Timing chain guide tap

Jrp79

Original poster
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May 19, 2019
26
Gorgia
Got a video of one of my timing chain guides and cant figure out how to post it.
Had a slight top end tap along with a bearing knock. Thought the tap was a lifter but all lifters checked out good. One of my chain guides look to be falling apart and that could have been the tap but i want input and cant get the video of it posted here
 

Jrp79

Original poster
Member
May 19, 2019
26
Gorgia
Got a video of one of my timing chain guides and cant figure out how to post it.
Had a slight top end tap along with a bearing knock. Thought the tap was a lifter but all lifters checked out good. One of my chain guides look to be falling apart and that could have been the tap but i want input and cant get the video of it posted here
Here is a link to the video on YouTube
 
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Mooseman

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Dec 4, 2011
25,257
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It could be that or the chain tensioner. Did it do the noise mostly at idle and would stop as soon as you gave it gas? Did it seem to come from the top front of the valve cover?
 

mrrsm

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You have a MAJOR Engine Repair Project going right now that probably would be better served if you can ask a Moderator to consolidate all of your recent questions about this work and park all of these separate, but related issues under One Umbrella. Otherwise, your separate, staggered inquiries might get missed as being isolated events ...rather than being Parts of this WHOLE Repair Project. Examples of this would be the recent individual Threads you have going concerning the following issues:

(1) The Removal issues of the Crankshaft (...Asked and Answered)
(2) The GM OEM Part Numbers for the Crankshaft and Con-Rods (...Asked and Answered)
(3) This latest issue concerning the Timing Chain Guides being loose... Answered as Follows:

This is an image of the Timing Set for the GM 4.2L LL8 Engine that shows three distinct Timing Chain Guides One on TOP, One on the Driver's Side and One on the passenger Side of the Engine, One Timing Chain, One Cam Phaser Exhaust Sprocket, One Intake Sprocket, One Crankshaft Sprocket and One Timing Chain Tensioner:

GM42LATLASTIMINGSETUP.jpg
The Timing Chain guides being loose are symptomatic of having either Worn Down and Dried out... or Fractured-Cracked and Broken Nylon Chain Guides. This repair requires replacing the ENTIRE Set ...and the recommended replacement kit is made by Cloyes and costs around $160.00 from Summit and other vendors like RockAuto (RA):

88818

Before you begin to take apart anything related to the Timing Chain Guide R&R... Your next "Port of Call" is to view the very Excellent "How To Replace the I-6 Timing Chain Tensioner" Thread linked below that was created by @Mooseman. While reading over his Instructions... you should also view the bottom of any of his Posts for his Signature Line to obtain more information on How to Download a Digital OEM Factory Service Manual for your specific Vehicle. You WILL Need this Manual:


After viewing the Video you added here, the Motor displayed the condition of having much Baked on, Carboned Up Gas Gum residue covering the front of your Engine. This strongly indicates Excessive Piston Ring Blow By from High Mileage and from Infrequent Oil Changes. These engines demand using Mobil1 5W-30 Motor Oil or some comparable Full Synthetic and Very High Quality Oil Filters as well. This next image shows the very same area viewable on an Engine that had 160,000 Miles before the Owner totaled the vehicle in an accident. This is generally what the inside of any Atlas Engine should look like that has received Regular Oil Changes at 3,000 Miles:

42762051204_03f8822cf6_z.jpg

If you decide to replace the entire Timing Set... Spray down and Scrub off that entire area with Berryman B-12 Spray to dissolve away all of the Gas Gum Deposits prior to re-assembling everything.:

88820
 

Mooseman

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Dec 4, 2011
25,257
Ottawa, ON
I do not agree that all the threads should be merged as this is a specific separate issue irregardless of the other work being done.

As @MRRSM indicated, I would also recommend replacing the complete timing set since you already have the engine all opened up. Mine was just as badly coked up and the tensioner was broken. The cam phaser also failed twice so that should be replaced as well while you're there. Easier now than having to reopen it later again.
 
