TC Motor

ts684

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May 29, 2013
81
TC motor connected but not installed. Turned switch from 2WD to 4WD, motor turned more than I would have expected (120deg ?) lite on 2WD stayed steady, lite on 4WD blinked. Flashed long enough that I didn't think it would stop. Turning back to 2WD, motor backed up a bit, but then went forward to turn 360 deg, switch on 2WD, lite steady. BUT the motor shaft did not stop where I expected it to and was not in a position that would allow installation. Turning switch back and forth a few times finally got motor shaft back to where I needed it, switch now on 2WD, lite steady. I did not observe what was happening with the switch when I was doing this, kind of in a panic.

Any idea what the range of movement of the TC shaft can be?
Unfortunately, no scanner.
 

ts684

Original poster
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May 29, 2013
81
All wheels in air, engine off,trans in neutral. With selector switch on 2wd. Rotate rear driveshaft by hand,rear wheels turn. Turn switch t 4wd, 2wd light steady, 4wd light blinking. Get under and turn rear driveshaft, all wheels turn. Block rt front wheel, turn driveshaft, rear wheels turn, front at twice speed. Lite over 4wd still blinking. Block left front, now cannot turn driveshaft, light over 4wd still blinking!! What's going on? Pita to type on tablet!!
 

Maverick6587

Member
Dec 16, 2018
730
Sterling Heights, Michigan
You could try the steps in the following video to reset everything. He shows you how to change the transfer case to 2WD. Someone else had a post in this thread on figuring out where 2WD was on the motor. I think if you do those two things, you should be all set.

 
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ts684

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May 29, 2013
81
Saw this vid about 2 mos ago. Car went into 2WD by itself, sitting overnight, after being stuck in 4WD. My problem however, is that even though I replaced both front axel disconnect and TC motor, I can't get into 4WD with a steady light.
 

budwich

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Jun 16, 2013
2,027
kanata
have you tried moving the transfer case shaft thru its range to see if you feel any "mechanical" issues?
 

ts684

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May 29, 2013
81
I tried, but I am not sure how much force to use. It moved about 20-30 degrees without much trouble but no more. I reported that with all wheels in the air, selector in 4WD (lite blinking over 4WD, steady over 2WD) ignition on, engine off, transmission in neutral, I was able to turn rear driveshaft by hand and all 4 wheels turned. The transfer case did not make any sound, did hear front disconnect activate but not TC motor.

How much should the transfer case shaft be able to turn, any ideas?
 

budwich

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Jun 16, 2013
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kanata
you tried to move it in either direction past where it was supposedly sitting with the 2w light set?
 

ts684

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May 29, 2013
81
Shaft seemed to move 1 "notch" counter clockwise from where it was operating in 2WD and then back. May have been able to move 1 "notch" clockwise from original position but can't remember for sure. With motor off TC but connected, motor shaft turned about 120 deg with switch moved from 2WD to 4WD, (4WD drive lite kept blinking) I could not turn the TC shaft that much.

Unfortunately, I will probably not have time to mess with it this week, and next week I'm having a hip replaced.
 

budwich

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Jun 16, 2013
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kanata
sounds like your truck has a "sympathetic injury" also :smile:
good luck with the medical issue. I am sure life will be better after that... I am sure the truck ain't going anywhere. Ultimately, you need to verify exactly what the shaft is and isn't doing with out the motor attached .... that is because, you don't have a way with out a tech2 device to read what the encoder is seeing in terms of position.
 

ts684

Original poster
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May 29, 2013
81
Well, not yet. Had my left hip replaced on 3/9, so it will be about another 2 weeks until I'm up to jacking and crawling.
 

budwich

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Jun 16, 2013
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kanata
ok.... looking at the service manual, they only indicate that you need to ensure that the transfer case is in 2w hi. There is no mention of the shaft offset as to where that position physically is. Further, as you know or discovered, that the indicator on the switch, flashes while the encoder is doing its thing to position to the requested drive selected. IF it is successful, the light goes solid at the selected position. Iirc, if unsuccessful, it stays flashing and should light an error on the instrument panel indicator (I need to recheck this). Further, certain transfers need certain conditions to happen. The one in particular that is specified is "engine needs to be running"... however, this is not very clear as to "running" versus "key in run"... that could be difference especially when doing "dry testing".

good luck with the hip, hopefully all pain will be gone.
 
