]

Are you guys checking the fluid right? Run it though all the gears then check it cold and in park at idle with engine running. Should be right at the cold mark at 60F.

Check to see if you have the regular or deep pan. This will make a difference in the expansion of the fluid.

My tube looks like this. And my dipstick is 32 5/8 inches from tip to bottom of rubber stopper.

I'm guessing you just scanned this thread after noticing it had a fairly large number of replies for what should be a relatively simple question. I had posted earlier that I was aware of and followed the correct procedure. It was only after I experienced difficulty that I began to vary the method, trying to find anything that would work (because the level line I was always seeing was inconsistent, thin and variable). I also posted earlier that because of the difficulty, I went back and re-verified the procedure several times.

FWIW, from pages 364-367 of my PDF version of the '05 manual, this is the procedure I have been using {note the comments regarding use of cold check as a reference ONLY, I'll leave it up to you whether you think cold check is adequate}:

Spoiler

How to Check
Because this operation can be a little difficult,
you may choose to have this done at the dealership
service department.
If you do it yourself, be sure to follow all the instructions
here, or you could get a false reading on the dipstick.
Notice: Too much or too little fluid can damage
your transmission. Too much can mean that some
of the fluid could come out and fall on hot engine
part or exhaust system parts, starting a fire.
Too little fluid could cause the transmission to
overheat. Be sure to get an accurate reading if you
check your transmission fluid.
Wait at least 30 minutes before checking the
transmission fluid level if you have been driving:
• When outside temperatures are above 90°F (32°C).
• At high speed for quite a while.
• In heavy traffic — especially in hot weather.
• While pulling a trailer.
To get the right reading, the fluid should be at normal
operating temperature, which is 180°F to 200°F
(82°C to 93°C).

Get the vehicle warmed up by driving about
15 miles (24 km) when outside temperatures are above
50°F (10°C). If it is colder than 50°F (10°C), drive
the vehicle in THIRD (3) until the engine temperature
gage moves and then remains steady for 10 minutes.
A cold fluid check can be made after the vehicle
has been sitting for eight hours or more with the engine
off, but this is used only as a reference. Let the
engine run at idle for five minutes if outside
temperatures are 50°F (10°C) or more. If it is colder
than 50°F (10°C), you may have to idle the engine
longer. Should the fluid level be low during this cold
check, you must check the fluid hot before adding fluid.
Checking the fluid hot will give you a more accurate
reading of the fluid level.
Checking the Fluid Level
Prepare your vehicle as follows:
• Park your vehicle on a level place. Keep the engine
running.
• With the parking brake applied, place the shift lever
in PARK (P).
• With your foot on the brake pedal, move the shift
lever through each gear range, pausing for about
three seconds in each range. Then, position the shift
lever in PARK (P).
• Let the engine run at idle for three minutes or more.

Then, without shutting off the engine, follow these steps:
The automatic transmission
dipstick handle with the
transmission and lock
symbol is located in the
engine compartment on
the passenger’s side
of the vehicle.
See Engine Compartment Overview on page 5-12 for
more information on location.
1. Flip the handle up and then pull out the dipstick
and wipe it with a clean rag or paper towel.
2. Push it back in all the way, wait three seconds and
then pull it back out again. Check both sides of the
dipstick, and read the lower level.
3. If the fluid level is in the acceptable range, push the
dipstick back in all the way; then flip the handle
down to lock the dipstick in place.
...
Add fluid only after checking the transmission fluid while
it is hot. A cold check is used only as a reference.If the fluid level is low, add only enough of the proper
fluid to bring the level up to the HOT area for a hot
check. It does not take much fluid, generally less than
one pint (0.5 L). Do not overfill.
...

Pretty sure I have the deep pan. When I went to buy the filter for the flush, the question did come up, and at that point I wasn't 100% sure. Info from the parts guy where I bought it suggested that I needed to check for the step in the pan, which I did. I bought the deep pan filter. I didn't post it here, but I do have a pic showing the old & new, they were exact matches - I'm assuming if I had bought the wrong filter (IE filter intended for a deep pan) there would have been interference in replacing the pan if it was not actually the deep type.

LOL - took me a sec to realize that was MY pic, I thought you posted your own.

Not sure what your concern is. I don't see a problem. I just measured mine again like you did and we have the same dipstick.

Pan size should have no bearing on fluid level while idling.

