Steering vehicle veers hard - please read for better explanation

[jmonica]

HI Everyone. I'm really hoping someone can help me because my Envoy is my daily and my only working vehicle and as of now, its downright dangerous to drive. I honestly don't know exactly what to search for, so I will attempt to explain the problem as briefly as possible.

When driving in a straight line, if the car catches a small groove in the road, or if the road starts to slightly lean one way or the other, the car will suddenly veer to one side or the other.

It feels as if both front wheels are turning but without driver input or without turning the steering wheel.

Also at one point when I would brake, the car would pull hard right but steering wheel hardly moves. Believing I had a bad caliper, I replaced both fronts. That did help some but did not totally eliminate the pulling upon braking.

Upon further inspection I could see play in inner tie rod ends, so I replaced all of the ends, both inner and outer. No help

I also noticed that the end link on one side of the front ARB or ASB was very loose. The nut was not fully tightened. I replaced both front end links and made sure they are tight. No help.

The problem is getting worse. One would think that an inspection would reveal an obvious problem that is this severe. I can't find anything that is obviously loose or failing. No leaks from the steering rack. No apparent strut or spring problems.

I've tried to do an inspection on my back with front on jack stands and tried prying here and there to find any failed or worn out parts like rubber bushings, or any parts that are worn out and so far I haven't detected anything out of the ordinary.

I do realize that a problem like this is difficult to diagnose without being able to check the car out in person. I also realize that I am not explaining it very well. I just don't know how else to describe what's happening beyond what I've mentioned here.

If anyone has any ideas on what things I might want to take a closer look at, it would really help? Anything specific I should look at (besides everything)?

I would be very grateful for any guidance and you literally and figuratively might be a lifesaver. Unfortunately I can't afford to have a shop repair it. Even spending just a $100 - $150 to have it diagnosed by a shop is a problem right now because I got laid-off recently when he company I worked for for 15+ years was sold to a company in TX.

Finally, I have driven a lot of old, worn out cars over the years. I'm talkin' real sh&tbox pickups that had almost half a turn of play in the steering wheel and an old Renault that had a failed rack and pinion. 1960's era box trucks with a half million miles and little to no maintenance, etc.
This feels more like something is either broken or has fallen apart rather than just a worn out part because the problem came on kind of quickly. The problem with that assessment is that it appears to be getting worse, I have never been afraid to drive a car like I am now with this one.
Thanks for reading this.

Regards
Jim

 

[aaserv]

Definitely a weird problem. Since youve ckd for play in various front end parts Id start with the simple things. 1st the tires, maybe swap back to front and see what happens? Id also want to ck the alignment. I know that costs money but at the same time a good front end man might something that your missing underneath...

 

[Mooseman]

You didn't mention (or I missed) the A-arm bushings. I had the same problem when the bushings were worn to the point that the lower A-arm just moved around by hand. And an alignment shop even missed that when I took it in for an alignment.

Another thing to check is the rear suspension for worn bushings, broken arms or rusted off arm mounts on the frame.

 

[Matt]

You might also want to check the LCA bracket that bolts to the truck. I had an alignment done and the shop didn't torque them up. As soon as I hit the brakes the truck veered with no steering input...almost crashed on my way home.

 

[budwich]

Upon further inspection I could see play in inner tie rod ends, so I replaced all of the ends, both inner and outer. No help

Of course, you had a wheel alignment shortly thereafter? They didn't find any other issue?

 

[azswiss]

Jack the front wheels off the ground and check for any play. Put your hands at 6 o'clock & 12 o'clock and alternate push/pull on each hand. Any slop or looseness? Any play in the forward and rearward directions? Do the same at 3 o'clock & 9 o'clock. Repeat on the rear wheels.

 

[jmonica]

You didn't mention (or I missed) the A-arm bushings. I had the same problem when the bushings were worn to the point that the lower A-arm just moved around by hand. And an alignment shop even missed that when I took it in for an alignment.