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ts684

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May 29, 2013
81
ok.... looking at the service manual, they only indicate that you need to ensure that the transfer case is in 2w hi. There is no mention of the shaft offset as to where that position physically is. Further, as you know or discovered, that the indicator on the switch, flashes while the encoder is doing its thing to position to the requested drive selected. IF it is successful, the light goes solid at the selected position. Iirc, if unsuccessful, it stays flashing and should light an error on the instrument panel indicator (I need to recheck this). Further, certain transfers need certain conditions to happen. The one in particular that is specified is "engine needs to be running"... however, this is not very clear as to "running" versus "key in run"... that could be difference especially when doing "dry testing".

good luck with the hip, hopefully all pain will be gone.
I'm back!!! OK. Rolling slowly I turned the switch to 4WD, lite started flashing and eventually service lite came on. Jacked car up to get all 4 wheels off the ground. Turned ignition to ON. Turned switch to 4WD. Lites started flashing and service lite came on just like before. I put gear shift in neutral and turned key to ACC pos. Got underneath car, rotated main driveshaft, all 4 wheels turned. Blocking front wheels I was unable to turn driveshaft. Unplugged TC motor and tried to remove. Difficult job, when I got it out far enough to release pins, it sharply turned counter clockwise. TC shaft appeared to be turned a bit clockwise. Put vise grips on the shaft and tried to turn. With quite a bit of effort, it finally moved. I think I was able to move it from 2WD to A4WD, one click, no more. As a wild guess I would say it moved about 20 deg. When I had it in what I think was A4WD, all 4 wheels turned when I turned the driveshaft. What I think is that the TC is somehow jammed or stuck. The big question is whether I can get it to operate again or will I have to replace. I am third owner. When the TC first started acting up back in Jan., I changed the TC fluid. It looked OK, just a bit darker than the new stuff.

If I want to try a used unit, is there anyway to test or check out ahead of time??
Any ideas??
 

budwich

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Jun 16, 2013
2,027
kanata
glad to see that your "hip o" is functional and hopefully will give you years of good use.

I personally never turned my tc as I left it what I would have considered 2w as that was where it was "happy" so to speak (ie. light solid, and front wheels appeared to be unlocked). I used a bench battery to move the replacement unit into alignment for the install.

I am not getting a good feeling about the transfer case although maybe someone who has manually operated it, will maybe know how hard / easy movement is "normally".

In terms of used unit, again no experience, but IF you are getting it locally and can see / touch it and also depending on who is selling, then perhaps an opportunity to check its movement on a bench.... ensure marking before any movement so that it can be returned to a position. At least you could compare your results.

As for your tests, a question would appear to be, are you able to readily move back and forth manual from the 4wd to 2wd positions. Note: I am not sure that this can be readily down when wheels have been turne as this might "load" the drive train such that might significantly bind components. Not clear from your test description, when you tried to take off the tc motor and it torqued on you, was the switch position back at 2w and solid or in 4w flashing? (ie. was the motor at some solid state / known position?). My suspect was that it was trying to get back to 2w but perhaps was "lost" or maybe stuck.
 
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ts684

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May 29, 2013
81
OK. When I had car jacked off floor, turned switch to 4WD, flashing lite, put trans in neutral, turned ignition off, leaving switch at 4WD. Since I was only able to turn the TC shaft about 20 deg, I think I was only getting to A4WD. With TC motor in and activated, I think maybe it turns the TC shaft enough to at least partially engage A4WD. That's why all 4 wheels turn when I turn the driveshaft. I live in Pa. where it snows sometimes, sometimes a lot. Also, since I ski, it is a good idea to have 4WD. If I lived out of a snow area, I would just leave it.
 

budwich

Member
Jun 16, 2013
2,027
kanata
I know I hate to take a vehicle into the stealer but sometimes that's the only resort. IF you can get the codes / status of the "service 4wd" when it lights, that would certainly indicate what and where to look. Of course, if you could find someone with a tech2 to help you, that would be an alternative.

