Thoughts on this towing experience?

[6716]

Hey all.

I towed an RV for the first time this weekend. I have the 4.2 4wd with 3.42 gears. That combination is supposedly good to 10,000 CGVW. On the CAT scale CGVW with almost a full tank, the trailer, and gear came in at 9780.

My biggest concern is how hard I was working the engine (but I didn't have a way to watch trans temp). The trip to the campground (just under 200 miles) I had a 40 mph headwind. There were some hills. It was a 65 mph road. And then I hit interstate at 70. When it would downshift, RPMs were like 4500, climbing towards 5000, and the temp gauge drifted up a couple of ticks.

On the trip back I avoided the interstate, took back roads. I think the lower speeds and lack of headwind was a big factor in much less work on the engine. It was a much more relaxed experience.

I rented this RV thinking I might buy one of this model, but now I am not so sure about towing it with the Trailblazer. Should I be concerned about running for several minutes at 4500-4800 rpms? I can't imagine how I would do in actual mountains, I feel like it would overheat or throw a rod or something.

 

[Mike534x]

I gotta say, if you're at 250k miles on the original engine and tranny that is awesome! I'm always paranoid about towing something, even at 214k. From what you're saying, I do think you may have been pushing the limits, but I think its fine if you're not holding that RPM for large durations of time. Sadly I'm not an expert at towing, but I was told the general rule of thumb is to give it a little "breathing room" when it came to load capacity.

If the engine's still purring with no issues, and the tranny is working as it should prior to the trip you should be fine. I guess if you were to do it again, definitely add an aux trans-cooler in addition to the factory one. The cooler that tranny is, the happier it'll be when pulling something.

I've seen posts from the stuff @Mooseman had pulled, I'm sure he'll be able to shed some light on it.

 

[6716]

Actually, the transmission is rebuilt within the last 20,000 miles. But yeah, a trans cooler is on the list. I worried more on the trip out than the trip back, but a lighter travel trailer is now something to consider.

 

[Mooseman]

I think you're over limit, at least to what GM was hopeful about towing capacity in the day. Before the SAE J2807 towing test was established, OEMs basically guessed what their vehicles were capable of towing. Towing and braking capabilities of the GMT360 was really overestimated. Brakes are really marginal, especially on the 4.2 SWB unless modified to the bigger LWB brakes, and even then, not really adequate.

Here's towing capacities for your truck, copied from this site:

What was the weight of the trailer itself? And the tongue weight? Were you using a weight distributing hitch? Use an electric brake controller?

The 4.2 is not a torque motor so towing heavy with it is not its strong suit, especially with 3.42 gears. I once towed a 5000# trailer with my 07 TB with 3.42 gear and it huffed and puffed. Tranny temps stayed well within reason because I have an aux cooler, which is a must whether you tow or not. I then used the Saab with its 5.3 and 3.73 gears to tow that trailer. And when I towed our new 6500# trailer with it, which was right at its limit, I blew the motor although I'm pretty sure it had issues before that. It had a hard time going up even slight grades.

I'm pretty sure that our trucks would be nowhere near these tow limits if they were subjected to the J2807 standard.

 

[6716]

@Mooseman, when you say you blew the motor, what actually happened, do you know?

I read about the J2807 standard and I thought that was how Chevy came up with the rating for the Trailblazer variants, I think that is why I was surprised that it had the trouble it had.

I found the chart you included, @Mooseman , and that is why I thought I was within specs, but if those are just a guess ....

I did weigh, but I didn't drop the trailer and re-weigh to get just the truck. However, I did weigh the truck a week before the trip, with similar passengers and gear loaded.

Still, by that chart I was within stated specs. Even on the door, max RR axle weight is 3200. Realistically I was trying to see just how big a trailer I could pull. I think I got there, and then some!

No trailer, but passengers and a maybe-representative amount of gear.
Front axle 2660
Rear axle 2560
Trailer axle 0
Total 5220

Trailer
Front axle 2640
Rear axle 3180
Trailer axle 3960
Total 9780

Probably looking at 600 pounds tongue weight, so tongue weight plus trailer axle weight puts the trailer at 4600-ish. 600 out of 4600 is within the 15% tongue weight recommendation. We rolled down with the trailer just as it was, and our gear in the truck. Maybe we could have shifted some weight around by putting the gear in the trailer instead. Not sure what impact that would make.