Another thing to check is the rear suspension for worn bushings, broken arms or rusted off arm mounts on the frame.

Thank You Mooseman. I'm going to check the bushings tomorrow. I haven't really checked them. I did recently have the alignment done. My alignment was so far out of whack. The outer treads looked perfect but the inner treads were down to the belts, or inner liner. About a one ich wide white strip and they only had less than 5k miles on them
So I changed the tie rod ends, put new tires on the front and had it aligned. I thought for sure that would solve the problem but it was more pronounced. I mean the car felt really weird man. I went less than 10 yards and it was evident I still had a problem.
I was thinking that if something was still wrong after I changed the tie rods, that they wouldn't have been able to do the alignment if too much play, but they didn't say anything. I know they did the alignment because my steering wheels was straightened out. i will report back with my findings. Thank You again!

 

[jmonica]

You might also want to check the LCA bracket that bolts to the truck. I had an alignment done and the shop didn't torque them up. As soon as I hit the brakes the truck veered with no steering input...almost crashed on my way home.

Ahh ok thanks. This sounds like it could be the problem as well. I just had it aligned. Thanks very much for the suggestion. I will post back tomorrow after I have a chance to check it out.

 

[jmonica]

Of course, you had a wheel alignment shortly thereafter? They didn't find any other issue?

Yes, I did have an alignment done. I'm not confident the guy was all that great though. Or maybe just lazy. Given the severity of the problem, I would think it would have been almost impossible to do a proper alignment but they charged me and they didn't indicate any trouble. Thank You!

 

[jmonica]

You didn't mention (or I missed) the A-arm bushings. I had the same problem when the bushings were worn to the point that the lower A-arm just moved around by hand. And an alignment shop even missed that when I took it in for an alignment.

Another thing to check is the rear suspension for worn bushings, broken arms or rusted off arm mounts on the frame.

I forgot to mention that I am going to go over the rear end tomorrow as well as you suggested. I considered the problem being in the rear, but I'm convinced its front end related. I'd fall over if it turns out to be the rear. It just feels like its in the front.
What about a problem with the strut towers or the top of strut hardware? Under the hood, the top of the drivers side strut is very rusted as is the hardware. that bolts the strut to the

Jack the front wheels off the ground and check for any play. Put your hands at 6 o'clock & 12 o'clock and alternate push/pull on each hand. Any slop or looseness? Any play in the forward and rearward directions? Do the same at 3 o'clock & 9 o'clock. Repeat n the rear wheels.

Ok thanks I will give it a try tomorrow. I feel like I did what you suggested, but the little play that I felt was related to the tie rods and L replaced those. Honestly after replacing those and he alignment, I did not try rocking the wheels and I should have. I appreciate the tip and I will post back when I discover. Thank!

 

[jmonica]

Can I ask you guys a dumb question? I mean, another dumb question? When the car veers like I mentioned, I really feel like it's both front wheels moving that's causing the problem. Is there something that would cause both wheels to move at the same time? Thanks again friends! I am grateful for all of your replies and attempts to help.

 

[Mooseman]

What about a problem with the strut towers or the top of strut hardware? Under the hood, the top of the drivers side strut is very rusted as is the hardware. that bolts the strut to the

Maybe. The struts only hold up (or down) the lower A-arms, unlike McPhersons that actually replace the upper A-arms. You should still check them for broken springs or a weak strut that may allow uncontrolled movement.

 

[azswiss]

Is there something that would cause both wheels to move at the same time?

Is there any play between the steering wheel and the steering rack?

 

[budwich]

Yes, I did have an alignment done. I'm not confident the guy was all that great though. Or maybe just lazy. Given the severity of the problem, I would think it would have been almost impossible to do a proper alignment but they charged me and they didn't indicate any trouble. Thank You!

I would suggest that you try another shop. Inner wear on both tire likely suggest an issue with the lower control section (iue. bushings) IF there isn't a "normal" alignment issue.