Some more comments on your "test report". When I try the same "exact process" as you have outlined.... key on, turn switch to 4wd (lo), tc switch light flashes for ever unless I put shift the tranny to neutral and then it takes a bit before things "clunk in". If I turn shift the tranny back to park and turn off the ignition... then turn it back on and try to turn the tc switch to 2w drive, it stays at 4wd. If I shift to neutral (brake on), it still stays at 4wd and will not go into 2w. I have to start the vehicle, put it in neutral and then switch the tc switch to 2wd to get there. Not sure why the difference but maybe because some components are "bound up" during one direction and the reverse direction is not achievable directly. I am not always able to hear the motor switching (bad hearing maybe) but do hear the front disconnects happened when things are set right.

I can't remember in all this, whether you did all your electrical checks at the connector of the motor.... The two for powering the motor would appear to work, the two for the brake enable likely work as you are hearing motor noise. The question would be the two for the position sensor / reading. If those two have issues then possibly the TCCM would not know where the state of the motor is. Although it is my understand that an outright failure of the pair (broken or shorted) would cause a code / service 4w indicator at key on / start up, not sure how true that is. IF it is, that would tend to point to the transfer case physical issues.... which likely means dropping to find out more.
 
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ts684

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May 29, 2013
81
Before I jacked the car up, I tried putting into 4HI while slowly rolling in gear toward the garage. Lite over 4Hi just flashed. Did not try 4Lo. I was able to power motor on the bench, so I think it's OK. I'm inclined to think that either the TC is jammed/stuck and/or the position sensor does not give correct reading. But what bothers me here is that I could only turn the shaft about 20 deg., even with quite a bit of force. Think I will wait until weather gets better to do anything else. I might then take a run by the local u-pull and see what I might see. Maybe pull a TC motor and see how far that shaft should turn.
 

TJBaker57

Member
Aug 16, 2015
2,897
Colorado
For reference sake the order of positions are 4Lo, Neutral, 2Hi, A4WD, 4Hi. Full ccw of the shift shaft is 4Lo, though to get it there will likely require some turning of a driveshaft for gearing to align and allow the shift. (See the owners manual where they state the optimum method is to be slowly rolling) Full CW is 4Hi. I believe the range of rotation to be somewhere about 120 degrees or so.

The range selection sensor output can be backprobed with a dmm at the TCCM. The TCCM connectors can be seen through the access panel near the drivers door hinge on the left end of the dash. There are 3 wires for the sensor, a reference ground, a supply voltage (5 vdc I think), and the return signal. The return on my 2002 is a brown/white wire. The connections are on the rightmost Blue connector seen in the attached picture (I'll try to get a sharper image later).
IMG_20190915_152857_HDR.jpg

The voltages should be close to this 4Lo=0.78, Nuetral=2.39, 2Hi=2.74, A4WD=3.15, 4Hi=3.78. these are averaged voltages I have observed on my own 2002 TrailBlazer with a new sensor installed.

And here is a weird thing I discovered. At least in my 2002 the sensor power is activated for about 15 or 20 seconds just by opening the drivers or front passenger door! No key or fob involved at all. Discovered this while testing voltages at the shift motor connector one day.
 
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ts684

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May 29, 2013
81
Hmmm. Ok, not quite what I expected in positions. When the TC first started acting up, I removed the TC motor and was able to turn the shaft 1 "click" CCW, thinking this was 2WD. When the TC motor would not line up, I realized that I had driven into the garage in 2WD and so I turned it back. I have not tried turning CCW since. I was able to turn 1 "click" CW like I said, although the first time took some force. What I don't understand is after remounting the TC motor, it was not able to go at least to A4WD. I will try testing for signal in the next few days but I am inclined to think that the TC is locked up somehow.
 

TJBaker57

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Aug 16, 2015
2,897
Colorado
I was somewhat remiss in not pointing out this important fact. Be very aware that by turning the transfer case shaft manually you may very well go into the transfer case neutral and if not prevented from rolling the vehicle will be free to roll. There will be no locking of any wheel by being in park. CHOCK YOUR WHEELS!!
 

TJBaker57

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Aug 16, 2015
2,897
Colorado
So as previously stated, I have now some better pictures to share. I also have a video but I see video is not a supported upload format so I'll need to investigate other options.

So first, here are the TCCM connections. The connector where the encoder signal return wire is will be the rightmost connector of the 3. It is the brn/wht wire, 3rd socket from the left on the top row. Note that the second socket is unused so it will be the 2nd wire from the top left.