Do have the Tenkara P3 brake controller, which I just installed based on the recommendation here in the Towing FAQs. It performed as I would have thought it would, and I didn't have any braking freak outs.

Did have/rent what was said to be a 6000 pound weight distributing/sway control hitch, and the hitch itself was probably at least 50 pounds. There was some bounce at times as we were rolling, and the truck did squat some, but the rental place didn't do much for height adjustment on the ball, and maybe that would have made some difference in squat? Not sure. And, without the trailer the front axle read a little heavier, so I wonder if better weight distributing set-up would have helped all around.

I mean, I didn't ever not go at least the minimum posted speed of 40. I think it was just the strain and heat on a couple of those hills on the faster-posted highways that gave me some concerns. In other situations I think it towed ok-ish. I probably wouldn't want to be towing that heavy through the mountains with it, but I might make it fine with a trans cooler and relatively flat midwestern landscapes.

Probably my biggest take away is that the stated towing numbers are scientific wild-ass guesses. That explains a lot.

Thanks for the input.

 

[Mooseman]

Did have/rent what was said to be a 6000 pound weight distributing/sway control hitch, and the hitch itself was probably at least 50 pounds. There was some bounce at times as we were rolling, and the truck did squat some, but the rental place didn't do much for height adjustment on the ball, and maybe that would have made some difference in squat? Not sure. And, without the trailer the front axle read a little heavier, so I wonder if better weight distributing set-up would have helped all around.

It does take some time and work to properly adjust the weight distribution. Sounds like not enough if you were squatting. Might help with the bouncing too but there will always be a little what's called "porpoising" , wallowing like a whale.

Every RV trailer has a weight information sticker, sometimes two, with dry weight, total loaded weight, tongue weight and tire size. However, sounds like your trailer was around 4000#. BTW, you were towing in 3rd gear? At that weight, OD would be a strain and it would hunt between 3 and 4 a lot, causing heat and wear.

@Reprise knows a lot more than I do on this stuff. Maybe he can advise more.

 

[6716]

I was towing in 3rd gear, yes.

On the weight distributing set-up, I watched a video on it, where they measure front and back bumper heights and use that to dial in the set-up. This guy measured the back bumper once, and then put the hitch in and never measured again. Maybe he knew more than he let on, or more than I know about weight distributing hitches. If I get a travel trailer I will probably obsess over the weight distributing hitch set-up.

The trailer lists at 4125# dry weight, but I didn't take a picture of the sticker on the door.

 

[Reprise]

@Reprise knows a lot more than I do on this stuff. Maybe he can advise more.

Why you say that, Moose? You did well! Not much more I can add, without slipping into hyperbole.

Actually, I figured out from your post why GM revised the tow weights downwards on this platform (my Envoy is rated in the manual for 7000lb towing... and after towing roughly 6000lb from PA <> IL, I'll never pull that kind of weight again with the Voy). So I learned something, too

OP: I'm not going to beat you up too badly; you've learned some things already in this thread. Some thoughts...

- There's a difference between "I was trying to see just how big a trailer I could pull".... and doing it safely. Remember that your actions affect not only you / your passengers, but others on the road. Putting your tow vehicle at max capability, leaves you with no margin, should the worst happen.
An old saying goes... 'just because you can... doesn't mean you should'

- Your 4125lb trailer, by the time you added a battery on the tongue, along with a tank or two of propane, and any gear, was probably closer to 4400lb. The 50lb from the WDH counts in your total as well.

- While you had a WDH, it wasn't set up correctly -- when it is, the rear won't be sagging. Sometimes a different mount is needed (rise / drop) in order to compensate for this.
- Measuring the bumper height (and then not re-measuring) isn't the best way to set up a WDH. What you want to do is measure at the fenderwells, both front / rear. When adjusted properly, your height, after measuring again, should be within 1" of what it was, unloaded.
- I'll bet, if you think back... the front steering felt a little light?

-With your TB's driveline, I'd probably look for a trailer with a dry weight of 3500lb or so. I'd also look for one with a lower frame height. What make / model were you towing?
Trailer length is a factor as well. Once you get above 30' or so total length (ball mount to rear bumper), sway gets worse, especially as 18-wheelers are passing.