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Jrp79

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Member
May 19, 2019
26
Gorgia
The timing chain was tight and no slack anywhere i checked. The tensioner looked to be ok (compressed with oil coming out and ratcheted out good) and that guide in the video was the only one damaged. I am going to replace the complete timing set along with new valve lashers any way to be safe a long with a new oil pump kit.
Suv still had plenty of power and ran smooth. Do you think the rings are worn down and it be in my best interest to get a rering kit?
 

Mooseman

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Dec 4, 2011
25,257
Ottawa, ON
What kind of mileage does it have? Did you do a compression test before taking it apart?
 

Jrp79

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May 19, 2019
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It has 188k. No i didnt do a compression test. I know it really dont tell the condition of the rings but it ran good,no smoke,still had power even with the rod knock. It wasnt driven for no more then 10 miles after it started knocking lightly. One rod bearing was bad (bearing was melted to the crank but it did peel off and all the rods checked out good and werent out of round). The mains still looked fairly new with little wear.
 

mrrsm

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The heavy concentration of Dark Black carbon Deposits and Brown Lacquer Gas Gum Residues strongly suggest that most of the Cylinders have the Upper Compression Ring impacted and literally stuck tight inside of the Piston Grooves. In modern engines like the GM Atlas Series of Motors...and most others as well... The Compression Rings are NOT as "springy" as they were in the days of old when thick compression rings could easily chew their ways into and oval out the Cast Iron Cylinder Walls of those engines. Not these. They have Very Low Spring Pressure which tends to allow engines to go around 150,000 Miles further before enough wear and tear can damage the Cylinder Walls.

The Down Side of all this though... is that without that strong tendency for the ring sets to "spring back" during each 4 Cycle Rotation... Unburned Fuel and Carbon Residue can form a Powerful Bonding Lacquer that can actually grab and keep the ring sets from re-expanding. The end result is that a good deal of the Combustion By-Products manage to PASS the Rings and collect as a constant Hot cloud of Unburned Gas and Carbon as Vapors in the Lower Crankcase and manage to thoroughly decorate absolutely everything, including the Rotating Assembly with that disgusting "Brown Varnish". This can happen to engines with even moderate mileage and age on them.

The situation can be MUCH improved by placing the motor in an upright condition and pour or spraying in the Foam version of ACDelco Top Engine Cleaner and let it sit in there for a few days if possible... then invert the engine and allow all of that Black "Mung" to drain out into a collection pan. This task should be done out in the Open Air as these fumes are dangerous to breathe and can get overwhelming. There are quite a few good Threads here at GMTN that cover the "How To Do..." on this topic. I mention doing it this way because I am assuming that it is still your intent NOT to R&R The Engine Head... Correct?
 
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Jrp79

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May 19, 2019
26
Gorgia
Ok so at this point it would be wise to take the head off and inspect the pistons and cylinders and replace the rings regardless?
 

Mooseman

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Dec 4, 2011
25,257
Ottawa, ON
It's up to you but I can tell you that 98% of the time, head bolts break and they can be a bitch to get out, usually the rear ones that are harder to get at. Personally, I wouldn't.
 
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Jrp79

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May 19, 2019
26
Gorgia
Yea i seen alot of threads about head bolts..
So if i take acdelco foam engine degreaser and spray a good amount through the spark plug holes and let it soak for a min of 3 days? Thats proven to loosen up the compression ring?
 

Jrp79

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May 19, 2019
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Gorgia
Is there a product comparable to acdelco top engine cleaner?
How is crc or seafoam engine cleaner?
 

mrrsm

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I'm in @Moosman's Camp on NOT disturbing the Engine Head if you can avoid it. However.. my only concerns would be that before any Rotations of the Crankshaft occurs... you will have to consider that with the DOHC (Double Overhead Camshafts still in place... you might wind up impacting those Open Valves and certain Pistons below them that cannot be moved without the correct Engine Timing having been established as expected during normal dis-assembly BEFORE the removal of the Timing Chain ordinarily takes place. This is an "Interference Engine" and it will be COMPLETELY Unforgiving should the relationships between the DOHCs and the Crankshaft get Misaligned or Mis-Timed and FUBARed.