IMG_20200422_175022.jpg

Here is an image with my probe in the correct spot to monitor the encoder position signal.

IMG_20200422_180020.jpg

I use a jumper wire and a small strip of metal I cut at a slant to make a nice pointed probe.

IMG_20200422_180052.jpg

I'm going to try sharing the videos straight from a google photo album. The first just shows the meter and where I have it hooked up.


This last video shows me cycling through the selector switch positions and the resulting measured voltages.


I might even try my hand at my first 'presentation' video, showing how this is all done from start to finish.... Someday.
 
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ts684

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May 29, 2013
81
Hmmmm. I was able to probe that connector but with an auto ranging Radio Shack DMM I got a reading of 0.03v with ignition on engine off in 2Hi. Turning switch to A4WD and then to 4Hi caused a voltage jump too brief to get and actual reading and a return to 0.03v. Also the lites were blinking over A4WD or 4Hi respectively with a steady lite over 2Hi. I'm inclined to think that the TC is jammed somehow.
 

TJBaker57

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Aug 16, 2015
2,897
Colorado
If you are certain you had a solid connection to the brown/white wire, which is seen in the wiring diagrams as C1, B6 at the TCCM, and you only show 0.03 vdc then there is something wrong in either the encoder ring inside the shift motor or something is wrong with the wiring between the TCCM and the shift motor.
 

budwich

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Jun 16, 2013
2,027
kanata
You can "verify" your test setup by checking for the supply / reference voltage. It should be there and stable for a longer time period. Go from the result.
 

ts684

Original poster
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May 29, 2013
81
I think the connection should be OK, I used a large straight pin with a jumper connected. The TC motor does make some sound but I don't think it turns enough to get into proper position. Remember I tried turning the TC shaft with vise grips and it didn't seem to "click" into position CW of 2Hi. (A4WD) Also wouldn't go past that point. I previously tried activating the motor connected but not installed. The motor shaft went to different positions but when I went from 4Hi to 2Hi, it backed up a bit but then reversed and went around almost 360deg. Could this have messed something up? Bench testing the old motor, it moves but slowly. Maybe need more power. Thinking of trying old motor, that will take a few days. Life and work interfere.
 

budwich

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Jun 16, 2013
2,027
kanata
the purpose of the suggested test was for you determine if you have a wiring AND / OR measurement issue. Further, pull the connector at the TCCM and do some resistance measurement towards the encoder motor. They will tell you what's up.
 

ts684

Original poster
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May 29, 2013
81
Uhh OK, but I think the primary problem is mechanical. I cannot turn the TC shaft thru a full range of motion with vise grips. Cannot turn CW from 2Hi thru A4WD to 4Hi. Wonder if the voltage reading I got was due to the TC motor making a full revolution when it was disconnected.
 

TJBaker57

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Aug 16, 2015
2,897
Colorado
Way back in post #7 of this thread are pictures of the position sensor inside the shift motor. That sensor, and the wiring between it and the TCCM, is the sole item in the entire truck that can tell the system what position the shift motor and transfer case is in. If there is any poor connection, cracked solder joint, dirt and or oil in the sensor, and so on the system will likely hunt around trying to yield a correct voltage return for the shift position selected by the mode switch. I would guess that at some point it will just throw up its hands and say "this isn't working" and disable itself and enable the service 4wd light. So if you are not getting the proper voltage readings at the TCCM then neither is the TCCM and it will simply not work correctly. Your test of the voltage(s) prove there is a fault with either the wiring from the TCCM to the encoder sensor or the encoder sensor itself.

Now I haven't ever tried myself to turn a transfer case shift selector with any kind of pliers. But looking at the amount of reduction gearing in these shift motor devices I would speculate it would take a great deal of torque to turn that shaft to certain positions or ranges. I said range because the A4WD or Auto 'position' is not a single location that will click into in any way. A4WD is a range of rotation that the TCCM via the shift motor will operate throughout to 'clutch in' and 'clutch out' the front driveshaft as needed, determined by the front and rear propshaft sensors.