- Total height of the trailer is a factor, too. The trailer is basically a big sail.
My first trailer that I pulled with the Envoy was a lower frame, lower roof height, 4200lb (?) dry weight trailer that was about 26ft long, total. Set up correctly with WDH, it really did pull well (until I got up in the mountains out west). Your Tekonsha T3 is a great unit; hold onto that. I have the same one, btw.

- How many people are you taking camping, and if kids are coming along, how many / how old? Young kids don't need quite the space that tweens / teens / adults do. Bigger people tends to make you want more trailer. Nothing wrong with that. But if the trailer gets big enough, the tow vehicle needs to grow, too, to safely handle it.

- What kind of camping do you see yourself doing? A step up from on the ground, in tents? Being able to do laundry on the trailer, along with having a dishwasher, and four slide-outs? Something in-between? That factors in, too.

- Trailer layout makes a difference... a 'front kitchen' layout, with the appliances grouped toward the front, makes for a heavier tongue weight, vs. something with a mid-kitchen, for example. A rear bath can put a lot of weight toward the rear (and increase sway), especially if you're carrying a lot of water on board. The best balanced layouts (that will allow you to tow with vehicles like the TB), have the biggest portion of the weight near the axles.

- Since the TB doesn't have 'tow' programming, 3rd gear is where you need to be, unless you're in an area that's flat as a pancake.
- When descending a long grade, doing it a gear lower than on the ascent is often advised (e.g.; 3rd to 2nd).
- 65mph is about as high a speed as you want to go. Because of the trailer tires. Especially if they're original equipment, and a brand like 'Castle Rock', or similar. They're derisively called 'China Bombs'.
- A good quality (e.g.; 'accurate) tire pressure gauge is your friend. So is a portable air compressor (or the air station when you refuel). If you have $20 or so, an infrared thermometer is a good spend -- use it to check the temp of the trailer tires (and the ones on your tow vehicle, too.) A TPMS system is great for this -- you'll be notified when things start going south, as you're driving. Systems are available that will monitor all of your trailer *and* your truck's tires, if desired.

- If you're towing with regular tires (e.g.; not 'LT', which stands for 'light truck'), inflate them higher when towing. Depending on how much weight, max sidewall (as shown on the tire) wouldn't be a bad idea. Be aware of the 'load range' of the tires on your tow vehicle. Most passenger car tires fall into LR 'C', which is marginal for towing. If your trailer tires are load range 'D' (LRD), use at least that for your tow vehicle's tires ('D' are 8-ply; 'E' are 10-ply, and so on). 3/4-ton trucks use LRE by default, as an FYI. And medium-duty truck tires go even higher than 'E'.
- When replacing your trailer tires, the ones to get are 'ST' ('special trailer'). They have stiffer sidewalls, and will have a load range assigned to them. Don't replace them with non-trailer tires.

- No trans temp gauge? Easily rectified with something like Torque Pro, and an inexpensive OBD-II dongle. That's what I used when I drove from IL <> MT (going from 750ft elevation > 8600ft). There's no excuse for not knowing your trans temp... and being able to slow down / shut down, should it get too high. BTW, Dexron VI is stable until about 260F or so -- but you don't want to be anywhere near that temp, if you can help it. When you saw the coolant temp go up a couple of ticks... so did the trans fluid temp, since it's being cooled by the radiator. And on that note...

- I'd change out the trans fluid, at a minimum (drain / replace). If what comes out looks brown or smells burnt, give thought to replacing all of it (instructions are on this site), as well as dropping the pan and seeing if there's any gritty clutch material, etc., in the pan. And while you're doing that... GET A TRANSMISSION COOLER, and install it, before you do this again. You can get a decent cooler for $50-$100, and a very nice one for $150 or so. It costs about $2000 and up to rebuild a 4L60E. Which is the smarter spend?

I think that's about all for now. If you have any questions, feel free to ask. Many of us tow trailers, boats, etc., and will be happy to share what works well for them / what to avoid doing.

 

[Mooseman]

I didn't go super deep into it but since you did...

If you were to replace the trailer's tires, I HIGHLY recommend Goodyear's Endurance trailer tires. The original Constancy China Bombs didn't even meet the total trailer weight with a load range C. Just going to the Goodyears, I got load range D and higher tire load capacity. However, you are still limited to the total weight capacity of the trailer itself.

