Tow package

Moneymaker

Original poster
Member
Sep 10, 2012
9
Hey guys.
First off- I did a search and could not find answer on many sites.
2005 4.2 trailblazer LT
111k. G80 3.73
3 inch suspension lift, z71 rear springs, 32 tires and 1" spacers
Tranny cooler and tune.

I'm going to be towing 4500 pound boat and trailer with gear up to 5000 pounds.
My hitch and ball are rated to 6k
And the trailblazer can pull 5200.
The sticker on the tow package says 4000 without a weight distribution hitch. If I have one 7200...
Anyone towing more than 4000 without wieght distribution hitch and why does my manual say 5200 without telling me I need the weight distribution hitch?
What can I expect if I don't use weight disstrubtion hitch?
Well my larger tires and lift, reduce my pulling power?
 

linneje

Member
Apr 26, 2012
404
First off, there is no way you can tow 7200 even with a weight distribution hitch, as you have an I6. I could be wrong but I think your limit is about 6500.

Second, regardless of your actual tow limit, you should not be trying to pull anything substantial (over 4000) without a wd hitch, I can tell you with a little experience. I have always used one, but I did try it briefly (less than a mile) just to check it out, and it did not go well. I am not sure about the lift, you would have to get advice from someone who is lifted.
 
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coolasice

Member
Oct 27, 2013
1,019
Northern Maine
from the manual Max Trailer Weight 5600lbs.


and also:

"If you will be pulling a trailer that, when loaded, will
weigh more than 4,000 lbs (1 814 kg) be sure to use a
properly mounted weight-distributing hitch and sway
control of the proper size. This equipment is very
important for proper vehicle loading and good handling
when driving. Always use a sway control if the trailer
will weigh more than these limits. You can ask a
hitch dealer about sway controls."
 

djthumper

Administrator
Nov 20, 2011
14,950
North Las Vegas
Moneymaker said:
Hey guys.
First off- I did a search and could not find answer on many sites.
2005 4.2 trailblazer LT
111k. G80 3.73
3 inch suspension lift, z71 rear springs, 32 tires and 1" spacers
Tranny cooler and tune.

I'm going to be towing 4500 pound boat and trailer with gear up to 5000 pounds.
My hitch and ball are rated to 6k
And the trailblazer can pull 5200.
The sticker on the tow package says 4000 without a weight distribution hitch. If I have one 7200...
Anyone towing more than 4000 without wieght distribution hitch and why does my manual say 5200 without telling me I need the weight distribution hitch?
What can I expect if I don't use weight disstrubtion hitch?
Well my larger tires and lift, reduce my pulling power?
Your larger tires negates anything said in the manual, simply because of the loss in torque. You are likely limited to what a 3.42 geared rig would be able to haul.

The others have covered everything else.
 

Bow_Tied

Member
Dec 21, 2014
453
London, ON
Am I mis-remembering - I thought the weight distribution hitch was to cover allowable tongue weight? Obviously as the trailer weight increases so does the tongue weight, so they are connected, but I thought the WDH was to mitigate tongue weight limits as the trailer weight approached the towable limits and had no other impact on the gross trailer weight allowable.
 

coolasice

Member
Oct 27, 2013
1,019
Northern Maine
Bow_Tied said:
Am I mis-remembering - I thought the weight distribution hitch was to cover allowable tongue weight? Obviously as the trailer weight increases so does the tongue weight, so they are connected, but I thought the WDH was to mitigate tongue weight limits as the trailer weight approached the towable limits and had no other impact on the gross trailer weight allowable.
since tongue weight is 10-15% gross trailer weight, a 4000lbs trailer would have a tongue weight of 400-450lbs, thus any heavier trailer would put tongue weight over the limit requiring a wdh.
 

littleblazer

Member
Jul 6, 2014
9,265
Tounge weight on something like a boat trailer can be changed by adjusting roller position winch and axel position. My tounge weight on my trailer (probably 3500lbs no weight distribution) is around 200-250lbs because my dad likes being able to grab the tounge and pull and move and lift the trailer by hand. Since its slightly higher then the reciver on the tb, once lowered it's around 300 because you have a slight tilt now. 300 is a little light for our trucks, makes the ride a little bouncy on large bumps. Just remember, you can pull anything with anything. The problem is stopping more than anything.
 

