Transgo sk-4l60e post install problem

ACRC-Charlie

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Mar 30, 2016
7
NC
Hi! I installed the shift kit into the valve body along with sonnax billet pinless pistons. I skipped the 2nd servo section for now because I wasn't sure if I can get to it without pulling the transmission. Originally I had a very hard 1-2 shift and dirty fluid. Now I have everything back together but it wont shift past 2nd. The 1-2 shift is much smoother, so that is a positive I guess. Fluid is at the bottom of the crosshatch but I am told that low fluid would present different symptoms if it were an issue.
I will tear it back down and start over, but does anyone have any thoughts on where I went wrong here? Thanks so much.
 
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ACRC-Charlie

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Mar 30, 2016
7
NC
Couple more things now that I'm typing on a real keyboard...
2004 Trailblazer I6
I also got a transgo plate and new gaskets. The gaskets were marked right but not every hole was perfectly aligned. I had to clean them up a little. I'm not really confident about them, or their alignment once installed.
The instructions call for 7 checkballs in the VB and 1 in the case. However, I am almost certain my VB had 8 checkballs and 1 in the case. I reassembled it this way and that may have been an error. I attached a pic with the extra check ball circled.
 

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Gerbil21

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May 28, 2014
839
I would definitely go back in and check to make shure you followed all of trans go instructions, I have done 2 of these exact kits before with no problems.

Make shure all solenoids and electronics are connected, and check to make shure the springs aren't cocked or stuck in their bores. You should also check the accumulators and make shure they aren't stuck either.

Make shure you do follow the instructions in the transgo shift kit for the servo and do it for the vette. Servo that you should have gotten in the kit.

To do the servo you have to remove 4 bolts that cross through the trans cross member then loosen the bolts facing the floor on the driver side first by a little bit to allow it to lean to the passenger side when you lower thoose enough to gain space to get to the servo.

(Make shure you have a jack under the trans cross member at all times!)

The servo is a pain to get to and is up to you if you want to do it or not, if it shifts good then just follow the shift kit instructions for you servo, it should say which one to do.

As for the checkballs the 8th seems to be the one from the case side so make shure it goes back in the case, you can hold it in place aswell as the other 7 with some vasaline.
checkballsin4l60e10.jpg
 

Gerbil21

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May 28, 2014
839
Make shure you check shift solenoid B since it directly controls 2-3 shifts.

Also what does the trans do when it doesn't shift? Does it Rev up like neutral or does it just keep Reving up like it hasn't got the signal to shift?

And if the trans is still together, try shifting through the gears manually and in 3rd (or correctly called Drive, with the D indicator actually standing for overdrive)
 
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ACRC-Charlie

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Mar 30, 2016
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  1. It does the same thing when manual shifting.
It initially tried to shift with a rev up I think. Then I guess it stopped trying and stays in 2nd, as if I set the gear selector there.
Thanks!
 

ACRC-Charlie

Original poster
Member
Mar 30, 2016
7
NC
I am almost certain the 8th ball was in that spot when it came out. There's even a pit for it to rest in. That doesn't mean I should have left it, but maybe that it isn't the problem?
Thanks for the info about solenoid B. Maybe I bumped it and killed it while it was out? I think I might start there.
 

Sparky

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Dec 4, 2011
12,927
I've done 3 of those without issue now. Almost wish that I had an issue and fixed it so I could help with the problem but they all went according to the book and I'm not a trans pro, so not sure what exactly to suggest :/

Although, one thing is that check ball may have been there in the body because it had punched through the original separator plate (I've seen some fairly significant wear on the factory plate before). I do not recall all the details on mine but I don't recall a ball sitting in that location.
 
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Gerbil21

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May 28, 2014
839
I've done 3 of those without issue now. Almost wish that I had an issue and fixed it so I could help with the problem but they all went according to the book and I'm not a trans pro, so not sure what exactly to suggest :/

Although, one thing is that check ball may have been there in the body because it had punched through the original separator plate (I've seen some fairly significant wear on the factory plate before). I do not recall all the details on mine but I don't recall a ball sitting in that location.

Same here, check balls usually punch there self into the plate and get stuck there, if that is the 8th check ball that came from the case side then you definitely have to make shure it's installed correctly, as said before a small smear of vasaline will hold it in the case for install.

Also did you get new check balls or are you using the original ones? I would get new ones before installing, it's cheap insurance, and once again a smear of vasaline will hold them in place, they can move around easily and move from there spot when installing.
 