And the name of the game now is go as light as possible. Before towing, empty all the water, including the hot water tank and the lines by opening the low point drains.

Before I started getting into RVing, I watched A TON of YouTube videos and still do. Always learn new things. There are lots of videos for newbies too.

As far as what happened to the Saab, I was towing our 6500# trailer (yeah, I know) and as I was going up a long incline in 2nd gear, it started knocking and losing oil pressure. It always had a slight knock but always thought it was piston slap because it never got any worse for years and the oil never showed any sparkles.

 

[Ilikemy3s]

Would it be wise to replace all of his fluids with synthetic and not just the Trans. I mean the axels, transfere case, and heck even the power steering ?

 

[Mooseman]

Synthetics are always better. DexVI tranny fluid is already synth. Engine is owners choice but it's always better. The axles are also spec'd to 75w90 synth. No choice for the transfer case since it can only use smurf blood AutoTrak II. The power steering uses power steering fluid that could be synth or not however I don't see the need to change that but it wouldn't hurt.

 

[budwich]

Just because the road has "XX mph" signs doesn't mean you have to travel that fast.
You are pushing the truck to its capacity with your "weighed in figures", don't expect it to handle like your stroll to the corner store.

As suggested, there are things that you can do to improve the experience both in terms of logistics (choose your route and speeds) along with add-on / adjustments. However, you are pushing the limits, so for long term use, you are going to be "living on the edge"... those are the expectations / realities. Choice would be a smaller (less weight) trailer or larger tow vehicle.

I tow heavy at around 9500-9800 (GCVW) on a 4.2 / 3.42. Its not a "race car" but it gets there. We have done a couple of "around the USA" trips. It mostly survives fine... I do monitor "everything" at all times. The worse combinations have been extreme outside heat, wind, and climbs. We do the normal highway speeds (less than 65 as suggested, tires taken into consideration and just because there is no reason to "fly").
Its probably taking its toll on the vehicle and its to be expected... we are at the limits and those don't say "work your truck at these limits and STILL get a full life expectancy".

If you want to keep your vehicle, you might consider the trailer "type". There are "newer styles" that have lower profiles that will help in the "going down the road" aspect, but still offer the same "trailer life style".

Ultimately, if you are at stated limits, don't expect things to be that same as a "walk in the park".

Further: you did good with your "weigh-ins" in terms of determining where things "sit". Besides the GCVW, you are likely to bang up against the rear axle weight "limits".

Ultimately, I have probably done about 35-40 KKM in various terrains including the rockies. The vehicle now has about 260KKM. Just got back from lake placid which I would consider "moderate terrain". Outside of forgetting to select 3rd once (was too busy talking about where to head next), the truck performed OK. It handles fine even with large vehicles passing although being overtaken from behind is more "concerning" as the "push" of the passing vehicle has more direct impact.

 

[6716]

Thanks everyone for the input.

Looking at it, I actually was over the posted limits in GVWR for the Trailblazer itself, even though I was under for combined weight. I was under for each axle's weight limit, but over for the total of both axles. I could have shifted some gear to the trailer and been under the numbers, though.

Still, we didn't have much gear with us. And leaving the campground, we were certainly over the limit while the freshwater tank drained. So I think if I am going to tow with the Trailblazer, it would be wise to have a little less trailer to start with.

The trailer we towed was a Jayco 212QB https://www.jayco.com/rvs/travel-trailers/2022-jay-flight-slx-8/212qb/ . There's just the two of us and the little dog, and I like this configuration with the windows on three sides in the back. I like lots of windows, so a bathroom in back is less appealing. Still, it's camping, so we might be spending a lot of time outside, right? Well, between the fishing and the hiking yes, but we didn't have super much weight allowance for outside lounging setup. Also the dream is that I can work from the trailer if I wanted as well, since my work is full remote. Plus the bed sucked, I would add a better mattress and better support for the platform, and that would add some weight right there.

I mean it seems obvious in retrospect but I should probably look for a configuration that I like where the the trailer max is close to or under max trailer weight, rather than the trailer dry weight.

 

[Reprise]

Thanks for posting the trailer model. Seeing that helps us (me) determine what you're trying to do.