Bow_Tied

Member
Dec 21, 2014
453
London, ON
coolasice said:
since tongue weight is 10-15% gross trailer weight, a 4000lbs trailer would have a tongue weight of 400-450lbs, thus any heavier trailer would put tongue weight over the limit requiring a wdh.
that was my point. The OP indicated it was a function of trailer weight which I didn't think was directly the case.
 

coolasice

Member
Oct 27, 2013
1,019
Northern Maine
too little tongue weight ratio can cause the trailer to sway at speed, too heavy of a ratio will cause the trailer to dive on braking pushing the rear of the tow vehicle down and raising the front removing primary braking traction (lifting weight from front tires).
 

HARDTRAILZ

Moderator
Nov 18, 2011
49,665
I do not have issues towing lifted FYI. Not too much over 3000 typically, but I would toss 5K back there prolly. Was gonna hault the tractor on the new 20 footer, but dad had it hooked to his Silverado already. Did think it would have been a nice test. I am sure it will get hitched up with the tractor or bobcat at some point this summer.
 

Sparky

Member
Dec 4, 2011
12,927
You're probably OK to tow what you have, but you're also likely at the limit also. Definitely use a WD hitch.

The larger tires will affect towing capacity a bit, likely to how a 3.42 truck would be, but should still be OK I'd think. Watch your trans temps, keep it in 3rd if necessary. Your aux trans cooler should help a fair bit with that part though.

Not sure where 7200 comes from... I would never put that much weight behind a GMT360.

I assume you have a brake controller for the trailer brakes.
 

{tpc}

Member
Jan 22, 2014
359
The sticker that is actually on the hitch near the receiver is telling you what strength that piece of metal is rated for. The specifications in your owners manual tell you what GM says the truck is rated for. You want to go with the specs in the manual, not whats on the hitch. Assuming of course this is all oem equipment.

As to what a lift and tires and all that do, I got nothing for ya. Maybe you could see what load rating the tires are rated for. I would guess they would need to have as much as stock oem tires.
 

HARDTRAILZ

Moderator
Nov 18, 2011
49,665
Most offroad tires are rated higher than stock.
 

Moneymaker

Original poster
Member
Sep 10, 2012
9
Hey thanks guys! Sucks a cant just hook up and go like my dad did when I was a kid.

The tires on the truck are rated high.
I'll still have to do some calculations on wieght, and don't have brake controller yet.

The torque will be an issue I think cause I have to push it in 2nd to get up to hwy speed. I'm anxious to see how it does, but don't want to run off the road cause I'm not smart about it.
I'll keep u posted.
 

{tpc}

Member
Jan 22, 2014
359
The thing you have going for you (I think? lol) is that the boat will be behind the truck, unlike my TT that sticks up above the truck. Grab a sheet of plywood and run down the street with it lol. The 3.73 gearing will help as well.

FWIW, we tried to pull our trailer with the wifes 4.2 voy with the 3.42 gears. It could do it, as long as you stayed under 50 mph. It only took one long trip for me to get the tahoe...even that isn't perfect, but much better than the voy.
 
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Moneymaker

Original poster
Member
Sep 10, 2012
9
So,I checked with boat dealership and the trailer repair shop and they both agreed that the boat has its own weight on its axles so there would be no need for a Weight distribution hitch.
Also the boat trailer comes with surge breaks on one of the axles So that's a nice fix there.
Next thing to do is just hook up and wiegh it.
 

{tpc}

Member
Jan 22, 2014
359
Moneymaker said:
So,I checked with boat dealership and the trailer repair shop and they both agreed that the boat has its own weight on its axles so there would be no need for a Weight distribution hitch.
Also the boat trailer comes with surge breaks on one of the axles So that's a nice fix there.
Next thing to do is just hook up and wiegh it.
Ok, step one, never ever trust anything the dealership says. Go there and tell them you want to upgrade to a 7500 lb boat. They will likely tell you that your truck can tow it "no problem".

I honestly don't know who you talked with at the trailer shop, but it sounds to me as they didn't even know what your talking about.

Now maybe all you need is the surge brakes, as I can't see there being both electric brakes and surge brakes on a trailer but I know zero about boats. In fact just because its going to be submerged maybe there are not electric brakes....

As for the need of the WDH. That remains to be seen. If you look in your manual, it will tell you that anything over a certain weight will need a WDH for towing. The fact that a trailer has its own axles makes zero difference with if you need a wdh.

