Split liner or casing tire scam ?

Camdo

Original poster
Member
May 16, 2015
71
My last two cars had aluminum wheels which tend to corrode and leak air. I have noticed that when the tire tread is low and I have the leaker repaired, the tire store service manager inevitably gives me the sad story that I have split tire liners and should have new tires installed. Unfortunately I am not allowed into the service bay to witness this condition, and probably wouldn't know what I was looking at anyway. Since this has happened on many previous occasions, at the same tire store, I am wondering if I am being scammed for a new set of tires?
How prevalent is tire failure from a cracked liner? I have experienced this condition 4 times in the past 15 years or so, and each time it was a leaker on alloy wheels, near the end of its tread life, and each time I opted for a new set of tires.

I can think that driving on a poorly inflated tire could cause its liner or casing to split or crack, but since most tires do experience low inflation at some point in it's life cycle, it must be designed to withstand this condition. And since alloy wheels are so common, there must be a lot of tires running low inflation, and thus split liners should be the number one cause of tire failure?? So is this so, or am I being scammed?

Just to be clear, I am not talking very low inflation or near flat, but around 15-20psi before I notice the tire is low. And not many miles at low inflation either, I'll guess about 50 miles before I notice the condition.
 

DAlastDON

Member
Apr 6, 2014
5,550
Kentucky
Never heard of a "split liner". Anytime there has ever been a problem in the service bay the person at the counter always took me in the service bay to show me. Despite the signs on the door to the service bay stating that customers are not to go in. They are following the rules the the T at the service center you are visiting. But i will say this. If they tell me something is messed up on my wheels and do not take me into the service bay, they damn well are going to bring that wheel inside the store to show me or im out and not to return.
 

Blckshdw

Moderator
Nov 20, 2011
10,665
Tampa Bay Area, FL
this has happened on many previous occasions, at the same tire store

Time to get a 2nd opinion at a different tire store. Without mentioning it of course, and see if they come to the same conclusion. :twocents:
 

Mounce

Member
Mar 29, 2014
13,667
Tuscaloosa, AL
Working at a shop that does 30-90 tires a month, I have also never heard of a split liner.

If you go miles on a flat it'll shred the inside of the side wall but never heard of a split liner. Flat as in the sidewall is touching the ground like tread. In such a condition the outside of the sidewall also gets worn down to a point that the brand and other words are gone.

But never heard of a split liner.

-on a side note, like said earlier, if you're not allowed back then get can bring the tire to you. Make them show you. There are crooks out there.
 
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Chickenhawk

Member
Dec 6, 2011
779
Yes, you are getting scammed. I am guessing you live in a more northern climate? You are experiencing simple rim leaks. Tires that are used during winter nearly ALWAYS need to be broken off the rim and resealed every 3 to 4 years with regularity. What happens is the moisture from road salt will leech in between the tire and the wheel, and cause corrosion on aluminum wheels.

It is a simple solution and happens to everyone who drives in winter. Find a tire dealer who will reseal the tires for you. They take them off the wheel, wire brush the corrosion off the rims and apply a sticky rim-sealing compound.

The reason why new tires solve the problem for a few years - and how that dealer has gotten away with this scam for so long - is that new tires are more flexible in the rim area, plus when they install them, they probably clean off the rim. If you have sufficient tread and if your tires aren't cracked from age, then you got taken.

In fact, if your tires had useful tread left and no age cracks, I would suggest a complaint to the BBB and bad reviews on every single review site you can find. Don't even go back and ask for a refund because they are not just incompetent, they are out and out crooks.

By the way, there is no such thing as a tire liner. (I bet they have been selling you on the "benefits" of nitrogen in your tires too!)
 
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stickypoop

Member
Oct 14, 2014
872
Never heard of tire liners when tubes were not also part of the equation. Are you taking your truck to a bicycle shop? :squint:
 
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mrrsm

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Chickenhawk

Member
Dec 6, 2011
779
If you had useful tread left and no age cracks, I would even suggest you post the name of the shop on this forum so others can avoid it. If it's a chain, send a letter to the head office.

Obviously, there will be disagreements on what is "useful tread" left, but if there are years of life left, you got taken. If there is not much life left, they are being careful (and love to upsell, like most other businesses.)

If you have the old tires, all you have to do is take a close up photo of the tread with a coin inserted in it. We can then judge for you whether they should have been changed.
 
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mrrsm

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Chickenhawk

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Dec 6, 2011
779
Nitrogen is an out-and-out scam. I am not even going to waste my time viewing videos that use junk science to try to explain benefits that don't exist. Anyone who tries to sell you on nitrogen is scamming you.

We revealed the scam in a major law enforcement magazine two years ago, and you will NEVER find a police car in the country using nitrogen that did not come in the tires from the dealer. Even then, when refilled, they are refilled with 78% nitrogen instead of 96% nitrogen. (In other words - air.)

Anyone who tells you that nitrogen leaks less has ZERO concept of the size of a molecule. They are so tiny that ten million of them take up less space than the size of the period at the end of this sentence. Nitrogen and oxygen are also very close to the same size, with only 4% difference between them. (Check out any periodic table. They are side by side on the periodic table that orders elements by molecule size.)

In interviews for the article, one former mechanic at a dealership admitted the green nitrogen tanks had been empty for years. They filled them with the air compressor and charged $12 a tire for nitrogen.

Another mechanic told us (anonymously) that he LOVED to see those lime green valve caps because he knew he could sell that sucker ANYTHING.

Believing in this scam is not keeping an open mind. It is perpetuating a fallacy that has been refuted by every single legitimate automotive expert who knows what they are talking about and who have no connection to tire dealers or are being sponsored by tire companies.

Think about it. If oxygen molecules really DID leak more readily than nitrogen and considering that air is already 78% nitrogen, all you would have to do is wait for your tires to leak out air and top them up with more air. The 21% of oxygen would leak out first, so 21% of the tire volume would now be filled with 78% nitrogen and 21% oxygen. This means that oxygen has now dropped to 21% of 21%. So with one fill, oxygen is now down to 4% and nitrogen is now up to near 100% of the original 78% volume plus 78% of the replacement volume, which means you are now sitting at 94%. This is with ONE fill. In two more top-up fills, you will now approach 100% nitrogen FOR FREE - which is even better than the 98% they say they are selling you. Not bad eh? (Do the math.)

The only problem with the above is that oxygen does NOT leak out more readily. This is why we call it this junk science the consumer scam of the decade.
 
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mrrsm

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Mooseman

Moderator
Dec 4, 2011
25,262
Ottawa, ON
I knew it was a scam from day 1. Only time I EVER had nitrogen in my tires was in our new van and they put it in free. Had nice metal caps with N2 on them. Ha! Lets just say they didn't get too much money out of me.

Actually thinking of getting a TPMS system to make checking the tires easier.
 

Chickenhawk

Member
Dec 6, 2011
779
I just installed my summer tires today and was thinking about how, in 10 years of doing this twice a year, I have NEVER had to add a single pound of air. Mind you, this was an optimum situation: 10 year ago, they were brand new tires on brand new painted alloy rims, and were rarely driven in moist winter conditions that tend to leech salt-laden moisture through the rims in all those years. In fact, I have had to let some air out. When I rotate tires every year, I run the fronts at 40PSI and the rears at 36PSI. This optimizes traction on the rears (80% to 90% of max PSI) for better neutral handling and a better ride, and decreases max traction slightly on the fronts (on the high side of the traction/PSI curve) to prevent tuck-under in case of high speed swerves in an emergency. Trust me, I am a handling balance and neutral handling jedi.
 
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