 

[jmonica]

Maybe. The struts only hold up (or down) the lower A-arms, unlike McPhersons that actually replace the upper A-arms. You should still check them for broken springs or a weak strut that may allow uncontrolled movement.

OK, Thanks. I think I have

I would suggest that you try another shop. Inner wear on both tire likely suggest an issue with the lower control section (iue. bushings) IF there isn't a "normal" alignment issue.

Well budwich AND Mooseman AND Matt and everyone else who pointed me towards checking out the control arm [and bracket] bushings.

A quick inspection reveals deteriorated bushings and/or no bushing left at all in the LCA's.

One side is worse than the other. I can move the control arm on the drivers side and see it moving.
While I wasn't able to move the pass. side, I can see those are breaking apart as well [Not that I wouldn't change both sides if only one was failing anyway].

You guys are geniuses I tell ya! I've attached a few photos to prove your hypothesis/diagnoses.

Now the big question is, can I replace just the bushings and get by? I've never done CA bushings but if I can't press them in myself, I can't imagine a place charging too much for them. OR Maybe they seel two ones that don't need to be pressed? Given my ball joints are new, it would save me a lot of money that I really don't have right now if I can replace only the bushings. The easiest would be to buy 4 new or rebuilt arms ones obviously but, that's not an option for me unfortunately.

Sorry I'm droning on, I talk too much. I will post any updates as I have them, assuming I don't drive the thing into a telephone pole or bridge abutment before I can get it fixed that is.

I can't thank you guys enough for pointing me in the right direction!

 

[Mooseman]

Replacing bushings is a real PITA. You can replace just the lower CA brackets.

 

[budwich]

Its amazing that the alignment "guys" didn't notice this. You might consider a new place to take your vehicle in the future. As suggested, you can readily get the whole bracket for less than $75 (I think I got mine for $60 iirc).

 

[jmonica]

Replacing bushings is a real PITA. You can replace just the lower CA brackets.

Ok That was going to be my next question, Looks like a set of replacement brackets is around $85. I can swing that. I didn't really check the top control arms. I guess I should replace those too. Thank You Moseman! You're the best man!

 

[TequilaWarrior]

I juuuust did upper control arms and lower control arm assemblies (and strut assemblies, and outers, and mounting hardware).

Consider this thread: https://gmtnation.com/forums/thread...th-sides-plus-bjs-and-tie-rods-how-bad.23141/

A mixture of ATF & acetone applied to the mounting bolts (liberally) will be your friend in this. It smells awful, but worked exceptionally well for me.

I replaced bolts wherever I could readily source the proper replacement (upper control arm mounting bolts specifically). You will need to bend some sheetmetal out of the way to remove the uca mounting bolts.

Use extreme caution when lifting and supporting your vehicle - jackstands are an absolute must. I also place removed wheels under the frame as extra insurance. It's saved my butt a few times.

You will absolutely need an alignment after this - please, do not return to any shop that overlooked this issue ever again.

 

[Mooseman]

Its amazing that the alignment "guys" didn't notice this.

Not really. Happened to me twice. I don't go there anymore.

 

[Mike534x]

I had a similar issue like everyone else here. The first shop that did the alignment (Firestone) didn't have the control arms tightened down, braking resulted in needing the steering wheel turned a quarter to the left due to the truck going into the right hand side of the road. I just had an alignment done, but its going back because the steering wheel is off a degree or too to the left. Nothing major, just slight OCD kicking in and its bugging me lol.

The upper control arms were pretty darn easy, like everyone said you'll need to bend some of the inner fender metal to clear the bolt backing in and out. I solved that by using the 24" breaker bar and gave it a few love bends, and ratcheting wrenches made the job much smoother/quicker. With the arms out, it'd be a good idea to check those ball joints to see if they're still good.