Right now...with the Crankshaft out of the Bottom End... you will have no way of knowing how to accomplish this without first carefully unbolting the entire Valve Train Roller Rockers and Tiny Push Rods and remove BOTH Camshafts off of the head in order to allow ALL of the Valves to completely close. After that... you can clean up the Lower Block with a Gallon of Berryman Chem-Dip and some Stiff Auto Parts Brushes and then replace the Main and Con-Rod Bearings.

You will need to establish Top Dead Center on the #1 Cylinder ...and THEN install BOTH Camshafts with their Rear Flats positioned Horizontal and Even...and held in place with a Special Camshaft Restraining Tool as you lay BOTH Camshafts back in their respective Journals in the Head and slowly bolt each of Camshaft Caps down evenly to avoid damaging either cams...or the Valves.

The more I think about this problem... the more it looks like performing an Engine Head R&R might actually be Easier and Safer and at this point, possibly NECESSARY to do next if you do not want to have to remove the entire Valve Train Components as mentioned and not put everything else in the Engine at Risk. This is because the Crankshaft AND the Camshafts MUST also be Restrained prior to the installation of the Timing Chain Set in order to keep all of these major, asymmetrically rotating components right in their proper orientations.

You really have only Two Options worth considering for this hard task of dissolving all of these Caked On Baked On Carbon and Gas Gum Deposits all over, around and inside of your engine:

(1) Berryman B-12 ChemDip (or Berryman B-12 Carb Spray)
(2) ACDelco Top Engine Cleaner

Forget Seafoam and everything else... they are all just 'Mooncast Shadows' when compared to how Chemically Strong, Active and Purposeful the two listed above are at really getting rid of all that Crap.

Once the Lower Engine Block is Cleaned, Drained and Washed Out, Spray down the works in there with WD-40 to prevent Steel & Cast Iron Parts from immediately Rusting Up. I like keeping my Engines on Stands sealed up inside of HUGE Yard Bags in between repair and work sessions and well sprayed down on ALL ferrous Metal Components. Get a Bright Flashlight after the Clean Up Work is Done and examine each Cylinder from the Bottom and if possible look for any signs of deep scoring and abrasions - erosions along the Piston Skirt lines in the Cylinder Walls.

This is an opportunity to see first hand if there is enough Cylinder Wall Damage to warrant the Entire Re-Build of this Motor. If you think of it... Please ...Take some 'Pics-2-Post' or a Video of what you can see down inside this Engine and park them here for our Members to view and offer their insights and suggestions. We all appreciate getting to Peek Over Someone's Shoulder...as it really helps in figuring things out. :>)
 
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Jrp79

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May 19, 2019
26
Gorgia
Screenshot_20190528-115850.png

There were no dark marks on the chain so i aligned it as close to the image and marked all the links on the chain and timing marks on the sprockets with white paint.
I did take all the valve train parts out. B12 is easier to get then the top cleaner.
 

Mooseman

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Dec 4, 2011
25,257
Ottawa, ON
If the new chain has no marks or dark links, use the old chain to match the markings. It is crucial that you get this right.
 

Jrp79

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May 19, 2019
26
Gorgia
I haven't gotten the new timing set yet... are engine tech parts good? Just for the cloyots chain,guides and tensioner is 120, the whole set is 250. Engine tech has the complete set for around 80
 

Jrp79

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May 19, 2019
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Gorgia
Are all connecting rods the same for the LL8 engine? And are pins press fit or floating?
I took a quick look at the cylinders and didnt appear to be any damage. Ill take pics the best i can of the cylinder walls and post them.
 

