SOLVED! Stuck cam - suspected bearing was spun (but wasn't)

Reprise

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Headed back in the garage today to proceed with my project.

Got the other head off, all the lifters out (that was fun!), the valley cover off (even more fun)... and now I'm having some REAL fun...

Turns out my cam won't move (yes, I removed the retainer plate!). Very occasionally, I can get it to move maybe 1/2" or so. Then it gets stuck again.

At first, I though it was 'oil suction' holding it in (like with the lifters).
(Yes, I have all the lifters out - they're safe in their trays, stored with the other valvetrain parts.)

Finally, convinced something was wrong, I hopped on the web. Sure enough, it appears something is wrong - one of the cam bearings is likely seized, from what I'm reading.

Thing is, this engine had absolutely fantastic oil pressure and ran like a beast, before I pulled it apart. Regular members probably recall me saying this, on occasion. It's one reason I didn't want to put a high-pressure oil pump in.

I put a small plastic handled screwdriver (the plastic end) against the cam lobe in the front lifter valley hole - wouldn't move it. I can sacrifice the cam (by putting the business end against it), but I'd rather not do that if I can help it.

The other option is pulling the trans > flexplate > rear cover off, and attacking from the back.

If it *is* a stuck bearing, then a new one has to be installed. Meaning... pull engine (or drop the rotating assy, in truck).

It is an iron block, at least. LQ4 / 6.0L

Ideas? Thoughts? How f*cked am I? I'm thinking, "pretty f*cked", if my suspicions are correct...

I just recalled... before I took the heads / lifters out, it did spin freely... for about 3 revolutions.
F*ck...
 
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Reprise

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Gen III motor. If there's a cam sensor, it's news to me -?

And yeah - no movement to, fro, or axially. :Banghead:

For the time being, I'm letting it sit, while I compile useful info.

(on edit... ) ok, there's a cam sensor (thought there was only a crank sensor), but it's at the back of the block, and "doesn't have to come out") Was probably going to replace it anyway, but I don't think it's the source of the interference.
 
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Mounce

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Just so happened I looked up cam and lifter replacement today on alldata while bored at work (for an 03 5.3 but same deal) to gag at the book time and look at the procedures for fun and pulling the cam sensor was step one once you get down to it. I didn't think it would matter but I'm also unaware of what kind of reluctor wheel is on the back end of these cams. So without research I assumed there were clearance issues.

Weird stuff though considering it ran and spun by hand fine very recently. Maybe rust? Surely not in such an oil rich environment and so quick.

You're using some water pump bolts threaded into it for leverage/a handle right? Just wanted to make sure you were working with an ample grip. Kinda blowing my mind with your misfortune here.
 
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Reprise

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Yeah, I've got 2 WP bolts in it. I even put vise grips on the bolts, after turning them all the way into the cam threads - it just turns the bolt further / starts to bend it. For now, I'm not gonna 'gorilla' with it.

Remember, I can still take a cold chisel to the cam lobes that are visible in the valley, to try and drive it forward (or back). Keeping that in my back pocket, for now.

These have the 24x reluctor, btw. Appreciate you taking the time to continue replying, too.
 
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Mooseman

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Maybe there's a ring of caked on sludge on the cam's bearing surface. Maybe see if you can spray some WD 40 to try and dissolve any coked on crap and give it some lubrication. Maybe turn while pulling it out. And if you want to gorilla it, maybe put a slide hammer on it?

When I did my DOD delete, it came out like butter. I sure hope your bearings are OK.
 
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mrrsm

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Stupid Question... Since you are posting this problem outside of your Main Build Thread... and assuming this is a DOD-AFM set up... Did ALL of the Roller Camshaft Lifters come out or did perhaps some part or portion of any one of them get jammed down inside of any of the Cam Bores? The AFM Lifters are NOT Solid State and so stranger things have happened.

Cast a Graduated Eyeball Glance down into the adjacent valleys with a Bright Flashlight and see if maybe you dropped a Fastener... or even Small Tool into the Works when you pulled the VLOM Cover off? It Never Hurts to Double Check...
 