ACRC-Charlie

Original poster
Member
Mar 30, 2016
7
NC
Original check balls, although they show no wear that I could see. Better safe than sorry, I'll pick some up.
Regarding the schematic you posted above. Checkball #8 in that was pinned in. It could move but upward but the bottom of the hole is "tacked" (wrong term probably) so that it couldn't fall out. Checkball #9 wasn't in my instructions from Transgo, it said only one ball goes in the case. Is that something that varies in different 4l60e models?

Thanks again, this is making me feel better about having to do this again and my chances of getting it right. I normally get things right the first time. :-(
 

Gerbil21

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May 28, 2014
839
Original check balls, although they show no wear that I could see. Better safe than sorry, I'll pick some up.
Regarding the schematic you posted above. Checkball #8 in that was pinned in. It could move but upward but the bottom of the hole is "tacked" (wrong term probably) so that it couldn't fall out. Checkball #9 wasn't in my instructions from Transgo, it said only one ball goes in the case. Is that something that varies in different 4l60e models?

Thanks again, this is making me feel better about having to do this again and my chances of getting it right. I normally get things right the first time. :-(

If you haven't seen this yet it will be a great read
http://forums.offroadtb.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=4507
 

gmcman

Member
Dec 12, 2011
4,656
You should have 7 check balls in the valve body that you are attaching to the trans, the mystery #8 ball goes here next to the 1-2 accumulator and is held in place with vaseline.

You have to get the plate and gasket aligned as well.
 

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ACRC-Charlie

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Mar 30, 2016
7
NC
I think i had the ball that the arrow is pointing to. The other ball in that photo, must be the mystery ball? It's toward the bottom and slightly left of center in that photo.
"After this you're pretty much done, except for the pressure booster. It's located at the front of the transmission by the gear selector. Quite frankly I didn't have enough hands to document this well. But you need to remove the snap ring pictured, pull out the valve, swap out the two springs with the one included in the kit and then push it all back up in the transmission, and then hold it in place while you cram the snap ring back in. It kinda sucks."
My transgo instructions didn't mention any of this part. Am I missing a page, or is this from a different kit?
 

gmcman

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Dec 12, 2011
4,656
Honestly I haven't installed a shift kit in a 4l60E. When it was time to freshen things up I grabbed a separator plate from the dealer and installed a vette servo along with a pwm tcc eliminator valve, couple spare accumulator pistons but no spring swaps.

I would make certain the gaskets are installed correctly and aligned, all check balls accounted for.
 
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Reprise

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After reading this account, and the thread on the other site (thanks to Gerbil21 for posting it) - I don't know that I want to touch this now (I have the kit, and was ready to have a go at putting it in next week during my time off).

Guess I'll start looking for a shop to do this now, unless someone here (that's done one or more of these) would like the job (and I'd pay them for the service)
 

Sparky

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Dec 4, 2011
12,927
I've done it 3 times without issue. Too bad you're not closer I'd help you.
 
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Gerbil21

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After reading this account, and the thread on the other site (thanks to Gerbil21 for posting it) - I don't know that I want to touch this now (I have the kit, and was ready to have a go at putting it in next week during my time off).

Guess I'll start looking for a shop to do this now, unless someone here (that's done one or more of these) would like the job (and I'd pay them for the service)

I wouldn't be afraid to do the kit just be thorough and make shure you follow all the steps the instructions and the thread has, make shure you not only read it but understand it.

Also what kit do you and @ACRC-Charlie have, the typical shift correction kit from ctpowetrain is this: http://pages.ebay.com/motors/link/?nav=item.view&id=350397097868&alt=web

Is that what you guys have? If so then that is all you need except for new checkballs, i wouldnt leave the old ones since they do get stuck and are under constant wear. I got the torlon checkballs since they seal better on the plate and aren't supposed to get stuck in the plate either.
http://pages.ebay.com/motors/link/?nav=item.view&id=350353568123&alt=web

I've done two and it's not that hard, just make shure you make up your mind on the servo first. Even thought it's not necessary (and very hard) but if you do the vette servo make the correct changes and install while the pan is off to check band clearance with or with out the gold spacer supplied in the transgo kit, same goes with using the stock servo and modifying it.