If it were me (it has been in the past), I would get under there and disconnect the harness to the shift motor, then test for sensor power on the approriate wires to verify I had the 5 volts required there. If 5 volts present I would prove continuity of the sensor return voltage wire (brn/wht) from there to the TCCM. If all that checked out I would then remove the shift motor and insulator plate and remove and test the sensor itself for resistance through the 5 volt circuit portion as well as observing the resistance read by the signal return terminal and either 5 volt or ground (low ref) terminal, looking for smooth increasing or decreasing readings. Somewhere in this circuit there is an issue. Your backprobe test proves it.
 

Mektek

Member
May 2, 2017
656
FL
Even if the encoder motor is not installed, you should be able to shift between modes and all the indicator lights should light up normally. Since there is no feedback from the tc, only the encoder ring, the tccm has no idea if the encoder motor is installed or not (as long as it is connected electrically) There is one possibility - at one extreme of the rotation the tccm may rotate the encoder motor until it hits a mechanical stop at the TC. That would explain why the OP watched it rotate 360 degrees - no motor stall was detected. But that's just a theory.
Maybe there is a bad encoder ring in the new encoder motor?
 

ts684

Original poster
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May 29, 2013
81
OOOPPPSSS!!! When in doubt, read the directions again. OK, connecting to the correct wire I get from 2WD, A4WD, 4Hi readings of 2.5v, 3.6v, 4.0v. No change or any additional sound moving to 4Lo. In the same rightmost connector, is the 5v reference the third slot in the lower row? I am a bit color blind and under the dash too many look the same. If that is the reference, I have 5v.
 

ts684

Original poster
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May 29, 2013
81
Dang, must be the heat. That was 4 not 5v. I will pull the TC motor later and see what I have at the plug.
 

TJBaker57

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Aug 16, 2015
2,897
Colorado
No change or any additional sound moving to 4Lo.

Did the indicator lights at the mode switch do anything when the switch was rotated to 4Lo? Were you in Park/Neutral and was the engine running when attempting 4Lo? It has been said it won't shift to 4Lo unless running but mine does. However,,, sometimes I need to allow the vehicle to roll a little when attempting a shift to 4Lo to help the gears align. The manual recommends a slow roll. But if yours is not making any attempt to shift and no change in indicator lights then rolling or rocking the vehicle is not likely to do anything.

Did the system shift back and forth from 2HI through A4WD to 4Hi and then back to 2Hi OK?

In the same rightmost connector, is the 5v reference the third slot in the lower row?

That is the signal back from the control switch. In 2Hi it should read about 4 VDC.

IMG_20200422_175022.jpg
 

ts684

Original poster
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May 29, 2013
81
Ignition was on, engine was off. Turning selector resulted in light flashing above A4WD, 4Hi, and 4Lo but with a steady light over 2WD at the same time. I have 5v reference at the TC motor plug, also good ground, and constant battery power at orange wire. Also have 5v at grey C2,B8 and at grn/blk C2,A8. Pulled TC motor off, now I can't get it back on. Tried again to turn TC shaft with vise grips. Will have another go Thur AM. Almost forgot, turning selector also gave a service 4WD light on dash.
 

TJBaker57

Member
Aug 16, 2015
2,897
Colorado
Ignition was on, engine was off. Turning selector resulted in light flashing above A4WD, 4Hi, and 4Lo but with a steady light over 2WD at the same time. I have 5v reference at the TC motor plug, also good ground, and constant battery power at orange wire. Also have 5v at grey C2,B8 and at grn/blk C2,A8. Pulled TC motor off, now I can't get it back on. Tried again to turn TC shaft with vise grips. Will have another go Thur AM. Almost forgot, turning selector also gave a service 4WD light on dash.


Any time you are turning the shaft with pliers be certain the truck is immobilized, either up on jackstands or wheels chocked. If the shaft turns to the neutral position, which is between 2Hi and 4Lo position, the truck is free to roll even in Park. You likely already knew this but it bears repetition.

When you removed the TC motor did it feel like it rotated some as it was removed? If yes then that would explain the inability to put it back on as the shaft may then be out of alignment with the motor.