When you had the front lifted, and checked for play did you also grab the wheels to see if there was play from the tie-rods as well? Even with the control arm being bad, the amount of play in your steering still seems very excessive. Just going off what you described, is exactly what happened with my Dad's Yukon when the "new" Detroit Axle parts failed. The tie-rods had a 1/2" of play and any bump/imperfection in the road caused the steering to just do whatever it wanted regardless of whether the steering wheel was dead center.

 

[jmonica]

So just reporting back Once you guys pointed me in the right direction, I purchased a set of LCA brackets. Based on every thing I read and watched (on YT), I was dreading this install, but after its said and done, it wasn't that bad. I didn't have to remove half of what the videos said was necessary. The hardest part for me was sliding the new brackets into place, but some lube and a sledge hammer made fast work of that.

After it was done I knew I'd need another front end alignment but after finishing I took it for a test drive to see how tight my steering was now that I "fixed it". That was the shortest test drive in history. I got about 10 yards, turned around and put it back on jack stands. I really thought I had either left something off or over tightened something. It was almost undrivable.

The steering wheel was almost 180 degrees off. I could turn the wheel and the car would still go straight. If I turned the wheel a little and let go, it would finish turning and go to full lock left or right.

Anyway, I couldn't figure out what I had done wrong. This is the first time ever that I walked away from a fix feeling totally defeated, dejected and like a failure especially because I couldn't figure out what was wrong. It's my DD,I ad an interview the day after next and I had no idea how I was going to get it back on the road. So the next day i walk outside and see that the front wheels were both pointed severely inward and it looks to me like the camber was way off too.

Well that was it. The alignment shop had to align it three times according to them because it was so out of whack. I still don't understand how you are supposed to get it close when you change the LCA brackets given the long slots the bolts go through to hold the brackets in place. They could be tightened in a million places and from what I know, that's not something that's adjusted during a FWA. I was afraid there wouldn't be enough adjustment in the tie rods strut towers etc to compensate for the total out of whackness I had going on. So I just dropped it off and crossed my fingers that the shop would get it aligned.

They did and I drove home TOTALLY in between the lines, no pulling when I slammed on the brakes, so swerving, its nice and tight now and finally after many months of trying, its back to feeling like the Envoy and I know and love.

This whole thing was an adventure. Out of all of the things I've had to fix, transmission, engine swap, gas tank removal, electrical gremlins, for some reason this steering problem just drained me.

Anyway that's my saga. Hopefully you felt like reading a novel tonight because I just wrote one. FWIW, I posted a pic of the old LCA with the bad bushing. I'm still amazed that amount of play in the bad bushing was enough to make the vehicle swerve as violently as it did.

So it's on to the next job, Replacing carpets and stripping everything off the strut towers under the hood to clean them up and replace all of the rusted brackets and top strut hardware etc. Other than they I have the engine bay looking like new, right down to the factory emission stickers on the airbox.

 

[Mooseman]

The LCAs adjust both the camber and caster using those slots so unless you take very good measurements of the old ones relative to the frame, it will be out of whack. I had the same problem when I replaced them on the Saab and my truck constantly sounded like I was in the movie NFS: Tokyo Drift.

 

[TequilaWarrior]

I had very similar experiences after my UCA/LCA install. My test drive was around 100 yards because I couldn't back it up and there was no turning around. If your toe-in is off by any significant portion all kinds of funky things happen while steering and your rack will hate you for it. As for LCA position adjustment - that is actually how they adjust camber and caster. I believe it's the first thing they adjust. I'm not a chassis tech, but I think that's how the layout of these works out. Set your LCA position, check camber and caster and adjust as necessary then adjust toe-in.
My drive home from the alignment shop was similar as well... I almost didn't recognize my own vehicle.

 

[jmonica]

The LCAs adjust both the camber and caster using those slots so unless you take very good measurements of the old ones relative to the frame, it will be out of whack. I had the same problem when I replaced them on the Saab and my truck constantly sounded like I was in the movie NFS: Tokyo Drift.

Ahh I thought so. I mean it was severely out of whack before the alignment. I really thought I’d left something loose. Thank You