All in all its not that hard just have to be cautious and look over everything twice. And clean as much as you can especially the mps (manifold pressure switch) they get full of dirt and it messes with its resistance which can give wrong temp readings and either give you wrong shifts and/or no shifts either all the time or just when hot or cold. This part is especially true for the op @ACRC-Charlie
 
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Reprise

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I apologize to the OP for hijacking his thread...

Gerbil21 - Thank you for replying - and to answer your questions -
I have that exact kit, and - I have the torlon checkballs, too. I even have the blue trans assembly lube that that Hiram guy uses in the You Tube video (and I've watched that a few times, too).

I will probably skip the Vette servo; maybe come back to it later if I want to firm up the shifts further, as my only problem right now is a harsh 1-2 shift, and no codes (it actually slammed the 1-2 one day during the hot summertime last year in stop-n-slo traffic, until I turned on the heater to let the engine cool - it got up just past the 210 mark before I got smart and turned off the a/c and turned on the heater). I've got a new Derale stacked plate that I'm going to install after the TransGo kit, so that should help with the heat issue. My fluid is in like-new condition - but I have the feeling the previous owner started feeling the harsh 1-2, replaced the fluid, found the shift was the same, and ditched the truck (it's got about 135K on it now; I got it with 128K).

My 'new' fear, if you will, is staking the accumulator housings - I'm not a machinist, and I am a bit vague on that. If I understand correctly, you stake the housing to prevent the bearing from coming out of the housing - but looking at the pics in the article you referenced from offroadtb (and thank you for that) - it just looks like he used the chisel to tap 3 notches in the ridge of the bore - ? I'm not sure how that prevents the bearing from coming out, and I'm afraid of doing it incorrectly (it would help to understand the theory behind it, and then I'd be more sure that I did it correctly, of course). I even did a little side lookup project on 'staking the bearing' - and found favorable info on V-groove staking, etc - which looks like what the pics show - but, again, don't understand the purpose behind it, and want to make sure I do it right.

Other than that, I'm 'ok' with the rest of it (it'll take me longer than a day for sure, but I will be very careful with it).
 
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Sparky

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You're basically just distorting the housing with a punch or something to lock them in place. I used a punch and a hammer to divot the housing and fold a bit of the aluminum over.
 
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Gerbil21

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May 28, 2014
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I apologize to the OP for hijacking his thread...

Gerbil21 - Thank you for replying - and to answer your questions -
I have that exact kit, and - I have the torlon checkballs, too. I even have the blue trans assembly lube that that Hiram guy uses in the You Tube video (and I've watched that a few times, too).

I will probably skip the Vette servo; maybe come back to it later if I want to firm up the shifts further, as my only problem right now is a harsh 1-2 shift, and no codes (it actually slammed the 1-2 one day during the hot summertime last year in stop-n-slo traffic, until I turned on the heater to let the engine cool - it got up just past the 210 mark before I got smart and turned off the a/c and turned on the heater). I've got a new Derale stacked plate that I'm going to install after the TransGo kit, so that should help with the heat issue. My fluid is in like-new condition - but I have the feeling the previous owner started feeling the harsh 1-2, replaced the fluid, found the shift was the same, and ditched the truck (it's got about 135K on it now; I got it with 128K).

My 'new' fear, if you will, is staking the accumulator housings - I'm not a machinist, and I am a bit vague on that. If I understand correctly, you stake the housing to prevent the bearing from coming out of the housing - but looking at the pics in the article you referenced from offroadtb (and thank you for that) - it just looks like he used the chisel to tap 3 notches in the ridge of the bore - ? I'm not sure how that prevents the bearing from coming out, and I'm afraid of doing it incorrectly (it would help to understand the theory behind it, and then I'd be more sure that I did it correctly, of course). I even did a little side lookup project on 'staking the bearing' - and found favorable info on V-groove staking, etc - which looks like what the pics show - but, again, don't understand the purpose behind it, and want to make sure I do it right.

Other than that, I'm 'ok' with the rest of it (it'll take me longer than a day for sure, but I will be very careful with it).


As per "staking the bearing" all you are doing is making shure the bearing (which is around the same size as the check balls) Stays in the bore, you only have to place it on the bore and tap it in, once it won't go further tap it with the chisel.

from my understanding staking it in with a chisel will help it go further in since you hitting the whole bore and helping it to "fall in" for a lack of better wording. This is the same as when something is stuck in a pipe and you tap the outside, this works better then hitting the ball only since that will have more of a shoving action for the bore which under temperature changes it may loosen and overtime the bearing may come out.