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Mooseman

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It's an 04, pre-DOD and a 6.0L. No DOD.
 
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mrrsm

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Okay... Better & Better... But..

Loose Parts + Open Engine Areas + Gravity = Trouble Just Waiting to Happen... Time for a Bright Light and a Telescoping Pencil Probe Magnet...
 
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Reprise

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Stupid Question... Since you are posting this problem outside of your Main Build Thread... and assuming this is a DOD-AFM set up... Did ALL of the Roller Camshaft Lifters come out or did perhaps some part or portion of any one of them get jammed down inside of any of the Cam Bores? The AFM Lifters are NOT Solid State and so stranger things have happened.

Cast a Graduated Eyeball Glance down into the adjacent valleys with a Bright Flashlight and see if maybe you dropped a Fastener... or even Small Tool into the Works when you pulled the VLOM Cover off? It Never Hurts to Double Check...

Yep, I put this outside my build thread, for a couple of reasons; the main one being that I figured this would get more eyeballs on it faster. I'll mention this in that thread, but that'll be later.

The cam was technically 'stuck' before I got the lifters out (I had figured that pushing the pushrods down before spinning the cam was a mistake, and jammed one or more of them within the lobes and the lifter bores... so at the time, I thought the lifters were causing the 'stuck' condition).

It wasn't until after I got them out that I seriously tried moving the cam again. As far as dropping anything down the lifter bore - I don't think so. I did have to use a pair of needlenose to get them out (and one was especially 'stuck'), but I got them all out in one piece (they looked terrific for 230K, too).

The valley cover, I left on until I started trying to pull the cam again. So I didn't drop anything down there, either. I do take care (one reason I don't work as fast as some other people).
The lower plate of the 'core support' up front (where the rad and condenser sit) makes for an awesome tool / part tray! :laugh:

While you guessed wrong as to my motor having DOD, etc. ... I do appreciate you (and everyone) bringing stuff up. 'Out of the box' thinking is what I'm looking for, and definitely welcome. There are no 'stupid' questions, right now, as far as I'm concerned. Just try and keep the questions fairly simple -- I lost my slide rule a long time ago :dielaugh:

I'm going to wait until tomorrow to tackle this further (feel free to comment further in the meantime). Am going to start researching possibility of me doing one or more new cam bearings in-car (but probably not feasible... I don't know how I'd get the crank back in w/o damaging it (I know it's not light, and I'd be working on my back). So I'd most likely have to pull the motor, whether I installed the bearings, or had a shop do it.
 

mrrsm

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NP ...Will Do, Brother...

Was wondering... Since the "Chain Link" Connection from the Crankshaft & Rotating Assembly to the Camshaft is presently absent... Have you tried applying a Socket & Breaker Bar to VERY SLOWLY Rotate the Crank.. (only ever in the Clockwise Direction) and listen for any disturbing sounds of something Mechanical falling down internally?
 
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Reprise

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Just came up w/ an idea...

The cam sprocket / chain connection to the crank provides enormous mechanical advantage, vs me trying to spin the cam alone.

I'll inspect, reattach, and try spinning the assembly. Will post back later today w/ results (replies still welcome, although I tend not to pick up the phone w/ hands full of grease... lol).

And all of this before cuppah #1. Sometimes, I even impress myself... lmao. :coffee:
 
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mrrsm

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With the Heads removed...You won't have to be concerned about Cam to Crank Timing... but still mind the #1 Piston being back in TDC so the relationship is not 180 Degrees out later on. And REALLY go carefully with the Breaker Bar Torque...

Gears_animation.gif

"Softly, Softly... Catchee Monkey..." Peter Lorre as 'Mr. Moto'
 
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Reprise

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Good news. I got the thing out - AND - both the cam journals and the bearings appear to be undamaged!

I'll post some pics & tips later today, after a shower & kicking off dinner.
(will post them here first, so please don't close the thread - thx.)

I also have a tip for getting the oil pump <> pickup tube bolt out 'safely' (and I didn't have to touch the oil pan to get the pump off the pickup tube, nor did I damage the pickup tube). I do intend on pulling both later; just wanted to avoid pulling now if I could (and I did!)