If the indicator lights never turned solid in any position other than 2Hi, but the voltage returned by the encoder at C1, B6 changes this indicates the shift motor is turning but not successfully coming to rest at the proper location. The voltages you listed are as much as a half volt off from what I have seen in other trucks. Why this happens is the question.
 

budwich

Member
Jun 16, 2013
2,027
kanata
one question about your "light observation"... you indicate lights flashing on ALL positions. Can you clarify. You need to go from the position of 2WD immediately to 4lo and not slowly turning the switch to each position along the way. What happens to the lights then?
 

ts684

Original poster
Member
May 29, 2013
81
Had front on jack stands, rear wheels blocked. I tried to turn TC shaft and it didn't quite get back to the starting point. Will raise rear today, seemed that when I turned driveshaft a bit that I was able to turn the TC shaft a bit more but it kept slipping back. Need more hands I guess. If I remember right, how fast or slow I turned selector switch didn't matter. Light steady over 2WD and flashing at selected position, but I'll try again and see. Something interesting, the original TC motor looked like the first pic in post #7. I don't remember seeing the circular cover as in the second pic. In other words, contacts were showing.

Still inclined to think the TC is jammed somehow, any idea on how to free up? Changed TC fluid back in Jan.

Since TC motor is off now anyway, I might try seeing what return voltages I get with it off.
 

TJBaker57

Member
Aug 16, 2015
2,897
Colorado
Something interesting, the original TC motor looked like the first pic in post #7. I don't remember seeing the circular cover as in the second pic. In other words, contacts were showing

I can clarify that.... In that first picture in post #7, on the rag there is the old original sensor. They were a closed design. Installed in the motor is the replacement. It is an open design. The other item in that picture is of course the insulator with the red/orange seals. It is of course required always.
 

TJBaker57

Member
Aug 16, 2015
2,897
Colorado
Had front on jack stands, rear wheels blocked. I tried to turn TC shaft and it didn't quite get back to the starting point. Will raise rear today, seemed that when I turned driveshaft a bit that I was able to turn the TC shaft a bit more but it kept slipping back. Need more hands I guess. If I remember right, how fast or slow I turned selector switch didn't matter. Light steady over 2WD and flashing at selected position, but I'll try again and see. Something interesting, the original TC motor looked like the first pic in post #7. I don't remember seeing the circular cover as in the second pic. In other words, contacts were showing.

Still inclined to think the TC is jammed somehow, any idea on how to free up? Changed TC fluid back in Jan.

Since TC motor is off now anyway, I might try seeing what return voltages I get with it off.


The easiest way to re-aliign the shift motor and transfer case is to use 2 9vdc batteries. One battery to disengage the shift motor brake circuit and the second battery to power the motor one way or the other to move it into alignment with the transfer case shaft for reassembly.
 

TJBaker57

Member
Aug 16, 2015
2,897
Colorado
This short feature in Gears Magazine talks of using the 9 vdc batteries to align the shift motor as well as other useful things like a pinout of the connector. They talk of a special harness but I imagine one could make due with small jumpers or some such thing.

 

TJBaker57

Member
Aug 16, 2015
2,897
Colorado
I just reread the thread. I see several times where you try to turn the shaft clockwise with vicegrips. Though I have never done this myself I have seen a couple different TC shift motors and the thing they have in common is high gear reduction. This convinces me that this a high torque operation. Turning clockwise past the 2Hi position begins to engage the 4wd clutch. I would expect this to take a lot of increasing force and is quite likely to be more than a pair of visegrips and a strong arm can provide! Turning CounterClockWise from 2WD goes first into neutral and then into 4Lo, again having to engage the 4WD clutch (ie high force required). So having not done this myself I would have to guess that any movement with pliers is only between the neutral and early engagement rates of A4WD.

What's my point here? I wouldn't jump to conclusions of transfer case failure based on not being able to turn the shaft with pliers. Your voltage reading from the encoder at the least suggest the shift motor is able to turn the transfer case to a 4 volt reading. That's a little higher than I have seen on vehicles I have worked on when in 4Hi and indicates it is getting fully clockwise. Since the 4Hi indicator stays flashing it suggests that either the 4 volt reading is not stable or is outside the range acceptable for a 4Hi shift to be considered successful by the TCCM. How stable were your readings? I'm afraid I do not have a chart of expected voltage ranges for the various positions, just the averages of readings I have monitored on working vehicles.

What was the source of the new TC shift motor?? What store and what brand?

Another thing that I am unsure of.... The validity of shift motor actions when connected electrically but not mechanically. Without torque applied to the motor would it rotate too fast for the electronics to react to? Could this explain the 360 degree rotation you once saw?
 

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