My take is that his concern is the same as mine - neither of us seems to be able to get a reliable & repeatable reading following the stated procedure. After becoming convinced that mine was overfilled, I removed a bunch of fluid and drove it for a week. Then I wanted to compare the cold non-running level to the one meerschm posted, and mine was still significantly higher than his. Since at last measurement mine indicated right at the top of the hot full (per procedure) mark, I expected my cold level would match his, and I intended to post a pic for his reference. Now mine seems to be reading 1/2" overfull again, and I don't think I can even remove anymore because my transfer pump lost suction at this level previously (at what I believe would be very close to same temp.) So it has me a bit concerned that if heat really does account for that much expansion, it's possible it might actually be a little low in reality even though I can't really say I've noticed any shift issues.

Can you bypass the aftermarket cooler and return the plumbing to stock fairly easy? I'm curious if the fluid will behave any different without that cooler in the loop.

I would think that under pressure it wouldn't matter but who knows.

UGH! I had such a B*%CH of a time getting that external cooler line back on over the line flare I'd rather not go that route if I don't have to. I think I see where you might be going with that train of thought, and I can see how if the extra fluid from the external cooler drains back to the pan, then my cold level might well be significantly different from meerschm's, but like Capn more or less said once it's running and warm the rest of the system should be full and what remains in the pan should be the correct reserve capacity

 

[CaptainXL]

There should be two circles on the dipstick which retain the fluid and negate any need to quickly remove the dipstick.

Experience has taught me thats it's important to flip the dipstick over when checking fluid levels like the trans and oil to see if the reading is different. Go with the reading that makes the most sense. For instance if the front of the dipstick shows a high level but the back is low...go with the low reading an add more fluid.

I do know that being level when reading the fluid level is a must. It can make a big difference on th reading depending upon how much of an incline your on.

 

[WarGawd]

Not sure there is a vent. if there was, there would be no pressure to push fluid up the tube.

I just happened across this in the GM Service Info, thought it was worth posting, note the red highlighted comments:

Transmission Fluid Check
This procedure checks the transmission fluid level, as well as the condition of the fluid itself.

Notice: Always use the proper automatic transmission fluid listed. Using incorrect automatic transmission fluid may damage the vehicle.

Before checking the fluid level, perform the following:

Start the engine and park the vehicle on a level surface. Keep the engine running.
Apply the parking brake and place the shift lever in PARK (P).
Depress the brake pedal and move the shift lever through each gear range, pausing for about 3 seconds in each range. Then, move the shift lever back to PARK (P).
Allow the engine to idle 500-800 RPM for at least 1 minute. Slowly release the brake pedal.
Keep the engine running and observe the transmission fluid temperature (TFT) using the Driver Information Center (DIC) or a scan tool.
Using the TFT reading, determine and perform the appropriate check procedure. If the TFT reading is not within the required temperature ranges, allow the vehicle to cool, or operate the vehicle until the appropriate TFT is reached.
Cold Check Procedure
Important: Use the cold check procedure only as a reference to determine if the transmission has enough fluid to be operated safely until a hot check procedure can be made. The hot check procedure is the most accurate method to check the fluid level. Perform the hot check procedure at the first opportunity.

Use this cold check procedure to check fluid level when the TFT is between 27-32°C (80-90°F).


Start the engine and locate the transmission dipstick at the rear of the engine compartment, on the passenger's side of the vehicle.
Flip the handle up, and then pull out the dipstick and wipe the dipstick end with a clean rag or paper towel.
Install the dipstick by pushing it back in the dipstick tube all the way, wait three seconds and then pull it back out again.
Important: Always check the fluid level at least twice. Consistent readings are important to maintaining proper fluid level. If inconsistent readings are noted, inspect the transmission vent assembly to ensure it is clean and unclogged.

Keep the dipstick pointing down and check both sides of the dipstick, and read the lower level. Repeat the check procedure to verify the reading.
Inspect the color of the fluid on the dipstick. Refer to Fluid Condition Inspection in this procedure.
If the fluid level is below the COLD check line, add only enough fluid as necessary to bring the level into the COLD line. It does not take much fluid, generally less than one pint (0.5L). Do not overfill.
If the fluid level is in the acceptable range, push the dipstick back in all the way, then flip the handle down to lock the dipstick in place.
Perform a hot check at the first opportunity after the transmission reaches a normal operating temperature between 82-93°C (180-200°F).
Hot Check Procedure
Important: Use this procedure to check the transmission fluid level when the TFT is between 82-93°C (180-200°F). The hot check procedure is the most accurate method to check the fluid level. The hot check should be performed at the first opportunity in order to verify the cold check. The fluid level rises as fluid temperature increases, so it is important to ensure the transmission temperature is within range.