The good news... Your trailer specs out much like my first one, that I was pulling so well with my Envoy (outside of mountains).
The bad news... My Voy has the V8 and better gears. And mine is the LWB, which also helps (stability).

So, what you're looking for is commonly known as a 'couples trailer', in a 'rear living' / 'rear dining' arrangement. Again, just like my first trailer. No slides, appliances more or less midships, over the axles. Good thinking. Stick to models that are less than 11' high (these will generally have the lower height frame / axles. People like to say that 'stick and tin' are lighter, vs. laminated, but I don't think that's always 100% true. A slideout will add about 800lb in weight, so you're probably looking to stay with a trailer without them (easier maintenance, so there's that).

Now, before I get your hopes sky-high... GVWR and GCVWR are not to be ignored, both from a safety and liability standpoint. So there's that.

If you want to use your TB to tow with, here's what I'd do...
- External Trans cooler (plumbed either in series, or separate from the radiator cooler). Swap out to fresh Dexron VI. Get some type of gauge in place where you can monitor temps.

- Good WDH, set up correctly (you'll pay more at an RV retail outlet, but that should include setting it up for you. When you find where you want to purchase your trailer, they'll often do the setup, if you purchase the hitch from them). Adjustable anti-sway is good to have; I'd recommend it.

- Upgrade your front brakes to the LWB / SS versions (you need to swap the mounting bracket and get the larger rotors -- which I think will require 17" wheels, as well). For the pads, I use the NAPA 'Adaptive One' pads and like them a lot (e.g.; I don't wish I'd gotten 'dedicated towing pads' instead, etc.) My rotors aren't drilled / slotted, either. The takeaway here is "more surface area, and superior fade resistance".

- Trailer brake controller -- You have the Tekonsha T3, so check that off your list. It should be adjusted a little aggressively (downside being that you'll wear the trailer's brake shoes more quickly, but that's better than overtaxing the brakes on the tow vehicle.) Just short of lockup is where you want to be.

- Weight -- One of the areas where you can save weight is the battery. For you, a single battery setup is probably better. Look at lithium. It can also be installed off the front of the trailer, if desired. Entry cost is higher for lithium, but you'll make it back up over the (increased) life of the battery.

Now... could you tow the 212QB, with the above issues addressed? Probably, as long as you tow with empty water tanks, on flatter terrain, for shorter trips (200-300 miles). And in 3rd gear. As you've seen, you're probably at the upper limits with the Trailblazer, but the above items will give you a fighting chance.

Couples-style trailers are a popular segment in the RV world, so there should be a few choices to decide from. The downside is that I don't think you're going to find much in the way of weight difference, give / take a couple of hundred pounds either way. To get under 4000lb, you're probably looking at a smaller trailer, with the tradeoffs that that gives.

On the workspace... I've always liked the idea of finding the right bunkhouse arrangement; you rip out the bunks, and you've got a dedicated workspace that can house a nice-sized dedicated home office setup. Use it exclusively for that, and you could even turn it into a nice tax deduction. But you'll probably need to step up from the Trailblazer as your tow vehicle, for that. Beds (and perhaps a closet) don't weigh that much, when they're ripped out.

If you were to upgrade the tow vehicle, that would open up a lot of possibilities for you. A standard gas half-ton (V8) with (at least) 1500lb of payload would probably be perfect for what you want to do, and you could go out for longer trips. If you're sticking with GM, think 5.3L or bigger. The 4.8 is probably not going to do the job that much better than what you've got now (unless you upgrade the internals, like with a tow cam, etc.)

No need to go overboard with 1-ton diesel, etc., unless you know you're planning to step up to a heavy (over 10K lbs) fifth wheel in the future.

That's enough writing (reading) for now. You (both) have some 'homework' to do. 🏫👨‍🎓👩‍🎓
Happy camping!

 

[Mooseman]

If you're looking at buying a brand new trailer, DON'T! Since the beginning of the pandemic, quality has fallen off a cliff. Hell, I wouldn't even buy a 2020-2022 used because they are probably trying to dump it because of issues. Even the higher end brands like Grand Design have been having problems.

We got a used 2016 Coachmen 248RBS in 2020 and it's been the near perfect couple's trailer for us. A bit on the heavy side at 5500# dry and 7500# loaded (currently running ~6500#) and I had to upgrade to a diesel (a 3.0L Duramax). And I've even upgraded the batteries to two golf cart batteries, added a truck box on the front, another box on the rear bumper, Mor-Ryde Step above steps and swapped out the jackknife sofa-bed for a pair of small recliners. Love the roomy bathroom.

