Right CV Axle has little play left to right (CV joint to wheel hub)

2002tbva

Original poster
Member
Dec 8, 2011
21
Richmond VA
Hello All,

I have a question which I'm hoping someone can assist me with. While completing some other front end suspension work on my 2002 TB LTZ I noticed that the front right CV axle had a little play in it (about 1/16 -1/8 inch) when moving it left to right (from CV joint to wheel hub) and can autally hear the axle clanking the wheel hub when moving it back and forth. Is this normal? The left side has no play in at all so I'm assuming not. I also had the notorious grease spray from the same CV boot area but didn't have any rips in it so not sure what was could be causing this to happen. Is there a link to the 2?

So.... I bring it into the local GMC dealer to have them look at it especially since this part is covered under my extended warranty. Well then tell me that this is completly normal on most of thier vehicles and was just curious if this is a true statement? I'm ok with the answer either way since it's covered under warranty (if I prove to them that there should be NO play in the movement) and no need to worry if it's actually normal movement.

Can someone please tell me if this is normal or not?

Note: I do not have the CV joint clicking sound when turning so it looks like the CV joint is still good.

Thanks so much
 

The_Roadie

Lifetime VIP Donor
Member
Nov 19, 2011
9,957
Portland, OR
Sounds like the axle nut on the end of the shaft is loose. I don't understand why the dealer didn't instantly look at this. Did they?
 

2002tbva

Original poster
Member
Dec 8, 2011
21
Richmond VA
Hello Roadie - As far as I know they didn't even take the wheel off the truck. I guess they were just trying to figure out what was wrong with the front CV axle to call it in to my extended warranty company (Endurance). They told my extended warranty company that there was grease all over and that there was a rip in the CV boot which caused the grease to shoot all over, but in fact there was no rip or tear anywhere in the boot. I had to tell them this over the phone and then they double checked to confirm, which I was correct. Then I met up with them after work yesterday to go over this in detail and thier lead tech said that there has to be a hole somewhere in the boot to have this grease all over and also stated that the movement in the CV axle was perfectly normal.

FYI - My extended warranty denied the axle replacement due to them stating that there was a rip in the boot which completly a completly wrong statement.

I just can't see a major driveshaft component like this having play in it like I have. I will tighten down to torque specification tomorrow and see what happens. If there is free room to tighten down then this just shows that the dealership does not think outside the box when troubleshoothing issues.

Thanks so much for your time as always !!

Bill in VA
 

The_Roadie

Lifetime VIP Donor
Member
Nov 19, 2011
9,957
Portland, OR
CV boots (especially on trucks just after a lift gets installed) often leak without tearing at the innermost connection to the tripot housing. Grease gets under the metal band that holds it on, it works back and forth, and starts slinging grease out from underneath. The dealer should not have assumed a hole without finding the hole.

You don't even have to take the wheel off to check the CV nut. Just the wheel cover. It's a very obvious 35mm nut.
 

2002tbva

Original poster
Member
Dec 8, 2011
21
Richmond VA
First off.... thanks for your insight on this issue I'm having! I really appreciate the time you and others put into helping others on this site. Big thumbs up !!

Well update to the story. I did check the hub nut and it's set to torque specifications so that wasn't the issue. My issue now is with the extended warranty company since they now declined the replacement of the CV axle since they had a inspector come and look at the CV axle and said that was grease and movement in the axle but was not excessive to consider this part broken or needing replacement. I still don't believe this is the case since my axle has more movement in it than my left axle (which has NO movement at all) so I'm going to try my best to prove that there is excessive movement in the axle and does need replacement. The dealer is actually on my side with this and said that's what extended warranty companies do and they see it all the time. They try proving that a part is not broken and does not need replacement rather than just agreeing with the dealer and just replacing broken parts. I do understand the extended warranty’s side but at the same time I really think there is something wrong and don't trust this axle as this truck is the wife and kids daily driver. If I prove to the extended warranty that this movement is considered excessive as per GM specifications, then they would warrant the replacement so my research work is now in progress. Just wish I has access to GM’s very defined specifications to assist me with my research since I believe this is going to be the only proof they would allow.

I know this is thread is beyond technical now but just wanted to update you since you spend time helping me from the beginning.

Thanks so much again !

-Bill
 

2002tbva

Original poster
Member
Dec 8, 2011
21
Richmond VA
Took a video clip of the movement which is located here --> [video=youtube;R5wikdaJt2k]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R5wikdaJt2k[/video]

I cleaned the grease around the boot area to help me determine if grease is still slinging out so only time will tell. I do understand the functionality of the CV joint in that it's supposed to have play to support the all around movement but my problem is my other CV axle is completely stiff and does not move at all and the grease leads me to believe there is something wrong.

Thanks !
 