Now as per the 1-2 shift do you have any slipping Or is it just a fast shift?

When I got my envoy it had around 132k and a real bad 1-2 slip and harsh engagement. After the shift kit was installed the slip was to a bare minimal (can't loose all slip since stock programming will call for slip to have a soft shift) but the 1-2 shift was a very fast harsh shift, it felt like someone hit the car in the rear. I drove it like this for a bit and adapted to it by lifting off the gas when it shifted to ease the shift.(also hard shifts aren't that bad on the trans, it saves clutches and bands by reducing shift times which in turn reduces slipping and heat, but overly hard shift can wear and or break hard parts like the sunshell or planateries)

I then went back and installed the vette servo and the transgo springs and made the mods to the stock parts as per transgo instructions (I did not install the spacer since I didn't drop the pan at the time and was having problems with reinstall). After the servo it shifted much better, it still had minimal slip but now just a small bump to the 1-2 shift, but it felt positive not draggy or harsh. The rest of the shifts are still smooth and you don't notice them with very minimal slip.

Also the transgo kit has the tcc pwm eliminator which makes Torque converter lockup very nice, engagement feels like a 5th gear. It does this by removing the pwm(pulse width modulation) part which basically makes it in to a on-off control rather then the stock partial engagement.
The pwm modulates the tcc (torque converter clutch) to a partial engagement in order to have smooth tcc apply and to apply it in lower gears and lower speeds. The stock tcc apply is fine but becomes a noticeable problem when you get a bumpy feel on the highway or rpm surge because of the tcc not being able to go 100% locked up since the bore in the valve body wares out. the pwm part of the tcc tries to apply and creates that feeling and the RPM to surge, that is why you would need to replace it.

I added the part about the tcc pwm in for you and the op, and to further my point of if you are unshure then you should read over all information you have at least twice and read up about it and understand what you are doing and why so when something happens youll actually understand why it's happening

And one more thing to help you understand and learn is a scan tool. Any cheap good rated Amazon obd2 scanner is just fine to see live data with the app I highly recommend "car gauge pro" (android) total cost for the scanner and app should be around $20. With the app you can see the transmissions tap cells. Tap cells are basically a x/y chart the PCM uses to calculate engine rpm/torque to trans. Line pressure for every shift, looking at the tap cells for the 1-2 shift will show you how much pressure it's adding when it shifts and give you a idea of wear on the trans. (Side note: this is how the trans. Keeps shift quality similar through out its life And compensates for wear in the trans.) Also seeing 1-2 shift time and 1-2 shift error will also give insight on whats happening. 1-2 shift time being the time the shift took and 1-2 shift error being the diffrence in time it took to shift versus the time the PCM commanded.

And I now have 145k, and shure don't drive like miss Daisy and i live in NYC but the fluid still looks and smells like new, so that's a big win for the transgo kit!
 
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Reprise

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My 1-2 does have slip, as it seems 'late', especially when cold. And when it does come, it feels kinda like you described - like you got rear-ended. (2-3 & 3-4 feel 'normal', which in GM-parlance is a bit on the soft side - I had a '98 Grand Prix with a 700R4 (IIRC) - you could barely feel the thing shift, under light- to normal throttle)

I have tried lifting throttle to tame the shift, but have noticed that I seem to have flare - put my foot back on the throttle and it's as if it were in neutral, until I lift off again and let the rpms come back down. So I endure the harsh 1-2. I tend to drive with a light foot, so I probably feel it more than if I were to use more throttle.

Sounds like the real cure for the 1-2, at least when you did yours, was breaking down and doing the servo. The guy who did the write-up on the other site had a good point when he did the servo before finishing his separator plate (although if you do it in two steps, it's a second pan drop anyway, to be safe) So I guess I'll take the extra time to do that, if I can manage it.

Thanks again for taking the time to go over this. I'll post back with results, once I get done (hopefully later this week). I think the other guy did a decent job with the pics, although maybe I'll take a couple of my own.

Hope the OP gets his issue sorted out w/o too much trouble.
 
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Gerbil21

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May 28, 2014
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My 1-2 does have slip, as it seems 'late', especially when cold. And when it does come, it feels kinda like you described - like you got rear-ended. (2-3 & 3-4 feel 'normal', which in GM-parlance is a bit on the soft side - I had a '98 Grand Prix with a 700R4 (IIRC) - you could barely feel the thing shift, under light- to normal throttle)

I have tried lifting throttle to tame the shift, but have noticed that I seem to have flare - put my foot back on the throttle and it's as if it were in neutral, until I lift off again and let the rpms come back down. So I endure the harsh 1-2. I tend to drive with a light foot, so I probably feel it more than if I were to use more throttle.