A wdh transfers the weight from the rear axle of the truck to the front axle of the truck so you don't overload that one axle. Thats the idea behind it. Can you tow without one? Sure. Doesn't make it safe for you to do so, and if your overloading the rear axle, your truck is likely to need repairs that may have been unnecessary.

The only real way to know what is going on is to have everything weighed at a cat scale. Then you know exactly how much your pulling and what weight is on each axle. But if your manual says above 4k you need a wdh, and your at 4500 dry? I'm thinking you will need one.

Just my .02 cents.
 

Moneymaker

Original poster
Member
Sep 10, 2012
9
Lol I agree with not trusting dealership but I was not even at same one an just asked about wdh on boats and told him what my tow package said. And he said like u did that the purpose of a WDH is to take weight off the rear. because it's a boat there should only be a few hundred pounds on the hitch because of the trailer design. Therefore not much weight on the rear of the truck.
The trailer shop said because I have upgraded springs and shocks that would help out a lot giving me extra weight carrying in the rear.
They said if I was towing a trailer with weight on the rear of the truck I would need one. but with the boat it's completely different....



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On Jun 9, 2015, at 10:01 AM, GMTNation <no.reply@gmtnation.com> wrote:

GMTNation

Moneymaker,

{tpc} has just posted a reply to a topic that you have subscribed to titled "Tow package".

So,I checked with boat dealership and the trailer repair shop and they both agreed that the boat has its own weight on its axles so there would be no need for a Weight distribution hitch.
Also the boat trailer comes with surge breaks on one of the axles So that's a nice fix there.
Next thing to do is just hook up and wiegh it
 

{tpc}

Member
Jan 22, 2014
359
No worries. Like I said, I know nothing about boats. IMO, the same rules apply, but it's your truck and your boat.

I will just add, next time your in there ask them to explain what the difference is if you have a 4500 lb boat with 2 axles in the middle and a 4500 lb trailer with 2 axles in the middle with how it relates to weight on the ball of the truck.

This weight is called tongue weight. Usually you want 10-15% on the ball of the truck, thats 675 lbs on the high end.

What I want to know is his explanation of how that 675 lbs differs from trailer to boat. Same weight item, same 2 axles, identical locations. Same basic A-frame style frame right? So what exactly is the difference?

Edit: I'll just toss in that if your larger tires negate the 3.73 gearing to make is more like a 3.42, anything over short 20 mile trips around town is not going to be much fun pulling 5k lbs around, unless your trips are all typically under 50 mph.

Been down that road with my trailer and the wifes envoy xl...with a tranny cooler and wdh. Fine for short trips under 50 mph, but not much more than that. Food for thought.

And I missed the part about being able to put less tongue weight on there by adjusting the winch. I still think your going to want that 10-15% on it though.
 

HARDTRAILZ

Moderator
Nov 18, 2011
49,665
I tend to agree. We can pull our tractor or bobcat forward or backward and get weight above axles and off the truck some, but it still has significant load on it. Similar weight and i would not go without a brake controller and brakes on both trailer axles, but maybe boats are black magic and have different rules.
 

Sparky

Member
Dec 4, 2011
12,927
Not sure why it matters if the trailer has a boat on it or any other load. Yes, the weight on the trailer axles, but you're still having to pull that weight around.

I can understand the use of surge brakes vs electric brakes on a trailer that gets routinely submerged in the water however.
 

Moneymaker

Original poster
Member
Sep 10, 2012
9
I agree with the replies.
I don't have answer for why both places said there would be very little wieght in the ball.
The trailer place was like " u have s class five hitch that can pull up to 7600 so as long as ur not going over the tounge wieght limit u don't need the WDH." He said a sway hitch could help if needed. Depending how it pulls at higher speed."

I looked at a lot of boat trailers now and surge brakes with 1of2 axels is common with 21 boats.
No brake controller needed.

I'm hoping my TB can pull it at speed for 1-2 hrs to get to closest water. I may not want to push it over the sierras from what I'm hearing.
 

Bow_Tied

Member
Dec 21, 2014
453
London, ON
That troubles me. You can put a class 5 hitch on a corolla doesn't mean it can pull 7500 or whatever. The hitch exceeds the capacity of the tow vehicle and one must use the lower rated item in calculations.