Mooseman

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Dec 4, 2011
25,257
Ottawa, ON
I haven't gotten the new timing set yet... are engine tech parts good? Just for the cloyots chain,guides and tensioner is 120, the whole set is 250. Engine tech has the complete set for around 80

IIRC, that's what I used from eBay. I had no issues with it.
 

Jrp79

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May 19, 2019
26
Gorgia
Ok. Are the ebay oil pump kits good too(i haven't checked mine out yet)?and what are a good brand of main and rod bearings?engine tech has them too.
 

Jrp79

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May 19, 2019
26
Gorgia
Here are some quick pics i just snapped of the cylinder walls
 

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mrrsm

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Here are some images of the Quality Engine Parts that deserve to go into any Re-Manned GM 4.2L LL8 Engine. The Wrist Pins for the GM OEM Mahle Graphite Impregnated, Hyper-Eutectic Pistons are Free-Floating and use Wire Cir-Clips for their Bi-Lateral Retention inside of the Connecting Rods. The Moly-Steel Coated Ring Sets requires the use of a 400 Grit Nodular Carbide Hone finished at a 45 Degree Plateau Angle to achieve their Best Break-In and Reliable Compression Ring Sealing during Post Assembly Run-In:
43350763742_bb9aa3457c_z.jpg41590373400_593987b480_z.jpg43350762602_7f52910b1a_z.jpg41590373190_c73e0c9157_z.jpg43350762222_bea8235058_z.jpg43350761562_e4429f524a_z.jpg43350759602_a04b600f8a_z.jpg43350759292_671ee0a18e_z.jpg43350758862_c39ac9d63a_z.jpg43350758402_a89fb682e3_z.jpg43350758272_495663c4f9_z.jpg43350757802_ab0af2381a_z.jpg43350757642_25648cf055_z.jpg43350757362_485b161f6c_z.jpg43350756822_d065b42831_z.jpg43350756672_b39322b434_z.jpg42494500295_546a28c8ee_z.jpg43350759452_1290c3b82c_z.jpg43350758962_69bd827da0_z.jpg41590374680_c753ac0386_z.jpg

The Images you took looking from the Bottom Up into the Cylinders do show SOME Cylinder Wall Damage at the bottom where the Piston Skirts have worn in a bit... but without observing the Upper Half for additional Wear and Tear, their really is no way of telling of their overall condition without making a "Certified Eye-Ball" Once-Over and then Miking the Cylinders 90 Degrees apart at the Upper, Mid-Point and Lower portions of each Cylinder. Please know that these Centrifugal Cast Iron Sleeves are only 1.5MM Thick ... Right off of the GM Factory Floor... so other than a light, Clean-Up Honing (seek the advice of @m.mcmillen for his opinion on this...) You should NOT Freelance with the Use of Solid Stone Hones and Cutting Oil within this Motor... or you will run the risk of WAY over-doing the job.
 
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mrrsm

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To answer your other questions concerning the Connecting Rods… the Entire Engine Series from 2002 onward use the Same Con-Rods with a Stroke of 102MM (4.02”). The real differences concerns the Post – 2002 Piston Compression Rings Dimensions (if you Zoom the images of the Labels of the Mahle -GM OEM Box Ends ...you can view the dimensions for the “Thicker” Updated (1st) and (2nd Compression Rings for their Correct Thickness.

Also… Since I am replacing ALL of the Old Cylinder Sleeves with Brand New Press Fit Centrifugal Cast Iron Sleeves from Melling, I’ll be able to safely use the Mahle-GM OEM “Stock as a Clock” dimensions of 93MM (3.66”) described on those Box End Images. You may have to go Slightly Wider if you determine that the Cylinder Walls are too worn to fit in Stock Slugs with Fresh Stock Rings after the Clean Up Honing and may require as much as 0.010” of Machining to refresh the correct dimensions. Again… I yield to the expertise of @m.mcmillen who’s Machine Shop clean up of his Engine Block allowed him to ensure he would have Good Compression after his Total Atlas Re-Build was completed.