As much as we like our GMT360s, they are not the best for towing anything more than maybe 4000#, especially with the 4.2.

 

[6716]

Here's the one we're going to rent next http://www.forestriverinc.com/rvs/travel-trailers/wolf-pup/16TS/5461 . GVWR of like 3970#, 3200# dry. A little shorter and a little lighter than the other one, in some ways the layout is a little better, in some ways a little worse, but we'll check it out.

I'm both rationally and irrationally overly attached to the Trailblazer. I have a pretty good idea how it is running and what should get worked on next, I've worked on almost every system in the thing by now, and it's paid for. Plus the market for new or newer is goofy right now. And it does everything I need it to, it gets through the snow in winter and gets me to the trout streams in all the other seasons.

I plan to hang on to it probably until the frame or something major goes (though the rear driver's door is starting to show more rust than I would like, and some is just starting to show on the hood). I could get a new truck, and at some point I will, but I am (mostly) super frugal and it pleases me to keep old things running and get as much use out of a thing as there is to be had. In the very short term it is a good enough platform to get an introduction to travel trailers and brake controllers and weight distributing hitches and all that. When it finally comes time for a new tow vehicle I hope to have a good sense of what I want exactly.

I'm going to do a trans cooler, and probably swap out fluid and the filter, I'm coming up on 20k miles since the re-build. I'm looking at the next trip in about a month, so I should have time, but having said that I should order some parts.

I'll be renting from a different rental place this time, they don't say anything about renting weight distributing hitches, so I might go ahead and get one now. I've watched the setup videos, and even if I don't set it up exactly at the rental place, they have a four-day minimum so maybe I get the trailer the night before and set it up.

@Mooseman will I buy an RV new? I think this model we're about to rent has been around for a while, if I look I might find a good used one, if it turns out we can live with the layout. I kind of like getting them with the first depreciation hit already taken off.

@Reprise I have thought a little about re-purposing a bunkhouse section for an office, though I do all my work from the couch now anyway. Have laptop, will travel. I'm not a desk kind of guy, and there's no paper involved in my work. However, if we do a trip where we both are working, it would help to get a wall between the zoom calls.

 

[Reprise]

Even the higher end brands like Grand Design have been having problems.

I took a look at them in 2016, and thought they were overrated even then, TBH.

Love the roomy bathroom.

This was a prime reason I traded my first trailer (Grey Wolf 20RDSE, for reference @6716 ) for my current one. The first one had a bathtub, but being a half-width (4ft) bath, it was tighter than I liked. And having the toilet jammed against one wall isn't conducive to a comfy sitting position, if you know what I mean.

The new one has a full-width bath, and the toilet has room for me to cop a proper squat

 

[Mooseman]

The rent before you buy is an excellent strategy. That Wolf Pup Looks like a nice unit. Maybe a little small for me but if you really plan on not spending a lot of time in it, I think it would be good. Also noticed that it has a 12V compressor type fridge. What's good about that is that you can run it while driving so it can keep cold. We do spend a little time in ours to watch TV in the late evening or spend a lot time while it's raining outside. I can't live without my outdoor kitchen. It's my "Raison d'être" while camping. One thing is for sure, I personally would not go bigger than 25ft. There are campsites that are restricted to certain sizes and 25ft seems to be the most common. Some you have to go to a bigger more expensive site if you have anything longer than that.

Our first camper, the bathroom was so small, I had to stick my legs out the door while sitting on the throne and it also had a half bath that I would come out of with a kink in my neck because I had no headroom.

There are/will be a lot of campers on the used market as people that bought them during the pandemic find it's not for them and also gas being so expensive have lost interest. New dealer lots are FULL of new ones, meaning that nobody is buying them, even at this slower production pace. There might be opportunities for deals but these pandemic builds are being built by newbies and being rushed out the door with sub-par quality control.

 

[6716]

Well, 1,000 pounds makes all the difference. Definitely this lighter trailer was a much better towing experience. The real news though is that the Trailblazer is not going to pull as much trailer as I would like to have. Thanks all for your thoughts, I learned a ton.