Inspecting the back end of the cam after cleaning it, the only marking I found was an 'F' stamped into it. So it's a stock cam, after all. I guess it's just a great running "1%'er" (in my eyes, anyway). Or the old one had lost some 'oomph'. Who knows... lol.

Oil pump has a GM part # on the back. And the smaller timing sprocket (on the crank) has sharp teeth. I may leave the thing on there, and just replace the chain / cam sprocket.


Happy as a pig again -- this time, like one who got delivered to the Smithfield meat processing plant and found out it was closed. :dielaugh:
 

mrrsm

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Not knowing how soon it will be before the New Bump Stick goes into the Motor...

Many Engine Builders will say, "Aw ...Just make sure you coat the Journals on the Camshaft with any kind of Motor Oil... and it'll be Good to Go..."

Rubbish...


Even on a Roller Camshaft Engines such as the GM LS Motors are LUCKY enough to sport in their designs... besides avoiding a complete "Dry Start" by not pre-lubricating the Oil Galleries and Camshaft, Crankshaft and Con-Rod Bearings on long dormant or Brand New Assembled Engines. Giving that Brand New TS&P Roller Camshaft the BEST ability to begin its life is an expected outcome if one uses a proper Engine Assembly Lube.

Just consider that with the replacement of the Old Stock Upper Valve Train, by installing the High Lift Roller Rocker Lifters and Push Rods, the presence of stronger downward pressures being exerted on the Roller Rockers and Camshaft Lobes by the New Valve Springs demands using The Real Deal... Like Permatex Ultra-Slick Engine Assembly Lube Part # 81950. It's one way to Build a Motor and Be Sure... such as applying it on the Timing Chain & Camshaft Sprocket. the cupped tops of the Roller-Rockers and the Tips of the Push Rods during re-assembly. Not bad for being available for 6.00 on Amazon:



PERMATEXULTRASLICKLUBE.jpg

...and the Best Technique for applying 'The Raspberry Stuff' to the TS&P Camshaft is to ONLY 'Butter the BACK HALF of the Camshaft with the Lube FIRST ....and then after carefully feeding in that portion through the Old Cam Bearings so as not to nick them... 'Butter the FRONT HALF' and feed it the rest of the way in.

For anyone leaving the Heads ON during this TS&P Camshaft Upgrade installation... Don't pull out the Two Roller Lifter Retention Dowel Rods until you've spun the camshaft around smoothly and then Install the CAM Cover ASAP with Thread Locker and the Proper Torque right away. Double Check your Plate Fasteners installation before re-installing the Oil Pump and the Timing Cover.

One last thought..
. The presence of razor sharp teeth on Gears and Sprockets is NOT a Good Sign. Obtaining a Replacement Timing Chain and Sprocket Kit for a motor with 1/4 Million Miles of Hard Wear & Tear would be well advised.
 
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Reprise

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Sorry for the delay in posting the promised pics, etc. Here's what things look like...

First, two shots of the cam (you can tell by the WP bolts that you're looking at two different sides). All in all, I think it looks pretty good for 230K...

Note - I altered the brightness & contrast on these two shots to try and show the best detail.

0426_cam01.jpg
0426_cam02.jpg

Next, the bearings. I took about 20 pics of these, but am posting what I think are the best two.
The first one is the one at the front of the block. It's representative of all five, TBH.
I can say that the oiling holes looked to be intact and didn't 'walk' on any of the bearings.


0426_Bearing01.jpg

0426_Bearing02.jpg

As to how I got it out...
- First, I reinspected the lifter bores, valley cutouts, etc., *just in case* I had missed removing something. (I hadn't.)

- Next, finished removing the oil pump (I had removed the bolts, earlier, and turned it a bit, so I figured it was now misaligned, and didn't want to cause any potential problems.)
To get the retaining bolt out that joins pump to pickup tube, I used:
- A thin 10mm combination wrench​
- The extra room that I afforded myself by removing the four pump <> block retaining bolts​
- A telescoping magnet.​

First, loosen the bolt with the open end of the wrench. After enough turns, it'll be loose enough for the magnet, when applied to the bolt and pushed forward (leftward)... to turn the bolt in place of the wrench. Release it from the bolt, and repeat the movement. Yes, it's a bit tedious.