If the boat is positionable on the trailer it can help ensure the tongue weight isn't too high or too little. However, the min tongue weight should boat + trailer x10%. If that number is at or exceeding the tongue weight mentioned in your manual for a wdh then one us required regardless of hitch specs or what a dealerships says. I think that echoes what others are saying in this thread. Best of luck. :smile:
 

DocBrown

Member
Dec 8, 2011
501
There's a couple of things I didn't see discussed here that I think are important.

First, most boats usually don't need a WD hitch for some of the reasons the dealer said they don't. It really depends on how much weight is taken off the front wheels (see additional comments below).

Ignore the sticker on the hitch. The dealer is blowing smoke on that one. That's for the hitch itself. The TB's limits are far lower than that. The TB's limit is something like 650# dead weight, and with a WD hitch is 920# or there abouts. That limit is determined by the limits of the RR GAWR and the frame of the truck.

A WD hitch does more than take weight off the rear end. Even with a WD hitch you will still have some rear squat. What's important is that It puts weight back on the front wheel to restore steering control. Ever tow in a heavy crosswind with reduced steering control? Not fun. The GM spec is to measure the front fender at stock height. Put the trailer on and measure again. Then attach the WD hitch and adjust it so that the front fenders are back to stock height. Anything above that and you'll notice it. TBs have soft rear suspensions and are subject to lots of rear squat with even small amounts of weight.

The towing charts listed by places like Trailer Life are generalizations and not at all accurate. Everything you need to know about your towing limits are at your fingertips. GM owners manuals have a towing chart in that breaks out towing capacity and GCWR by engine type and option packages. The RPO sticker in your glove box has all the codes you need to validate what options are on your vehicle. Finally, look at the tire/weight sticker in your driver's door. It shows your available payload. That's the amount of weight the truck can carry. Already calcualted in is the driver and a full tank of gas.

Payload is a critcal number that most people overlook. If your payload is 1200#, and your 3 passengers and gear in the truck weigh 500#, that leaves 700# of payload. Sounds pretty good? Now subract the tongue weight of the trailer, in this case likely 500#. Now you have 200# left. It runs out real fast. Moreover you have to subtract the weight of everything in the truck from the rated towing capacity, so with 500# of people and gear your towing capacity drops to 4700#. This is a really big issue with travel trailers because of the heavier tongue weight. That's why I went to a full size PU.

Finally, never exceed the GCWR. That's the weight of everything, truck, trailer, occupants, and "stuff". It's probably around 11,000# for you but check the manual.

You should be fine for 1-2 hour trips. If you start doing any more than that I'm thinking you'll be looking at full size trucks.
 
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{tpc}

Member
Jan 22, 2014
359
I think doc has covered anything that might have been left. There is also something to be said for how comfortable you feel with it as well. I mean a setup might be perfectly within specs, yet I wouldn't feel comfortable driving it around vs someone else.

At the end of the day the OP may come back and say it pulls like a dream! Or he may say he is looking for a fullsize. Its like my situation with the voy...it could do it, but I wasn't comfortable at all while doing it, so I got a tahoe. But someone else might have been ok with the voy. I guess it didn't help that is was my first time ever towing...but I'll never go back to the voy for stuff like that again.
 

de3jr88

Member
Dec 8, 2011
45
Airdrie, Alberta, Canada
I wouldnt mind Throwing in my 2 cents. First, the Trailvoy platform with the i6 engine is rated for around 5200 - 6200 pounds depending on your gearing. These are the limits set by the manufacturer and take into consideration the gross combined vehicle weight. The factory hitch is rated for 4000 pounds when 'dead weight' towing. The factory hitch is rated for 7600 pounds when using a WD system. These are the safe working loads set by the manufacturer of the hitch and industry standards. The dead weight numbers are what they are for many factors including fabrication material and the bolts used to mount it to the frame. 4000pounds may seem low, but again these are the 'safe working limits'.

By design, I dont know if you can use a WD on a boat trailer due to the long straight tongue. Thats why you usually see boats towed with a class IV/V hitch. They are built to handle the dead weight.

A WD system changes the way that the weight is managed over the axles of the tow vehicle and the trailer. That is why its capabilities are rated higher than a dead weight tow.

Finally, springs and tires may be capable of carrying more weight but the drivetrain they are attached to does not change. Bigger tires need more power to move and may reduce your towing capability.

Sorry for the long post, hope you were able to safely move your unit.
 

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