As for the Replacing the Gerotor Oil Pump… You can choose one of two paths for this R&R:

(1) Replace the Front Timing Cover AND the Gerotor Oil Pump Assembly as One Complete Unit for around $140.00 from gmpartsdirect.com.

(2) Unbolt the Gerotor Oil Pump from the Timing Cover Case and Install a New Gerotor Oil Pump Kit that consists of the Gerotor Oil Pump Body, The Asymmetric Hardened Chrome Steel Rotating Oil Compression Internal Gears/Rotor Assembly and the Oil Pump to Front Engine Block Seal. The Kit does come with a New Set of 10.9 Hardness Torx Screws to attach the Gerotor Oil Pump to the inside of the Front Timing Cover… However… The Oil Pump Pick Up Tube Blue Viton “O” Ring will NOT come with this assembly and it must be ordered separately from GM.

Many people labor under the impression that once the Oil travels from the Bottom of the Crankcase upwards and into the Gerotor Oil Pump that the Oil gets “pre-filtered” by passing through the Oil Filter on its way up inside there… First. Nope. This is NOT the case… and this means that over verey long operational periods, the Internal Areas of the Timing Cover and Gerotor Oil Pump Housing can be invaded with lots of Sand and Grit that can get sucked up and ground into the Rotating sleeved Gearing as it pumps out the Oil… and can even get jammed up inside of the passageway where the Pressure Relief Cylinder is held in place under Coiled Spring Pressure.

On occasion... that Relief Valve will Cant Sideways and get jammed or stuck under Spring-load against that Oil Relief Passageway and allow Oil under pressure to by-pass the nominal Oil Pressures of 12 PSI at Idle all the way up to 65 PSI at around 3,500 RPM. So on High Mileage Engines… Replacing the Gerotor Oil Pump and/or the Front Timing Cover as a Complete System is Excellent Insurance against the possibility of it failing after an Engine Rebuild on motors with VERY High Mileage. If you do just that… Take apart the Old Gerotor Oil Pump and you will be able to observe first hand just how much real Scraping and Scarring those Pump Gears had to endure for its First (and hopefully Last) Lifetime of performing inside of a Well-Worn and Tired Old Atlas Engine.
 

Jrp79

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May 19, 2019
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Gorgia
Alright took the head off and yup all 14 bolts broke so im having the machine shop drill them out, turn the crank and recondition the rods.
Here are pics of the valves and cylinder walls. None of the rings on any of the pistons were froze. And very little marking on the walls,can still see the cross hairs. When i get the block back im going to do a light hone to clean them up.
 

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mrrsm

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Those are very impressive Images... and the artifacts of an Engine Under GREAT Stress they show are really... quite disturbing. It looks like this Engine was over-revved at some point ... and held at High RPM long enough to cause "Valve Float" as all (6) of the Piston Heads show the symptomatic results of Permanent Damage from Repeated Intake Valve Impacts. Other problems with this kind of damage can occur from Excessive Connecting Rod Bolt Stretch; an error that can happen on re-built engines traceable to mistakenly re-using the "Use Once ...and Throw Away" TTY Con-Rod Bolts.

I agree that all of the Cylinder Walls look fairly good; considering these other issues. If you examine the Upper Combustion Chamber and look at the Valves on those images, you'll notice a 'Carbon Sliver' outline on a few of them indicating that Combustion By-Products were collecting on the surface of the Valve(s) where the 'Damage Dimples' hammered into the Piston Heads are located, forming crescent shaped open cavities.

More than likely... a few of those Valves are also bent along the lengths of their Shafts and their sealing margins may have also been compromised at the Valve Seats after becoming a bit warped. And so unfortunately, it is more than likely that in addition to the Atlas Motor, the Aluminum Engine Head will also need to be re-built as a result.