The_Roadie

Lifetime VIP Donor
Member
Nov 19, 2011
9,957
Portland, OR
Nice vid! I thought your issue was at the wheel hub because you mentioned it in your first post. That would relate to the outer CV joint. This is looseness in the inner CV joint, where you've already lost grease. Since new ones cost around $60 at Rockauto, and that's probably less than your warranty deductable, I'd just swap it and be done with it. No reason to pay dealer's labor prices or OEM parts price.

Good news is that it doesnt' look like a bad bearing and seal on the splined disconnect unit where the CV shaft goes into on the side of the oil pan. If that went bad, a new assembly, even aftermarket, is $500 and your warranty company would probably find a way to escape paying for that.

If you feel up to swapping CV shafts, here's a How To article: GMTNation - How To: Replace Passenger CV Shaft with pictures

EDIT: Upon watching the video closer, it's definitely a dead splined disconnect. Sorry.
 

Mooseman

Moderator
Dec 4, 2011
25,257
Ottawa, ON
I'm not too sure about the condition of the splined disconnect. Looking at the video in full screen, I can see that the whole body of the joint is moving within the disconnect as if the bearings are shot inside. Or the part of the yoke that rides on the bearings is worn down allowing that play.
 

The_Roadie

Lifetime VIP Donor
Member
Nov 19, 2011
9,957
Portland, OR
Mooseman said:
I'm not too sure about the condition of the splined disconnect.
OMG you're right! I was looking on my phone at first. On a real monitor in full screen mode straight from youtube, it's clear.

You have a dead splined disconnect. The seal died, grit gets in, the bearing dies, and then the inner tripot joint housing wiggles just like that.

Hope it's a covered item. Dealer is DEFINITELY incompetent if they failed to diagnose that. (I'm pretty embarrassed also.:redface:)

For more reading, search for "splined disconnect" and check out this tech article at ORTB: Offroadtb.com Front Axle 4WD Disconnect
 

2002tbva

Original poster
Member
Dec 8, 2011
21
Richmond VA
Wow guys.... Thanks so much for the extra insight here !! I can't believe the dealer didn't even realize this and neither did the inspector who came in to oversee the whole issue even after I showed them what I thought was wrong and even shook the whole axle just like in the video. I knew there was an issue since there is excessive movement in the whole CV shaft unit and also the extra vibration in the steering wheel and the occasional crack/metal sounding thumb from the right hand side of the TB. Would this be the cause of the sounds? Either way I am going to press this hard on both the dealer and the warranty company since I pushed them to reassess this issue and they still came back with, "All looks fine to me". I believe this part is covered since to me it's an internal component of the 4 wheel drive system. I've pasted a screen-print of my covered parts just for your viewing pleasure.

Again... I really thank you guys and appreciate this site !!:thumbsup:

View attachment 30160
 

Attachments

  • EnduranceCoveredParts.jpg
    EnduranceCoveredParts.jpg
    19.7 KB · Views: 16

The_Roadie

Lifetime VIP Donor
Member
Nov 19, 2011
9,957
Portland, OR
No other vehicle has precisely this sort of splined disconnect assembly, but it combines the functions of a center bearing and a locking hub. Take the printout of the ORTB article I posted, and see how they try to skitter out of paying for it.

Many dealer service writers may not know of its existence, but a trained mechanic should. Are you dealing with a service writer or a mechanic at the dealer? GM calls it a bearing assembly.
 

2002tbva

Original poster
Member
Dec 8, 2011
21
Richmond VA
Hey Roadie,

I am currently dealing with the GM main mechanic (who already stated that there is nothing wrong) and also the results of inspector which the warranty company sent out last week. As of Friday of last week I explained to the warranty company that is still believe there is something wrong so they are sending out another inspector tomorrow (Tues 8/13) to diagnose the issue again. I'm glad I have this additional information to provide them so thanks so much.

I will provide them the write up from you and let them decide from there. If you and others are saying it's the bearing assembly then I'm thinking they will know what to look for going forward.

Quick question - Could this be the reason why my 4WD switch knob (the thing you turn to change to A4WD,4HI,4LOW) occasionally blinks when turning on the truck and eventually goes to 2WD or does not even light up? This does not happen often but I have seen this and also replaced the knob which I thought fixed the issue but still happens from time to time.

Either way I'm better off now than before with all the help and support from you guys so thanks again and I'll keep you posted on outcome.