Eventually, it will drop out of the threaded hole. And be held in place, by the magnet. Yes, it requires a fairly steady hand to then remove the magnet from the inner area. But it wasn't too bad -- certainly not like playing the old 'Operation' game - there's a bit more room.

Also, if the bolt *does* fall into the pan, there's enough room / space at the front that the bolt will only drop about 1" or so, at least on my pan (full-size pickup). Just drag the magnetic tip along the inside surface of the front of the pan until you find the bolt (this didn't happen to me, but it was my 'plan B', if needed.)

With the bolt out, the connection to the pickup tube will now have enough play that you can work the pump off the crank snout. It'll take a few minutes to work it off, alternating back and forth, but it'll finally release, on the RH side first. Then, lift up on the pump to free it from the pickup tube & come off the LH side. Yes, it takes some effort, but it's a lot less onerous than dropping the pan, especially if you have 4WD, or weren't planning on dropping the pan, otherwise.

With the pump off, you can reattach the cam sprocket & chain, then attach a breaker & 24mm socket to the crank bolt. Thread at least one longer WP bolt into the cam retainer holes. You don't need the original bolts for this; they'll do no good.

The next step takes two hands...
While turning the crank bolt (clockwise) with one hand, and the cam begins also turning, pull on the WP bolt, while the cam is turning. You need to use some effort, but it won't be all of your strength.
When you reach the end of your travel with the breaker, stop & 'reload'. Then repeat the exercise as needed, until the first cam journal fully clears the bearing, up front

Once you're at that point, the chain & top sprocket will be out of alignment with the bottom, and will actually slip off the teeth of the bottom sprocket. At that point, you don't need the cam sprocket attached any longer (you can then use the sprocket as a handle, to pull / turn with both hands and ensure the cam is moving freely, as well).

Remove any bolts you have holding the cam sprocket to the cam.

While the chain is tight against the cam & crank sprockets, and can't be moved by hand, there's an open casting hole at the top of the block. Take a tool of your choice that will reach from inside the valley, through that hole, and give a couple of love taps to the sprocket. It'll fall off the cam, and you're then free to remove the cam, as per 'normal'.

So... using that procedure, and given what I can see of the results... I ordered my cam today, and a few other items, using various sources. Still have more to order, and will do that tomorrow.

BTW... Apologies that I didn't get a pic of the trick I used on the cam sprocket -- like I said, it took both hands, and they were a bit greasy, as well. But I'm fine with 'recreating' it (w/o putting the cam back in the block), if someone would like a pic to illustrate what it looks like. I haven't seen any other pics / description of doing this online (which, surprises me, frankly).


And finally, a reply to MRRSM's last post...

One last thought... The presence of razor sharp teeth on Gears and Sprockets is NOT a Good Sign. Obtaining a Replacement Timing Chain and Sprocket Kit for a motor with 1/4 Million Miles of Hard Wear & Tear would be well advised.

Actually, the tooth sharpness indicates *lack* of wear. The teeth aren't 'razor' sharp; I didn't cut myself or anything. But I can feel the sharpness on the lower sprocket, and it definitely feels sharper than the cam sprocket, TBH.

Now... with that said, I had ordered a replacement timing set this morning. But I may reuse the bottom sprocket, especially if it feels as 'new' as... the new one. :laugh: I'll replace the cam sprocket and the chain, for sure. Oh, and I ordered cam lube from Comp, as well -- while they supply a little 'condiment sized' packet of their lube, and instruct that it be used, I ordered an extra 4oz bottle, as I plan on lubing the bearings in the block, as well as the cam journals / lobes (I have a plan for that!), along with the lifter bores & contact surfaces of the lifters. Just as some extra insurance, if my pre-oiling doesn't work well (or I have 'no' oil pressure after starting, due to pump cavitation, etc.)

And finally, here's the 'money shot', with everything off / out, just waiting to be cleaned & receive its new parts...

All_Out.jpg
 

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