Incidentally... You still have an opportunity to show just how far the Timing Chain Plunger had traveled outwards even though it has since been removed from its front mount on the Passenger Side of the Engine. It should display essentially the same Tell-Tale Staining on the Ratcheting Plunger from its exposure to the Excessive Blow-By Gas Gum Vapors filling up the Lower Crankcase.

Such images will have great value long as you do not take the picture(s) of it with the Ratcheting Plunger stuffed all the way back down inside of the Tensioner Body and held there using the Retention Pin inserted through the Detente Hole in the rounded Locking Spring Tensioner Retaining Arm. The naked images of the full length of the partially stained Plunger will provide a much better idea and view of just how far that Plunger Arm to Tensioner Guide managed to travel before the Engine was disassembled. Thanks in Advance for doing this extra bit of effort!
 
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Sparky

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Dec 4, 2011
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2nd pic - those intake valves are super clean compared to the rest. Why is that?
 

mrrsm

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All of those Cylinders and Intake Valves present with different conditions for a number of reasons:

(1) The GM Atlas Engine re-routes Oil Laden Air to rise to the interior of the Valve Cover jusy above a lengthy Mild Steel Panel and towards the upper front area, there is molded port in the cover that connects via a Small Rubber Hose to the Intake Air Plenum. From there, those Oily Fumes are ingested through the Throttle Body and drawn down inside of the Intake Manifold Runners where it can be re-ingested into all (6) Cylinders and Burned.

(2) If the right amount of Compression is present along with proper temperature Spark Plugs therein having the correct conditions and Spark Gaps... The EFIs spray in Atomized Fuel to mix the Air and Oily Vapors... and proper resulting combustion takes place leaving little if any residue on the Intake Valves and the Upper Combustion Chambers.

(3) Unlike the "Fried Chicken Brown" color of the smaller "Red Hot" Exhaust Valves... During the Intake Cycle... The Larger Intake Valves are cooled more immediately by the EFI Fuel Spray than the Exhaust Valves and thus, they never display evidence of having Burned or Browned Surfaces.

(4) If the conditions for Near Perfect Compression, Spark Timing and Combustion are NOT present... Then the Misting Fuel and Oil atmosphere can collect in the Upper Cylinder and decorate the Intake Valves with an Oily, Protective Film that will prevent any Post- Combustion Carbon By-Products from building up on their surfaces.

(5) In the absence of any buildup... the TRUE Concave-Center Dimples of the Intake Valves will be patent and clear. But when the Oily-Carbon Mass can stick to the Intake Valves, this will cause the hollows of the Intake Valves to fill in and get paved over inside of those concavities leveling over the dimpled center areas with a Mass of Carbon that; along with other areas suffering from Carbon Build-Up... can change the Upper Volume of the Cylinder Head when All Four Valves are Completely CLOSED during the Power Stroke for each unique Cylinder.

(6) These variances in the amount of Carbon Build-Up can change the Compression Ratios and Power Dynamics between one cylinder and another. Contrast all of these three Dual Intake Valve Images between Cylinders #2, #4 & #6 and you can clearly see the presence of this phenomena in the OP's Troubled Engine in their varied conditions between Cylinders:

CYLINDER2INTAKEVALVES.jpgCYLINDER4INTAKEVALVES.jpgCYLINDER6INTAKEVALVES.jpg

As for the Spark Plugs... They give some indications that the ones bearing Rust have NOT been firing frequently and "Hot" enough to prevent the collection of Water Vapor as a By-Product of Combustion from Rusting away their Cathode areas... Especially Spark Plug #1 & #2. If I were to venture a guess... this Engine had probably been sitting unused for quite some time before being disassembled:

SPARKPLUG1.jpgSPARKPLUG2.jpgSPARKPLUG3.jpgSPARKPLUG4.jpgSPARKPLUG5.jpgSPARKPLUG6.jpg
 
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