-Bill
 

The_Roadie

Lifetime VIP Donor
Member
Nov 19, 2011
9,957
Portland, OR
A 2002 with those symptoms is probably one of the earliest TCCMs that could need a refreshing or simple replacement. Warranty company probably won't cover electronic control modules if they're just intermittent. Could be an intermittently jammed front axle actuator connected to the splined disconnect, but not in the case of a failure to light up.
 

kawaholic

Member
Sep 9, 2013
106
Looks like you can add me to the dead splined disconnect club. Discovered it while rotating my tires this past weekend... :frown:

I guess 150k is the magic number for when these trucks start falling apart... LOL

Mine has about the same amount of play as the one in the video. The cv joint seems tight but there's definitely a wobble in the tripot where it goes into the disconnect. It appears to have considerably more movement up and down than front to rear. Not sure if that's just because it's easier to grab a hold of it to move it up and down or not.

Anyway, my question, with that much play in the bearings, should I even consider trying to rebuild mine or just get a new one? Unfortunately I can't come up with an extra 500 bucks right now for this, otherwise I'd just replace it.

Is there anything I can do (and still drive the truck) to prevent any further damage?
 

Playsinsnow

Member
Nov 17, 2012
9,727
kawaholic said:
Looks like you can add me to the dead splined disconnect club. Discovered it while rotating my tires this past weekend... :frown:

Is there anything I can do (and still drive the truck) to prevent any further damage?

Mine went out around 90k. I found an ATP on ebay for 360ish shipped 3years ago. Seller repacked it with a "superior" grease and I added a little myself. I drove about 10k miles before replacing it. Still using stock actuator too. I wouldn't sweat anything unless there is a larger underlying problem that caused it to fail.
 

Sparky

Member
Dec 4, 2011
12,927
kawaholic said:
Looks like you can add me to the dead splined disconnect club. Discovered it while rotating my tires this past weekend... :frown:

I guess 150k is the magic number for when these trucks start falling apart... LOL

Mine has about the same amount of play as the one in the video. The cv joint seems tight but there's definitely a wobble in the tripot where it goes into the disconnect. It appears to have considerably more movement up and down than front to rear. Not sure if that's just because it's easier to grab a hold of it to move it up and down or not.

Anyway, my question, with that much play in the bearings, should I even consider trying to rebuild mine or just get a new one? Unfortunately I can't come up with an extra 500 bucks right now for this, otherwise I'd just replace it.

Is there anything I can do (and still drive the truck) to prevent any further damage?

My truck has 188k and still going strong :biggrin: Though I had to rebuild the disconnect a while ago.

It can always be rebuilt unless the housing itself has gotten torn up. But that would require some really excessive wear for it to have gone that far. Mine was pretty darn floppy when I found it was bad but the housing was OK. Well, it was until I busted it :redface: The vast majority of cases they are rebuildable.
 

kawaholic

Member
Sep 9, 2013
106
the roadie said:
I see the ATP 111001 Front Axle Disconnect on Amazon now for $318. No real safe way to bypass the problem bearing.

Thanks, yeah, I didn't think so. You mean I can't just pull the shaft, find something to plug the hole and run without for the time being? :biggrin:

Not sure I really want to know the answer but I'll ask anyway...LOL... I'm just curious if there's a tube in the oil pan where the shaft passes through?

Actually saw one listed on amazon for 314.

I'd actually prefer to just rebuild mine, I'm just worried about opening it up and finding out I need more than bearings and seals. It does still engage 4 wheel drive though (if that matters). Are there any statistics for how often the bearing surface of the gears are wiped out? I'm guessing my fork is ok being that 4x4 still works but if I need gears along with bearings and seals, I'll be about 2/3 of the price of the new unit. Then there's still the risk of breaking mine trying to remove it...:crazy:
 

kawaholic

Member
Sep 9, 2013
106
Playsinsnow said:
Mine went out around 90k. I found an ATP on ebay for 360ish shipped 3years ago. Seller repacked it with a "superior" grease and I added a little myself. I drove about 10k miles before replacing it. Still using stock actuator too. I wouldn't sweat anything unless there is a larger underlying problem that caused it to fail.

So you're saying you drove about 10k with it wobbling like the one in the vid?
 

Sparky

Member
Dec 4, 2011
12,927
kawaholic said:
Thanks, yeah, I didn't think so. You mean I can't just pull the shaft, find something to plug the hole and run without for the time being? :biggrin:

Not sure I really want to know the answer but I'll ask anyway...LOL... I'm just curious if there's a tube in the oil pan where the shaft passes through?

Actually saw one listed on amazon for 314.

I'd actually prefer to just rebuild mine, I'm just worried about opening it up and finding out I need more than bearings and seals. It does still engage 4 wheel drive though (if that matters). Are there any statistics for how often the bearing surface of the gears are wiped out? I'm guessing my fork is ok being that 4x4 still works but if I need gears along with bearings and seals, I'll be about 2/3 of the price of the new unit. Then there's still the risk of breaking mine trying to remove it...:crazy:

You could pull the shaft and stick a gatorade cap in the seal to plug the hole.