Sounds like the real cure for the 1-2, at least when you did yours, was breaking down and doing the servo. The guy who did the write-up on the other site had a good point when he did the servo before finishing his separator plate (although if you do it in two steps, it's a second pan drop anyway, to be safe) So I guess I'll take the extra time to do that, if I can manage it.

Thanks again for taking the time to go over this. I'll post back with results, once I get done (hopefully later this week). I think the other guy did a decent job with the pics, although maybe I'll take a couple of my own.

Hope the OP gets his issue sorted out w/o too much trouble.

It does sound like the servo will help out in your case. the trans. Will adapt to the shift to compensate for wear but it only does this on adaptable shifts so quick throttle changes makes it disregard the adapted shifts which is why it shifted like that. The vette servo directly affects the 1-2 shift by applying and holding the band stronger than stock reducing slip.
 
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Sparky

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FWIW my 02 has always had a bit of a delayed 1-2 shift when cold, almost like it holds it a bit long and then a bit abruptly shifts. It has done it since I got the truck nearly 6 years ago with 112k on it (215k now or thereabouts) and after the kit as well. It only does it the first and maybe second time it does a 1-2 if it is cold enough. Spring/summer/fall it doesn't usually do it. I just let up on the gas a bit around the normal 1-2 shift point and it doesn't hold it.

Not sure why it does that, but after over 100k miles later I don't think it is necessarily harmful.
 
Apr 3, 2016
1
USA
For what it is worth, I helped a friend out with his 4l60E, he accidentally mixed up the position of the 1-2 and 3-4 springs one is thicker and heaver the other is always (almost always, a particular color) after the transmission was installed, it would not engage the input drum 3-4 clutch pack, because the incorrect spring had been installed in the incorrect position, since the accumulator was unable to engage. The input drum piston would not engage because the accum could not function, (too much resistance in the spring)

There are a number of reasons, why this might happen, (the first I would look at would be, the accumulator piston, (seal) operation also check the spring for operational failure.
 

ACRC-Charlie

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Mar 30, 2016
7
NC
Just wanted to update here. Thanks for the advise, everyone.
So I found the 3-2 valve and spring in my work area. :-/ It must have slipped out after I put it in, but before I put the solenoid in. It was in a pile with discarded springs and pistons. Pretty obvious what the problem was as soon as I saw the parts. OOPS
With that corrected, shifts were much improved at first. I still had a "harder than i like" 1-2 shift at certain speeds (20-30mph). I thought the computer would adapt and maybe make that smoother but strangely, it seems to be getting worse.
As I said, I skipped the servo because I didn't want to lower the transmission. I'm going to follow what Girbil21 has described now (thanks girbil). Since I have to drop the pan to check band clearance, I will try to ensure all the valves move smoothly without dropping the valve body.

The pressure plate seemed clean, but it's mostly smooth on both sides. Is there a place I should focus on?
Pressure regulator valve is untouched, should I remove it? replace it?
 

Gerbil21

Member
May 28, 2014
839
Just wanted to update here. Thanks for the advise, everyone.
So I found the 3-2 valve and spring in my work area. :-/ It must have slipped out after I put it in, but before I put the solenoid in. It was in a pile with discarded springs and pistons. Pretty obvious what the problem was as soon as I saw the parts. OOPS
With that corrected, shifts were much improved at first. I still had a "harder than i like" 1-2 shift at certain speeds (20-30mph). I thought the computer would adapt and maybe make that smoother but strangely, it seems to be getting worse.
As I said, I skipped the servo because I didn't want to lower the transmission. I'm going to follow what Girbil21 has described now (thanks girbil). Since I have to drop the pan to check band clearance, I will try to ensure all the valves move smoothly without dropping the valve body.

The pressure plate seemed clean, but it's mostly smooth on both sides. Is there a place I should focus on?
Pressure regulator valve is untouched, should I remove it? replace it?

That's good to hear that everything is working, the 1-2 shift will always be the firmest but either the trans will adapt softer or you will either way it would take some time. Also I would do the boost valve since it raises overall pressure and allows the trans to work with that not the parts asking for more then what it wants to give and the servo too it made the biggest difference for me
 

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