Start the engine and locate the transmission dipstick at the rear of the engine compartment, on the passenger side of the vehicle.
Flip the handle up, and then pull out the dipstick and wipe the dipstick end with a clean rag or paper towel.
Install the dipstick by pushing it back in the dipstick tube all the way, wait three seconds and then pull it back out.
Important: Always check the fluid level at least twice. Consistent readings are important to maintaining proper fluid level. If inconsistent readings are noted, inspect the transmission vent assembly to ensure it is clean and unclogged.

Keep the dipstick tip pointing down and check both sides of the dipstick. Read the lower level. Repeat the check procedure to verify the reading.
Inspect the color of the fluid on the dipstick. Refer to Fluid Condition Inspection.
A safe operating fluid level is within the HOT crosshatch band on the dipstick. If the fluid level is not within the HOT band, and the transmission temperature is between 82-93°C (180-200°F), add or drain fluid as necessary to bring the level into the HOT band. If the fluid level is low, add only enough fluid to bring the level into the HOT band.
Important: To assist in reaching the correct temperature range of 82-93°C (180-200°F), drive the vehicle in second gear at no more than 65 mph until the desired temperature is reached.

If the fluid level is low, add only enough fluid to bring the level into the HOT band. It does not take much fluid, generally less than one pint (0.5L). Do not overfill. Also, if the fluid level is low, inspect the transmission for leaks. Refer to Fluid Leak Diagnosis .
If the fluid level is in the acceptable range, push the dipstick back into the dipstick tube all the way, and then flip the handle down to lock the dipstick in place.
If applicable and if the vehicle is equipped, reset the transmission oil life monitor only if the fluid was changed.
Fluid Condition Inspection
Inspect the fluid color. The fluid should be red or dark brown.

• If the fluid color is very dark or black and has a burnt odor, inspect the fluid and inside of the bottom pan for excessive metal particles or other debris. A small amount of "friction" material in the bottom pan is a "normal" condition. If large pieces and/or metal particles are noted in the fluid or bottom pan, flush the oil cooler and cooler lines and overhaul the transmission. If there are no signs of transmission internal damage noted, replace the fluid filter assembly, repair the oil cooler, and flush the cooler lines.

• Fluid that is cloudy or milky or appears to be contaminated with water indicates engine coolant or water contamination. Refer to Engine Coolant/Water in Transmission .
© 2012 General Motors Corporation. All rights reserved.


So at the very least that raises the question of whether or not my different readings were really done close to the same temps after all. I have a calibrated thermocouple attachment for my DMM, where would people attach it for the best reference temp that also allows the meter to be somewhere in the engine bay? TC cable is ~4-5ft long....

 

[meerschm]

could be a vent problem. have to check that out. how the heck are you supposed to get to it?

one more thing that is possible from some discussion on fullsizechevy.com is that the filter seal may be leaking, pulling air with the fluid, these air bubbles take up space, which causes higher readings.

this thought is the other reason for me to drop pan, change filter, and take a look. I mentioned before that when I used my Pela to pull a bit of fluid out, I did when it was running, and noticed bubbles in the fluid.

 

[WarGawd]

Just thought I'd post a minor update to all this. Been monitoring things ever since I took out what appeared to be excess fluid. For the most part I am able to satisfy myself the level is close to proper, but there still seems to be a lot (+/- 1/2 L) of variability in level readings. This occurs when readings are taken at the exact same location, and seems to be more temperature dependent than I would have guessed. Still haven't found (or tried very hard) a place to secure a thermocouple to cross reference actual fluid temp at time of readings. During my last data logging run on a very cold day (-22 deg C), I drove 1/2 hour hwy, stopped for 10 min, drove 1/2 hr back, stopped at the same location and measured - showed it was 1/2 L low. Immediately took it on another highway circuit for 20 minutes, came back to that location and it showed right at the full mark.

It's a bit frustrating, as I don't think I could reliably detect a minor leak for a while, but as long as indicated levels generally remain in this ballpark, I'm satisfied I'm not so low on fluid as to be a real problem - and there are still no shift issues to speak of.