There is a tube through the pan. The intermediate shaft is separated from the motor oil.

It is good the 4x4 still engages because that means the fork and collar are at least still operational and probably reusable.

The gears rarely need replaced, however if you found out you do need to I do have a spare set (Spare gears, fork, and collar).
 

kawaholic

Member
Sep 9, 2013
106
Sparky said:
My truck has 188k and still going strong :biggrin:
You know after making a statement like that, you should probably just drive it to the scrap yard now, while you still can, to avoid the towing bill to get it there...:raspberry: :biggrin:

Sparky said:
It can always be rebuilt unless the housing itself has gotten torn up. But that would require some really excessive wear for it to have gone that far. Mine was pretty darn floppy when I found it was bad but the housing was OK. Well, it was until I busted it :redface: The vast majority of cases they are rebuildable.

I stumbled across your post today in one of the threads on the subject. Saw the pic you posted and the one from the op in the thread and wanted to :puke:

Still leaning towards rebuilding mine. How did the gears look on yours? Where are y'all buying the parts to rebuild these things?
 

kawaholic

Member
Sep 9, 2013
106
Sparky said:
You could pull the shaft and stick a gatorade cap in the seal to plug the hole.

There is a tube through the pan. The intermediate shaft is separated from the motor oil.

It is good the 4x4 still engages because that means the fork and collar are at least still operational and probably reusable.

The gears rarely need replaced, however if you found out you do need to I do have a spare set (Spare gears, fork, and collar).

Good to know. I'll keep that in mind.
 

Sparky

Member
Dec 4, 2011
12,927
kawaholic said:
You know after making a statement like that, you should probably just drive it to the scrap yard now, while you still can, to avoid the towing bill to get it there...:raspberry: :biggrin:



I stumbled across your post today in one of the threads on the subject. Saw the pic you posted and the one from the op in the thread and wanted to :puke:

Still leaning towards rebuilding mine. How did the gears look on yours? Where are y'all buying the parts to rebuild these things?

The gears looked fine on mine, that's why I have a spare set from the junkyard disconnect I bought to scavenge the housing from.

I bought my pieces from GM parts direct, but I think there are a few other online dealer parts places that are preferred now.
 

kawaholic

Member
Sep 9, 2013
106
Sparky said:
The gears looked fine on mine, that's why I have a spare set from the junkyard disconnect I bought to scavenge the housing from.
There are a couple you pull it yards not too far from me, I may go check to see if they've got any. I wouldn't mind having some spare parts on hand before I dive in, IF they don't try to bend me over. The junk yards down here seem to be hit or miss on whether you can find a good deal or not. What really sucks is the larger of the two yards is pretty shitty about keeping inventory on what comes in and goes out. They make you buy a two or three dollar insurance policy just to go in and walk the yard. I remember when I lived in NY you could ALWAYS find some smoking deals at the junk yard. How much did the junkyard charge you up there?

Sparky said:
I bought my pieces from GM parts direct, but I think there are a few other online dealer parts places that are preferred now.

GM parts direct has the bearings at $5.93 each, the inner seal at $10.78 and the outer seal at $8.22. Shipping, processing and handling is $19.72 :eek: for a grand total of $56.51. On top of that they're going to charge me 7.75% sales tax (are they in NC?) and it looks like the parts are special order.

parts4chevys/GM parts shop has them listed at $6.68 each, $15.74 and $9.26 plus $11.50 shipping and handling for a grand total of $56.54.

GM parts giant has them for $6.76 each, $12.44 and $9.48 plus $11.84 shipping and handling for a grand total of $54.04.

I need to call GM parts giant and GM parts shop to see if either of them have the parts in stock.
 

Sparky

Member
Dec 4, 2011
12,927
Around 60 bucks total sounds right. Pretty sure that's what it cost me.
 

The_Roadie

Lifetime VIP Donor
Member
Nov 19, 2011
9,957
Portland, OR
kawaholic said:
GM parts direct has the bearings at $5.93 each, the inner seal at $10.78 and the outer seal at $8.22. Shipping, processing and handling is $19.72 :eek: for a grand total of $56.51. On top of that they're going to charge me 7.75% sales tax (are they in NC?) and it looks like the parts are special order.

parts4chevys/GM parts shop has them listed at $6.68 each, $15.74 and $9.26 plus $11.50 shipping and handling for a grand total of $56.54.
Exactly why I prefer to patronize the more honest business model of parts4chevys.com. The other guys are like the blank dvd sellers who cheat Ebay (there must be other products in the same situation) where they'll sell you 1000 disks for $20, but shipping is $100. Bite me, shipping gougers. Shun them. :hissyfit:
 

Forum Statistics

Threads
23,273
Posts
637,489
Members
18,472
Latest member
MissCrutcher